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Ok, I have added and answered the counterarguments in the op.
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Frisk and Photoshop Flowey should not be Tier 8
- Thread starter Rodri_"Dante"
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GodlyCharmander
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I countered the "Monster with the Human SOULs" argument long ago, I don't know why you're insisting on using it.
SOUL absorption isn't additive, it's incremental. A Monster with a human SOUL is unquantifiably higher than the sum of a human and a monster.
SOUL absorption isn't additive, it's incremental. A Monster with a human SOUL is unquantifiably higher than the sum of a human and a monster.
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No, you know that adding more human souls increases the value exponentially.
You don't know if adding a singular monster soul to a human soul gives a noticeable increment. In fact, the end of the game goes against this.
You know how Asriel failed to absorb the soul of Napstablook (And possibly that other monster that didn't know who Frisk was)? Yet missing that/those soul(s) didn't matter and he still destroyed the barrier?
GodlyCharmander
He/Him- 5,744
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Adding a Human SOUL is incremental, a monster is adding a human SOUL, not the contrary.
Good luck your arbitrary, poor excuses...
That's the...
Sigh, that's your worst point yet.
1 human SOUL = nearly all the SOULs on the underground.
Yes, Napstablook singular SOUL wouldn't matter, the rest are stil enough to equal to a 7th human SOUL
GodlyCharmander
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Also, **** no. Monster SOULs are also incremental. Their combined strength is 8-B, but they made a 6 SOUL character become Low 2-C.
Absolutely stupid reasoning.
Absolutely stupid reasoning.
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Wait wait wait wait.
You're saying that adding a human soul to something, regardless of the initial "soul power" of the being, increases power exponentially?
So if a human rips out their own soul and latter it is out back, then that human is exponentially stronger than before because you put a human soul inside of them?
You're not making a whole lot of sense.
You're saying that adding a human soul to something, regardless of the initial "soul power" of the being, increases power exponentially?
So if a human rips out their own soul and latter it is out back, then that human is exponentially stronger than before because you put a human soul inside of them?
You're not making a whole lot of sense.
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Oh, and as a reference for the future:
Exponential functions don't do anything with a single unit of something. So yeah, in this context exponential growth is not a valid argument.
Exponential functions don't do anything with a single unit of something. So yeah, in this context exponential growth is not a valid argument.
GodlyCharmander
He/Him- 5,744
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You're actually contradicting yourself, that's unintelligent. First, you already responded your own senseless "contradiction" above.
There is not a single unit.
there are two.
1 Human SOUL, and 1 Monster SOUL.
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So the difference between a human and a monster with a human soul is that the monster has an adicional monster soul.
And a singular monster soul doesn't make much of a difference.
Therefore exponential growth doesn't work in this context.
GodlyCharmander
He/Him- 5,744
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Yes it does. SOUL absorption amplifies the strength of both unquantifiably higher than the sum of their parts. That's a fact, you're just denying it for the sake of denying it
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No, I'm saying that in an exponential function 1 vs 1+[Insert however weaker Asriel's soul is from a human soul] aren't very different from each other. I don't think you want to debate math.
GodlyCharmander
He/Him- 5,744
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It cannot be defined by basic math.
The function basically reaches immeasurable values (Aleph Null) by the time it reaches it's 7th SOUL.
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Uhhh, it actually can.
It would be something like f(X) = 7/(7-X) (The actual results of this particular function are underwhelming, but is just an example)
X is "soul power" where 1 = 1 human soul
As X approaches 7, f(X) approaches infinity.
Of course, this would stop working once you go past 7 human souls, but that's besides the point.
It would be something like f(X) = 7/(7-X) (The actual results of this particular function are underwhelming, but is just an example)
X is "soul power" where 1 = 1 human soul
As X approaches 7, f(X) approaches infinity.
Of course, this would stop working once you go past 7 human souls, but that's besides the point.
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BUMP, I guess.
GodlyCharmander
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This has been met with disagreement from multiple Verse Supporters, and a Staff. I believe it's fair to say the thread is possibly rejected.
We consider that, based on how much Omega Flowey has shown to use and depend on the 6 SOULs to have his time powers (only possible through determination, the literal reason why Human SOULs are 8-B), warping reality similarly to Asriel (but to a much lesser degree), he is likely able to use all the power from said SOULs. Same applies to Frisk, they have shown to use determination to access the power of their SOUL to resist stuff a power equvalent to 7 SOULs, the idea of them being able to use the power of a singular SOUL at the peak of their determination (which also influences their AP) is perfectly fine.
You think this reasoning is not enough, and we disagree. So again, this is almost rejected entirely.
We consider that, based on how much Omega Flowey has shown to use and depend on the 6 SOULs to have his time powers (only possible through determination, the literal reason why Human SOULs are 8-B), warping reality similarly to Asriel (but to a much lesser degree), he is likely able to use all the power from said SOULs. Same applies to Frisk, they have shown to use determination to access the power of their SOUL to resist stuff a power equvalent to 7 SOULs, the idea of them being able to use the power of a singular SOUL at the peak of their determination (which also influences their AP) is perfectly fine.
You think this reasoning is not enough, and we disagree. So again, this is almost rejected entirely.
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Wait, I answer to all counterarguments but because some people said "I dissagree FRA" it is rejected? I will have to re-read the discussion rules because I'm pretty sure that's not how it works
GodlyCharmander
He/Him- 5,744
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Your counters are not set in stone, nor are they considered facts by the participants of the thread, or even valid for that matter. It was disagreed by supporters and a staff member, so it's mostly rejected as of now. If there's a sudden burst of agreements from Staff, then it can go through. (Obviously I will step in if that happens)
I didn't "concede" to my points either, I just stopped responding because your reasoning was repetitive and based on a lot of confirmation bias, which your counters in the OP also have, and people saw both sides and agreed with my points, that's just it. The fact you "answered" my points doesn't give you immunity to disagreement, nor does it make your post automatically valid.
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Well, it's not My fault that:
2. No one said why warping reality is 8-A (Or why we consider P. Flowey to have RW when there's a blog linked in several pages that goes against it).
3. Why Frisk's low 2-C durability proves that they have has 8-B AP at any point when their AP and Dura don't correlate at those levels.
1. No one said why the strenght boost from determination is directly related to how strong your soul is when Undyne the Undying proved that yo be false.
2. No one said why warping reality is 8-A (Or why we consider P. Flowey to have RW when there's a blog linked in several pages that goes against it).
3. Why Frisk's low 2-C durability proves that they have has 8-B AP at any point when their AP and Dura don't correlate at those levels.
GodlyCharmander
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Pretty sure Undyne the Undying is evidence against some of your points, I don't think it's a good idea to use her.
The strength of the SOUL is not a topic for debate, they are 8-B. You have a problem with access to that power.
No one is saying RW is 8-A. We're saying it's a clear depiction of Flowey abusing the powers the SOULs have, showing he has access to it. We have no reason to assume that access is limited by any means.
It doesn't outright prove it, nor did I try to say that. It's supporting evidence that Frisk has enough Determination to do that.
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Name one.
... thanks for explaining the reason for this CRT?
Lack of feats, the fact that those humans with 8-B souls were killed by a race that peaks at 9-A.
Well, can we drop it? Is supporting evidence for both sides and I'm tired of hearing it.
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Rodri, determination AP and dura varies, if you have a problem with that then please revise Frisk's file in its entirety
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I'm not against those stats being variable, I'm against 8-B specifically: for AP due to lack of feats, for dura because it makes as much sense as any value between 9-A and low 2-C.
GodlyCharmander
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"Monsters can use the full power of their SOULs just by being attuned to it"
Feats are not a requirement for ratings based on accumulative values. If a character is 2x stronger than a 8-A+, they wouldn't need to present a Low 7-C feat for this rating to be applied, that's terrible reasoning and indexing.
You do realize we're not arguing that "Billy the random child from Undertale" is automatically 8-B just by having a 8-B SOUL, right?
We're saying, a Human SOUL have more power than all 9-B and 9-A monsters combined, so the potential peak of a human is 8-B. The strength is tapped through determination.
Frisk can have immense peaks of determination to the point they can even control the timeline, which is the greatest feat determination has shown to do, so it is clear that Frisk, at their peak, should have access to the full power of their SOUL. Same applies to Flowey.
Before you say it again, NO I am not presenting the timeline control thing as a 8-B or Low 2-C feat, please interpret my message properly.
Those kids died because they only had access to 9-B levels of Determination. It's as simple as that, that's not a counter to anything, as our current rating says DT wildly varies. That would be a counter if 8-B was set in stone for any average human child, it is not, and it's never going to be.
It shows the literal peak of determination being achieved by Frisk.
Their peak in AP is 8-B, if they can reach the peak of determination.
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Explain.
But that would be upscaling from someone that has a feat.
You had until the last sentence. There are 3 examples for determination stat boosts being unrelated to how strong your soul is (Adding those extra 2 to the OP now).
GodlyCharmander
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Undyne's SOUL is far stronger than what she has shown without peak Determination.
Remember, Magic is through the SOUL, if her magic is 9-A when she is Undyne the Undying, her SOUL scales far higher than what her base form has shown.
"upscaling" would be "higher than 8-A+, therefore Low 7-C"
What I exemplified was "additive values".
"10x stronger than a 800 Tons character, therefore 8 Kilotons"
Does the character need to show a 8 Kilotons feat for the rating to be applied? Absolutely not.
"A 50 ton character fused with a 50 ton character, their fusion is 100 tons in AP"
Same thing. No need for feats.
"A human SOUL is stronger than 15000 monsters combined, therefore 8-B"
If Frisk can tap into that power through determination, they don't need to show a feat.
There isn't any. Undyne's proof that Determination can allow you to use more powerful magic (which is from the SOUL), therefore use more power of said SOUL.
Undyne didn't get stronger than her own SOUL, that doesn't make any sense.
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One little problem.
Those kids had the power of SAVE&LOAD
(Toriel dialogue about Deja Vu stuff when she met them.)
So idk maybe Asgore danmaku pattern were much more insane.
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Uh, no they didn't, Flowey had access to SAVE/LOAD at the time lol
FantaRin_The_First
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No, that's wrong! ... I think. I'm sure we've no idea of the exact time frame Flowey came into existence. Flowey could've come after Asgore got the first soul, and his presence effectively disabled the other human souls from SAVEing & LOADing, or, Flowey could've come into existence after Asgore got all six human souls (somehow) and during that long time period before Frisk entered the underground, and Flowey was the only person in the Underground who could SAVE & LOAD. Hell, we don't even know how strong the other humans were compared to Frisk, other than the fact that Frisk was the only human that could beat Asgore - who more or less was pulling his punches and didn't want to fight in the first place.
GodlyCharmander
He/Him- 5,744
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Yeah, but the other humans still didn't have enough determination to control the timeline, I believe.
It's clear you need a VERY substantial amount of determination to do that, otherwise there would be always one person doing weird stuff with time and space. yl
Deleted member 16409
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Flowey didn't exist at the time when Kids where there, Alphys asked about human SOULs and inserted their DT into flower.
And again, Toriel felt deja vu when saw the humans.
Deleted member 16409
Guest
Flowey probably came after time when at least two human felt there because Alphys said about SOULs, not about SOUL.
So, at least Flowey came up after second soul or sixth.
GodlyCharmander
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They basically are asking for evidence that Frisk and Flowey can use the entire power stored in their SOULs, which are 8-B, and 8-A.
They're not denying they're 8-B/8-A. They're not doubting this level is possible.
They're just saying "We have no way to know how much of that 8-B/8-A power they have access to".
I don't think adding the counter-arguments to the OP was a good idea, it makes everything clustered and confusing.
I will provide my final counterpoint to this premise shortly.
FantaRin_The_First
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Thanks, Originy... Methinks is starting to think that Asgore is probably stronger than what he let on in his Boss Battle if he managed to stop several humans and actually take their souls. Darn you, Undertale, for not having any showy feats! If Deltarune somehow connects directly back to Undertale and/or Toby lets out some WOG to help strengthen Undertale, I hope to goodness that Undertale might be able to get a buff and at least enter Building Level to Large Building range.
Deleted member 16409
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So, Humans could RESET which means they just gave up on one moment, and Asgore doesn't feel very surprised when we talk to Asgore about how much times he killed us and in the fight we reminding him Chara because he told us after fight that we have same feel of HOPE.
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It's a mess because they pasted the entire back-and-forth argument they had in the OP, and then attempted to use that as leverage to invalidate their opposition by claiming that they "debunked" all counter-arguments.
GodlyCharmander
He/Him- 5,744
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Let's do this again. I'll just provide evidence beyond reasonable doubt to end this.
First, why do we consider human SOULs to be 8-B?
No, no, read this, I know it will sound like I'm repeating myself, but you need to follow the line of reasoning.
Why? Because of this statement from the ancient readings:
This is the reason why SOULs are 8-B, beyond any reasonable doubt.
"So why? Why does Frisk scale to this power just by peaking Determination?"
Quite simple my fellow, the reason why human SOULs are so much stronger than monster's, is because of Determination, and nothing else.
And oh boy, can I prove that.
The literal next ancient text states the following.
This is literally a follow-up to the previous text describing the power of human SOULs,
"It's power is greater than nearly all monsters, and it's power allows it to persist after death"
Same context.
Now, let's go to the TRUE LAB.
We know the thing Alphys discovers is determination, so this entry alone already implies that DT is the power of the SOUL.
"it" is very blantantly in context with her first entry.
She is saying she extracted the power of SOUL, which is determination.
Furthermore, she states Determination is the power that allows the SOUL to persist after death. The same power described to be stronger than all the monsters combined in the ancient texts!
And that's it, human SOULs are 8-B because of determination. So if you have a peak in Determination, you are using the peak of your SOUL's power.
"Well, can you prove Frisk can peak?"
Yes.
Frisk's determination is literally the greatest shown in the entire game, being able to control time and space based on the resolve to change fate alone.
They peaked against Asriel, as they literally refused to die due to determination alone. This is the greatest showcase of determination ever.
And we know determination needs to be extremely high in order to control the timeline.
Omega Flowey did things not even Frisk was capable of, SAVE state, and LOAD state, without the need to die. Just his will alone to change fate (Frisk dodging his attack) is enough to make the timeline snap back to the save slot.
Omega Flowey also have 6 SAVE slots, one for each SOUL, which he can use freely, which proves he can use DT from all 6 SOULs.
Both Frisk, and Omega Flowey can use the fullest extent of their Determination. They should scale to their respective values. (Though Frisk just scales to it at their peak)
I hope this response was enough to justify our current ratings.
First, why do we consider human SOULs to be 8-B?
No, no, read this, I know it will sound like I'm repeating myself, but you need to follow the line of reasoning.
Why? Because of this statement from the ancient readings:
This is the reason why SOULs are 8-B, beyond any reasonable doubt.
"So why? Why does Frisk scale to this power just by peaking Determination?"
Quite simple my fellow, the reason why human SOULs are so much stronger than monster's, is because of Determination, and nothing else.
And oh boy, can I prove that.
The literal next ancient text states the following.
This is literally a follow-up to the previous text describing the power of human SOULs,
"It's power is greater than nearly all monsters, and it's power allows it to persist after death"
Same context.
Now, let's go to the TRUE LAB.
We know the thing Alphys discovers is determination, so this entry alone already implies that DT is the power of the SOUL.
"it" is very blantantly in context with her first entry.
She is saying she extracted the power of SOUL, which is determination.
Furthermore, she states Determination is the power that allows the SOUL to persist after death. The same power described to be stronger than all the monsters combined in the ancient texts!
And that's it, human SOULs are 8-B because of determination. So if you have a peak in Determination, you are using the peak of your SOUL's power.
"Well, can you prove Frisk can peak?"
Yes.
Frisk's determination is literally the greatest shown in the entire game, being able to control time and space based on the resolve to change fate alone.
They peaked against Asriel, as they literally refused to die due to determination alone. This is the greatest showcase of determination ever.
And we know determination needs to be extremely high in order to control the timeline.
Omega Flowey did things not even Frisk was capable of, SAVE state, and LOAD state, without the need to die. Just his will alone to change fate (Frisk dodging his attack) is enough to make the timeline snap back to the save slot.
Omega Flowey also have 6 SAVE slots, one for each SOUL, which he can use freely, which proves he can use DT from all 6 SOULs.
Both Frisk, and Omega Flowey can use the fullest extent of their Determination. They should scale to their respective values. (Though Frisk just scales to it at their peak)
I hope this response was enough to justify our current ratings.
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- #78
No, her soul is weaker than Asgore's as it didn't persist after death, and Asgore is weaker than Undyne. And there isn't any example of determination on monsters failing to boost their magical attacks (At least not from monsters without messed up bodies that barely hold toghether).
No, but the weaker character does have to show a 8 kiloton feat
Still 3 examples of determination boosts being unrelated to how strong your soul is.
Because is the power of her soul + determination. Also read above.
The Waterfall Glyphs very obviously predate the Lab entry 5, which given the way it was written we can deduce is the first documentation of Determination.
Moreover, the Lab entry 2 makes mention of "soul power", meaning monsters already had a measurement for soul strenght before the discovery of determination, yet Alphys goes out of her way to make a new term for it as if "soul power" and "determination" weren't synonyms, AND on top of that, the first thing Alphys does is give determination attributes that:
1) Aren't related to AP
2) Are present in characters that aren't 8-B
*Toriel, Asgore, and the 6 human's souls persisted after death.
*Undyne the Undying had the will to keep living
*Frisk had the resolve to change fate for the entire game
So if Determination and Soul Power aren't the same, the documented propeties of Determination aren't related to AP, and all the things that Determination can do can be accomplished without being 8-B: What reason do we have to rate any character 8-B / 8-A based on Determination alone?
Loading already does that without needing the full power of your soul, and even without needing a soul. Also, the second greatest, not the greastest
Yes, strong enough to be nearly one-shoted by someone with less determination and no soul power
You... don't need to die to load. Hell, Flowey could do it (Before Frisk showed up) even thought he had less determination than Frisk at the beginning of the game.
And Determination is not Soul Power, so that peak is a big fat "Unknown".
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Flowey couldn't have coexisted with any of the 6 humans when they were alive. Otherwise, given his desires to get the human souls, he would have tried to kill them and get their souls.
GodlyCharmander
He/Him- 5,744
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That's just inconsistent. Determination is what gives a SOUL the strength to persist after death.
Also, it's literally stated that DT empowers the SOUL, I don't care what you're arguing about.
The 800 Ton character has to show a 8 Kiloton feat. Great logic Dante.
None.
Determination empowers and come from the SOUL.
Don't you say?!?!
That's exactly what I'm talking about, they're documenting Determination and saying it's because of THAT power that Human SOULs are stronger than almost all monster's combined. That's literally the only thing human SOULs have that Monster's don't.
The leap in logic is Olympic.
No, it doesn't mean that, it doesn't even imply that.
Having a terminology for SOUL Power doesn't mean you know what that power is, nor does it mean you can measure it. Alphys know 7 Humans made the barrier through their SOUL, using their power.
And then she DISCOVERS Determination on Entry 5, after this. Of course she didn't call SOUL power Determination before, she hasn't discovered it yet. Absolutely unbearable reasoning.
You're absolutely unreasonable.
Alphys not connecting DT to AP is IRRELEVANT.
Her statement proves the power the ancient readings stated to be greater than all monster's is Determination.
She doesn't have to make the connection, it already exists. Christ.
Moreover, YES. PEOPLE CAN HAVE DETERMINATION AND NOT BE 8-B!!
What are you even talking about, what the hell are you even saying, I am not saying Determination gives you 8-B by default.
Asgore, Toriel and Asriel's quantities of DT are far below humans, just like any other monster's.
The Human SOULs DTs are 8-B just like any other.
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