Frisk and Photoshop Flowey should not be Tier 8

[Rodri_"Dante"]

That's just inconsistent. Determination is what gives a SOUL the strength to persist after death.
Also, it's literally stated that DT empowers the SOUL, I don't care what you're arguing about.

The "strenght to persist after death" is not AP, and if DT empowers the soul then... what, did whoever monster that measures the strength of a human soul only encounter humans at the peak of their determination?

The 800 Ton character has to show a 8 Kiloton feat. Great logic Dante.

I have problems with units, ok? It's not something I do on propouse.

None.

Maybe debunk all three instead of pretending they don't exist?

Determination empowers and come from the SOUL.

It allows souls to persist after death and gives a strenght boost when you have enough. That's not empowering souls (AP-wise) and it coming from the soul doesn't mean it scales to the soul (Otherwise Frisk would be 8-B at every moment)

That's exactly what I'm talking about, they're documenting Determination and saying it's because of THAT power that Human SOULs are stronger than almost all monster's combined. That's literally the only thing human SOULs have that Monster's don't.

That's literally not what the Entry 5 says

The leap in logic is Olympic.

No, it doesn't mean that, it doesn't even imply that.
Having a terminology for SOUL Power doesn't mean you know what that power is, nor does it mean you can measure it.

"Just because they use the term 'soul power' doesn't mean that the race that measured the strenght of a human soul can measure the strenght of a human soul"

Alphys know 7 Humans made the barrier through their SOUL, using their power.

And then she DISCOVERS Determination on Entry 5, after this. Of course she didn't call SOUL power Determination before, she hasn't discovered it yet. Absolutely unbearable reasoning.

I'm not pointing out that Alphys didn't call soul power determination, I'm pointing out that she didn't call determination soul power.

You're absolutely unreasonable.
Alphys not connecting DT to AP is IRRELEVANT.

"Frisk and Flowey are this strong because of determination"
"What proves that determination can make you reach that AP?"
"That's irrelevant"

Her statement proves the power the ancient readings stated to be greater than all monster's is Determination.

Ok, so the six humans didn't have enough determination to be 8-B
They die
Now that they are dead their souls have enough determination to be 8-B?
Where did that determination come from and why wasn't it there before?

Moreover, YES. PEOPLE CAN HAVE DETERMINATION AND NOT BE 8-B!!

That's the thing.
Someone measured the strenght of a human soul
We must assume that that someone has not ONLY seen humans that were at the peak of their determination at every moment, that would be weird.
Those humans that didn't have enough determination to be 8-B still had their soul power measured at 8-B
If their soul power was 8-B despite their determination not being enough, then determination is not soul power.

 

[DaReaperMan]

Hey Dante! revise Frisk's entire profile to fit your argument!

 

[Rodri_"Dante"]

Hey Dante! revise Frisk's entire profile to fit your argument!

I mean, I could, but I doubt that discusing things like "Can 'draw' works against anyone besides So Sorry?", "Are the concentrations of ozone really that high in the Core?" or "Should Frisk's pacifist nature be added as a weakness?" are relevant to the tier 8 ratings.

 

[DaReaperMan]

Actually, all of Frisk's AP section is relevant considering at most the humans who fell down were 9-B on their own, scaling to Chara. They had the potential to be 8-B, yes, but they weren't 8-B under no circumstances there.

 

[Rodri_"Dante"]

Actually, all of Frisk's AP section is relevant considering at most the humans who fell down were 9-B on their own, scaling to Chara.

Not... really? 9-B and 9-A have scaling, so there's not much to discuss unless... I don't know, we drop the ball and make Frisk 10-B and all monsters 10-C because "monsters weaker than humans, feats be damned".

They had the potential to be 8-B, yes, but they weren't 8-B under no circumstances there.

Yeah, that something I brought up. Several times.

 

[Eficiente]

From those last comments and having seen fractions of the thread, the downgrade seems pretty reasonable.

 

[DaReaperMan]

Yeah, that something I brought up. Several times.

Then why are you arguing it? It ain't like everyone in Undertale can utilize the full power of their SOUL, hell, Undyne under normal circumstances can't, but Flowey shows the most advanced DT and SOUL powers that we know off with all 6 souls, being SAVE/LOAD.

 

[Rodri_"Dante"]

Then why are you arguing it? It ain't like everyone in Undertale can utilize the full power of their SOUL, hell, Undyne under normal circumstances can't, but Flowey shows the most advanced DT and SOUL powers that we know off with all 6 souls, being SAVE/LOAD.

That's what I have a problem with.
Assuming that doing those things make him Tier 8.

 

[DaReaperMan]

That's what I have a problem with.
Assuming that doing those things make him Tier 8.

They show Flowey can use the strongest parts of the soul to overpower even Frisk's DT and stats.

 

[Rodri_"Dante"]

They show Flowey can use the strongest parts of the soul to overpower even Frisk's DT and stats.

(Wow I'm really gonna go over this again)
Flowey has a lot of abilities after absorbing the 6 human souls, most of them not related to AP and are feasible for characters that are not Tier 8.

Feat/Scaling wise, the best Flowey has done is one shot Frisk who, by that point, had only tanked and dished out 9-A attacks and can't even be proven to be significantly more determined that when they fought Asgore 10 minutes ago.

We also have several examples of determination NOT being equivalent to soul power, so we can't even scale Flowey or Frisk to their own souls, and several statements of monsters being able to exploit the power of souls to their full potential while humans aren't as strongs as their own souls.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

The "strenght to persist after death" is not AP

It is. As explained before, and later in this very post.

• Determination gives strength to the SOULs so it can persist after death.
• The ancient readings described this as "the power of their own SOUL, it's power allows it to persist after death"
• The ancient readings said that "the power of the human SOUL was greater than nearly all monster's"

Done. Unless "power" isn't AP either, lmao.

and if DT empowers the soul then... what, did whoever monster that measures the strength of a human soul only encounter humans at the peak of their determination?

"only"?
They would need to find one. And we literally have no information on humans beyond literal children, argument from incredulity.

I have problems with units, ok? It's not something I do on propouse.

I assume you wanted to say "the weaker character has to show the 800 ton feat, so the 10x stronger character can be 8000 tons"
Monster did show 9-A/9-B feats, so a SOUL can be 8-B by being 15000x stronger than them.

It allows souls to persist after death and gives a strenght boost when you have enough. That's not empowering souls (AP-wise) and it coming from the soul doesn't mean it scales to the soul (Otherwise Frisk would be 8-B at every moment)
That's literally not what the Entry 5 says

It doesn't say that. But it contextualized the ancient readings.

"Just because they use the term 'soul power' doesn't mean that the race that measured the strenght of a human soul can measure the strenght of a human soul"
I'm not pointing out that Alphys didn't call soul power determination, I'm pointing out that she didn't call determination soul power.

She didn't name it Determination until Entry 5. It's blantant Soul POWER was the name for determination before she named it as such.
"I will use SOUL power to free us"
"I will use determination to free us"
In the spam of less than 10 entries.

"Frisk and Flowey are this strong because of determination"
"What proves that determination can make you reach that AP?"
"That's irrelevant"

You really like to misrepresent my points, don't you?
Determination allows SOULs to reach 8-B due to this.

Why? Because of this statement from the ancient readings:

---

• "Humans are unbelievably strong. It would take the SOUL of nearly every monster... just to equal the power of a single human SOUL"

---

This is the reason why SOULs are 8-B, beyond any reasonable doubt.

"So why? Why does Frisk scale to this power just by peaking Determination?"

Quite simple my fellow, the reason why human SOULs are so much stronger than monster's, is because of Determination, and nothing else.

And oh boy, can I prove that.

The literal next ancient text states the following.

---

• "But humans have one weakness. Ironically, it is the strength of their SOUL. It's power allows it to persist outside the human body, even after death."

---

This is literally a follow-up to the previous text describing the power of human SOULs,
"It's power is greater than nearly all monsters, and it's power allows it to persist after death"
Same context.

---

• Entry 5: "I've done it. Using the blueprints, I've extracted it from the human SOULs. I believe this is what gives their SOULs the strength to persist after death. The will to keep living... The resolve to change fate. Let's call this power... Determination."

---

There. I proved that what was measured as > almost all monsters was Determination.

• Ancient readings describes the human SOUL's power as being above nearly all monsters
• Ancient readings describes this power as being what allows the SOUL to persist after death.
• Alphys discovers what causes this power, and names it "Determination".

Ok, so the six humans didn't have enough determination to be 8-B

They did. They just didn't have access to it. Their SOULs on their own had that amount of Determination inside of it.

They die
Now that they are dead their souls have enough determination to be 8-B?
Where did that determination come from and why wasn't it there before?

It always was, they just didn't have access to it.

That's the thing.
Someone measured the strenght of a human soul
We must assume that that someone has not ONLY seen humans that were at the peak of their determination at every moment, that would be weird.

"That would be weird. Because I feel like it"
Yes. A human SOUL was measure in the past.
Why is that a problem?

Those humans that didn't have enough determination to be 8-B still had their soul power measured at 8-B.

"Those humans"? You mean the ones that fought on the war, and the ones we have literally no context on?

If their soul power was 8-B despite their determination not being enough, then determination is not soul power.

The power described as 8-B was Determination, I proved that already with my reply.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

From those last comments and having seen fractions of the thread, the downgrade seems pretty reasonable.

Given my last reply, I'd like you to read it, and maybe reconsider, if possible...

 

[GodlyCharmander]

"only"?
They would need to find one. And we literally have no information on humans beyond literal children, argument from incredulity.

Little correction.

They wouldn't need to even to find a human with peak Determination.
They would just need to have access to a singular human SOUL from a human that has died.
They lived peacefully with humans before the war, and there are Monster Scientists in the Monster Society. Library implies there is research on the nature of the SOUL.

They would just have to study Human SOULs from humans that have passed away in the past at least once to find out that SOULs carry this much power.

 

[Eficiente]

Given my last reply, I'd like you to read it, and maybe reconsider, if possible...

Yes. "Power" is versatile and may not go as in "physical strength" in that context since there are related uses of it in which that's not the case. Do you at least recognize that it's possible that they might have mean it as in "superpowers & literal determination" in that context? Or do you see it as completely impossible? Because the latter doesn't make any sense to me.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Yes. "Power" is versatile and may not go as in "physical strength" in that context since there are related uses of it in which that's not the case. Do you at least recognize that it's possible that they might have mean it as in "superpowers & literal determination" in that context? Or do you see it as completely impossible? Because the latter doesn't make any sense to me.

In this context, it was clearly the most literal use of power.
In the same text, they described how humans attacked the monsters, and they had no reason to.

"Why did the humans attack? Indeed, it seemed they had nothing to fear. Humans are unbelievably strong. It would take the SOUL of nearly every monster... Just to equal the power of a single human SOUL."

It is 100% about actual strength, and not some metaphorical meaning.

 

[Eficiente]

It can be, or not. Humans are both stronger physically and with their abilities. It makes perfect sense that they would be talking about either as it fits in both. Again, they later deconstruct what this "power" human SOULs have is, superpowers, and it is something no monster has. Likewise they don't even need to be physically stronger for the lore to wonder "Why they attacked? They're too strong and we don't have their power" as their superpower compensates. This is even more fitting when you add in the fact that there are monsters who survived that war somehow, changing that text into "It would take the SOUL of nearly every monster... Just to equal the power of a single human SOUL, except accounting for particularly strong boss monsters" to be more precise and 100% be about strength.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

It can be, or not. Humans are both stronger physically and with their abilities. It makes perfect sense that they would be talking about either as it fits in both. Again, they later deconstruct what this "power" human SOULs have is, superpowers, and it is something no monster has. Likewise they don't even need to be physically stronger for the lore to wonder "Why they attacked? They're too strong and we don't have their power" as their superpower compensates. This is even more fitting when you add in the fact that there are monsters who survived that war somehow, changing that text into "It would take the SOUL of nearly every monster... Just to equal the power of a single human SOUL, except accounting for particularly strong boss monsters" to be more precise and 100% be about strength.

Determination isn't a super power. And we're not arguing for physical attributes, we're arguing for AP. The context of power is CLEARLY about their attack power, their actual strength.
They're stronger than monsters.
They fought using weapons.
Their SOULs are stronger than everyone combined.
Boss Monsters have only shown to defeat children.

I see you're just using mental gymnastics and twisting straight statements, that must mean you just have a problem with the value rather than with the logic behind it.

• Library states humans are too strong, and they slayed countless monsters. (Which is why they fled)
• Ancient Texts states humans are too strong, and their SOULs are more powerful than all monsterkind combined.
• The power is later revealed to be determination.
• We know for a fact determination can increase one's AP, and Durability.

"Oh, no, Power isn't referring to actual strength, or actual power, it's about SuPEr PowErS, It's about abilities, skill, NOT LITERALLY STRENGTH LIKE THE READINGS SAY"


Say what you want, I personally believe you're biased against the rating based on this reply. And no, it's not simply because you disagree with me, as I don't have the same thoughts about Dante, and I believe their doubt are coming from a place of honest disagreement.

I will ask for more staff input, this is ridiculous.

 

[Rodri_"Dante"]

It doesn't say that. But it contextualized the ancient readings.

She didn't name it Determination until Entry 5. It's blantant Soul POWER was the name for determination before she named it as such.
"I will use SOUL power to free us"
"I will use determination to free us"
In the spam of less than 10 entries.

Ignoring that the way to use Determination to free everybody was to get the souls of other monsters for more soul power, not using it directly.

It is. As explained before, and later in this very post.

• Determination gives strength to the SOULs so it can persist after death.
• The ancient readings described this as "the power of their own SOUL, it's power allows it to persist after death"
• The ancient readings said that "the power of the human SOUL was greater than nearly all monster's"

Yes, I get that, but that/those monster(s) who measured the strenght of said souls didn't know determination was a thing, and when Alphys discovers it not only does she give it another name, but ties only a few of those characteristics to determination and not all of them.

They wouldn't need to even to find a human with peak Determination.
They would just need to have access to a singular human SOUL from a human that has died.
They lived peacefully with humans before the war, and there are Monster Scientists in the Monster Society. Library implies there is research on the nature of the SOUL.

They would just have to study Human SOULs from humans that have passed away in the past at least once to find out that SOULs carry this much power.

Monsters having access to human souls before the war? And they lost?

Did the humans really declare war when monsters had access to human souls for research? Did no monster consider using those souls at least for self defence or as a threat?

And we literally have no information on humans beyond literal children, argument from incredulity.

Only 3 of those 6 humans that fell down can be proven to be children, and I doubt the Underground had Nagito Komaeda Tier luck to only get small, weak children.

I assume you wanted to say "the weaker character has to show the 800 ton feat, so the 10x stronger character can be 8000 tons"
Monster did show 9-A/9-B feats, so a SOUL can be 8-B by being 15000x stronger than them.

I was talking about Flowey, not the souls

You really like to misrepresent my points, don't you?
Determination allows SOULs to reach 8-B due to this.

-SNIP-

There. I proved that what was measured as > almost all monsters was Determination.

• Ancient readings describes the human SOUL's power as being above nearly all monsters
• Ancient readings describes this power as being what allows the SOUL to persist after death.
• Alphys discovers what causes this power, and names it "Determination".

I get that humans are strong, I get that they have strong souls, and I get that determination boosts them.

Here's the thing: Soul power is a constant. At every point humans have 8-B souls and monsters know this. But obviouly, it's extremly unlikely that every human that fought in the war was tapping into that power.

If that's so, how come monsters bring soul power as the deciding factor?
The answer is simple, the monsters knew two things:
1) Humans have physical bodies that are stronger that monster's
2) Humans have 8-B souls.

With this in mind, is clear that monsters simply put 2 and 2 together: "They body us and they have 8-B souls, so they have 8-B power".
For them there's no difference between getting hit by, say, an 8-C attack and a 8-B attack. Because it would be lethal either way

They did. They just didn't have access to it. Their SOULs on their own had that amount of Determination inside of it.

So you say they had 8-B levels of determination but couldn't tap into it's power?
Despite how you said that determination is the strenght of the soul and having enough lets you tap into it's power?

"Those humans"? You mean the ones that fought on the war, and the ones we have literally no context on?

Well, no. It would be weird to measure their soul power mid-fight.

The power described as 8-B was Determination, I proved that already with my reply.

Then their soul power wouldn't be set in stone and would vary, not be constant while the only thing that varies is how much humans can output.

 

[Rodri_"Dante"]

I see you're just using mental gymnastics and twisting straight statements, that must mean you just have a problem with the value rather than with the logic behind it.

Please don't treat people like that.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Ignoring that the way to use Determination to free everybody was to get the souls of other monsters for more soul power, not using it directly.

Fair. But that's because they need an equivalent of 7 SOULs. They only had 6, and needed a large amount of monster SOULs to equal to a seventh and break the barrier.
Just using the Determination from 6 SOULs would have accomplished nothing.

Yes, I get that, but that/those monster(s) who measured the strenght of said souls didn't know determination was a thing, and when Alphys discovers it not only does she give it another name, but ties only a few of those characteristics to determination and not all of them.

Yeah, but what she tied to determination was only the things relevant to her research and plans.

At this point, it's reasonable to say that the power measured by human SOULs as being "higher than all monster's" was Determination, because while they were ignorant about determination being what caused this, they described the "power higher than monsters" with the same characteristics as determination.

"The power is greater than all monsters combined"
"This power allowed the SOUL to persist after death"
Then Alphys:
"The power that allows the SOUL to do that is Determination"

It's really unreasonable to say the power the ancient readings were describing was something else entirely never addressed by the lore.

Monsters having access to human souls before the war? And they lost?

Did the humans really declare war when monsters had access to human souls for research? Did no monster consider using those souls at least for self defence or as a threat?

Hey, it was an example, not canon lore, chill. Monsters are peaceful, they likely would have returned the SOULs to the families of the passing human after their research, and have done so alongside human scientists.

Again, we literally don't know how they measured SOUL power, but the fact they did measure it at some point in time is undoubtful. Speculating if it was through research, or by meeting a human at peak Determination isn't going to help either of our arguments.

Only 3 of those 6 humans that fell down can be proven to be children, and I doubt the Underground had Nagito Komaeda Tier luck to only get small, weak children.

Would anyone else other than children be s-
Hold on, this is headcanon territory.

Asgore has only been shown and stated to slay children up to this point.

I was talking about Flowey, not the souls.

I see. This wouldn't really work.
If the 8-B SOULs don't have to show any feats, the 8-A character won't suddenly force the 8-B one to show feats.
Of course, there are cases like Dragon Ball, where a line has to be drawn to avoid inflation, but since Omega Flowey, and Peak Frisk are literally one time things, it's fine.

I get that humans are strong, I get that they have strong souls, and I get that determination boosts them.

Here's the thing: Soul power is a constant. At every point humans have 8-B souls and monsters know this. But obviouly, it's extremly unlikely that every human that fought in the war was tapping into that power.

We agree on that.
But I would want you to understand that, what gives their SOUL the power to be 8-B is Determination inside the SOUL.
Humans access to their 8-B power is variable, extremely variable.
Frisk is the greatest example.
They can, by all means, stay at LV 1, don't increase stats, but still get from 9-B to 9-A via DT alone, that's a 2400x jump. Humans of the war are obviously far beyond 9-A, since they were stated to be so strong not even one died (against a lot of 9-A monster).
Saying Frisk going from 9-A to 8-B through an impossibly high amount of DT, another 2000x jump, isn't far fetched at all given the progression of their power.

If that's so, how come monsters bring soul power as the deciding factor?

Oh, I don't think the logic used here is proper.
SOUL power is the defining factor because a stronger SOUL means a stronger being. SOULs are one's entire essence.
And because they likely lived alongside humans long enough to see cases like Frisk, where their SOUL's DT alone increased their stats.

With this in mind, is clear that monsters simply put 2 and 2 together: "They body us and they have 8-B souls, so they have 8-B power".
For them there's no difference between getting hit by, say, an 8-C attack and a 8-B attack. Because it would be lethal either way

That relies on the monster lore being incorrect, and that's an extraordinary claim about an expository line.
It's exposition, Toby used those readings to expose the lore for the players. If any information was incorrect, he would have addressed it directly in the game by giving the correct facts at some point, otherwise the exposition loses all meaning.

So you say they had 8-B levels of determination but couldn't tap into it's power?
Despite how you said that determination is the strenght of the soul and having enough lets you tap into it's power?

Yes.
It requires one to literally peak in Determination and refuse death to change fate. The idea of children, and other humans not having enough will power to tap into that power isn't absurd. (or just being killed before they could)

Well, no. It would be weird to measure their soul power mid-fight.

Before is still an option. And Humans use their SOULs in battle, that's canon. Papyrus even comments on us having a powerful SOUL.

Then their soul power wouldn't be set in stone and would vary, not be constant while the only thing that varies is how much humans can output.

Which is why Frisk has "varies" in their rating. We acknowledge this.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Please don't treat people like that.

I didn't mean to mistreat them by any means.
But playing devil's advocate on such a crystal clear evidence, and context, really makes me think this comes from a place of personal preference rather than honest judgement.

 

[Deleted member 16409]

GOD WHAT A MESS

 

[Sans2345]

Man, this thread is starting to turn into a flame war.

 

[Eficiente]

Determination isn't a super power.

This is objectively wrong. "It's power allows it to persist outside the human body, even after death" "I believe this is what gives their SOULs the strength to persist after death. The will to keep living... The resolve to change fate. Let's call this power... "Determination.""

And we're not arguing for physical attributes, we're arguing for AP.

This is a needless and weird way to reply, you argue that, I argue it may not be AP, who's "we" there?

The context of power is CLEARLY about their attack power, their actual strength.
They're stronger than monsters.
They fought using weapons.
Their SOULs are stronger than everyone combined.
Boss Monsters have only shown to defeat children.

I see you're just using mental gymnastics and twisting straight statements, that must mean you just have a problem with the value rather than with the logic behind it.

• Library states humans are too strong, and they slayed countless monsters. (Which is why they fled)
• Ancient Texts states humans are too strong, and their SOULs are more powerful than all monsterkind combined.
• The power is later revealed to be determination.
• We know for a fact determination can increase one's AP, and Durability.

"Oh, no, Power isn't referring to actual strength, or actual power, it's about SuPEr PowErS, It's about abilities, skill, NOT LITERALLY STRENGTH LIKE THE READINGS SAY"


Say what you want, I personally believe you're biased against the rating based on this reply. And no, it's not simply because you disagree with me, as I don't have the same thoughts about Dante, and I believe their doubt are coming from a place of honest disagreement.

That's not what mental gymnastics are but you are being dogmatic, claiming that because texts refer to physical strength then in this case it too has to while ignoring that it also talks about superpowers, and how so it may be referring to that too. You omitted all parts that portray the "power" in the SOUL as a superpower because it doesn't fit your view and couldn't even see it as a superpower when it objectively is, that on top of that childish "SuPEr PowErS", straw man on purpose sentence makes me think you're biased. If something's wrong then you just say the why of it and that's it, no need to ridicule it, that only helps stubborn people stick to their beliefs in an undeserved manner, literally everything can be pathetic and laughable in perspective.

"They're stronger than monsters."/"Library states humans are too strong, and they slayed countless monsters. (Which is why they fled)"
It still doesn't make any sense that there are monsters who survived the war if all the physical strength of all monsters is needed to match 1 human. It's also pretty odd how they lived together, monsters went to war and then had to flee for a factor (physical strength) they should have known well, whereas the superpower to survive death & reset time would be a different story they solidly may not know about. But we can ignore that last point.

"They fought using weapons." The text there doesn't say that but ok. Ig they needed extra projectiles on top of magic.

"Their SOULs are stronger than everyone combined."/"Ancient Texts states humans are too strong, and their SOULs are more powerful than all monsterkind combined." Yes, the meaning on this is what's put into question.

"Boss Monsters have only shown to defeat children." Yes. Kind of a neutral point. We can ignore how "children" doesn't count within "human", even when monsters refer to Frisk as a human.

"The power is later revealed to be determination." Exactly.

"We know for a fact determination can increase one's AP, and Durability." Independently, yes. DT does many things, the thing the text points to after saying that "it would take all monsters" thing is how they have a power that allows them to persist outside the human body, even after death, and later they research this very thing. DT being able to amp AP and Durabiity is still loosely connected to this, in the sense that it's still something DT can do.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

This is objectively wrong. "It's power allows it to persist outside the human body, even after death" "I believe this is what gives their SOULs the strength to persist after death. The will to keep living... The resolve to change fate. Let's call this power... "Determination.""

In the context of Undertale, that's not a superpower. It's no different than Magic.

This is a needless and weird way to reply, you argue that, I argue it may not be AP, who's "we" there?

Everyone in the old CRT where we approved 8-B.

Again, "it may or may not be" is literally playing Devil's Advocate. You're just throwing random guesses on the table, when the context of the ancient readings CLEARLY point at humanity's strength in a fight. It is about Attack Potency, objectively.

"They're stronger than monsters."/"Library states humans are too strong, and they slayed countless monsters. (Which is why they fled)"
It still doesn't make any sense that there are monsters who survived the war if all the physical strength of all monsters is needed to match 1 human.

That is the most leap in logic I've ever seen.

Their SOULs being 8-B due to Determination /=/ Any given human being 8-B just by having said SOUL.

Your entire counter is based on any random human being 8-B, no one is saying that.
That would be stupid.

We know for a fact, Determination has variable quantities within a human, and it varies their Attack Potency wildly, Frisk being the literal proof of that happening. (Their AP vary over a ratio of 2000x)
So if the entire quantity of DT inside your average Human SOUL is 8-B, then the most Determination could boost your Attack Potency is 8-B when you're at peak Determination.

No human in the war was necessarily at peak Determination. This point and this reply is moot.

 

[Urshani]

Your counters are not set in stone, nor are they considered facts by the participants of the thread, or even valid for that matter. It was disagreed by supporters and a staff member, so it's mostly rejected as of now. If there's a sudden burst of agreements from Staff, then it can go through. (Obviously I will step in if that happens)

I didn't "concede" to my points either, I just stopped responding because your reasoning was repetitive and based on a lot of confirmation bias, which your counters in the OP also have, and people saw both sides and agreed with my points, that's just it. The fact you "answered" my points doesn't give you immunity to disagreement, nor does it make your post automatically valid.

this makes no sense

 

[GodlyCharmander]

this makes no sense

great claim bud, really changed the direction of the thread. Any more quips to add?

 

[Rodri_"Dante"]

Which is why Frisk has "varies" in their rating. We acknowledge this.

That's the problem. If soul power is constant but determinations fluctuates, then determination is not soul power.
And if determination is not soul power, then determination-boosted AP can't be proven to be 8-B.

We even have two moments where Frisk is overpowered by beings with less determination and soul power than them (Flowey at the beginning of the game, Undyne the Undying), which gives even less of a reason to believe the strength boost from determination is affected by how strong your soul is (Leaving aside the fact that stronger souls produce more determination)

Fair. But that's because they need an equivalent of 7 SOULs. They only had 6, and needed a large amount of monster SOULs to equal to a seventh and break the barrier.
Just using the Determination from 6 SOULs would have accomplished nothing.

That's that I'm getting at. Alphys saying "We'll use determination to free everyone" is not proof that soul power and determination are the same because she wasn't using determination directly, but to get something else.

Yeah, but what she tied to determination was only the things relevant to her research and plans.

She still gave it a brand new name despite having an already useable name, and what kind of researcher discovers a new substance but neglects several of it's attributes while documenting it?

At this point, it's reasonable to say that the power measured by human SOULs as being "higher than all monster's" was Determination, because while they were ignorant about determination being what caused this, they described the "power higher than monsters" with the same characteristics as determination.

"The power is greater than all monsters combined"
"This power allowed the SOUL to persist after death"
Then Alphys:
"The power that allows the SOUL to do that is Determination"

It's really unreasonable to say the power the ancient readings were describing was something else entirely never addressed by the lore.

That only makes sense if the human(s) who had the strenght of their soul(s) measured were at the peak of their determination, and no other human was measured.

Again, we literally don't know how they measured SOUL power, but the fact they did measure it at some point in time is undoubtful. Speculating if it was through research, or by meeting a human at peak Determination isn't going to help either of our arguments.

It IS important:
*If they didn't measure humans at the peak of their determination, then the result wouldn't have been that high unless determination is not soul power.
*If they only measured humans at the peak of their determination, then determination being soul power holds more weight, but it would be one hell of a coincidence.

Asgore has only been shown and stated to slay children up to this point.

I don't think Asgore killed anyone, as his stats should have been boosted by LOVE.
Actually, how the hell did the humans die?

I see. This wouldn't really work.
If the 8-B SOULs don't have to show any feats, the 8-A character won't suddenly force the 8-B one to show feats.
Of course, there are cases like Dragon Ball, where a line has to be drawn to avoid inflation, but since Omega Flowey, and Peak Frisk are literally one time things, it's fine.

But the problem is not how the tier 8 ratings affect the verse (Because they don't), but the logic behind the tier 8 ratings.

We agree on that.
But I would want you to understand that, what gives their SOUL the power to be 8-B is Determination inside the SOUL.
Humans access to their 8-B power is variable, extremely variable.
Frisk is the greatest example.
They can, by all means, stay at LV 1, don't increase stats, but still get from 9-B to 9-A via DT alone, that's a 2400x jump. Humans of the war are obviously far beyond 9-A, since they were stated to be so strong not even one died (against a lot of 9-A monster).
Saying Frisk going from 9-A to 8-B through an impossibly high amount of DT, another 2000x jump, isn't far fetched at all given the progression of their power.

As I said, the problem is not "8-B bad because it's illogical", the problem is "8-B has several problems due to how determination, humans, and monsters work, so it's not a verifiable".

That relies on the monster lore being incorrect, and that's an extraordinary claim about an expository line.
It's exposition, Toby used those readings to expose the lore for the players. If any information was incorrect, he would have addressed it directly in the game by giving the correct facts at some point, otherwise the exposition loses all meaning.

Lore also says "But the absolute nature of “SOUL” is unknown.", so while they were right on several things we can't expect everything to be correct.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

That's the problem. If soul power is constant but determinations fluctuates, then determination is not soul power.
And if determination is not soul power, then determination-boosted AP can't be proven to be 8-B.

I believe you're misinterpreting this whole thing.

In the scenario I'm pointing towards with my evidence,

• The SOUL has a total amount of Determination that equates to 8-B. (Aka, SOUL power)
• A being has limited access to how much determination of their SOUL (literally their essence) they can use at any given time.

The total power is 8-B, the amount of power a being can access is variable.
I believe you even acknowledged that before with the "power source =/= power output" argument, which perfectly responds what you're putting as a contradiction here.

Of course, I am not trying to use your argument against you, but you already answered that yourself, and here, it's the same principle.
Undyne the Undying showcases that, by having her SOUL magic increasing exponentially by tapping into more determination than she had before.

We even have two moments where Frisk is overpowered by beings with less determination and soul power than them (Flowey at the beginning of the game, Undyne the Undying), which gives even less of a reason to believe the strength boost from determination is affected by how strong your soul is (Leaving aside the fact that stronger souls produce more determination)

Not really.
Frisk was by no means determined against Flowey, they were off guard, and had no reason to fear the flower.
So their DT in that fight was quite low, and they reach their first SAVE within seconds after this fight.

"Overpowered" by Undyne? You do know stats /=/ DT, right?
Undyne has Frisk beat in stats 3 times over, but Frisk can still keep up by having a higher determination. Not a contradiction at all.

That's that I'm getting at. Alphys saying "We'll use determination to free everyone" is not proof that soul power and determination are the same because she wasn't using determination directly, but to get something else.

That's not what I'm using to prove that SOUL Power = Determination. It was barely a supporting evidence.
The main evidence was how ancient readings literally describe the power of SOUL with characteristics exclusive to determination.

She still gave it a brand new name despite having an already useable name, and what kind of researcher discovers a new substance but neglects several of it's attributes while documenting it?

Alphys does. She is researching the SOUL to gather monster SOULs, why would she include irrelevant attributes in her entries about something entirely parallel?
You said it yourself, it's a new substance, the description changed, "Human SOULs are so strong to the point they can exists outside the body due to will and resolve, therefore "SOUL power" isn't proper, this is Determination".

Also, you do realize "lack of statement" isn't an anti-feat, or counter evidence when there's already a statement heavily implying SOUL power.

That only makes sense if the human(s) who had the strenght of their soul(s) measured were at the peak of their determination, and no other human was measured.

It IS important:
*If they didn't measure humans at the peak of their determination, then the result wouldn't have been that high unless determination is not soul power.
*If they only measured humans at the peak of their determination, then determination being soul power holds more weight, but it would be one hell of a coincidence.

Again with the confirmation bias.

No, a human doesn't have to be using the absolute peak of their determination so their SOUL can be accurately measured.
They just need to research a singular individual SOUL. It always carries that much Determination even if the user isn't using it all. This singular fact is the reason why Alphys can extract DT from dead people's SOULs in the first place.

I don't think Asgore killed anyone, as his stats should have been boosted by LOVE.
Actually, how the hell did the humans die?

LOVE is Level of Violence.
Asgore didn't want to kill any of the humans he killed, which might be--

again with the headcanon territory, this is a neutral point, let's drop it.

But the problem is not how the tier 8 ratings affect the verse (Because they don't), but the logic behind the tier 8 ratings.

Alright. But the requirement of a Tier 8 feat should be dropped. They don't have to show a Tier 8 feat it the logic at place is valid, which I'm trying to argue it is now.

As I said, the problem is not "8-B bad because it's illogical", the problem is "8-B has several problems due to how determination, humans, and monsters work, so it's not a verifiable".

That's only a factor to you.

• Human SOULs have been measured to have 8-B levels of Determination in total.
• Humans, Monsters and anyone, can use variable amounts of their total DT at a time.

No contradictions here.

Lore also says "But the absolute nature of “SOUL” is unknown.", so while they were right on several things we can't expect everything to be correct.

From a narrative standpoint, nope.

If monsters have an outdated, or incorrect idea on how SOUL power works, the writing would have made any effort to show that to the player. If you make lore to make exposition, you will make so everything there is true.
The only reason to lie to the player is to create a red herring that will be revealed later.
That's not the case with monster lore.

Of course, Toby might just be super crazy, and lied to us about monster lore without any plans of clarifying that, but that's an unsupported, extraordinary claim.

Also, also, Toby's writing reinforces the ancient readings lore with Alphys' true LAB entry 5, saying that, the power described by the ancient readings was Determination, so the chances of these ancient readings being incorrect is reduced to nearly zero.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

I've grown quite tired of this back and forth.

I will just point out how many agreements and disagreements are here, from members and staff.

Agree: 1 (@Eficiente)
Disagree: 7 (@Psychomaster35, @GodlyCharmander, @XSOULOFCINDERX, @DaReaperMan, @FantaRin_The_First, @Originlima)

Sigh.

 

[Eficiente]

In the context of Undertale, that's not a superpower. It's no different than Magic.

This is nonsense. Being a verse with superpowers doesn't mean that other people's superpowers aren't just that. It's a superhuman ability monsters don't have, those are superpowers outside the context of Undertale and in it too.

Everyone in the old CRT where we approved 8-B.

This again pays as much attention, it's trivia that tries to hide how you said something a little manipulative by portraying what fans said as what the game stated.

Again, "it may or may not be" is literally playing Devil's Advocate.

Since I argue that I'm not, it's not.

In other words I reply your "You're wrong" with a "I'm not".

Their SOULs being 8-B due to Determination /=/ Any given human being 8-B just by having said SOUL.

Your entire counter is based on any random human being 8-B, no one is saying that.
That would be stupid.

We know for a fact, Determination has variable quantities within a human, and it varies their Attack Potency wildly, Frisk being the literal proof of that happening. (Their AP vary over a ratio of 2000x)
So if the entire quantity of DT inside your average Human SOUL is 8-B, then the most Determination could boost your Attack Potency is 8-B when you're at peak Determination.

No human in the war was necessarily at peak Determination. This point and this reply is moot.

Ok, this is beyond odd. It assumes monsters know about how DT users vary in power, and that despite generalizing how it would take all monsters to match 1 human SOUL no human in the war was necessarily at the level they generalized 1 human to be? Needless to say, this can be avoided by taking in that "power" was as in those other abilities rather than physical strength, which I see as very simple.

 

[Rodri_"Dante"]

I believe you're misinterpreting this whole thing.

In the scenario I'm pointing towards with my evidence,

• The SOUL has a total amount of Determination that equates to 8-B. (Aka, SOUL power)
• A being has limited access to how much determination of their SOUL (literally their essence) they can use at any given time.

The total power is 8-B, the amount of power a being can access is variable.
I believe you even acknowledged that before with the "power source =/= power output" argument, which perfectly responds what you're putting as a contradiction here.

No, a human doesn't have to be using the absolute peak of their determination so their SOUL can be accurately measured.
They just need to research a singular individual SOUL. It always carries that much Determination even if the user isn't using it all. This singular fact is the reason why Alphys can extract DT from dead people's SOULs in the first place.

That's not how biology works.
Your body doesn't produce substances in such large quantities when you don't need them.

It also brings the problem of "Why is Undyne's soul weaker that Asgore's if she has more determination than him?".

Undyne the Undying showcases that, by having her SOUL magic increasing exponentially by tapping into more determination than she had before.

"More determination than she had before".
AKA, determination is generated and not always there.

Frisk was by no means determined against Flowey, they were off guard, and had no reason to fear the flower.

Frisk existing surpasses Flowey's determination, "by no means determined" my a-

So their DT in that fight was quite low, and they reach their first SAVE within seconds after this fight.

Flowy tried to load before that and failed, so Frisk determination couldn't be that low.

"Overpowered" by Undyne? You do know stats /=/ DT, right?

Then why do characters get higher stats with higher determination then?

Undyne has Frisk beat in stats 3 times over, but Frisk can still keep up by having a higher determination. Not a contradiction at all.

Their way of keeping up was memorize Undyne's attack patterns to not die, they were still way weaker than her despite having more determination.

Alphys does. She is researching the SOUL to gather monster SOULs, why would she include irrelevant attributes in her entries about something entirely parallel?

To avoid data loss.

You said it yourself, it's a new substance, the description changed, "Human SOULs are so strong to the point they can exists outside the body due to will and resolve, therefore "SOUL power" isn't proper, this is Determination".

But soul power is something even monster's possess while having a neligible (If any) quantity of determination. So in your example calling Soul Power determination makes it more accurate to humans while awfully misleading for monsters.

That's only a factor to you.

I've talked about this off-site and I'm not the only that disagrees with the stats. Is not my fault that they don't want to step here.

• 
  

  [*]Human SOULs have been measured to have 8-B levels of Determination in total.
  [*]Humans, Monsters and anyone, can use variable amounts of their total DT at a time.

No contradictions here.

The contradiction of "Humans only use a fraction of their soul power based on determination, but when monsters get human souls they bypass that requirement entirely and go straight to having enough power to destroy several humans".

If monsters have an outdated, or incorrect idea on how SOUL power works, the writing would have made any effort to show that to the player. If you make lore to make exposition, you will make so everything there is true.

They aren't wrong technically speaking.
Humans souls are strong, and because they are strong they produce big quantities of determination that allows them to persist after death.
So saying "human souls persist after death because they are this strong" is not wrong, it's just missing details they didn't know about

Also, also, Toby's writing reinforces the ancient readings lore with Alphys' true LAB entry 5, saying that, the power described by the ancient readings was Determination, so the chances of these ancient readings being incorrect is reduced to nearly zero.

But there are several examples of determination not being equal to soul power, which coupled with Alphys making mentions only about non AP-related attributes and giving determination it's own name leads one to deduce soul power and determination are not equivalent.

 

[DaReaperMan]

Flowy tried to load before that and failed, so Frisk determination couldn't be that low

Maybe it's because the SOULs turned against his bitch ass eh?

 

[Rodri_"Dante"]

Maybe it's because the SOULs turned against his bitch ass eh?

Wrong moment.
I'm talking about the beginning of the game.

 

[DaReaperMan]

Then we don't have any proof he tried to load...

 

[Rodri_"Dante"]

He said so himself in the genocide route.

 

[Comiphorous]

Im more curious than i am against it but-

why does frisk specifically have the Tier 8 AP? im not against the Durability since thats completely justified but flowey's defenses dropped to zero once the souls revolted, so wouldn't that drop him down to atleast 9-B durability, letting frisk damage him?

 

[Rodri_"Dante"]

why does frisk specifically have the Tier 8 AP? im not against the Durability since thats completely justified but flowey's defenses dropped to zero once the souls revolted, so wouldn't that drop him down to atleast 9-B durability, letting frisk damage him?

The logic is, since Frisk reached the peak of their determination, they are capable of using the full power of their soul.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

That's not how biology works.
Your body doesn't produce substances in such large quantities when you don't need them.

"Biology"?
"Body"?

It also brings the problem of "Why is Undyne's soul weaker that Asgore's if she has more determination than him?".
"More determination than she had before".
AKA, determination is generated and not always there.

Frisk existing surpasses Flowey's determination, "by no means determined" my a-
Flowy tried to load before that and failed, so Frisk determination couldn't be that low.

Then why do characters get higher stats with higher determination then?
Their way of keeping up was memorize Undyne's attack patterns to not die, they were still way weaker than her despite having more determination.

To avoid data loss.
But soul power is something even monster's possess while having a neligible (If any) quantity of determination. So in your example calling Soul Power determination makes it more accurate to humans while awfully misleading for monsters.

I've talked about this off-site and I'm not the only that disagrees with the stats. Is not my fault that they don't want to step here.

The contradiction of "Humans only use a fraction of their soul power based on determination, but when monsters get human souls they bypass that requirement entirely and go straight to having enough power to destroy several humans".
They aren't wrong technically speaking.
Humans souls are strong, and because they are strong they produce big quantities of determination that allows them to persist after death.
So saying "human souls persist after death because they are this strong" is not wrong, it's just missing details they didn't know about

But there are several examples of determination not being equal to soul power, which coupled with Alphys making mentions only about non AP-related attributes and giving determination it's own name leads one to deduce soul power and determination are not equivalent.

I am tired.
I do not believe I can convince you, nor do I find your argument compelling enough to concede myself. Most of my reply will be reworded versions of my previous ones.

at this point, I believe you fully understand my argument, and I fully understand yours. We just disagree.

Let's agree to disagree and wait for more input, I've called several supporters and knowledgeable staff to comment here.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Im more curious than i am against it but-

why does frisk specifically have the Tier 8 AP? im not against the Durability since thats completely justified but flowey's defenses dropped to zero once the souls revolted, so wouldn't that drop him down to atleast 9-B durability, letting frisk damage him?

I explain why in Post #77 on this very thread.