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There isn't.
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General DC Comics Discussion Thread
- Thread starter Confluctor
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- dc comics
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Extraordinary or perhaps Supergenius.
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So, are we not going to talk about Darkseid folding (younger) Prime Earth Superman, (younger) Prime Earth Batman and the Kingdom Come versions of Superman, Batman, Flash, Wonder Woman, Alan Scott, and Captain Marvel?
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I'll take a look and gather back some information.
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Said Prime Earth Superman was a much younger and weaker Superman and was likely fatigued from previously battling Gog and getting jumped by several heroes.
KC Superman... Well let's just say he might be a lot lower on the scaling chain once we're done with his scaling revisions oof.
IdiosyncraticLawyer
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DC Comics: Reviewing Exotic Haxes
Minor-major CRT, I thought I'd review all the high-end haxes DC characters have after seeing a lot of unjustified ones. Acausality Chrysalis (Eternity Girl) has Type 1 and Type 4 Acausality with the following justification: "Has seemingly broke free of the narrative itself, managing to exist...
Excellence616
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A very little revision of Doctor Manhattan
From Doctor Manhattan's profile: High Complex Multiverse level with powers (The Justice League with his powers stalemated Perpetua in a clash which burned out the Sun with Lex Luthor saying Wonder Woman would have won if she hadn't hesitated) Although this is very good, there should be a...
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So, reading In the Name of Gog again and.....I have a controversial take.
I think Gog scales to the Galaxy level version of Superman for killing Superman and harming him and Superboy and blah blah blah but not the low multiverse version since a serious Superman oneshots him at the end of the story.
I think Gog scales to the Galaxy level version of Superman for killing Superman and harming him and Superboy and blah blah blah but not the low multiverse version since a serious Superman oneshots him at the end of the story.
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I agree he shouldn't scale to a full power Superman, considering he's weakened earlier in the arc by fighting Apokolips' army, and could even hurt him after being weakened by Kryptonite (AC 816). In a later arc, even a Superman said to be on his weakest day (AC 824) could overpower multiple Gogs at once (AC 825). Despite common belief, these Gogs aren't weaker clones or anything, but the same Gog at different points in time, like being Gog from five hours in the future.
With that being said, Gog should probably be tier 2 or so, considering he overpowered KC Superman, Power Girl, Jay Garrick, and Alan Scott in Justice Society of America #14 and #15. I think he also fought Infinity Man during that run too, so just being 3-C seems low.
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Probably either not updated or some sort of mistake that has not been changed.
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We haven't updated all the pages yet
Excellence616
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Beyond-Dimensional Existence type 2 for the Hands (DC Comics)
The purpose of this thread is as the name suggests: The Source Wall is said to be the limit to thoughts and beyond lies only Monitor-Mind, The Source and the Unknowable. The Hands exist outside the Source Wall and live in a place believed to be at the end of the void, outside space and time...
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Quick question, but on what timeline/multiverse would the movies/shows like DCU, DCUAMU (flashpoint up to the house of mysteries with Constantine) etc. be? cus there was that new movie crisis on infinite earths and so on.
Trying to see what goes where is giving me a headache so a little help would be appreciated.
Trying to see what goes where is giving me a headache so a little help would be appreciated.
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if Dr Manhattan is far superior to mxy's powers then shouldn't he have the same abilities as him at a far higher level?
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no it does not work like that.
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I was doing some research for a video and came across this from 2022. Wanted to debunk this.
There are a few objective problems with this statement from Deagon.
The first, that the entire next 50 posts totally ignored that Morrison here directly explains what the Cosmic Armor Superman is. It is the Multiverse, it is the Flaw, it is existence, and it is also a big ol' machine metaphor. The big story piloted by Superman was the Cosmic Armor. It is also not the first time DC references the entire Orrery as a workable machine.
The next problem is the oversight of context and chucking it right out the window. Grant's context of the Orrery during Final Crisis was meta. The Orrery of Worlds includes every other franchise and the Orrery is a reference to Stories on a meta level, as Grant repeatedly explains the reasoning for the comic is to showcase the lines between the real world and the realm of fictional space. Grant calls Fictional Space Plane Time. And our world as Cube Time. Grant then goes to extremely lengths to repeat that nothing from Fictional 2D Plane Time can go to 3D Plane time, otherwise, it would not be real. Here are some video links from Grant explaining this.
These interviews and more are from the SuperGods Interview series, which was about a book that Grant wrote some time ago where he explains that he was taken by abstract entities that he later wrote into the comic series as the Nil Monitors:
This was also shown in the guidebook as a place with a barrier around it that no fictional property can escape from. The following marks on this snapshot are not mine, they are Grants from the Multiversity Guidebook.
We are told, many times, that Grant's version of this is not the same as other authors version of the Orrery and Bleed. The Bleed contains all the other franchises and Grant goes to explicite length to denote repeatedly that they are not analogues.
So, Deagon and friends, when you say the Presence is the Overvoid, that is actually debunked directly by the author here in this series. This is not true for Scott Snyder's revision series from Metal to the end of Dark Crisis. That is a different canon and you can say whatever you want about it. For Grant's though (FC to Multiversity) you cannot say this.
The reason is beacuse this author has gone to such absurd lengths to make reasers understand that DC Comics is next to all the other franchises in the Orrery.
Grant has explained this so many times that I don't understand why others do not protest against any counter-statements to this objective data that other users try to make.
Grant here in this interview explains how this story is about how the lines between the IRL world and the realm of all Fictional Spaces are both related to each other.
The Presence is from the DC comics and Vertigo section of the Orrery, and NOT from Marvel, or Archie, or any other section of the Orrery. The Presence is a DC Comics GOD that we clearly see is not the ultimate god of the Sea of Brahma in the Vertigo 2000 series.
So to say the Presence from DC > Every single god ever and even one as a reference to something exterior the fictive plane, is silly and just flat out debunked.
Scalers understand that Aslan from Narnia is in context, explained by the author to be Jesus essentially having a vacation in a book series. Not that Aslan is like Jesus, but that Aslan literally is Jesus from a nonfictional context invading and playing inside of a book fictional space.
The same for Eru Illuvitar, as the author explains the context is nonfictional Yahweh's earlier creation before ours here on this world. Before Lucifer, before our world, LoTR took place on our Earth in context.
The same applies to the Overvoid, a nonfictional reference to the Ain Soph of the Kabbalah and also the Hinduist Voidist viewpoint called the Ain/Ein.
So to say the DC Comics/Vertigo Comics character made of ink and story, which is not the ultimate God of Bleedspace in Grants version, nor was the ultimate god in the Veritgo series, is actually the same entity as what is outside of the fictive plane that oversights all fictional franchise and spaces, is silly and nonsensical.
The Presence of DC Comics is not the Overvoid of the Morrison series, because the Presence is made manifest inside of the DC continuum. And so is the Hand of the Source. Yet, Grant also tells us many times the Overvoid as the Source is far beyond the 2d Plane.
I know this post was made in 2022 but lately, I've seen more users referencing the same debunked notions in this original statement I copied in the beginning of this thread. That is misinformation. It is also debunked directly by the author statements, and also because it is misinformation, others don't read the scans in question and are not made aware that the author confirms the context of what the Source really is, multiple times, what the CAS is, multiple times, and what the Presence is in relation to the Orrery of worlds is, multiple times.
There are a few objective problems with this statement from Deagon.
The first, that the entire next 50 posts totally ignored that Morrison here directly explains what the Cosmic Armor Superman is. It is the Multiverse, it is the Flaw, it is existence, and it is also a big ol' machine metaphor. The big story piloted by Superman was the Cosmic Armor. It is also not the first time DC references the entire Orrery as a workable machine.
The next problem is the oversight of context and chucking it right out the window. Grant's context of the Orrery during Final Crisis was meta. The Orrery of Worlds includes every other franchise and the Orrery is a reference to Stories on a meta level, as Grant repeatedly explains the reasoning for the comic is to showcase the lines between the real world and the realm of fictional space. Grant calls Fictional Space Plane Time. And our world as Cube Time. Grant then goes to extremely lengths to repeat that nothing from Fictional 2D Plane Time can go to 3D Plane time, otherwise, it would not be real. Here are some video links from Grant explaining this.
These interviews and more are from the SuperGods Interview series, which was about a book that Grant wrote some time ago where he explains that he was taken by abstract entities that he later wrote into the comic series as the Nil Monitors:
This was also shown in the guidebook as a place with a barrier around it that no fictional property can escape from. The following marks on this snapshot are not mine, they are Grants from the Multiversity Guidebook.
We are told, many times, that Grant's version of this is not the same as other authors version of the Orrery and Bleed. The Bleed contains all the other franchises and Grant goes to explicite length to denote repeatedly that they are not analogues.
So, Deagon and friends, when you say the Presence is the Overvoid, that is actually debunked directly by the author here in this series. This is not true for Scott Snyder's revision series from Metal to the end of Dark Crisis. That is a different canon and you can say whatever you want about it. For Grant's though (FC to Multiversity) you cannot say this.
The reason is beacuse this author has gone to such absurd lengths to make reasers understand that DC Comics is next to all the other franchises in the Orrery.
Grant has explained this so many times that I don't understand why others do not protest against any counter-statements to this objective data that other users try to make.
Grant here in this interview explains how this story is about how the lines between the IRL world and the realm of all Fictional Spaces are both related to each other.
The Presence is from the DC comics and Vertigo section of the Orrery, and NOT from Marvel, or Archie, or any other section of the Orrery. The Presence is a DC Comics GOD that we clearly see is not the ultimate god of the Sea of Brahma in the Vertigo 2000 series.
So to say the Presence from DC > Every single god ever and even one as a reference to something exterior the fictive plane, is silly and just flat out debunked.
Scalers understand that Aslan from Narnia is in context, explained by the author to be Jesus essentially having a vacation in a book series. Not that Aslan is like Jesus, but that Aslan literally is Jesus from a nonfictional context invading and playing inside of a book fictional space.
The same for Eru Illuvitar, as the author explains the context is nonfictional Yahweh's earlier creation before ours here on this world. Before Lucifer, before our world, LoTR took place on our Earth in context.
The same applies to the Overvoid, a nonfictional reference to the Ain Soph of the Kabbalah and also the Hinduist Voidist viewpoint called the Ain/Ein.
So to say the DC Comics/Vertigo Comics character made of ink and story, which is not the ultimate God of Bleedspace in Grants version, nor was the ultimate god in the Veritgo series, is actually the same entity as what is outside of the fictive plane that oversights all fictional franchise and spaces, is silly and nonsensical.
The Presence of DC Comics is not the Overvoid of the Morrison series, because the Presence is made manifest inside of the DC continuum. And so is the Hand of the Source. Yet, Grant also tells us many times the Overvoid as the Source is far beyond the 2d Plane.
I know this post was made in 2022 but lately, I've seen more users referencing the same debunked notions in this original statement I copied in the beginning of this thread. That is misinformation. It is also debunked directly by the author statements, and also because it is misinformation, others don't read the scans in question and are not made aware that the author confirms the context of what the Source really is, multiple times, what the CAS is, multiple times, and what the Presence is in relation to the Orrery of worlds is, multiple times.
IdiosyncraticLawyer
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I was doing some research for a video and came across this from 2022. Wanted to debunk this.
There are a few objective problems with this statement from Deagon.
The first, that the entire next 50 posts totally ignored that Morrison here directly explains what the Cosmic Armor Superman is. It is the Multiverse, it is the Flaw, it is existence, and it is also a big ol' machine metaphor. The big story piloted by Superman was the Cosmic Armor. It is also not the first time DC references the entire Orrery as a workable machine.
The next problem is the oversight of context and chucking it right out the window. Grant's context of the Orrery during Final Crisis was meta. The Orrery of Worlds includes every other franchise and the Orrery is a reference to Stories on a meta level, as Grant repeatedly explains the reasoning for the comic is to showcase the lines between the real world and the realm of fictional space. Grant calls Fictional Space Plane Time. And our world as Cube Time. Grant then goes to extremely lengths to repeat that nothing from Fictional 2D Plane Time can go to 3D Plane time, otherwise, it would not be real. Here are some video links from Grant explaining this.
These interviews and more are from the SuperGods Interview series, which was about a book that Grant wrote some time ago where he explains that he was taken by abstract entities that he later wrote into the comic series as the Nil Monitors:
This was also shown in the guidebook as a place with a barrier around it that no fictional property can escape from. The following marks on this snapshot are not mine, they are Grants from the Multiversity Guidebook.
We are told, many times, that Grant's version of this is not the same as other authors version of the Orrery and Bleed. The Bleed contains all the other franchises and Grant goes to explicite length to denote repeatedly that they are not analogues.
So, Deagon and friends, when you say the Presence is the Overvoid, that is actually debunked directly by the author here in this series. This is not true for Scott Snyder's revision series from Metal to the end of Dark Crisis. That is a different canon and you can say whatever you want about it. For Grant's though (FC to Multiversity) you cannot say this.
The reason is beacuse this author has gone to such absurd lengths to make reasers understand that DC Comics is next to all the other franchises in the Orrery.
Grant has explained this so many times that I don't understand why others do not protest against any counter-statements to this objective data that other users try to make.
Grant here in this interview explains how this story is about how the lines between the IRL world and the realm of all Fictional Spaces are both related to each other.
The Presence is from the DC comics and Vertigo section of the Orrery, and NOT from Marvel, or Archie, or any other section of the Orrery. The Presence is a DC Comics GOD that we clearly see is not the ultimate god of the Sea of Brahma in the Vertigo 2000 series.
So to say the Presence from DC > Every single god ever and even one as a reference to something exterior the fictive plane, is silly and just flat out debunked.
Scalers understand that Aslan from Narnia is in context, explained by the author to be Jesus essentially having a vacation in a book series. Not that Aslan is like Jesus, but that Aslan literally is Jesus from a nonfictional context invading and playing inside of a book fictional space.
The same for Eru Illuvitar, as the author explains the context is nonfictional Yahweh's earlier creation before ours here on this world. Before Lucifer, before our world, LoTR took place on our Earth in context.
The same applies to the Overvoid, a nonfictional reference to the Ain Soph of the Kabbalah and also the Hinduist Voidist viewpoint called the Ain/Ein.
So to say the DC Comics/Vertigo Comics character made of ink and story, which is not the ultimate God of Bleedspace in Grants version, nor was the ultimate god in the Veritgo series, is actually the same entity as what is outside of the fictive plane that oversights all fictional franchise and spaces, is silly and nonsensical.
The Presence of DC Comics is not the Overvoid of the Morrison series, because the Presence is made manifest inside of the DC continuum. And so is the Hand of the Source. Yet, Grant also tells us many times the Overvoid as the Source is far beyond the 2d Plane.
I know this post was made in 2022 but lately, I've seen more users referencing the same debunked notions in this original statement I copied in the beginning of this thread. That is misinformation. It is also debunked directly by the author statements, and also because it is misinformation, others don't read the scans in question and are not made aware that the author confirms the context of what the Source really is, multiple times, what the CAS is, multiple times, and what the Presence is in relation to the Orrery of worlds is, multiple times.
@Antvasima @Deagonx @Elizio33 @ProfectusInfinity
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The Cosmic Armor never has been referenced as all Existence specially when “said” Existence predates for Armor and we see the Orrery being separate of it which was also consider to be Existence itself up to a finite point.I was doing some research for a video and came across this from 2022. Wanted to debunk this.
There are a few objective problems with this statement from Deagon.
The first, that the entire next 50 posts totally ignored that Morrison here directly explains what the Cosmic Armor Superman is. It is the Multiverse, it is the Flaw, it is existence, and it is also a big ol' machine metaphor. The big story piloted by Superman was the Cosmic Armor. It is also not the first time DC references the entire Orrery as a workable machine.
So, no, the big story isn’t Superman especially since everyone is stuck to some sort of story which applies to Nil Monitors, Thought Robot, and Dax Novu/Mandrakk.
The Orrery has the stories of each character from each Earth, sure. However, its meta nature stands alone in DC and not other works of fiction. Especially since Grant also knows that fiction is still just fiction and it’s not possible for it to contain our world, just a representation like the meta-world of Earth-33.
These do not support your notion.
Ok.
That’s referring to Earth-33 and that alone.This was also shown in the guidebook as a place with a barrier around it that no fictional property can escape from. The following marks on this snapshot are not mine, they are Grants from the Multiversity Guidebook.
Says reflect as it can be used as an analog. It’s not literal.We are told, many times, that Grant's version of this is not the same as other authors version of the Orrery and Bleed. The Bleed contains all the other franchises and Grant goes to explicite length to denote repeatedly that they are not analogues.
I agree the Presence is more fundamental and beyond the Overvoid/Light in its truest form. There’s never been a reference to Presence = Overvoid.
The concept is talking about if the Void exist with all these bubbles representing different Universal franchise which the DC Universe is one of many, not all is contained within the DC Universe. You’re literally reading that wrong and mixing the context and wording.The reason is beacuse this author has gone to such absurd lengths to make reasers understand that DC Comics is next to all the other franchises in the Orrery.
This inverse logic of real life is bound to comics and their meta-nature, not anything literal.Grant has explained this so many times that I don't understand why others do not protest against any counter-statements to this objective data that other users try to make.
I would not believe that he thinks his creations would be above the real world.
There’s no such thing as section of the Orrery. Sea of Brahma isn’t a concept during 2000’s Lucifer series. Carey and Matteis writing are not in continuity with each other.
Monitors were described as “Hyper-Gods” who can feel narratives and are bound to the same logic as below. Everyone including them has a story.
Aslan is still fictional. When he refers to having another name in their world far from Narnia, it would elude that Aslan is based only to Narnia while Jesus is to the religion view in the real world. There’s no Jesus in Narnia because that’s Aslan and vice versa.
Eru is based more on the Christian God and specifically the Triune taken by Christians. Yahweh is more Jewish and Hebrewic before the establishment of Christianity. Hence why they refer to the concept as Judeo-Christian but its origin is from the Jews.
Kabbalah is a sect of Judaism, not Hinduism.
More babbling.
Morrison isn’t the sole guy to write DC. That’s depends on who makes the ultimate canon when they write which changes a lot including Grant.The Presence of DC Comics is not the Overvoid of the Morrison series, because the Presence is made manifest inside of the DC continuum. And so is the Hand of the Source. Yet, Grant also tells us many times the Overvoid as the Source is far beyond the 2d Plane.
It’s no wonder why no one believes it.
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I mean, I don't really have an interest in making a big response to all of that, so I'll just say that the stance that the Thought Robot is literally the flaw/multiverse/Orrery itself is very clearly and blatantly false and both Final Crisis and Multiversity make that stance clear. The Thought Robot was explicitly defined as the remnant of the probe's first contact and is shown separately from the Orrery.The first, that the entire next 50 posts totally ignored that Morrison here directly explains what the Cosmic Armor Superman is. It is the Multiverse, it is the Flaw, it is existence, and it is also a big ol' machine metaphor. The big story piloted by Superman was the Cosmic Armor. It is also not the first time DC references the entire Orrery as a workable machine.
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Michael does make a good point about the Presence and Overvoid being different which was made clear during JSA and Final Revelations. I don’t know why we consider them the same when they’re not.
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The Source is the common element here. There is overwhelming evidence that the Source and Overvoid are identical, and overwhelming evidence that the Presence/Source are either identical or otherwise deeply connected.
They may have been referred to separately in one of the Final Crisis side-stories but the evidence of their connection is too strong to simply ignore. Add that to the fact that Williamson straight up made them the same thing and it just makes it the most natural conclusion.
The authors that have commented on the subject tend to see them as being the same thing.
They may have been referred to separately in one of the Final Crisis side-stories but the evidence of their connection is too strong to simply ignore. Add that to the fact that Williamson straight up made them the same thing and it just makes it the most natural conclusion.
The authors that have commented on the subject tend to see them as being the same thing.
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That’s if we include that Morrison follows the idea of Snyder which I don’t believe he does.
Snyder eludes that the Presence is a personal manifestation of the Source and the direct attribute of the Creator physical properties as explained by Imaginary which I talked to.
Morrsion accredits that the Presence being manifested during some certain point. That he made the material world and Heaven(Shining City) and that he is a creator entity responsible for those. The Overvoid had no formal understanding of the Flaw and was threaten by it. There’s no Unseen Council, no “Mother of the Multiverse,” and Snyder doesn’t even treat the Overvoid as sentient and retcon the origin of Monitors being splinters of Mar Novu.
They’re idea of the Presence not intertwined. The Source was equated as the Overvoid as seen by Morrison as two allorgical beings for a God, one to the new gods and one to the science angels(Monitors). Snyder focuses that there is unseen beings beyond the threshold of the Multiverse that works for the Presence, whom is the Source out there in the Greater Omniverse/Overvoid, which in this canon was treated as a location/place and not a sentient being.
Morrison has never said the Presence = Overvoid. Snyder never said Overvoid = Source. Williamson also retcon Perpetua place in the hierarchy and brought about the Darkness which wasn’t at all eluded during Metal Wars and he never said the Presence was the Light. That’s your headcanon.
Snyder eludes that the Presence is a personal manifestation of the Source and the direct attribute of the Creator physical properties as explained by Imaginary which I talked to.
Morrsion accredits that the Presence being manifested during some certain point. That he made the material world and Heaven(Shining City) and that he is a creator entity responsible for those. The Overvoid had no formal understanding of the Flaw and was threaten by it. There’s no Unseen Council, no “Mother of the Multiverse,” and Snyder doesn’t even treat the Overvoid as sentient and retcon the origin of Monitors being splinters of Mar Novu.
They’re idea of the Presence not intertwined. The Source was equated as the Overvoid as seen by Morrison as two allorgical beings for a God, one to the new gods and one to the science angels(Monitors). Snyder focuses that there is unseen beings beyond the threshold of the Multiverse that works for the Presence, whom is the Source out there in the Greater Omniverse/Overvoid, which in this canon was treated as a location/place and not a sentient being.
Morrison has never said the Presence = Overvoid. Snyder never said Overvoid = Source. Williamson also retcon Perpetua place in the hierarchy and brought about the Darkness which wasn’t at all eluded during Metal Wars and he never said the Presence was the Light. That’s your headcanon.
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He did. He referenced the Swamp Thing story with the original great darkness, in which the light extended a hand from Heaven. It has to be the Presence.
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No, it doesn’t? We’ve seen from earlier story that the Presence lives through aspect. Like the Spectre talking to the Voice, which is an aspect of the Presence to revive his Justice Society friends. We’ve seen in the Lucifer series that the Presence manifest shape through which he cats and speak, Lucifer mentions this and Yahweh mentions this to Elaine. Like how the Dog form is simply an aspect of God, the Voice. Like how Hawkman and Hawkgirl were spoken by the Voice.
Also, the Light represent the ultimate contrast to the Darkness which later in #75 we see God beyond duality and beyond opposite. Whose breath created all things with his quintessence perfection. Also, in the same story it literal referred the Darkness as the reincarnation of evil and the ultimate evil despite the extra added context that Williamson added to say its nature isn’t good nor evil which people twist it being “beyond” evil and good despite that not being the case. Like how people elude that God = Presence when Morrison made a tweet that may or may not be real. Even if it were there was context because he refers to God as the Overvoid or the blank page and the Source is another depiction of God through a different approach.
He never mentions the Presence, Williamson didn’t, and only Snyder did as he saw it as the same being as the Source.
“It has to be the Presence” is again a headcanon.
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I don't understand what you mean about aspects. The Swamp Thing story concretely shows that the Light is in Heaven, and Williamson relies on that. The Light is clearly meant to be a conception of the standard Abrahamic god in that story, which means its the Presence. Lucifer (vol 2) and (vol 3) also refers to the Great Darkness as the opposite of the Presence.
You can call it headcanon but I don't consider that persuasive.
You can call it headcanon but I don't consider that persuasive.
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What do you mean, it concretely show it? The Presence wasn’t even referenced by name. Williamson is writing from that old gothic storyline but that same story never mentions of the Presence hence we see later on when the Parliaments teamed up to replace and usurp the Voice, an aspect of God that they serve that lives in Heaven.
The Presence isn’t depicted as Abrahamic all the time. Matteis more so goes with a Brahman conception as the Ultimate Reality. The easiest way to understand the Presence is being accredited as the Judeo-Christian God which both Scott and Williamson do not adhere to. This is why Scott says the Presence lives without the Collective Unconcious and he has many faces across religions as we’ve seen in Phantom Stranger.
Lucifer Vol.2 by Black and Richard has not mentioned this. As for Watters depiction clearly entails that Lucifer was “created” to be the shadow to God’s light to give him an identity. We see he doesn’t need Lucifer rather he just needed an opposition to define him as a “being.”
The only other Lucifer story that mentions this was #75 of Lucifer as when Lucifer tell him that Yahweh expects him to be some sort of shadow but that’s in reference to God and Devil, not Light and Darkness.
Plus, that Lucifer story is only in continuity in the Sandman: Universe which can work with Dark Frontier in certain instances, but there are still some difference. A short cameo of Lucifer and the writer Dans Watter isn’t saying that Lucifer is the Darkness. Even if he were that’s only to contrast God, as Mazikeen is literally described as a “darkness” of rot and warmth and both came from the Void where Lucifer came into being.
I don’t need to persuade you. Which would be useless because I’m pretty sure you won’t change your view on this.
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For the record, while #50 of Swamp Thing shows the light in heaven, ST refers to god in #75 as that something which is beyond thought, beyond dualities, showing "god" as completely above the conflict of light and dark.
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I don't know if this is derailing or not but can you tell me where your profile picture is from?
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I'll have to take a look at it and refresh my memory, but in any case as it pertains to Williamson, he clearly focused on the Great Darkness storyline and portrayed the Overvoid as the Light in Heaven, specifically.
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I guess, I ain't following that storyline (because it goes against what the Darkness was in the first place)
But the Light isn't the true god for the purposes of Swamp Thing/Vertigo.
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I agree. Williamson is adding some extra to the story that was not the case during the original run.
Deagon mentions the Overvoid to be the Light in Heaven which is a retcon to both Metal and Final Crisis depiction of the Overvoid and this new Light of Creation being the Overvoid should be treated as only that and not the Presence. Especially given that most depiction follows the route that that the God would have created the Light, which is ironic since Deagon said the Presence is the Abrahamic God, whom should have created the light and darkness.
Plus, the Light couldn’t have naturally spawn and the scan kinds of mention that “later” the Light came as a small speck that expanded largely. There’s no way to create the notion that the Light was self-creating nor did the Darkness create it and the only other logical route would the Presence prior to manifestation.
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If the Light of Creation is reaching a hand out from Heaven to confront the Great Darkness, its the Presence. I don't see any other reason why it would otherwise be associated with Heaven in any way.
In Lucifer (vol 3), Lucifer remarked that the Presence created him to define Himself. Perfect Darkness to contrast his Perfect Light. So it's not the case that the Presence necessarily created the light. He is the light.
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An aspect of the Presence would still make more sense and not the entire being. Kuuzo did a good job explaining the aspect that live in Primum Mobile as the “presence” of God. While, the entire entity true nature is far beyond both Light and Darkness which makes sense in context of Swamp Thing #75. Plus, the Presence wouldn’t be eternal, if he was the Light since that wasn’t all naturally existing since it was only nothing for a while.
Except later in the story(Devil at Heart) we see that he loses his identity when Lucifer erased himself from the Book. The Light is to be contratsed by the Dark, that’s what give him an identity without it, then his just something without form.
This more so eludes that, he made Lucifer to contest his light as a being made of light to let his creations distinguish him as a being. There still was a time before light and Lucifer and God still predates both, so he exist as something prior to doing that.
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This is correct in the context of ST #50 as well. The entire story revolved around the purpose of the Darkness, only after ST explained his own perspective of duality did Light and Dark embraced in perpetual stalemate, giving meaning to each other.
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Recommendations for skilled tier 6C, high 6A or 5C dc characters that i can make a match for?
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doctor manhattan
