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Fixing Potential Issues in Bowser's Page (aka The Great Conspiracy Against Bowser)
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Whataboutisms are not an argument, how many damn times does this have to be said before it gets through the galactic singularity that is your skull? We couldn't care less about Sonic on this thread. I think this is report-worthy at this point, considering you have mentioned Sonic repeatedly on like every Mario CRT for no reason other then "Well but Sonic has this" like it matters for a thread about a ****** Italian Plumber that jumps on turtles and Dinosaur Turtles to save a princess.
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I'm just gonna say sorry if I felt a little aggressive or something earlier. I was both tired and just aggravated because this was all literally already talked about before.
Like DDM said, it's clear that even without the guides space and time on a universal scale were effected. If it weren't, we wouldn't have Dino Piranha being revived and on their planet or many of the NPCs that existed throughout the universe existing there now. Hell, black holes already effect space-time even if on a minor scale. This one was large enough to be considered a threat needed to be stopped by multiple Lumas who can becomes Galaxies and even Power Stars. I don't see anything contradicting it being Uni+
There is absolutely no way the Grand Star doesn't scale as it was literally the sole energy source for the Reactor. It makes no sense for the Grand Star to be below Lumas either.
No one was amped in Galaxy 1. Even IF you argued Mario was amped by the Luma and ignored the power it gave him just being the Star Spin and spaceflight, then Bowser was literally fighting a Mario, by your own admissions, "amped" by the Luma that fought against Grand Star Bowser and other threats using the Grand Star's power to fuel them while in base in the first Galaxy game.
People have brought up the Sammer's Kingdom feat in this thread, but isn't that feat exactly like this one? Uni event happens, a screen transition happens with nothing shown between the destruction and the characters suddenly appearing knocked out/unconscious laying on the ground of a random place? And also wouldn't that feat back up the claim they could just tank this because nothing shows explicitly that they didn't?
Even more to add onto that, again, Bowser appears hurt. Rubbing at the back of his head and falling back, struggling to stand. It's clear to me he's reeling from something that just happened. IF he were reset like the rest, wouldn't he be celebrating with the others in the Star Festival? His own son and a few enemies appear, celebrating with everyone else. It doesn't make any sense for him to behave like that when no one else who got reset did. They look to be like they've just been celebrating the Star Festival the whole time, as the decorum is still there, showing either this all takes place in a day or that time got messed with as well. More proof time was effected and it's taking place during the Star Festival is the fact that the 100% ending shows the Baby Luma appearing back on the Gateway Planet where he originally started at the beginning of the game, heavily implying that only a few things were altered in the reset while some things stayed the same.
Also, they acknowledge Rosalina in the sky who continues what she says to Mario before he suddenly wakes up in the grass. Mario (or Luigi) also excitedly welcomes the "New Galaxy" clearly aware of the events that transpired. If they were reset they would've had their behaviors and memories altered like the rest I'd imagine.
And also like DDM said, the guide isn't completely unreliable. It supports the actual events but perhaps maybe got Bowser's intentions wrong, although you can argue that was his intent in the Japanese version due to "my new universe" being mentioned and it not making any sense to be him expanding his empire across the universe he already reached the ends of.
There's also the fact that if it was just expanding his empire, why the hell would he need the Grand Star's energies at all to do that? What's the purpose of the Grand Star if not to do what it does best and create something, as it has been used to do in the past few reactors? Why would he need them to produce Dark Matter, Stars, and Galaxies and then have his grand plan be to just make a planet/star at the center and simply expand forces that are already scattered across and even positioned at the ends of the universe? It doesn't make sense and goes against all logical and contextual evidence within the game. It would just induce a major plot hole to consider that interpretation the correct and valid one.
Like DDM said, it's clear that even without the guides space and time on a universal scale were effected. If it weren't, we wouldn't have Dino Piranha being revived and on their planet or many of the NPCs that existed throughout the universe existing there now. Hell, black holes already effect space-time even if on a minor scale. This one was large enough to be considered a threat needed to be stopped by multiple Lumas who can becomes Galaxies and even Power Stars. I don't see anything contradicting it being Uni+
There is absolutely no way the Grand Star doesn't scale as it was literally the sole energy source for the Reactor. It makes no sense for the Grand Star to be below Lumas either.
No one was amped in Galaxy 1. Even IF you argued Mario was amped by the Luma and ignored the power it gave him just being the Star Spin and spaceflight, then Bowser was literally fighting a Mario, by your own admissions, "amped" by the Luma that fought against Grand Star Bowser and other threats using the Grand Star's power to fuel them while in base in the first Galaxy game.
People have brought up the Sammer's Kingdom feat in this thread, but isn't that feat exactly like this one? Uni event happens, a screen transition happens with nothing shown between the destruction and the characters suddenly appearing knocked out/unconscious laying on the ground of a random place? And also wouldn't that feat back up the claim they could just tank this because nothing shows explicitly that they didn't?
Even more to add onto that, again, Bowser appears hurt. Rubbing at the back of his head and falling back, struggling to stand. It's clear to me he's reeling from something that just happened. IF he were reset like the rest, wouldn't he be celebrating with the others in the Star Festival? His own son and a few enemies appear, celebrating with everyone else. It doesn't make any sense for him to behave like that when no one else who got reset did. They look to be like they've just been celebrating the Star Festival the whole time, as the decorum is still there, showing either this all takes place in a day or that time got messed with as well. More proof time was effected and it's taking place during the Star Festival is the fact that the 100% ending shows the Baby Luma appearing back on the Gateway Planet where he originally started at the beginning of the game, heavily implying that only a few things were altered in the reset while some things stayed the same.
Also, they acknowledge Rosalina in the sky who continues what she says to Mario before he suddenly wakes up in the grass. Mario (or Luigi) also excitedly welcomes the "New Galaxy" clearly aware of the events that transpired. If they were reset they would've had their behaviors and memories altered like the rest I'd imagine.
And also like DDM said, the guide isn't completely unreliable. It supports the actual events but perhaps maybe got Bowser's intentions wrong, although you can argue that was his intent in the Japanese version due to "my new universe" being mentioned and it not making any sense to be him expanding his empire across the universe he already reached the ends of.
There's also the fact that if it was just expanding his empire, why the hell would he need the Grand Star's energies at all to do that? What's the purpose of the Grand Star if not to do what it does best and create something, as it has been used to do in the past few reactors? Why would he need them to produce Dark Matter, Stars, and Galaxies and then have his grand plan be to just make a planet/star at the center and simply expand forces that are already scattered across and even positioned at the ends of the universe? It doesn't make sense and goes against all logical and contextual evidence within the game. It would just induce a major plot hole to consider that interpretation the correct and valid one.
DragonLord
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The Universe is extremely Vast, if you had a straight line from the edge and the center, you’d have less then 1% of the universe, unless there’s a specific statement he actually did cross the entire 100% of the universe this is unsupported and creating a energy source to expand would still be beneficial
plus, his empire is clearly not absolute, as even the Bee Queen is still in power despite his galactic force
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Now that's a knee-slapper, I have no idea why you put Sonic in the same sentence as THE verses of scrutiny
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Kek, you weren't around here a year ago
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W-well, you weren't here TWO years ago, time gets muddled ok?
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I've been lurking here long enough to remember H1C Bill and Heralds were MHS+
ShakeResounding
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Take it to a wall if you wanna continue, please.
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Yes, please. I admire the good-hearted nature of the convo in this thread but it also is a derail and not entirely relevant to the OP.
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The Bee Queen does not rule the universe.
That's like saying because he doesn't kidnap Daisy that Bowser's plots to rule the world are negated because she's still around.
It's frankly a silly argument.
As for the 1% thing, Bowser literally already has portal creating ships at his disposal that could cross vast expanses of space. It's illogical to presume that because he clearly can reach the ends of the universe as well as the center that he needed to expend the effort to use a macguffin related to power to simply spread his forces across a universe he already showed he can easily expand across without.
These assumptions you're making are illogical. He easily could and already did expand his empire across multiple galactic clusters. The map is supposedly of the entire universe as well and his forces were spread across all of it.
Do you acknowledge how ridiculous this argument sounds? Rosalina herself said he has the power to cross the universe thanks to the Power Stars. He easily shows he can do this because even a regular minion Magikoopa could just warp the castle away to the center of the universe with ease. She also regularly observes the entire universe and traverses and protects it. Her saying he can cross it is saying he has her capabilities too.
It takes far more effort and roundabout interpretations to assume, "Well Bowser didn't conquer all of it, I mean he can reach the ends of the universe and the center quite easily and has multiple universal teleportation methods going on but we don't see him conquer the whole thing even though the map is of the entire universe which his forces were spread across, so he can't do it without the Grand Star and that's why he needed it" when all context says otherwise.
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DragonLord
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If Bowser’s universal empire was absolute he would have no trouble overthrowing a bee, yet his forces still do not own that planet nor the several other planets
Plenty of verses have Ships that can cross vast spaces, they still don’t always have control of the entire universe, again imagine you have 50 ships that can cross to the edge of the universe, you’d not even be able to conquer 1% of the universe with that little of an army, plus, in game we see that Bowser has an energy problem with the Grand Stars being drained, it’s unlikely the same wouldn’t happen to the Power Stars
Source?
I don’t think you understand how extremely vast “Universal Domination” is, it takes way more of an assumption that just a few fleets in space means the entire universe especially when the villain itself has that as there goal, and in this post you have not found direct evidence Bowser was already ruling the Universe, only that it’s “illogical” he didn’t already, when logically even with the army seen in game, he’d need a lot more to conquer the entire universe
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Hm, you know what?
If you really want legitimate support for your argument that Bowser just wanted to conquer the universe, then you should use the NPC dialogue of the Toads and Luigi.
Luigi expresses worry that if he doesn't retrieve the Power Stars "the universe will belong to Bowser" and the Blue Toad states that "Bowser wants the Power Stars to become 'King of the Universe'"
Though it's worth noting these characters aren't Bowser himself and are just speculating, so not really entirely reliable, and all they do is mention the Power Stars, not what he'll do or is doing with the Grand Stars specifically.
Just to give your own argument the backing it needs to be fair. I'll let others decide what they want with this information.
If you really want legitimate support for your argument that Bowser just wanted to conquer the universe, then you should use the NPC dialogue of the Toads and Luigi.
Luigi expresses worry that if he doesn't retrieve the Power Stars "the universe will belong to Bowser" and the Blue Toad states that "Bowser wants the Power Stars to become 'King of the Universe'"
Though it's worth noting these characters aren't Bowser himself and are just speculating, so not really entirely reliable, and all they do is mention the Power Stars, not what he'll do or is doing with the Grand Stars specifically.
Just to give your own argument the backing it needs to be fair. I'll let others decide what they want with this information.
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Sure, why not. Let me in on the conspiracy next time, alright? I agree fra.
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I disagree. What DDM said makes sense and the Grand Star still scales/upscales from the Power Star.
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I still think it's an incredibly big plot hole and contrivance that the mans had already spread throughout the universe, has easy methods of doing so, clearly did it in a very short timeframe, and was already literally establishing his galactic dominion, but apparently THAT'S what he was saying in that statement and not that he'll create a new universe with the Grand Star to rule over and newly spread his forces across, but I guess that part of my argument I can brush aside if need be.
The rest of my argument in that post I will remain firm by, however.
The rest of my argument in that post I will remain firm by, however.
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It was becayse the argument was that Bowser's Japanese quote simply referred to his plan of universal conquest, but I find it too contradictory with stuff from the game personally. For me it makes far more sense contextually to assume he meant he will create a new universe.
But it's whatever.
Grand Stars should still have the AP due to powering something that caused a clear uni+ feat even without a guide or statement from Bowser.
Bowser should have been using most if not all of the Grand Star's power throughout both games. There's no reason to assume he didn't when he had no qualms almost killing them by using up almost all of their power in the first game and then in the second sought out more power draining it from Rosalina and the Observatory which has 114 Power Stars plus 6 Grand Stars powering it despite already having absorbed a single Grand Star. The last thing would not make sense to do if he's not absorbing all of their power.
So yes, it is still scalable. I don't want to bring up other verses, but I will keep it vague and general and say there are multiple verses I can think of where "well what if they didn't absorb all the power or use all of the power of this object" would not only be denied because it's a silly assumption without any proof the character clearly couldn't, but also if it were to be applied here would heavily effect those other verses as a result. This isn't a whataboutism it's just acknowledging double standards and hoping to revise them with whatever outcome this thread recieves
But it's whatever.
Grand Stars should still have the AP due to powering something that caused a clear uni+ feat even without a guide or statement from Bowser.
Bowser should have been using most if not all of the Grand Star's power throughout both games. There's no reason to assume he didn't when he had no qualms almost killing them by using up almost all of their power in the first game and then in the second sought out more power draining it from Rosalina and the Observatory which has 114 Power Stars plus 6 Grand Stars powering it despite already having absorbed a single Grand Star. The last thing would not make sense to do if he's not absorbing all of their power.
So yes, it is still scalable. I don't want to bring up other verses, but I will keep it vague and general and say there are multiple verses I can think of where "well what if they didn't absorb all the power or use all of the power of this object" would not only be denied because it's a silly assumption without any proof the character clearly couldn't, but also if it were to be applied here would heavily effect those other verses as a result. This isn't a whataboutism it's just acknowledging double standards and hoping to revise them with whatever outcome this thread recieves
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I would agree, except... it didn't
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What does that prove?
Is this the thing I mentioned of stars being in the background?
Yeah, I was just playing devil's advocate. Maybe the black hole being reversed wasn't extending across the universe necessarily but the blast at the end seems to encompass the full thing. We also see that it did because of the fact it effected characters from across the entire universe who show up in the ending. We know It's the entire universe because the Map says "Universe Map".
In Japan it's called "Grand Galaxy Map" but also in Japan many characters refer to the entire universe and that you have to save it as well as developers confirming the setting is the universe, not the galaxy, which gives the English translation more credit and likely means "Grand Galaxy" is just a fancy term for universe.
At the absolute worst it had to have effected multiple galaxies and can also effect space-time itself from the heavy implication residents across the universe and even a species you made extinct return to the day of the Star Festival in the ending, and a 100% ending showing the Baby Luma is exactly where he was when you started the game on the Gateway planet, an indication it's like an alt timeline with some differences, going along well with Rosie's statement.
There's also Rosalina's words of "but the cycle never repeats itself in quite the same way. So you'll see..." followed by Mario waking up during the festival with enemies dancing, celebrating, and pacified and characters from different galaxies suddenly on the planet despite having no feasible way to have gotten there unless they were effected by the blast.
Is this the thing I mentioned of stars being in the background?
Yeah, I was just playing devil's advocate. Maybe the black hole being reversed wasn't extending across the universe necessarily but the blast at the end seems to encompass the full thing. We also see that it did because of the fact it effected characters from across the entire universe who show up in the ending. We know It's the entire universe because the Map says "Universe Map".
In Japan it's called "Grand Galaxy Map" but also in Japan many characters refer to the entire universe and that you have to save it as well as developers confirming the setting is the universe, not the galaxy, which gives the English translation more credit and likely means "Grand Galaxy" is just a fancy term for universe.
At the absolute worst it had to have effected multiple galaxies and can also effect space-time itself from the heavy implication residents across the universe and even a species you made extinct return to the day of the Star Festival in the ending, and a 100% ending showing the Baby Luma is exactly where he was when you started the game on the Gateway planet, an indication it's like an alt timeline with some differences, going along well with Rosie's statement.
There's also Rosalina's words of "but the cycle never repeats itself in quite the same way. So you'll see..." followed by Mario waking up during the festival with enemies dancing, celebrating, and pacified and characters from different galaxies suddenly on the planet despite having no feasible way to have gotten there unless they were effected by the blast.
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None.
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So we have 2 possibilities
1. The destruction of Bowsers Galaxy was not universal in scale, but had some affect of manipulating time to put everyone back in place, the outcome here is that Bowser did not tank universal destruction
2. The destruction of Bowsers Galaxy was universal in scale, and completely reset the universe, even reviving character who canonically die, the outcome here is that Bowser was simply reset as per the way the event worked and does not tank universal destruction
1. The destruction of Bowsers Galaxy was not universal in scale, but had some affect of manipulating time to put everyone back in place, the outcome here is that Bowser did not tank universal destruction
2. The destruction of Bowsers Galaxy was universal in scale, and completely reset the universe, even reviving character who canonically die, the outcome here is that Bowser was simply reset as per the way the event worked and does not tank universal destruction
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This seems like a sensible summary.
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Jeez.
It wouldn't make sense if Bowser didn't tank it because he's the only one who reacts in such a way that appears hurt or dazed. Why would he be the ONLY one acting like that?
If you throw out guides there's no proof Rosalina shielded them, and nothing saying they didn't just outright survive it. Mario even appears to Rosalina right after the blast and she speaks to him before it fades to white again and he suddenly wakes up back on his planet, continuing where her speech left off when they look up at her. Mario/Luigi will then welcome the "New Galaxy" clearly aware of the events that transpired.
Logicaly everyone should have been recreated at the same time, so then, again, why are Mario, Peach, and Bowser knocked out from something while the rest of the population are simply celebrating as if nothing happened? Why is Bowser the only one of the knocked out characters to stumble, struggle to stand, and groan, rubbing at his head and shaking it as if brushing off some kind of pain when he was at the epicenter of the blast previously? It makes no sense for him to be reeling from something that clearly hasn't affected anyone else and/or never happened because of the reset. Bowser Jr. was close to the epicenter too since he fell toward the artifical sun which was like right near the Reactor but he's not in pain or knocked out in the ending.
The only logical explanation are that Mario, Peach, and Bowser weren't reset. They have knowledge of past events, were knocked out from something unlike the rest, and in Bowser's case he even goes further and shows he's in some kind of pain shaking his head while rubbing at it and not being able to stand. It makes no sense that they are behaving differently and appear to us knocked out when literally everyone else that got reset are up and about, energetically celebrating, even enemies and a carnivorous species who upon hatching literally attacked the first sign of life it saw. If they were all reset then they should've been remade at the exact same time, and there's no good explanation for why an entire universe's (as I explained many times already, the setting was of the universe, many characters refer to the universe, and the English translation clearly shows it's the entire universe from the Universe Map among other things) population getting recreated are happy, dancing, and celebrating while Mario, Peach, and Bowser are conspicuously unconscious if they all got reset which should've happened at the same point in time for everyone. How else can one interpret the reason for why they are clearly affected differently than all of the other characters with one even in a clear daze and pain other then going with the simplest solution of "they tanked it"? Literally any other assumption requires way more convoluted explanation.
"Oh, well they died and got reset like everyone else."
Okay, but then if they were reset like everyone else and died like everyone else why are their behaviors different when everyone should've been recreated at the same time? Why are they the only ones unconscious? Logically they would be up and about, celebrating like everyone else if they got reset. And yet, they aren't. There's a clear contrast between everyone else who got reset and them and that cannot be denied.
"Rosalina spoke to him in his dreams!!!"
Okay but then did Rosalina also inexplicably talk to Peach as well as Bowser, a person she would have no reason to talk to, who were also unconscious? This is also not supported because literally when Mario does wake up Rosalina continues where her speech to him left off clearly existing in a physical place. Dream Manipulation or entering dreams is not a power she can be proven to have, and likewise this interpretation is just a headcanon.
"Bowser was just feeling groggy/tired and/or he was shaken up from having died and come back"
Okay, so then why aren't literally everyone else behaving this way? It's illogical to think he'd be the only character severely impacted from having experienced death when the blast reached them all. And, again, it's weird for him to even be knocked out in the first place compared to the rest of the population, and as for being groggy, I don't just wake up, try to stand, stumble, fall to the ground, rub at my head, and then shake it too when I'm just waking up. I've never experienced this, and I've never seen a supposed grogginess like Bowser's portrayed in media either, especially the rubbing and shaking the head part. That to me more clearly shows a headache or a general pain trying to be brushed off. This interpretation frankly would assume Bowser has something like a severe sleep condition and/or severe case of fatigue for no reason, because no healthy and functioning person would wake up and act the way he did. If his behavior was nornalized then, again, why aren't literally everyone else severely fatigued and weak to the point they can't stand? They were all created at the same time supposedly if you even buy that.
So really, do tell me what other, simpler explanations there can be for this other than simply tanking it? There's enough proof in the fact Mario, Peach, and Bowser aren't effected in the way everyone else was effected and the fact Bowser was in pain and/or dazed FROM something. If he was reset he wouldn't be feeling any of that because it wouldn't have happened nor carried over. It takes a lot more convoluted explanation trying to say how "oh, maybe he just remembered/kept his memories" when everyone else wasn't feeling the same way as him. Why would he specifically keep his memories but others wouldn't? You see what I'm getting at? These interpretations are easily picked apart and require way more out-of-the-box thinking than the simple explanation that they survived unlike the rest.
But hey, if we used the guides they clearly didn't tank it. But we can't do that because it had one little contradiction. A pity.
It wouldn't make sense if Bowser didn't tank it because he's the only one who reacts in such a way that appears hurt or dazed. Why would he be the ONLY one acting like that?
If you throw out guides there's no proof Rosalina shielded them, and nothing saying they didn't just outright survive it. Mario even appears to Rosalina right after the blast and she speaks to him before it fades to white again and he suddenly wakes up back on his planet, continuing where her speech left off when they look up at her. Mario/Luigi will then welcome the "New Galaxy" clearly aware of the events that transpired.
Logicaly everyone should have been recreated at the same time, so then, again, why are Mario, Peach, and Bowser knocked out from something while the rest of the population are simply celebrating as if nothing happened? Why is Bowser the only one of the knocked out characters to stumble, struggle to stand, and groan, rubbing at his head and shaking it as if brushing off some kind of pain when he was at the epicenter of the blast previously? It makes no sense for him to be reeling from something that clearly hasn't affected anyone else and/or never happened because of the reset. Bowser Jr. was close to the epicenter too since he fell toward the artifical sun which was like right near the Reactor but he's not in pain or knocked out in the ending.
The only logical explanation are that Mario, Peach, and Bowser weren't reset. They have knowledge of past events, were knocked out from something unlike the rest, and in Bowser's case he even goes further and shows he's in some kind of pain shaking his head while rubbing at it and not being able to stand. It makes no sense that they are behaving differently and appear to us knocked out when literally everyone else that got reset are up and about, energetically celebrating, even enemies and a carnivorous species who upon hatching literally attacked the first sign of life it saw. If they were all reset then they should've been remade at the exact same time, and there's no good explanation for why an entire universe's (as I explained many times already, the setting was of the universe, many characters refer to the universe, and the English translation clearly shows it's the entire universe from the Universe Map among other things) population getting recreated are happy, dancing, and celebrating while Mario, Peach, and Bowser are conspicuously unconscious if they all got reset which should've happened at the same point in time for everyone. How else can one interpret the reason for why they are clearly affected differently than all of the other characters with one even in a clear daze and pain other then going with the simplest solution of "they tanked it"? Literally any other assumption requires way more convoluted explanation.
"Oh, well they died and got reset like everyone else."
Okay, but then if they were reset like everyone else and died like everyone else why are their behaviors different when everyone should've been recreated at the same time? Why are they the only ones unconscious? Logically they would be up and about, celebrating like everyone else if they got reset. And yet, they aren't. There's a clear contrast between everyone else who got reset and them and that cannot be denied.
"Rosalina spoke to him in his dreams!!!"
Okay but then did Rosalina also inexplicably talk to Peach as well as Bowser, a person she would have no reason to talk to, who were also unconscious? This is also not supported because literally when Mario does wake up Rosalina continues where her speech to him left off clearly existing in a physical place. Dream Manipulation or entering dreams is not a power she can be proven to have, and likewise this interpretation is just a headcanon.
"Bowser was just feeling groggy/tired and/or he was shaken up from having died and come back"
Okay, so then why aren't literally everyone else behaving this way? It's illogical to think he'd be the only character severely impacted from having experienced death when the blast reached them all. And, again, it's weird for him to even be knocked out in the first place compared to the rest of the population, and as for being groggy, I don't just wake up, try to stand, stumble, fall to the ground, rub at my head, and then shake it too when I'm just waking up. I've never experienced this, and I've never seen a supposed grogginess like Bowser's portrayed in media either, especially the rubbing and shaking the head part. That to me more clearly shows a headache or a general pain trying to be brushed off. This interpretation frankly would assume Bowser has something like a severe sleep condition and/or severe case of fatigue for no reason, because no healthy and functioning person would wake up and act the way he did. If his behavior was nornalized then, again, why aren't literally everyone else severely fatigued and weak to the point they can't stand? They were all created at the same time supposedly if you even buy that.
So really, do tell me what other, simpler explanations there can be for this other than simply tanking it? There's enough proof in the fact Mario, Peach, and Bowser aren't effected in the way everyone else was effected and the fact Bowser was in pain and/or dazed FROM something. If he was reset he wouldn't be feeling any of that because it wouldn't have happened nor carried over. It takes a lot more convoluted explanation trying to say how "oh, maybe he just remembered/kept his memories" when everyone else wasn't feeling the same way as him. Why would he specifically keep his memories but others wouldn't? You see what I'm getting at? These interpretations are easily picked apart and require way more out-of-the-box thinking than the simple explanation that they survived unlike the rest.
But hey, if we used the guides they clearly didn't tank it. But we can't do that because it had one little contradiction. A pity.
DragonLord
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I mean in the end, the characters being sleepy matters less then the fact then the fact everyone has unexplainably moved from the center of the universe to the Mushroom Kingdom, that alone points to tampering by Rosalina, them being reset in the blast, or just a simple time rewind
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Ooooh I wanna so bring up another verse's example right now so ******* badly.
But again, I will keep it general. In other revision threads on this site, a claim that the miraculous could happen because fiction gonna fiction is basically what ended up keeping the feat viable.
If we want to avoid being hypocrites we wouldn't succumb to the idea that "miraculously finding themselves on Earth" after a space blast invalidates a feat because miraculous cases happen a ton in fiction.
But even considering those: A reset -- I already explained how that is not really an argument to stand on; a simple time rewind would not have placed characters who originally existed in different galaxies on their home planet; and "tampering" from Rosalina could be just as simple as returning them to their home planet and if you DO consider this would be almost entirely like what the guide says happened, which would add credibility if anything.
But again, I will keep it general. In other revision threads on this site, a claim that the miraculous could happen because fiction gonna fiction is basically what ended up keeping the feat viable.
If we want to avoid being hypocrites we wouldn't succumb to the idea that "miraculously finding themselves on Earth" after a space blast invalidates a feat because miraculous cases happen a ton in fiction.
But even considering those: A reset -- I already explained how that is not really an argument to stand on; a simple time rewind would not have placed characters who originally existed in different galaxies on their home planet; and "tampering" from Rosalina could be just as simple as returning them to their home planet and if you DO consider this would be almost entirely like what the guide says happened, which would add credibility if anything.
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I agree "miraculously finding themselves on Earth after a space blast" shouldn't invalidate a feat. Its how the event was written because writers can make that happen with fiction.
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Glad you agree on that, Medeus.
So this means that you agree that the universe was not "destroyed and recreated" since none of that is actually mentioned anywhere. And I do agree with you the the blast undeniably did some sort of reset. I don't know where you're getting the space thing, but at the very least, it is a feat of time manipulation over a large range since it put everyone back in place. I don't see how that is Low 2-C AP.
This is a weird assumption to make when we only see the grand star fueled reactor exploding as a mini supernova and then forming a black hole. Only after hundreds of Lumas combine their power against the black hole, does the final explosion take place. So the final feat should obviously not scale to the Grand Star, instead, it should scale to the combined power of the Grand Star + hundreds of Lumas. Combination attacks often give way higher results than simply addition, and as our standards on combination attacks say, the increase in the amount of Grand Star's power due to the Lumas interference should be treated as unquantifiable.
It's fine. This stuff has been talked about many times from the looks of it, where at one time it got passed. And I can understand your frustration since I encounter already discussed topics, almost every other day.
Lumas are 4-A normally and only 3-A via transformation. I just wanted to point out that this argument, while I know is not your primary one (which is the same as DDM), but it isn't usable as a supporting statement.
Seol already pointed out later that in every scenario, if you are claiming everything was reset back to the way it was, then Bowser supposedly "tanking" it was also reversed, meaning he shouldn't feel pain because of whatever happened in that blast.
As for why Bowser stumbled, I don't see how in any universe you can claim that is sufficient proof of someone surviving an explosion that was reset, and by taking into account the context. When everything is reset, they all wake up from their sleep/unconscious state. Mario and Peach wake up very slowly and they are still sitting, but Bowser wakes up with a start and immediately stands on his feet, and stumbles. Like, try doing that after you wake up in the morning after a regular night's sleep and the same thing will happen to you.
That's also a weird assumption to make. Like, a time-reset doesn't necessarily mean that you also lose the memories of the events. But your statement would definitely apply to the scenario of universe being "destroyed and recreated".
I have gone over this in detail in section 1. The game states that Bowser was going to build a planet/star/galaxy (depending on the translation) for his Galactic Empire, and wanted to rule the universe (that's where the mention comes from) through his army. The guide states that Bowser wanted to "destroy and recreate" the universe. Both are fundamentally very different things. According to the canon rules, it invalidates the guide. That much is extremely undeniable and sorry, but no, I am obviously not going to accept something that violates the standards.
Bowser answered this question himself. He clearly said it will be the core/base of his operations. Just like your country needs a capital from where everything is governed, it makes perfect sense for Bowser to have his headquarter built at the very center of the universe which he wants to rule.
That's okay. But we are talking about Bowser's plan of having complete control over the entire universe.
Just because a single person can reach everywhere with a portal, doesn't mean they conquer those lands since he still can't be everywhere at all times. And just because his forces are spread across multiple galaxies and even the universe, also does not mean his forces are in control of everything. The US government has their army stationed across the globe in multiple countries and the president can also visit all those countries freely in a matter of hours. Does that mean he has full reign over the world? Unless the game states that he controls the entire universe, we can't assume that on the basis of "he can travel anywhere and he has his army across galaxies". Because those facts don't at all point to the conclusion you are making.
Exactly. Miraculous cases happen in fiction, and the main characters most often than not retain the memories they went through whenever some kind of time reset happens. It doesn't invalidate the feat, but you can't claim that just because they remember the events, they "tanked" the explosion. In your own words, something miraculous happened that moved them from the center of the universe to the Mushroom Kingdom. Is it explained what exactly happened? No. All we got to see is a conversation between Mario and Rosalina. The entire "tanked" part is based on speculation that ignores that miraculous things are happening in this event. The context of the game implies that a miraculous unexplained event occurred, that was kind of like a reset. We can all agree that the feat is vague, that's why in Section 3 of the OP, I mentioned that this needs to be discussed in detail.
Neither does the "destruction and recreation" of the universe. Nothing explains it. That is the point. Something like this should be explained in the game and we shouldn't be making outright weird assumptions to explain the miraculous unexplained thing. Maybe the devs wanted a cool ending and they didn't apply reason or logic. But at least we know it's something like a time-reset + transportation thing.
A lot of people have voiced agreements on the thread. Some have voiced their disagreements. Some people agree with different sections and disagree with other sections. I'll try to keep track of it in the OP.
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Isn't a timeline reset treated as Low 2-C anyway? Or I have a page to revise...
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Meh, timeline reset can very well just be timehax with Low 2-C range, or Low 2-C if provided context.
Base statement, timehax is a better explanation
Base statement, timehax is a better explanation
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Oh and since a comparison was brought up with the Sammer Kingdon feat, I'll go into detail about why said comparison is invalid here.
I actually went through the Sammer Kingdom feat earlier, but decided to not make a thread on it, since the feat itself didn't give me enough reason for it. I think the feat is legitimate and here's why:
Here it is different because the explosion itself being Low 2-C comes from a guide statement that directly contradicts the game. We see Rosalina in between the transitions so we know she is involved somehow. And we see that the entire thing was some sort of reset as nothing was really destroyed, with people returning back and the ruined Peach's castle that was also there with Mario, Peach and Bowser in space, being perfectly fine. (Please don't tell me Peach's Castle also "tanked" the explosion). This feat gave me enough reasons to make a thread about it.
I actually went through the Sammer Kingdom feat earlier, but decided to not make a thread on it, since the feat itself didn't give me enough reason for it. I think the feat is legitimate and here's why:
- The game shows they were there when the Sammer Kingdom was destroyed.
- The manual that does not contradict anything also confirms that they were there when it was destroyed.
- Yes, it's vague as to how and why they were pulled out of the Sammer Kingdom after its destruction. Logically, they should have still been in it, if they can just re-enter through a door, but that alone did not give me enough of a reason to doubt the feat. Since I talked to people about it who also don't know the context of why it happened, I chalked it up to PIS.
Here it is different because the explosion itself being Low 2-C comes from a guide statement that directly contradicts the game. We see Rosalina in between the transitions so we know she is involved somehow. And we see that the entire thing was some sort of reset as nothing was really destroyed, with people returning back and the ruined Peach's castle that was also there with Mario, Peach and Bowser in space, being perfectly fine. (Please don't tell me Peach's Castle also "tanked" the explosion). This feat gave me enough reasons to make a thread about it.
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We tend to make logical assumptions with feats and P&A all the time. If you are truly going to give me the "well It's all just assumptions at the end of the day" then please do revise and change the mindset's of the entire wiki for me while you're at it.
"Maybe the devs wanted a cool ending" okay and maybe the devs or creators behind many stories and series didn't intend for their characters to be seen as powerful as they are. This is null.
The Lumas specifcally use their transform powers though, and it'd be silly to argue they weren't using all of the energy they could muster in a literal kamikaze feat.
I also never said it was JUST because they remember, I said they are clearly the odd ones out from the rest of the population that got reset. I also said that because their behaviors are noticeably odd when compared to everyone else if it was a reset as logically everyone should've been remade together. There's also the fact enemies that have no right to be pacified and celebrating are doing so, as if they're all friends and always have been now.
We also KNOW it's a reset because Rosalina's speech talks about the cycle of life and how it begins anew but never in the same way, and Mario at the end excitedly welcoming the new Galaxy. Rosa also mentions the baby Lumas formed from the blast becoming galaxies one day and talks about how stardust from dead atars spreads across the cosmos to be reborn anew. This seems to me like she's saying the old Lumas died, their blast range extended across the cosmos (i.e. universe cause Rosalina literally always refers to the universe), and were reborn into new Lumas that would become galaxies.
Speaking of Lumas, they all combine their transformation efforts to cause the black hole to collapse in on itself and then implode, but the resulting blast has the exact same sound and animation as when the Lumas transform. Given they used their powers of transformation to cause this to happen, it could be inferred that they all merged their transformation powers into a singularity. The only thing bigger than a Galaxy to transform into is the universe itself. And it would make sense that a shit ton of Baby Lumas are born from an event like this since they are literally the building blocks of the universe and every other Luma presumably got caught up in the blast too.
This also all ignores the very blatant fact that there is a canon sequel that clearly shows the newly made universe too. Unless we're going to argue that Galaxy 1 and 2 aren't connected and that that game doesn't contain a clearly different universe.
"Maybe the devs wanted a cool ending" okay and maybe the devs or creators behind many stories and series didn't intend for their characters to be seen as powerful as they are. This is null.
The Lumas specifcally use their transform powers though, and it'd be silly to argue they weren't using all of the energy they could muster in a literal kamikaze feat.
I also never said it was JUST because they remember, I said they are clearly the odd ones out from the rest of the population that got reset. I also said that because their behaviors are noticeably odd when compared to everyone else if it was a reset as logically everyone should've been remade together. There's also the fact enemies that have no right to be pacified and celebrating are doing so, as if they're all friends and always have been now.
We also KNOW it's a reset because Rosalina's speech talks about the cycle of life and how it begins anew but never in the same way, and Mario at the end excitedly welcoming the new Galaxy. Rosa also mentions the baby Lumas formed from the blast becoming galaxies one day and talks about how stardust from dead atars spreads across the cosmos to be reborn anew. This seems to me like she's saying the old Lumas died, their blast range extended across the cosmos (i.e. universe cause Rosalina literally always refers to the universe), and were reborn into new Lumas that would become galaxies.
Speaking of Lumas, they all combine their transformation efforts to cause the black hole to collapse in on itself and then implode, but the resulting blast has the exact same sound and animation as when the Lumas transform. Given they used their powers of transformation to cause this to happen, it could be inferred that they all merged their transformation powers into a singularity. The only thing bigger than a Galaxy to transform into is the universe itself. And it would make sense that a shit ton of Baby Lumas are born from an event like this since they are literally the building blocks of the universe and every other Luma presumably got caught up in the blast too.
This also all ignores the very blatant fact that there is a canon sequel that clearly shows the newly made universe too. Unless we're going to argue that Galaxy 1 and 2 aren't connected and that that game doesn't contain a clearly different universe.
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I'm sorry what? Nothing was destroyed?
How does one make a "new" anything without first needing to reconstruct or recreate it? Rosalina literally talks about tbe cycle of life and death, as in, creation of new life from the destruction of others.
How does one make a "new" anything without first needing to reconstruct or recreate it? Rosalina literally talks about tbe cycle of life and death, as in, creation of new life from the destruction of others.
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To imply this is timehax is to say that Lumas and/or Rosalina now suddenly have a power not listed on their profiles nor displayed anywhere else.
And also it's clearly not just timehax because things were heavily implied to have been destroyed.
I also don't get what would be argued for Rosalina intervening at all. What do you propose she did? And it would only apply to specifcally Mario anyways as that's what we see. She has no reason to do anything with Bowser either.
And also it's clearly not just timehax because things were heavily implied to have been destroyed.
I also don't get what would be argued for Rosalina intervening at all. What do you propose she did? And it would only apply to specifcally Mario anyways as that's what we see. She has no reason to do anything with Bowser either.
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