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Fixing Potential Issues in Bowser's Page (aka The Great Conspiracy Against Bowser)

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DaReaperMan said:
Whats Infinity divided by any number?
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I'm not sure this works when there are examples of Tier 2 or 1 people holding back so much that they don't instantly kill Tier 10s to 3s.

Just because something is Low 2-C doesn't mean everything that comes into contact with it is Low 2-C. Fiction usually isn't that detail consistent.
 
Foxthefox1000 said:
What do you mean the feat doesn't exist?
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The feat is currently considered Low 2-C because the same guide that mentions this is accepted as canon. So the same guide that would make the feat Low 2-C canonizes Bowser getting burned by it.
 
Okay guys.

Please explain to me how a big boom that resets every resident of the universe (because people like the Honey Queen and NPCs from other galaxies show up who were non-native to your planet and galaxy) and even revives a dead infant dino piranha you kill at the start of the game doesn't mean the entire universe wasn't effected in the blast. Please actually explain this to me.
 
Oh yeah also if you discard the guidebook entirely there is no argument at all for Bowser surviving the blast. This is never shown nor mentioned at all in the game itself. We just cut back to the Mushroom Kingdom with everyone waking up. The guidebook is the only thing that might arguably suggest Bowser physically surviving the blast, which even then is a bit contentious.

So it's either accept the guidebook which also deconfirms Bowser supposedly absorbing all the energy and containing it with his body, or it's discarding the guidebook which gets rid of all Universe Level stuff to begin with.
 
What says they didn't survive it either by that logic

Blast happens, we see Mario talk to Rosalina, he then wakes up on the planet. Nothing says he didn't tank it. Nothing says he was shielded without the guide.
 
Also worth nothing is that Bowser "absorbing stars" is obviously an amp and Mario is also technically amped when beating him cause he has that luma giving him the spin jump. Even if that stuff was valid it doesn't scale to their base forms.
 
OP makes sense to me.

Also can we please drop this infinity argument. There have been threads already about this, it's derailing the thread. If you take a single step in an infinitely long road you don't cross infinite distance, it's that simple.

If someone has a problem with that, feel free to go and change how math works, win a Fields Medal, and come back to the site and change our standards.
 
Why? What explicit proof shows they perished? We literally see Mario talk to Rosalina after the blast, and then he gets sent off and only THEN awakens.

The sequence of events doesn't make sense. If you say "it was a dream sequence" what proof is there for that? It's literally headcanon at that point.

The Star Spin doesn't effect anything. Hell, the final battle is you using just your Ground Pounds to harm him sooo
 
In fact I believe Rosaline directly says "To pursue this monster one would need the power to cross space...this Luma will give you that power"

It's literally just what helps him with the spaceflight and grants a new physical move that grants him extra height.

It being an amp isn't really supported. They do say he gives Mario the "power of the stars" but in context this could simply just again refer to the spaceflight rather than a random Luma providing an amp equal to a Power Star when all the evidence suggests otherwise.
 
1. It's somewhat common in Japan for autors to mix up galaxy for universe, and in turn a popular kanji to refer to the latter also just refers to space (or the cosmos). So for the first point here I not only give a yes, I also outright encourage to not think too much about it, it's not worth it. As in, if they didn't make it very clear in the game how they were going to something something "the universe", rather than the galaxy, then it's hard AF to prove reliability on other translations claiming it, going against what the game says is already bad, having clear reasons as to why they could have and likely messed up is worst.

2. Also yes. I can remember myself making frustrated, "Maybe I should be doing something else" sounds in the Mario upgrade when people agreed on how Bowser being inside his shell went in favor of him taking the would-be Low 2-C blast, while ignoring how that argument is null as if he were not to take the would-be Low 2-C blast, he would still be in his shell anyway as he was consumed by a mini sun. And the amount of things I could wank into Low 2-C and claim that they talk about the wholeness of something when "'the very fabric' of X" is said is pretty insane, it just refers to that something to an unknown degree, or more fundamental parts of it (its fabric), which is much the same; an unknown degree of it, and granted, yes it can also refer to all of it, as the highest possible take. If anyone wants to claim that it just has to mean Low 2-C then, well, that's dogmatism. There is no magic reason for it.

3. Powering up the rest of the tech/magic Bowser had should mean all the credit shouldn't go to it, but it likely doesn't matter by how this is going.

4. I agree.
 
Foxthefox1000 said:
In fact I believe Rosaline directly says "To pursue this monster one would need the power to cross space...this Luma will give you that power"

It's literally just what helps him with the spaceflight and grants a new physical move that grants him extra height.

It being an amp isn't really supported. They do say he gives Mario the "power of the stars" but in context this could simply just again refer to the spaceflight rather than a random Luma providing an amp equal to a Power Star when all the evidence suggests otherwise.
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This is being looked in the wrong way, just saying that Luma gives spaceflight doesn't tells us that that's all it does, only that that's what it's doing right there. The spin attack is the main attack Mario has and is given by that Luma, therefore it does makes sense if it powered it. Added to it how Mario gains the "power of the stars" and yeah, it fits quite well that it would be an amp.
 
Okay, you know what?

Several of my point have been ignored/not acknowledged and we're trying to argue that it should be the standard to assume a villain who went out of his way to utilize most of the Grand Star's energies before in his many machines (which should literally scale to Mario anyways) for some reason, despite all logic against it, doesn't want to use all of their power to crush his enemy? Okay. And it's a standard now to assume villains don't use all of the energy something possesses despite having the resources to and no reason to assume otherwise, right? Okay. I'm sure that's TOTALLY consistent with other verses.

And it should be ignores how the universe was still blatantly reset within the very game and how Bowser simply "extending his empire, wouldn't make sense because he literally already did so, having things like Bullet Bills and Bob-Ombs and Goombas at galaxies on the egdes of the universe as seen in the Trial Galaxies? Okay. How we are to ignore that multiple NPCs from across non-native galaxies were shown in the end clearly effected by the blast? We are to ignore Rosalina clearly stating the Observatory can observe the galaxies in the universe which are the ones you go to in the game and what the Map is a display of?

There's just too many contradictions here that seem so blatant and I'm not using the guides at all.

But it seems I'm the minority and won't be convincing anyone anytime soon. Maybe once DDM shows up or some other mods I'll talk again but for now this is a bit much for my anxiety. If this goes through in my absence, whatever.
 
@Foxthefox1000 I acknowledge your comments, I don't agree with them. I preferred that being left unsaid.

@AKM sama Something that comes from this issues; Rosalina has a key with a Grand Star but never had it equipped, she just owns it fused as energy in the core of her ship. That was just a free Low 2-C key and should be removed. If we were to say that she has all of her Optional Equipment in her second key, and therefore her ship, and therefore she could maybe tear off Grand Stars from it if she (somehow) wanted to then sure, but the second key just says "With the Grand Star" as if that was a thing.
 
Foxthefox1000 said:
Several of my point have been ignored/not acknowledged
Click to expand...
Besides what's already in the OP (I included most of everything you already brought up), I'll address your other points later when I find the time.
 
@Foxthefox1000

Please calm down. This is not a serious enough an issue in itself to get seriously stressed out over.

I hope that all of your concerns will be addressed.
 
Yeah, this sounds reasonable, albeit there seems to be arguments against the thread in discord (Some of which don't really counter anything tho)

But well, the thread might not be over yet.
 
DragonLord said:
As many probably know already, I agree to everything here
Click to expand...
You won't be saying that when these people downgrade Sonic for similar reasons


Qawsedf234 said:
Just because something is Low 2-C doesn't mean everything that comes into contact with it is Low 2-C. Fiction usually isn't that detail consistent.
Click to expand...
This is a reactor powered by a 4D source. Why would we ever assume it's any different. Mario still harms Bowser physically and there's no "power amp" that was ever given to him. Just "the star spin increases his power" with no evidence as Rosalina tells us at the start of the game that it's to travel throughout the universe.



AKM sama said:
This information comes from a US guidebook, and is contradictory to the information from the game itself. The game states this at different points in time:

br.PNG
image0.png

image0.png
image0.png


Going by this version, Bowser's plan was to create 'his' galaxy, from where he will rule his great galactic empire, that will eventually spread his control to the entire universe. There is nothing here about literally destroying the universe and creating a new one. It is completely unfounded in the game.

As for the fan translation since people say that the English one is always inaccurate, here is one I found that was used previously, I think.

I'll quote:
The first sentence is the same, except instead of galaxy, it mentions star. And the translator is not sure about the remaining part.


It means that Bowser was planning to create a star as the center/core of his empire from where he and his army will rule the universe.

I thought I'd try a different source just to be sure. Here's another translation DragonLord asked a friend to do:

1. The first scan I posted.
"Princess Peach! You are about to witness the birth of a new galaxy of my making!"

2. "I'm putting the finishing touches on the core of my new universe, Great King Planet!"

3. "With this planet in the center, I, along with Peach, will build a 10,000-year Great Galactic Empire!"

4. "And my empire will spread across the whole universe like a big bang!"

According to this translation, it seems that the plan was to create a planet. With that planet in center, he wanted to build a galactic empire (hence the birth of a new galaxy). And then extend his empire across the universe.

Since in Japanese there could be confusion between the word planet and star, that would explain why the two fan translations differ in that respect. But they are consistent with everything else.

Basically, the plan was to create a planet/star, as the core of his (galaxy) galactic empire, from which he will rule the universe.

From the Canon page:
I don't know why a description from a guide is being used over the description in the game when it blatantly contradicts the primary source. This needs to be fixed and we should stop using it.
Click to expand...
A contradiction is something that is impossible no matter what. You imply that Bowser was ONLY going to build a galactic empire without changing the universe, yet you do realize he can accomplish all of this faster by just collapsing and recreating the universe spot on. And this really raises a lot of questions for the ending as now that's completely unexplained anywhere in canon.


AKM sama said:
The Grand Star is used as a battery in Bowser's reactor. As per this video, when the reactor becomes unstable, first there is an initial explosion like a mini supernova, which then created a mini black hole that starts sucking Mario, Peach and her castle into it. Hundreds of Lumas (the tiny stars) go toward the black hole in order to stop/cancel it, sacrificing themselves in the process, and that action ultimately results in a massive explosion. Mario finds himself with Rosalina who talks about how the dead stars are born again and the cycle of life and death continues. And then Mario finds himself, Peach, Bowser, the castle and everything back to normal at the starting point.
Click to expand...
In fact, this right here was you implying your headcanon within the feat, because the one thing we had to figure out what actually happened is gone now. And it's wild because there were supposed to be a plethora of galaxy level lumas coming in to stop the collapse, yet this same collapse is just a mini black hole?


But anyway I disagree and will probably not respond to this afterward considering the fra train.
 
liluzivert said:
You won't be saying that when these people downgrade Sonic for similar reasons
Click to expand...
Unfathomably based idea wtf

Also you know you can like, just stonewall a thread if your points aren't being answered.

So unless you're ragequitting because of being stumped or something, "hurr durr fra train" doesn't make sense. Votecount meets fuckall in objective CRTs, just be more persistent good God, it's like you actually WANT to be a victim here, I've seen single supporter verses go down harder
 
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liluzivert said:
You won't be saying that when these people downgrade Sonic for similar reasons



This is a reactor powered by a 4D source. Why would we ever assume it's any different. Mario still harms Bowser physically and there's no "power amp" that was ever given to him. Just "the star spin increases his power" with no evidence as Rosalina tells us at the start of the game that it's to travel throughout the universe.




A contradiction is something that is impossible no matter what. You imply that Bowser was ONLY going to build a galactic empire without changing the universe, yet you do realize he can accomplish all of this faster by just collapsing and recreating the universe spot on. And this really raises a lot of questions for the ending as now that's completely unexplained anywhere in canon.



In fact, this right here was you implying your headcanon within the feat, because the one thing we had to figure out what actually happened is gone now. And it's wild because there were supposed to be a plethora of galaxy level lumas coming in to stop the collapse, yet this same collapse is just a mini black hole?


But anyway I disagree and will probably not respond to this afterward considering the fra train.
Click to expand...
I am siding with this shit
 
I have to go to work today; in less than an hour upon starting to write this, and considering today is a Saturday and tomorrow is a Sunday, both days where traffics tends to be much heavier than usual, and thus workload is usually heavier as a result.

I am personally fine with base Bowser being downgraded given the Grand Star being the reason the cast is Low 2-C to begin with and cannot do the Universal stuff naturally; meaning the fights are kind of loophole based and plot armor based. And on top of that, it's super vague if Bowser actually tanked it, we only have evidence that Rosalina's forcefield clearly tanked it, so I'd still apply durability of that. I've always been on the neutral side regarding the overall end result ratings of the cast reaching Low 2-C. But I disagree with the combination of double standards and taking details out of context.

First of all, even ignoring the guidebook, the lore in the cutscenes have two facts in check. One, the Grand Star clearly warped time and space given the situation of everyone waking up in the Mushroom Kingdom. And the range of the blast has to be Multi-Galaxy level at bare minimum. The epic center was located in the center of the Universe, and the space time warping stuff also did expand and reach all the way towards the Milky Way Galaxy. Which is clearly very far away from the Galaxy Reactor. The center of the Universe was a lot farther away than any of those other galaxies you could access including those trial Galaxies located at the "Edge of the Universe". With that in mind, this is basically Universe 7 being bigger than the observable universe for the same reasons. And AoE would even reach 3-A territory. However, I really do not think it's a stretch that the feat is Universe, and given time and space was reset, I still see it being Low 2-C. Even Azathoth agreed with Low 2-C back when he was one of the main people researching it.

Also, Grand Star is still the very reason it has all that power. And it was only one Grand Star, so Grand Star clearly contains the potency of the full feat regardless of where it lands. Though I'm not going to claim that everyone physically empowered by it fully scales from the full impact, but at bare minimum, it's clearly above the fodder Lumas and regular Power Stars. All of which have consistent High 4-C to 3-C feats; and they're solid AP feats. A black hole was casually closed for the High 4-C calculation, and 3-C comes from a literal boom and a galaxy is formed. So they're basically Galaxy level Bob-Ombs or Toei Kid Buus which ever you prefer. And there are times where multiple Lumas needed to overcome the power of one Grand Star. And actually, Lumas can turn into all of the above; planets, stars, black holes, galaxies, Power Stars, and back to Lumas. Green Stars turned back into Lumas and then gave access to the Trial Galaxies. And the pink Lumas that turned into galaxies turn back into Lumas as soon as you come back to the Observatory. So to some extent, it has some universal effect that other powers scale to creation. And especially got amped by multiple Power Stars.

Side Note: the Guidebook as actually based on hero perspective and not Bowser's word of mouth. Mario and Rosalina feared he was going to destroy the universe whether Bowser intended or not, and it still mentions it's the Grand Star adding context to the final cutscene where Galaxy Reactor detonates. It still mentions the Universe being reset, and I already discussed backgrounds shown in the 3D All Stars version has some infamous goofs. They basically just screwed over the back ground not knowing the error of the design. But the lore is unchanged, the final explosion after the Black Hole clearly effected not just the center of the Universe by also reached the Milky Way Galaxy, and reset time and space. So the guidebook isn't wrong about the scope of the final explosion, it's just wrong about Bowser's intentions/word of mouth.

Also, a message to Mario supporters, avoid Whataboutisms as User said. All it does is tell some staff members that "Multiple wrongs don't make a right", and they're probably just going to say "Maybe those verses need to be downgraded too" and what not. And on top of that, other fanbases do not like those verses being talked about on this thread, we're talking about Mario much like how Mario supporters do not like it when being talked about for content revisions for other verses.

I'm not quite finished tackling everything here, and hopefully Dino Ranger Black, GyroNutz, and LuckyEmile can help, but I need to take care of RL stuff obviously.
 
I fully agree with the OP.

IIRC Low 2-C is still consistent enough to exist from the whole Power Star thing + Sammer Kingdom, it's just that fighting Grand Star Bowser isn't necessarily part of that now (I don't even think it was being used as a major justification for it regardless anyways)

Ultimately this dosn't really do anything to Bowser's profile but add a 4-A to one key and/or remove one key. This isn't even really a downgrade as much as a minor correction.
 
The_Smashor said:
IIRC Low 2-C is still consistent enough to exist from the whole Power Star thing + Sammer Kingdom, it's just that fighting Grand Star Bowser isn't necessarily part of that now (I don't even think it was being used as a major justification for it regardless anyways)
Click to expand...
Consistency shouldn't be argued here, this is just about a single feat, not about ramifications.
 
MikeBro25 said:
Even tho Marvel DC Heralds has consistently Uni abilities but okay whatever
Click to expand...
Make the Marvel thread, I'll be glad to change your view on that.

Also consistency isn't a factor discussed on this thread, any talk of that will be considered as derailment (and by extension, worth deletion), from now, so don't go on about it this time.

This kinda stuff is 8 pages long people, focus on not making it any longer
 
Impress apparently deleted some derailing posts here.

Anyway, Medeus seems to have made some good points above. I would appreciate if the rest of our staff try to evaluate them.
 
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