Fixing Potential Issues in Bowser's Page (aka The Great Conspiracy Against Bowser)

[GyroNutz]

Will respond to this later, but I will say this here - the reset at the end of Super Mario Galaxy was not the result of a time rewind. Lumas primary purpose is to be reborn as planets, stars and galaxies, to continue the cycle of life, shown several times throughout the game (see: Rosalina's stories, gateway galaxy). New galaxies were talked about during the ending, which would contradict it being a time reset where old galaxies are brought back.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I'll wait on GyroNutz, and I agree 100% the feat itself for the Sammer Kingdom is definitely Low 2-C, but that's off topic. But I still do not see any solid rebuttals on the Grand Star or universal stuff. Agree that Bowser "Tanking it" is vague, but I believe Gyro can explain better on other things.

 

[AKM sama]

I'll wait for Gyro to respond, but to keep track of things, currently it seems like the only point of discussion that is still undecided is section 3, which is basically determining what exactly happened at the end and how to gauge the power of the grand star.

As for the sections 1, 2 and 4, most of the thread seems to agree that the guide's justification shouldn't be used as it contradicts the game, Bowser's durability should be fixed because him "tanking" it comes from nowhere and doesn't make any sense, and Bowser should not scale to the full power of the grand star.

 

[Foxthefox1000]

No. Most of the thread was just people saying FRA without explanations why.

I've literally explained how he scales to the Grand Star still, a point that went unacknowledged by the way, and him tanking it is still a viable interpretation even if vague. Context can indeed support it. For feats like these we'd at least apply a "possibly" rating.

The guides only have like one issue. Shall we pick apart every other game verse's guides now? I sure hope so

 

[InfiniteDay]

No. Most of the thread was just people saying FRA without explanations why.

Do we really need to write a paragraph why we support a side or not to really hit home the point that we agree with that side? No, that's stupid. I have other things to do than that. This isn't a rebuttal.

Anyway, you have brought up alot more points since I first agreed with AKM, but I still will wait for more arguments before I decide my stance again.

 

[Foxthefox1000]

It just seemed a little too quick to say "well everybody agrees with me" when there were more arguments that came later. That's all.

 

[Foxthefox1000]

And again, I will reiterate, if the universe wasn't reset and remade from scratch then what is Galaxy 2? That's a clearly different universe.

 

[Armorchompy]

I mean, space is pretty vast. Mario could just be visiting different locations.

 

[Foxthefox1000]

Except you start on Earth and head to the Center of the Universe again. Everything from the start and end are all different.

 

[DragonLord]

Except you start on Earth and head to the Center of the Universe again. Everything from the start and end are all different.

You can like, take different directions in traveling you know

plus I mean, the Starship Mario uses Portals anyway, it may not even a straight line

 

[Armorchompy]

Except you start on Earth and head to the Center of the Universe again. Everything from the start and end are all different.

Yeah but, that doesn't necessarily mean the stops would be the exact same as before. Literally everything in the universe rotates, solar systems, galaxies, you'd have to wait billions of years for them to align in the same way twice. And even if that wasn't the case, "he took a slightly different path" would still be an eligible explanation.

 

[Foxthefox1000]

We know it has to be a different universe because Rosalina had a map of the universe in Galaxy 1 and it only contained the places you visit (and newly create) in-game. If it wasn't a map of the universe I'd question why she said they could observe the universe with Star Power and why the map says "universe" if it's only a portion. Even if it was, the "Center of the Universe" was positioned at the bottom in a way where for the blast to have originated there and effected the galaxy clusters furthest from it, since blasts are omnidirectional it would've had to have taken in the rest of the uncharted places too.

 

[DragonLord]

We know it has to be a different universe because Rosalina had a map of the universe in Galaxy 1 and it only contained the places you visit (and newly create) in-game. If it wasn't a map of the universe I'd question why she said they could observe the universe with Star Power and why the map says "universe" if it's only a portion. Even if it was, the "Center of the Universe" was positioned at the bottom in a way where for the blast to have originated there and effected the galaxy clusters furthest from it, since blasts are omnidirectional it would've had to have taken in the rest of the uncharted places too.

could you provide scans?, only map I found was just for the Comet Observitory

And You know like, Humans make Maps of the universe too and like, there obviously not complete, we find new ones everyday, we ourselves “observe the universe”

 

[Foxthefox1000]

For point of reference, I made a graphic showing what I'm talking about.

 

[DragonLord]

For point of reference, I made a graphic showing what I'm talking about.

Pretty sure by this very Map, the Mushroom kingdom would be far off from where the observatory is

 

[Cropfist]

I've literally explained how he scales to the Grand Star still, a point that went unacknowledged by the way, and him tanking it is still a viable interpretation even if vague. Context can indeed support it. For feats like these we'd at least apply a "possibly" rating.

Does this include the fact it makes his base equal to his amplified form?

 

[Zencha9]

i disagree with DMM because he disagreed with my yugioh crt &_&

 

[Seol404]

In SMG the Comet Observatory has you go in all directions to collect enough stars to power the spaceship to take Mario to the center of the universe. In SMG2 you go straight to the center of the universe. Not revisiting the same galaxies doesn't mean the universe isn't the same.

Also, I'm starting to wonder why everyone (Including myself) thought the universe was destroyed and recreated because like, that's never even stated in the game. All that happens is a bunch of Lumas sacrifice themselves to stop an explosion which we visually see stars behind, then Rosalina explains to Mario how the cycle of the universe works and that all the Lumas will be reborn as new galaxies one day, and upon waking up Mario says "welcome new galaxy". There's actually nothing about the universe being remade at all, surprisingly.

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

Like with the Wario World thread I agree that the Durability feat is too uncertain to be listed, I don’t think Bowser “tanked” anything.

 

[DaReaperMan]

Bowser tanked something. Unless you want to argue that being clearly dazed and in pain is just him waking up...

 

[Ryukama]

For point of reference, I made a graphic showing what I'm talking about.

I would not take the gameplay map hyper literally unless you are trying to say Mario's universe is only a few dozen galaxies large.

Especially since the domes are canonically not the location of these galaxies. They are simply places to transport you far off into galaxies. I know it says "Universe Map" in the corner but this is literally just a map of the Comet Observatory. You can plainly see it's a layout of the observatory with all the domes labeled. And again you should not argue this map is a fully accurate representation of Mario's universe unless you're planning to drastically downgrade it. So I do think this map is "only a portion" of the full universe.

 

[Foxthefox1000]

I'll try to respond later because I'm busy. But just saying only specific parts of my arguments got any rebuttals, and some were just "well It's vague so"

It should also be noted that, again, developers literally state the setting is the universe. Given these are multiple galaxies being effected I have no reason to doubt the scope. This is also directly from Iwata himself. First quote on the page. So im case anyone tries to argue it, no, "galaxy" being the only thing effected makes literally no sense so we shouldn't even consider that as it's massively contradicted. I believe a member also said Galaxy and Universe can get mixed up in Japanese too so, yeah.

But yeah, I'm done for now. Maybe I'll reply to some other stuff later. I've contributed enough already, I think.

 

[AKM sama]

I've literally explained how he scales to the Grand Star still, a point that went unacknowledged by the way, and him tanking it is still a viable interpretation even if vague. Context can indeed support it. For feats like these we'd at least apply a "possibly" rating.

Can you quote yourself about how he scales to the Grand Star?
Him "tanking" it is not supported by anything, and we don't give possibly rating for such weird leaps in logic. This has already been addressed.

The guides only have like one issue. Shall we pick apart every other game verse's guides now? I sure hope so

Don't bring other verses. We already pick apart every other verse where the guide contradicts the canon. That's our canon rules. If you know of some other verse that's in violation of this, make a thread and call me there.

Bowser tanked something. Unless you want to argue that being clearly dazed and in pain is just him waking up...

If we are going to the assumptions territory, I can make a weird assumption like Bowser died in the explosion and that is why he seemed the most affected by the reset. Again, this has already been addressed. Feeling a bit dizzy and stumbling is common when you suddenly wake up and try to stand on your feet. This isn't proof of anything. I don't know in which universe making such a giant leap in logic and concluding "tanking" just because someone stumbled when there is no evidence is viable and it's disheartening to see this line of logic being used unironically.

 

[DaReaperMan]

AKM name one person who is in good health that wakes up and looks completely dazed and in pain. I'll wait.

 

[DragonLord]

AKM name one person who is in good health that wakes up and looks completely dazed and in pain. I'll wait.

Do you like, Sleep, because I tell you plenty of people, especially cartoon characters, wake up that way

 

[DaReaperMan]

Do you like, Sleep, because I tell you plenty of people, especially cartoon characters, wake up that way

Struggling to stand up? Yes. Clearly in pain? No.

 

[DragonLord]

Struggling to stand up? Yes. Clearly in pain? No.

My Dad did these same motions every time I saw him in the morning Lmao, where are you even getting the “in pain” from

 

[AKM sama]

AKM name one person who is in good health that wakes up and looks completely dazed and in pain. I'll wait.

Ever heard of this? It is quite common. He doesn't seem in pain, only a bit dizzy. But again, if we are making weird ass assumptions, I can say that it's because he is the most affected by the reset because he died before. But I'm not going to. We don't know whether he survived or not, the only thing we know is that the entire thing was reset and that's how he is alive at the end.

 

[DaReaperMan]

Ever heard of this? It is quite common. He doesn't seem in pain, only a bit dizzy. But again, if we are making weird ass assumptions, I can say that it's because he is the most affected by the reset because he died before.

Oh that, Superstar Saga is a massive contradiction to that then since Bowser sat up a helluvalot quicker after being knocked out and only raised an eyebrow for it. And before you say "Bowser was knocked out recently for that" it wasn't different then Galaxy.

 

[AKM sama]

You can have isolated head rushes

It doesn't have to happen every time, neither does it happen all the time to anybody. It can be an isolated event that happens sometimes. My god, it's barely happened to me like half a dozen times from what I can remember of my life.

I am not going to continue this pointless debate. Unless I see some clear indication that Bowser "tanked" the explosion, besides people bringing up egregious arguments like "oh he must’ve tanked universal annihilation because after the reset, he was a bit dizzy and stumbled a bit and he doesn't get a head rush normally", I am not entertaining this. Like, there are wrong arguments, and then there are arguments where people go out of their way to conjure up anything to "explain" a headcanon. The majority have already voiced agreement over this and I am not in the mood of stalling an important discussion about figuring out Grand Star's power until somebody brings up something new and convincing.

 

[DragonLord]

Oh that, Superstar Saga is a massive contradiction to that then since Bowser sat up a helluvalot quicker after being knocked out and only raised an eyebrow for it. And before you say "Bowser was knocked out recently for that" it wasn't different then Galaxy.

You know like, people can have different ways of Waking Up depending on a ton of factors

 

[Foxthefox1000]

1. It's somewhat common in Japan for autors to mix up galaxy for universe, and in turn a popular kanji to refer to the latter also just refers to space (or the cosmos). So for the first point here I not only give a yes, I also outright encourage to not think too much about it, it's not worth it. As in, if they didn't make it very clear in the game how they were going to something something "the universe", rather than the galaxy, then it's hard AF to prove reliability on other translations claiming it, going against what the game says is already bad, having clear reasons as to why they could have and likely messed up is worst.

Hope they can explain themselves cause I didn't just pull that claim out of my ass

 

[Foxthefox1000]

And you also realize that you, too, are arguing headcanon?

We're just calling it like we see it and have provided proof for our claims. Have you guys done so beyond the initial post?

 

[Foxthefox1000]

And I also want to say that it is literally not normal for a person to fall when waking up. I even looked it up and that's a symptom of a sleep condition and/or severe fatigue like I said in my other post earlier.

But then the question is "Why? What's the cause for this sudden condition?" Oh? He just got hit with a blast that effected the entire universe after a long battle with his archnemesis? That would make so much sense, yes.

Why would Bowser suffer from this while no one else does? Recreation should've happened at the same time for everyone. I don't like repeating myself either. And it IS recreation. We know this for reasons already explained.

 

[AKM sama]

And I also want to say that it is literally not normal for a person to fall when waking up. I even looked it up and that's a symptom of a sleep condition and/or severe fatigue like I said in my other post earlier.

Just this last response on this matter from me, because what you said is clearly wrong. From the link I posted:

A head rush is a sudden drop in your blood pressure when you stand up from a lying or seated position.
When you stand up quickly, gravity pulls your blood toward your legs and your blood pressure quickly drops. Approximately 10 to 15 percent of your blood pools in your lower body when you stand.
Your body’s reflexes keep your blood pressure constant when you stand. For example, they’ll pump more blood and constrict your blood vessels. When these reflexes don’t act properly, you may experience the dizziness and lightheadedness of a head rush.
You may also experience the following symptoms when standing quickly:
blurred vision
weakness
fatigue
nausea
heart palpitations
headaches
passing out
You can have isolated head rushes, or they may be a chronic problem.

So yes, a normal head rush can, in fact, make you dizzy, lightheaded and pull you down back for a couple of seconds. Losing balance is the most obvious effect of feeling dizzy and lightheaded. Again, stuff like this is extremely normal. If you actually looked it up, you'd know.

And it IS recreation. We know this for reasons already explained.

I'm awaiting Gyro's response on this. The argument I can see here is Mario stating "welcome new galaxy". But your arguments about the entire universe being recreated has already been countered by others as to why that's not sufficient information.

 

[TMaakkonen]

Mario himself was fine but after a screen fades to white he too was unconscious for who knows how long and wakes up. Even Peach wakes up.

We are way too focused on Bowser because he... shakes his head? Stumbles a bit?

Its clear Mario, Peach and Bowser were all unconscious from whatever happened.

 

[AKM sama]

Its clear Mario, Peach and Bowser were all unconscious from whatever happened.

"Yeah, it was all a reset and they were all unconscious and the castle was renewed, but you see.... Bowser shook his head and stumbled a bit. In conclusion, he tanked universal annihilation."
Kind of disappointed that people making this argument can't see the difference between the premise and conclusion of this argument and how both these statements are universes apart from each other. Or that it implies base Bowser > amped Bowser. Makes me sad that I am having to write more than one post for this.

 

[Ryukama]

This alleged feat is never shown or mentioned in the game itself. A foreign guidebook says Bowser was "shaken by his survival" but the entire universe was reset and everyone/everything survived as a result, so his survival could very well be attributed to that. In the game itself Bowser wakes up after this reset but so do Mario and Peach who the guidebook explicitly says were not hit by the blast. But Bowser stumbled a bit while waking up so now he tanked universal destruction? The same universal destruction that apparently a guy who is stronger than an amped Bowser had to get shielded from.

In other words the Tier 2 dura is based upon a feat only actually mentioned within a foreign guidebook that could be interpreted as surviving universal destruction but has another equally if not more reasonable interpretation. So it all comes down to Bowser waking up a little different than other people in the cutscene to prove this feat that's not shown or mentioned within the game actually happened in accordance to that other interpretation in the guidebook.

Yeah you cannot go "But what about X?" No other verse would ever get upgraded on such completely vague and presumptuous grounds. Especially not Dragon Ball. A guy flat out saying "I have enough energy to destroy the solar system" within every adaptation, a group of casual multi-planet busters who can all detect energy levels never denying it, and then guidebooks backing it up took years to finally accept and we used to have an entire article dedicated solely to denying it. Superman has like a dozen demonstrable on screen universal feats that are all deemed outliers. Other verses are completely irrelevant in this particular argument but if you're going to bring them up it doesn't go in the way you want it to.

 

[Dino_Ranger_Black]

This is EXACTLY what I've been saying since the other two threads and yet they STILL snuck in this upgrade while I was away. I'm really getting tired of being called into these threads only to be ignored and condescended. I agree in a humming bird's heartbeat.

Ask for the Grand Star, I believe it's Galaxy level. I remembered during the cut scene where the Comet Observatory was flying to the center of the universe, a new dark galaxy Bowser was creating can be seen, just like he said before and after. I don't know who keeps claiming how "unreliable" or "inaccurate" the dialogue when they mean more or less the same over all. I've noticed lately, people have been using them to try to imply something completely different. I'm guessing that's why people keep vouching for these ridiculous feats.

 

[Ryukama]

This is EXACTLY what I've been saying since the other two threads and yet they STILL snuck in this upgrade while I was away.

And posted it a week and a half after my retirement while I obviously wasn't going to be active, especially with no one @ing me. I feel the same way lol

Ask for the Grand Star, I believe it's Galaxy level. I remembered during the cut scene where the Comet Observatory was flying to the center of the universe, a new dark galaxy Bowser was creating can be seen, just like he said before and after. I don't know who keeps claiming how "unreliable" or "inaccurate" the dialogue when they mean more or less the same over all. I've noticed lately, people have been using them to try to imply something completely different. I'm guessing that's why people keep vouching for these ridiculous feats.

Yeah I actually do agree that The Grand Star/Reactor is Tier 3-2. I just do not think Mario or Bowser physically scale to that.