General DC Comics Discussion Thread

[Robo432343]

No.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

anti monitor is a 6 dimensional being but has High 1-C AP?
in a vs match, we don't treat him as an 11 dimensional or anything, just 11D attack potency right?

That’s because him being 6D isn’t referring to spatial dimensions.

 

[Robo432343]

That’s because him being 6D isn’t referring to spatial dimensions.

he would still be a higher dimensional being to regular humans right?

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

he would still be a higher dimensional being to regular humans right?

Yes.

 

[Deagonx]

For the record, while #50 of Swamp Thing shows the light in heaven, ST refers to god in #75 as that something which is beyond thought, beyond dualities, showing "god" as completely above the conflict of light and dark.

It turns out Alan Moore didn't write #75. Not saying that makes the info invalid at all, but that would likely explain the discrepancy.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

It’s in reference to his work. Though, Alan Moore doesn’t have a cosmology per se within the split. So, it wouldn’t really matter to those who use that or not, but the information isn’t really contradicted and most likely depict a composite Godhead.

 

[Deagonx]

As for Watters depiction clearly entails that Lucifer was “created” to be the shadow to God’s light to give him an identity. We see he doesn’t need Lucifer rather he just needed an opposition to define him as a “being.”

The point here is that Watters run depicts the Great Darkness as the opposite of the "Light."

And you haven't addressed the fact that the "Light" is in Heaven, which is the most direct evidence that the Light is meant to be understood as the Presence.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

And you haven't addressed the fact that the "Light" is in Heaven, which is the most direct evidence that the Light is meant to be understood as the Presence.

The Lucifer story is its own thing and for good reasons.

As for your point on the “Light” being the Presence then what would we make of it prior to the Light? The Presence couldn’t have created himself to repent something dualistic when its nature is meant to be beyond opposite and all dualities. An aspect of God/Presence lives in Heaven as his Omnipresence permeates all of Creation. There never is one point where we see the true nature of the Presence other than physical manifestations it takes up that we would refer to as lesser aspect of its truer self.

I thought his was obvious since it’s been made clear several times, the Presence worms through aspect within his Creation which includes Angels and Heaven. Even Elaine with the Dunamis Demiurgos cannot comprehend his true self.

 

[Deagonx]

I don't follow. You're saying that the Light is not the Presence and is unrelated to the Presence. What is your explanation for the Light being in Heaven?

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

I don't follow. You're saying that the Light is not the Presence and is unrelated to the Presence. What is your explanation for the Light being in Heaven?

I never said it wasn’t the Presence in that manner. What I said is the Light is an aspect of the Presence and a part of it as is the Voice, the Word, and multitude of aspect it takes for his creation to comprehend its infinite nature.

So, the Light of Creation as I would make it was created by the Presence in the absolute nothing which became the Great Darkness after creating the Light that would contrast the Darkness. Like how Scott depicts the Presence being the direct manifestation of the Presence in the physical reality when it needs to be made or rebooted.

 

[Deagonx]

I never said it wasn’t the Presence in that manner. What I said is the Light is an aspect of the Presence and a part of it as is the Voice, the Word, and multitude of aspect it takes for his creation to comprehend its infinite nature.

If your whole point this time was that the Light is an aspect of the Presence, then I don't think we have any significant disagreement.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

If your whole point this time was that the Light is an aspect of the Presence, then I don't think we have any significant disagreement.

Yes, and an aspect of God is still God but I think differentiating them not as separate beings but in terms of power is what I think is coherent. If we scale the Light to the Darkness then the Presence > Darkness = Light.

My problem is that it gives this wrong sense of impression when it comes to the Presence. We’ve seen in Swamp Thing mentioned by John that it knew the Cult would rise the Great Darkness and it already anticipated the coming of it. Given the context of #75 of Swamp Thing, I think it’s clear the Presence true self is beyond any duality and opposite and it could fully well stop the Darkness, buts its aspect the “Light” in Heaven made a truce to form a unity which was planned from the get-go by it.

Either way, this is a sore topic and I’ll leave it at that.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

It turns out Alan Moore didn't write #75. Not saying that makes the info invalid at all, but that would likely explain the discrepancy.

Rick Veitch worked closely with Moore throughout his entire run.

Edit: In fact, I just checked #50. Veitch is among the credits for the issue. So there's really not a discrepancy there, Williamson simply did not understand the story/introduced stuff not truly alluded to.

 

[Arceus0x]

Idk if I can ask this here but why is Amazo just 5-B? Didn't he neg solar system busting rockets? And the whole thing with Amazo 2 nuking an entire multiverse? I jusst looked around the pages and saw nothing related to this. What's up with that?

 

[ProfectusInfinity]

I'm wondering if I could get brief input on something.

So I took a glance at John Constantine's profile, and I noticed these were his AP justifications:

Building level (Cut off the head of one vampire then fought and killed some more, with vampires being strong enough to throw cars[1]. Those vampires had their strength increased by Cain, and were able to restrain and threaten Batgirl albeit in a group. Should be comparable to his durability), up to at least Solar System level (Hurt I, Vampire, who stomped Apollo[41]. Madame Xanadu does not have the power to contrast John's magic[1]. Was considered to be among the five magicians on Earth who could contribute to a powerful spell meant to save the Earth, implying him to be at least somewhat comparable to Dr. Fate and Zatanna, though he is certainly weaker than either of them[72]. Hurt Frankenstein and Black Orchid with a magic attack[50]), possibly higher (Knows a spell "powerful enough to kill a god", who he believed might stop The Upside-Down Man, though it ultimately failed to scratch him. Still, it should be much stronger than any other attack of his[73]) with magic

Am I the only one who doesn't think he should have a possibly higher rating? I thought we usually use higher to indicate AP's ridiculously above the tier baseline, often to the point of reaching higher tiers. If the scans and justifications both admit that John's god-killing spell didn't so much as lay a scratch on UDM, what's the basis for assuming that the spell could so much as possibly put John above the baseline with his magic? I don't see how that feat's quantifiable enough to extrapolate to higher tiers or ratings above the baseline, given the spell's only feat is a glaring anti-feat against its fundamental description.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

Am I the only one who doesn't think he should have a possibly higher rating? I thought we usually use higher to indicate AP's ridiculously above the tier baseline, often to the point of reaching higher tiers. If the scans and justifications both admit that John's god-killing spell didn't so much as lay a scratch on UDM, what's the basis for assuming that the spell could so much as possibly put John above the baseline with his magic? I don't see how that feat's quantifiable enough to extrapolate to higher tiers or ratings above the baseline, given the spell's only feat is a glaring anti-feat against its fundamental description.

I guess that direct spell shouldn’t be indicative of him getting a “possibly higher” part unless we have concrete evidence. So yeah, it’s pretty pointless.

 

[Deagonx]

Rick Veitch worked closely with Moore throughout his entire run.

Edit: In fact, I just checked #50. Veitch is among the credits for the issue. So there's really not a discrepancy there, Williamson simply did not understand the story/introduced stuff not truly alluded to.

It could've been ignorance (Williamson not being familiar with the full run) but it also may have been intentional. He was combining several different cosmologies at once. The Great Darkness predating the Overvoid is also not really representative if Morrison's take on it, of course.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

It could've been ignorance (Williamson not being familiar with the full run) but it also may have been intentional. He was combining several different cosmologies at once. The Great Darkness predating the Overvoid is also not really representative if Morrison's take on it, of course.

I brought this logic long ago and why Morrison Cosmology should just be a separate thing.

I’m very sure that Williamson didn’t know about this. It’s evident since everyone refers to the battle between duality but never who exists beyond both. You’ll rarely see people talk about this being, if ever like the Smile Behind the Universe.

 

[NHTkenshin2]

why don't we just split williamson again please

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

I, honestly believe that each author could have their own solo Cosmology page. Williamson and Snyder/Tynion isn’t so bad but there still are difference that can warrant it. However, the gap of logic between Morrison and Snyder/Tynion IV almost guarantee it should. Realistically, only characters like the Monitors make it between both despite having difference origin, power, and hierarchy.

Vertigo and J.M. DeMatteis obviously should be solo. Though, Vertigo shouldn’t just be limited to Gaiman and Carey.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

It could've been ignorance (Williamson not being familiar with the full run)

Wouldn't surprise me. Not many people read beyond Moore's time, most jump to Morrison/Miller's take (that actively contradict in many respects all past writers, incidentally). A shame, because Veitch is just as good if not better than Moore (at least expanding and contextualizing his ideas; #75 is a special highlight in that sense).

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

Spectre by Doug Moench stated that Spectre had the power to stop the war between realms which is referring to the war between the Light and Dark, if he had used his powers powerly assigned by the Presence who watched and was disappointed in him when he didn’t.

The Presence can scale to anyone including Light and Darkness as mere duality to his greater form. While, not everything including the Light should scale to it.

 

[Elizio33]

why don't we just split williamson again please

Because Williamson's Infinite Frontier and Dark Crisis are a direct continuity not only with Morrison's Multiversity and Snyder's Death Metal stories, but also with Marv Wolfman's Crisis on Infinite Earths. The differences, while present, were considered small enough to be included, what we learned in Dark Crisis: The Deadly Green is what undid some notable contradictions between Snyder's stories and Williamson's a year later with The Great Darkness. It is true that Morrison's Overvoid was retconned as "Light", but most of the elements of the original depiction of the Overvoid came from Morrison's interviews... From the comics, the Overvoid has been a non-dual sentient void from which the multiverse was born. The fact that the Overvoid was considered God was mainly Morrison's own words from his interviews as such an idea was not mentioned in the comics, apart from the Monitors.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

Because Williamson's Infinite Frontier and Dark Crisis are a direct continuity not only with Morrison's Multiversity and Snyder's Death Metal stories, but also with Marv Wolfman's Crisis on Infinite Earths. The differences, while present, were considered small enough to be included, what we learned in Dark Crisis: The Deadly Green is what undid some notable contradictions between Snyder's stories and Williamson's a year later with The Great Darkness. It is true that Morrison's Overvoid was retconned as "Light", but most of the elements of the original depiction of the Overvoid came from Morrison's interviews... From the comics, the Overvoid has been a non-dual sentient void from which the multiverse was born. The fact that the Overvoid was considered God was mainly Morrison's own words from his interviews as such an idea was not mentioned in the comics, apart from the Monitors.

This is pretty untrue. The Overvoid being this ultimate supreme oneness wasn’t mentioned in the comics. However, its idea that it is God as well as being the non-dual Void, however was in the comics.

Dark Crisis and Infinite Frontier being a continuation of the stories doesn’t at all elude to anything. It certainly ties in with Snyder since Williamson worked with him in a couple of comics but the difference to Morrison is quite substantial.

 

[Deagonx]

Elizio is right. Williamson isn't a situation like DeMatteis where he's just doing his own thing independent of other authors. He's directly building upon what came before and referencing it frequently. Some things may have changed, but, it's undeniably a continuation.

 

[NHTkenshin2]

I mean, DeMatteis also did lol, he collaborated with Morrison on one occasion, even.

 

[Deagonx]

That's not really what I'm getting at. I'm referring to his cosmology, I'm not saying he never worked with another author on anything. His cosmology doesn't reference or incorporate the works of other authors. There's no Endless, no Monitor, etc. I feel like this is pretty obvious given the context of the discussion.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

Elizio is right. Williamson isn't a situation like DeMatteis where he's just doing his own thing independent of other authors. He's directly building upon what came before and referencing it frequently. Some things may have changed, but, it's undeniably a continuation.

This shouldn’t be some sort of arbitrary rule about “building upon previous work.” All that entails is that more like be added based on the author in charge that will contradicts information that was introduced by the previous author.

As such the understanding of the Overvoid and Monitors were pretty pin point clear and established in Morrison cosmology which was then changed in Snyder. If this was the rule that we were going off from then there shouldn’t be a split at all. If so, then why are we nit picking what works and does not. Your example of Matteis can be counterintuitive since he also introduce previous known notion about characters established from previous others especially when he took over Justice League Dark. Mike Carey logic also seems a bit flaud when comparing it to Gaiman who does not reference Jin En Moks, Basanos, or the important beings that should have made a difference. He doesn’t even call “God” Yahweh nor reference his departure despite being a collaborator of Carey.

 

[Deagonx]

Everything is always changing. We can't create a cosmology split for every individual snapshot of the cosmology when a change is made. The split was based on self-contained continuities where the sole basis for considering characters or events as connected is that they were printed by DC, rather than using the same characters or even concepts. That's why Pralaya and Perpetua and Mother Night do not scale to each other.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

“Self-contained continuity” is such a vague and baseless word in the context of what should be consider viable or not. You might as well as common sense and analogs to that as well. We can consider Night as “darkness” but the idea of “darkness” would still be present across different cosmologies, just with different names while the inherent nature of said beings are almost the same. If splitting cosmology was based on “almost the same but still different” then we’re basically nitpicking semantics behind what makes one author not compatible with another.

 

[Deagonx]

You might as well as common sense and analogs to that as well. We can consider Night as “darkness” but the idea of “darkness” would still be present across different cosmologies, just with different names while the inherent nature of said beings are almost the same.

These beings have something in common, certainly, but having elements in common doesn't mean they're the same character. Superman and Sentry have a lot in common, but it would be silly to regard them as "different names for beings with the same inherent nature."

These cosmological characters were written by different people, used in different storylines that didn't overlap with each other, and have different characterizations and features. Pralaya is not the mother of the Endless. Trying to force her into a cosmology that involves them just to say it's all the same thing isn't productive or accurate.

If splitting cosmology was based on “almost the same but still different” then we’re basically nitpicking semantics behind what makes one author not compatible with another.

It's not, it's based on continuity. There's clear continuity from Morrison to Snyder to Williamson. There is not continuity between Carey and Morrison.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

These beings have something in common, certainly, but having elements in common doesn't mean they're the same character. Superman and Sentry have a lot in common, but it would be silly to regard them as "different names for beings with the same inherent nature."

That wasn’t the point. I was making an example of arguing for what “specifics” is being entailed to propose that one can’t work with the other. This was a response to your notion of why Perpetua, Pralaya, and Night can’t work because each one was created in a different story that does not connect the three together. My point was where is the line being drawn with the three?

These cosmological characters were written by different people, used in different storylines that didn't overlap with each other, and have different characterizations and features. Pralaya is not the mother of the Endless. Trying to force her into a cosmology that involves them just to say it's all the same thing isn't productive or accurate.

It needn’t be accurate since every story changes an element. This honestly is just superstitious since no other work of fiction seems to be receiving the treatment DC is having and that’s not mentioning VSBW is special for the only one doing it.

The point is we’re just kind of picking apart things because they don’t seem to overlap in continuity. However, a better point would be asking where and when does that matter really when talking something with a long history. I mean we’re only taking a small amount of authors most current takes on this yet we should include the time the authors do reference events from other authors which has been mentioned multiple times. Things like Pre-Crisis and its continuity should link with story that work in conjunction to each other and Vertigo was never completely separate. It’s usually only individual creators for some runs like solo series that seems to indicate a difference that matters enough for a split.

It's not, it's based on continuity. There's clear continuity from Morrison to Snyder to Williamson. There is not continuity between Carey and Morrison.

What? A continuity does mean it’s works with something. Obviously, Morrison and Carey can’t work. However, Morrison works seems to heavily focus on what he believe and think and that point would be made useless when Snyder starts introducing things that would have never been during Morrison time. Where’s the line being drawn here? A continuation shouldn’t be the basis, if not at all.

Honestly, discussing this is a turn off and I’ll leave it at that. I’ll be frank, I am not against the split but there’s so many issues with it that saying the split works better than composite shouldn't be a shared sentiment because there both inaccurate in many ways and flawed. I won’t discredit the hard work put into the split but it’s flawed and not any better.

 

[Deagonx]

My point was where is the line being drawn with the three?

They are being separated because they have no overlap, and operate within three completely different frameworks for how the cosmology works.

What? A continuity does mean it’s works with something. Obviously, Morrison and Carey can’t work. However, Morrison works seems to heavily focus on what he believe and think and that point would be made useless when Snyder starts introducing things that would have never been during Morrison time. Where’s the line being drawn here? A continuation shouldn’t be the basis, if not at all.

The very definition of "continuity" is continuation, saying that continuation shouldn't be the basis for continuity doesn't make sense.

I won’t discredit the hard work put into the split but it’s flawed and not any better.

Well we certainly disagree. Everything has its flaws, but the split is a huge improvement and is based on very sensible distinctions between the cosmologies. Most of the sour grapes are about how it affects scaling, I don't believe the criticisms of its foundation carry much weight.

 

[Elizio33]

I agree with @Deagonx on this.

 

[Hirotoswnn1x]

Does dc/vertigo have 1-A / High1-A or 0? divine presence= High1-A?

 

[Deleted member 30746]

Does dc/vertigo have 1-A / High1-A or 0? divine presence= High1-A?

Night, Time, Archangels, and Endless will most likely be High 1-A. What Ultima thinks of Yahweh is important. Accordingly, it may be 0. Divine Presence will be 0.

 

[Deleted member 30746]

And of course, the characters that will be High 1-A will not be limited to these.

 

[Hirotoswnn1x]

Night, Time, Archangels, and Endless will most likely be High 1-A. What Ultima thinks of Yahweh is important. Accordingly, it may be 0. Divine Presence will be 0.

Why are their high 1-A and 0 scans above Qaulitive superiority from the comics?

 

[Deleted member 30746]

Why are their high 1-A and 0 scans above Qaulitive superiority from the comics?

sorry, what?

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

should superman get infinite lifting strength for holding the book of infinite pages

Controversial.