I agree he shouldn't scale to a full power Superman, considering he's weakened earlier in the arc by fighting Apokolips' army, and could even hurt him after being weakened by Kryptonite (AC 816). In a later arc, even a Superman said to be on his weakest day (AC 824) could overpower multiple Gogs at once (AC 825). Despite common belief, these Gogs aren't weaker clones or anything, but the same Gog at different points in time, like being Gog from five hours in the future.
Probably either not updated or some sort of mistake that has not been changed.
We haven't updated all the pages yet
no it does not work like that.
I was doing some research for a video and came across this from 2022. Wanted to debunk this.
There are a few objective problems with this statement from Deagon.
The first, that the entire next 50 posts totally ignored that Morrison here directly explains what the Cosmic Armor Superman is. It is the Multiverse, it is the Flaw, it is existence, and it is also a big ol' machine metaphor. The big story piloted by Superman was the Cosmic Armor. It is also not the first time DC references the entire Orrery as a workable machine.
The next problem is the oversight of context and chucking it right out the window. Grant's context of the Orrery during Final Crisis was meta. The Orrery of Worlds includes every other franchise and the Orrery is a reference to Stories on a meta level, as Grant repeatedly explains the reasoning for the comic is to showcase the lines between the real world and the realm of fictional space. Grant calls Fictional Space Plane Time. And our world as Cube Time. Grant then goes to extremely lengths to repeat that nothing from Fictional 2D Plane Time can go to 3D Plane time, otherwise, it would not be real. Here are some video links from Grant explaining this.
These interviews and more are from the SuperGods Interview series, which was about a book that Grant wrote some time ago where he explains that he was taken by abstract entities that he later wrote into the comic series as the Nil Monitors:
This was also shown in the guidebook as a place with a barrier around it that no fictional property can escape from. The following marks on this snapshot are not mine, they are Grants from the Multiversity Guidebook.
We are told, many times, that Grant's version of this is not the same as other authors version of the Orrery and Bleed. The Bleed contains all the other franchises and Grant goes to explicite length to denote repeatedly that they are not analogues.
So, Deagon and friends, when you say the Presence is the Overvoid, that is actually debunked directly by the author here in this series. This is not true for Scott Snyder's revision series from Metal to the end of Dark Crisis. That is a different canon and you can say whatever you want about it. For Grant's though (FC to Multiversity) you cannot say this.
The reason is beacuse this author has gone to such absurd lengths to make reasers understand that DC Comics is next to all the other franchises in the Orrery.
Grant has explained this so many times that I don't understand why others do not protest against any counter-statements to this objective data that other users try to make.
Grant here in this interview explains how this story is about how the lines between the IRL world and the realm of all Fictional Spaces are both related to each other.
The Presence is from the DC comics and Vertigo section of the Orrery, and NOT from Marvel, or Archie, or any other section of the Orrery. The Presence is a DC Comics GOD that we clearly see is not the ultimate god of the Sea of Brahma in the Vertigo 2000 series.
So to say the Presence from DC > Every single god ever and even one as a reference to something exterior the fictive plane, is silly and just flat out debunked.
Scalers understand that Aslan from Narnia is in context, explained by the author to be Jesus essentially having a vacation in a book series. Not that Aslan is like Jesus, but that Aslan literally is Jesus from a nonfictional context invading and playing inside of a book fictional space.
The same for Eru Illuvitar, as the author explains the context is nonfictional Yahweh's earlier creation before ours here on this world. Before Lucifer, before our world, LoTR took place on our Earth in context.
The same applies to the Overvoid, a nonfictional reference to the Ain Soph of the Kabbalah and also the Hinduist Voidist viewpoint called the Ain/Ein.
So to say the DC Comics/Vertigo Comics character made of ink and story, which is not the ultimate God of Bleedspace in Grants version, nor was the ultimate god in the Veritgo series, is actually the same entity as what is outside of the fictive plane that oversights all fictional franchise and spaces, is silly and nonsensical.
The Presence of DC Comics is not the Overvoid of the Morrison series, because the Presence is made manifest inside of the DC continuum. And so is the Hand of the Source. Yet, Grant also tells us many times the Overvoid as the Source is far beyond the 2d Plane.
I know this post was made in 2022 but lately, I've seen more users referencing the same debunked notions in this original statement I copied in the beginning of this thread. That is misinformation. It is also debunked directly by the author statements, and also because it is misinformation, others don't read the scans in question and are not made aware that the author confirms the context of what the Source really is, multiple times, what the CAS is, multiple times, and what the Presence is in relation to the Orrery of worlds is, multiple times.
The Cosmic Armor never has been referenced as all Existence specially when “said” Existence predates for Armor and we see the Orrery being separate of it which was also consider to be Existence itself up to a finite point.I was doing some research for a video and came across this from 2022. Wanted to debunk this.
There are a few objective problems with this statement from Deagon.
The first, that the entire next 50 posts totally ignored that Morrison here directly explains what the Cosmic Armor Superman is. It is the Multiverse, it is the Flaw, it is existence, and it is also a big ol' machine metaphor. The big story piloted by Superman was the Cosmic Armor. It is also not the first time DC references the entire Orrery as a workable machine.
The Orrery has the stories of each character from each Earth, sure. However, its meta nature stands alone in DC and not other works of fiction. Especially since Grant also knows that fiction is still just fiction and it’s not possible for it to contain our world, just a representation like the meta-world of Earth-33.
That’s referring to Earth-33 and that alone.This was also shown in the guidebook as a place with a barrier around it that no fictional property can escape from. The following marks on this snapshot are not mine, they are Grants from the Multiversity Guidebook.
Says reflect as it can be used as an analog. It’s not literal.We are told, many times, that Grant's version of this is not the same as other authors version of the Orrery and Bleed. The Bleed contains all the other franchises and Grant goes to explicite length to denote repeatedly that they are not analogues.
I agree the Presence is more fundamental and beyond the Overvoid/Light in its truest form. There’s never been a reference to Presence = Overvoid.
The concept is talking about if the Void exist with all these bubbles representing different Universal franchise which the DC Universe is one of many, not all is contained within the DC Universe. You’re literally reading that wrong and mixing the context and wording.The reason is beacuse this author has gone to such absurd lengths to make reasers understand that DC Comics is next to all the other franchises in the Orrery.
This inverse logic of real life is bound to comics and their meta-nature, not anything literal.Grant has explained this so many times that I don't understand why others do not protest against any counter-statements to this objective data that other users try to make.
I would not believe that he thinks his creations would be above the real world.
There’s no such thing as section of the Orrery. Sea of Brahma isn’t a concept during 2000’s Lucifer series. Carey and Matteis writing are not in continuity with each other.
Monitors were described as “Hyper-Gods” who can feel narratives and are bound to the same logic as below. Everyone including them has a story.
Aslan is still fictional. When he refers to having another name in their world far from Narnia, it would elude that Aslan is based only to Narnia while Jesus is to the religion view in the real world. There’s no Jesus in Narnia because that’s Aslan and vice versa.
Eru is based more on the Christian God and specifically the Triune taken by Christians. Yahweh is more Jewish and Hebrewic before the establishment of Christianity. Hence why they refer to the concept as Judeo-Christian but its origin is from the Jews.
Kabbalah is a sect of Judaism, not Hinduism.
More babbling.
Morrison isn’t the sole guy to write DC. That’s depends on who makes the ultimate canon when they write which changes a lot including Grant.The Presence of DC Comics is not the Overvoid of the Morrison series, because the Presence is made manifest inside of the DC continuum. And so is the Hand of the Source. Yet, Grant also tells us many times the Overvoid as the Source is far beyond the 2d Plane.
It’s no wonder why no one believes it.
I mean, I don't really have an interest in making a big response to all of that, so I'll just say that the stance that the Thought Robot is literally the flaw/multiverse/Orrery itself is very clearly and blatantly false and both Final Crisis and Multiversity make that stance clear. The Thought Robot was explicitly defined as the remnant of the probe's first contact and is shown separately from the Orrery.The first, that the entire next 50 posts totally ignored that Morrison here directly explains what the Cosmic Armor Superman is. It is the Multiverse, it is the Flaw, it is existence, and it is also a big ol' machine metaphor. The big story piloted by Superman was the Cosmic Armor. It is also not the first time DC references the entire Orrery as a workable machine.
He did. He referenced the Swamp Thing story with the original great darkness, in which the light extended a hand from Heaven. It has to be the Presence.
No, it doesn’t? We’ve seen from earlier story that the Presence lives through aspect. Like the Spectre talking to the Voice, which is an aspect of the Presence to revive his Justice Society friends. We’ve seen in the Lucifer series that the Presence manifest shape through which he cats and speak, Lucifer mentions this and Yahweh mentions this to Elaine. Like how the Dog form is simply an aspect of God, the Voice. Like how Hawkman and Hawkgirl were spoken by the Voice.
What do you mean, it concretely show it? The Presence wasn’t even referenced by name. Williamson is writing from that old gothic storyline but that same story never mentions of the Presence hence we see later on when the Parliaments teamed up to replace and usurp the Voice, an aspect of God that they serve that lives in Heaven.
Lucifer Vol.2 by Black and Richard has not mentioned this. As for Watters depiction clearly entails that Lucifer was “created” to be the shadow to God’s light to give him an identity. We see he doesn’t need Lucifer rather he just needed an opposition to define him as a “being.”
I don’t need to persuade you. Which would be useless because I’m pretty sure you won’t change your view on this.
For the record, while #50 of Swamp Thing shows the light in heaven, ST refers to god in #75 as that something which is beyond thought, beyond dualities, showing "god" as completely above the conflict of light and dark.
I don't know if this is derailing or not but can you tell me where your profile picture is from?
I'll have to take a look at it and refresh my memory, but in any case as it pertains to Williamson, he clearly focused on the Great Darkness storyline and portrayed the Overvoid as the Light in Heaven, specifically.
I guess, I ain't following that storyline (because it goes against what the Darkness was in the first place)
I agree. Williamson is adding some extra to the story that was not the case during the original run.
If the Light of Creation is reaching a hand out from Heaven to confront the Great Darkness, its the Presence. I don't see any other reason why it would otherwise be associated with Heaven in any way.
In Lucifer (vol 3), Lucifer remarked that the Presence created him to define Himself. Perfect Darkness to contrast his Perfect Light. So it's not the case that the Presence necessarily created the light. He is the light.
An aspect of the Presence would still make more sense and not the entire being. Kuuzo did a good job explaining the aspect that live in Primum Mobile as the “presence” of God. While, the entire entity true nature is far beyond both Light and Darkness which makes sense in context of Swamp Thing #75. Plus, the Presence wouldn’t be eternal, if he was the Light since that wasn’t all naturally existing since it was only nothing for a while.
Except later in the story(Devil at Heart) we see that he loses his identity when Lucifer erased himself from the Book. The Light is to be contratsed by the Dark, that’s what give him an identity without it, then his just something without form.
This is correct in the context of ST #50 as well. The entire story revolved around the purpose of the Darkness, only after ST explained his own perspective of duality did Light and Dark embraced in perpetual stalemate, giving meaning to each other.
doctor manhattan
Superman probably
He isn’t in any of those tiers.
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I know and it was very…..good……
