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Final Doctor Who Cosmic Revisions

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ByAsura

He/Him
VS Battles
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Frankly, I'm getting sick to death of these constant Doctor Who revisions, and I'm fairly sure Ant is too, but I'm going to definitively disprove all this 1-B tiering for the last time.

Tiering Revisions
All of these characters are scaled to Saraquazel due to the After-universe being 27-D, however, this is completely wrong as I'll explain below.

Guardians of Time/Great Old Ones
The Guardians of Time and Great Old Ones all possess their powers due to originating from the Pre-Universe and alternate dimensions, where the laws of physics are completely different

  • RASSILON ONLY KNEW OF TWO GUARDIANS -LIGHT AND DARK, GOOD AND EVIL, BLACK AND WHITE. BUT RASSILON WAS AWARE THAT THERE MAY BE OTHERS. BEINGS FROM ANOTHER UNIVERSE, COME TO EXPLORE, INVADE OR COLONISE OUR OWN. HE DEFINED THEM AS SUB-GUARDIANS -FOR MANY WERE THE CREATURES THAT CAME UNTO OUR UNIVERSE AS IT WAS BORRN, OR AS THEIRS EXPIRED.AND RASSILON NAMED THE SUB-GUARDIANS 'THE GREAT OLD ONES', SPECULATING THAT MAYHAPS THEY WERE TIME LORDS FROM THAT OTHER UNIVERSE, FAR MORE ADVANCED, FAR FURTHER EVOLVED.
  • Very well,' replied Chapel, the irritation at being interrupted clear in his voice. Saraquazel is displaced from his universe, just as Anne's precious Intelligence is. The difference between them is simple, however. While the [Great] Intelligence is a revenant from the previous universe, Saraquazel's pedigree is far more impressive. He comes from the universe that will be born from the ashes of this one.
  • Mel's eyes traced the paths of the smoke from the fires, and she saw that the walls of the chamber were lined with a series of large statues. Each was cast in the image of the creatures Mel had seen withinTime's Champion, creatures she recognised all too well: the Great Old Ones - the Great Intelligence, the Nestene Consciousness, Cthulu, Nyartholatep and many others - the monsters from before Time itself, cast out of their dying universe to prey on the living of this one.
  • "Not much to tell. He's the (Celestial) Toymaker. Spawned in the chaos before time."
  • Would you like to hear a story about the Great Intelligence.' [...] 'Before this universe was created, there was another one. A totally different universe, with alien physical laws. The heavens were green, and the stars looked like... giant doughnuts, to be brutally frank. Very, very different. And, as in this universe, there were people who discovered the deeper mysteries of time and space. In this universe, they're my people, the Time Lords, but they were lords of a very strange version of time and space.' [...] As their universe reached the point of collapse, a group of these "Time Lords" shunted themselves into a parallel universe which collapsed seconds after ours. Moments later, they erupted into our universe, and soon discovered that they were in possession of undrempt of powers.
  • Source that says the same thing as above, almost word-for-word.
  • Very well: the universe is cyclical, which means that it periodically goes through cycles of expansion and contraction, punctuated by a series of big bangs.' [...] 'No, no,' he complained, flapping his hand at me, 'the Great Old Ones predate even that. In the dying days of the universe before this current one, which is forever separated from us by a point where time and space do not exist, a group of beings discovered how to preserve themselves past that point where their universe ceased. They shuttled themselves sideways, into a parallel universe which, for various reasons that I will not even attempt to explain now, ceased a split-second after our one. With me so far?' [...]' 'Good. Just before that universe ceased, they jumped back to our one, which had just started expanding afresh after a moment of nothingness. The trouble is, the universe before ours was set up differently. Fundamental physical laws such as the speed of light and the charge on the electron were different, which means that the Great Old Ones have powers undreamed of by anybody in this universe. Powers that make them look like gods, to naive races. And they're a pretty nasty bunch, too.
  • 'For there was Time before this; and there was Being before this; and there was Space before this. And there were Things Damned in that place, and there were Things Remarkable.' ― The Watchmakers, being rational monsters, never understood that passage properly. They take it all very literally, these days. They think it means that there was another universe before this one, and that it was destroyed in the Big Bang. Ask the Doctor, and that's what he'll tell you. Naturellement, it isn't true. The 'Space before this' was just this universe, before the Watchmakers sucked all of the glamour and the strangeness from its bones. Ohh, yes, there were those of the old time who escaped. A handful of baby godlings and 'great intelligences'... but they were such weak, unimaginative creatures. Too ready to obey the Watchmakers' order. Too ready to give themselves up to Reason.
  • The Time Lords from the pre-universe entered our own universe and discovered undrempt of powers.
As such, they should not scale to another universe that also has completely different physics. In fact, Saraquazel himself was immediately limited to eleven spatio-temporal dimensions within the regular universe due to his incompatability with the universe's laws of physics

  • And then he recognized it with a jolt of horror that shocked his neural filaments: a pan-dimensional vacuum emboitement, a hole in the fabric of reality that tore into underspace and beyond. [...] The journey through the emboitement had transformed his natural form―a comfortable flux of matter and energy that lapped backwards and forwards across all of the twenty-seven dimensions around himinto a rigid lattice of mental energy served by a paltry eleve. [...] He was able to understand the problem in an instant: the physical laws of his native universe were totally incompatible with those of the dimension in which he was now stranded. And the new universe, unsure of what to do with him, had anchored him to a single moment of time, smearing probabilistic echoes of himself backwards and forwards through time until they died away in whispers. Indeed, he theorized that the only reason why he still possessed self awareness was that an infinitesimal bubble of his own space time was trapped there with him.
  • As the elements of this universe buffeted and battered against him, Saraquazel inwardly rejoiced for the totally alien construction of his body, which obeyed natural laws not yet devised. Otherwise, what was to him merely blinding agony would to others have been inescapable destruction.
This is also scales to the Carnival Queen, who was a product of this previous, irrational universe, and shouldn't be as powerful as someone like Saraquazel. Same with the Gods of Ragnarok who are portrayed as being on the level of Fenric, the Great Intelligence (Yog-Sothoth) and other Great Old Ones.

  • Chris levered his attention away from the Carnival Queen and focused on the Doctor. 'Listen to me, Chris. Nothing she's told you is true. Nothing she's told you makes any sense.' Chris wondered how the Doctor knew what the Carnival Queen had told him, but he didn't press the point. 'She's a phantom. She has no place in this universe. She's a refugee from a lost continuum, a leftover from another time, summoned by psionic resonances between the material world of the eighteenth century and the non-linear matrices that exist on the periphery of the vortex. That's all.'
  • ―Once upon a time, she said, this was your universe. Long before your time, before any time that you could measure. A place of endless miracles, non? No harsh sciences here, nomundane little laws of physics, no guiding principles. There was just possibility. An infinity of possibility. Now. Look.
  • He was on the right track. The Great Old Ones are those gods. There's Cthulhu, who we met in Haiti, if you recall, and the Gods of Ragnarok, who Ace will tell you about if you ask her nicely, and Nyarlathotep, who I sincerely hope never to encounter. And Dagon, who was worshipped by the Sea Devils, and the entity known as Hastur the Unspeakable who also goes around calling himself Fenric and who Ace will not tell you about no matter how nicely you ask. And Yog-Sothoth, who I met in Tibet and again in London, and Lloigor, who settled quite happily on Vortis...oh, there's a lot of them. All alien to this universe and its laws, both moral and physical.
Quantum Archangel
>"Became one with Lux Aeterna, the energy lattice that underpins the entire multiverse, and every universe that could possibly exist."

Unfortunately, this afformentioned lattice is outright described as eleventh dimensional. Interestingly, this quote also describes the Lux Aeternia as framing and defining the cosmos, proving Doctor Who cosmology is, in fact, 11-D (there's also more quotes from other stories).

  • Because where those six stunted dimensions crossed the other five of the space-time continuum and the time vortex, they created a point singularity which tapped directly into the fundamental energies that underlay the universe: the seething primal force of the quantum foam. At the heart of each microscopic knot was a point no larger than a quark, but with the potential energy of a quasar. And each of these points linked together across space and time to create an eleven-dimensional lattice of unimaginable power that framed and defined the cosmos. A lattice that the Time Lords ― to their cost―knew as the Lux Aeterna. The eternal light. The food source of the Chronovores.
>"Furthermore, she was stated to be able to see and freely alter virtually all levels of existence, which has been described as containing up to 27 dimensions" That's absolutely untrue, in this story it's only 11-D and the Archangel has only been described as affecting things on this level.

  • Time ram: one TARDIS materialising at the same point in space and time as another, where two TARDISes matched temporal frequencies and materialised at exactly the same point in each and every one of the eleven dimensions of space and time, every particle of one TARDIS coinciding with every particle of the other.
  • Unfortunately, it was about to be solved, far sooner than anyone could have hoped. Or feared. The Quantum Archangel formed from the quantum foam, her physical being solidifying from the eleven- dimensional nothingness like a brand-new star. Throwing out her wings, she announced her presence with a scream of triumph, her flames illuminating dust clouds that had been dark for aeons.
  • 'She can't,' said Mel suddenly realising where the Doctor's reasoning was leading. 'So that's why she needs the processing power. She needs a supercomputer that can realise not just seven billion people, but the lives of every single being in the cosmos.' She looked over at the Doctor. 'Is that really possible?' Unfortunately, she knew the answer. 'Sadly, yes. We're talking about computers where the basic engrams are inscribed on the fabric of the spacetime continuum itself. Where the memory can be an eleven-dimensional self-referential lattice or a pocket universe. Where processing occurs faster than the speed of light ― faster than the speed of time. Supercomputers such as the ones on my list,' he said proudly, glancing at the console. 'Thankfully, there's no sign of activity anywhere within the detection grid.
  • So what did this mean? Gallifrey itself was protected by even more complex temporal defences, its worldline twisted and warped through all eleven dimensions to hide it from Enemy attack. It was the home of the Time Lords, the legendary masters of time. Surely the Enemy lacked the level of knowledge to manipulate its own worldline? On Gallifrey, the temporal theoreticians had had a field day. It had been millennia since they had faced such a conundrum, and the President suspected they had deliberately made heavy weather of their investigations to boost their self-importance.
  • The Quantum Archangel laughed. It wasn't a pleasant sound. Especially as the Doctor could now see that the laugh extended into all eleven dimensions and generated a whole raft of exotic particles which he could taste and smell. The Lux Aeterna's influence was increasing.
  • 'Three things. One. The Artifact is a Klein Bottle: like the Mobius band fromwhich it derives, the Klein bottle is a tube whose inner surface smoothly be-comes its outer surface. I.e. if you were able to travel inside it for long enough,you wouldn't be travelling inside it any more, but outside it. Obviously thisimplies the Klein bottle exists in more than the eleven dimensions which makeup our universe and more specifically the three spatial dimensions which you and I can perceive.
  • 'At the risk of sounding like a high-and-mighty Time Lord, I am a high-and-mighty Time Lord. And to quote one of my elementary texts in the matter: "And in the aftermath of Event Zero, eleven dimensions did fight for existence. Five were triumphant ― together they did become the three dimensions of space, and the two dimensions of time through which we travel. But the remaining six dimensions did still exist: although beaten, although denied their dominance, they curled and curdled amongst themselves to become a six-fold universe, separate yet conjoined. '"They formed a realm all their own ― a universe in which the Transcendental Beings could thrive and prosper without interference from the lesser beings. A realm protected by the Great and Ancient Covenant.
  • With the destruction of the statue, the spillage found itself venting into the real universe, a situation that defied all the laws of physics. Time spillage wasn't supposed to exist in normal eleven-dimensional space: it was completely incompatible. With a final shrug of resignation at those laws, the spillage transformed itself into an explosion of radiation that rivalled the creation of the galaxy: a torrent of radiation which was instantly shoved into the Time Vortex by the Bucephalus, too fast for it to have a chance to interact with its surroundings.
  • 'Imagine that circle is a two-dimensional being. It could move about anywhere on this paper, yes?' Garcia nodded. 'But it can't move vertically.' The Doctor waved a hand above the circle. 'It can't look up and see my hand, because it can't perceive the third spatial dimension. 'Now, Earth scientists will soon discover that the universe has more than four dimensions: in fact there are eleven at last count. That means the world has eleven dimensions instead of four. But life as you know it perceives only those four dimensions. You can't see the rest of it. The Sidhe, or whatever you want to call them, do perceive and exist in all eleven, and we are to them what our two-dimensional friend here ―' he tapped the paper ― 'is to us.'
The Time Vortex

Six-Fold Realm > Time Vortex
There's actually evidence to suggest Calabi-Yau Space (aka the Six-Fold Realm) transcends the Time Vortex

1. Basic 6-D Chronovores can exist in locations outside time-space where TARDISes (which can easily go through the Time Vortex) can only reach the edge without falling apart

  • TARDIS as far as it would go, out to the edge of the universe. Here there lived things that even Time Lords talked of in whispers, here stretched the great wave of quasars and dark matter in continuous explosion. Ye shall go no further. If you looked back, you'd see the complexities of the structure that contained the galaxies, a tangle of gravitic strings and muscles. If you looked forward, beyond the roar of universal expansion, beyond the background flare of first creation, there was only darkness. [...] Mortimus was not scared by what lay in the void beyond the universe. [...] 'Artemis!' he shouted. 'I call you! I call you in the name of Rassilon The Ravager! I call you in the name of Omega The Fallen! I call you in the name of the Other, he who completes the Trinity and whose name is forever lost! You must enter the continuum and pay me heed, for I would give you sustenance!' She appeared straight away, to the Monk's surprise. A simplefigure, standing in the corner of the pentacle, a woman in a blackdress. She had long black hair and a shining red mouth ofimmaculate teeth.'
2. Despite having complete and utter mastery of the Time Vortex, even the Time Lords shy away from the Six-Fold Realm, although this is probably due to the beings there

  • '"Although we and the Transcendental Beings share the time vortex, the Covenant divides us. But the Six-Fold Realm is denied us by the Covenant, and it is a Covenant that we dare not transgress." You see, even the Time Lords have kept away from what you call Calabi-Yau Space. We simply left it alone, as most sensible races have done!'
3. The Master describe's Kronos' attacks as coming from a deepest levels of reality, which is implied to be the Six-Fold Realm, rather than the Time Vortex

  • They weren't even coming from the time vortex. They were coming from the deepest levels of reality, from the primal substrate that underpinned the universe ― and that could only mean one thing. The Master gulped back his fear.
4. The Doctor described the Time Vortex as the second temporal dimension

  • 'Doctor?' It was Arlene, the blessed still point in the room, it seemed. 'You said earlier that these creatures lived in something called the time vortex. What has that got to do with Calabi-Yau Space?' Finally, an intelligent question! The Doctor turned round in his chair. 'The time vortex is the second temporal dimension ― it's the region through which TARDISes travel, the region that TOMTIT creates a gap through to enable matter transmission. When the dimensions froze out of the void it became inexorably linked to Calabi-Yau Space. The Chronovores may live in the time vortex... but they eat and feed in what you call Calabi-Yau Space.
5. The Six-Fold Realm exists at every point in space-time as well as the Time Vortex and contains the Lux Aeternia that underpins the cosmos and acts as a food source for the Chronovores

  • The Doctor's voice was very, very quiet. 'And it would have been better if you never had.' The knots of Calabi-Yau Space, existing at every point in the four familiar dimensions of space-time as well as throughout the time vortex, were inaccessible to the majority of races in the cosmos. Even the most advanced of them treated it as an abstract set of solutions to some esoteric quantum equations. Which was just as well. Because where those six stunted dimensions crossed the other five of the space-time continuum and the time vortex, they created a point singularity which tapped directly into the fundamental energies that underlay the universe: the seething primal force of the quantum foam. At the heart of each microscopic knot was a point no larger than a quark, but with the potential energy of a quasar. And each of these points linked together across space and time to create an eleven-dimensional lattice of unimaginable power that framed and defined the cosmos. A lattice that the Time Lords ― to their cost ― knew as the Lux Aeterna. The eternal light. The food source of the Chronovores.
6. The Six-Fold Realm is based on hexadimensional physics that surpass the Time Vortex

  • The Master had returned to his calculations. 'E equals MC to the fourth power...' he muttered. 'Cubed.' 'What?' 'E equals MC cubed.' Anjeliqua might not have been the genius that Paul was, but she still remembered her temporal physics courses. E equals MC cubed in the time vortex. 'Not in the hexadimensional physics of Calabi-Yau Space, you ignorant...' He shook his head. 'Ms Whitefriar, please accept my apologies. The strain of these calculations is taking its toll. Indeed, I have to confess that this enterprise is proving to be a little beyond me. I require assistance.'
  • PERCIVAL: E equals MC squared, not cubed. MASTER: Not in the extra-temporal physics of the time vortex. Oh dear, now you've made me lose my place. You're an interfering dolt, Percival.
7. It's implied the Time Vortex is between creation and the Six-Fold Realm

  • Because where those six stunted dimensions crossed the other five of the space-time continuum and the time vortex, they created a point singularity which tapped directly into the fundamental energies that underlay the universe: the seething primal force of the quantum foam.
8. It's said to be the pinnacle of creation, even when the Time Vortex is mentioned

  • I have just received word that this radiation, this wound in the vortex, has managed to penetrate the Higher Dimensions.' The Doctor stepped towards Vansell, ignoring the shocked exclamations from the High Council which reverberated through the dark-lit chamber.'How far into Calabi-Yau space has the wound travelled?' he asked, referring to a region of space-time where the Chronovores, Eternals, Guardians and other similar creatures made their homes. 'Too far,' Vansell replied. The CIA coordinator turned his slight figure towards theholographic image of the Time Vortex, and, with a small wave of his hand, (and to Romana's mild indignation) he manipulated the surrounding imagery, bringing up a new scene. Once again, the voices in the Council Chamber fell silent. Fear settled in the air. To Benton's eyes, what they were seeing could only be described as looking into a pit containing the sum of human fears. To the Doctor's eyes, however,the scene was that of a more rational, yet no less terrible place: the Six-Fold Realm, the pinnacle of the cosmos, home of the Guardians, and a window into utter chaos.
5-D Time Vortex
Firstly, Future Gabby was infected by a Block-Transfer Mathematics-based Virus, which is the same math used to build TARDISes, allowing her to develop vast powers with exposure to the radiation of the Time Vortex from The Doctor's TARDIS and maintain her abilities by staying connected to it. According to The Doctor, she is a living expression of time-space and the topography of the Time Vortex, akin to the wake of a TARDIS. Her true form is 5-D echoes that radiates energy from the Time Vortex. In addition, Future Gabby built a planetoid composed of exotic matter where scientific principles do not apply.

Secondly, Hyperspace is often called a facet of of the Time Vortex, even to the point where the Time Lords gave up on it two thousand years before the Fourth Doctor's time

  • DOCTOR: Well, I'm not surprised. They gave up teaching [hyperspace] two thousand years ago, even on Gallifrey.
  • The vessel, enfolded within its private micro-universe, tumbled silently through the infinite grey void. It fell towards the place where matter and energy are one, where the dimensions that defined the very structure of reality become blurred and meaningless things. At the heart of the grey void lay the vortex of hyperspace. Then the vessel changed. Its artificial cusp of twisted time and space constricted, dividing into two unequal portions. The neck between the two shrank and disappeared, and they separated. The larger section vanished, dropping out of hyperspace and into reality once more. The smaller section fell on through the void alone, towards the vortex.
  • 'The androids are all part of a hyperspatial token ring network. All communications between them and the webwork pass through hyperspace. Which is a subset of the Time Vortex ―'
Hyperspace an extension to Einstein's theory of relativity. It is a realm of warped physics that exists outside ecludian (3-D) and 4-D space that allows for FTL travel without the effects of time distortion

  • And then Io was gone. Jupiter was gone. Space was gone, to be replaced by a grey void. Mel shuddered as her body — along with the rest of the shuttle and its passengers — translated out of Euclidean space into the warped physics of hyperspace. It was grey: the grey ofwet winter days, the grey of school uniforms, the grey of old Pathe newsreels. A depressing grey that tugged at you.
  • K9: Hyperspace is an extension to the special theory of relativity propounded by Einstein. Einstein's theory states--
  • DOCTOR: Here. Look, how can I explain? Listen, Einstein's Special Theory of Relativity said
  • EMILIA: Said that you cannot travel in space faster than the speed of light, because the speed of light is a limiting factor. If you travelled more than a hundred and eighty thousand miles per second, you'd encounter the time distortion effect.
  • DOCTOR: Yes. Yes, well, he was nearly right.
  • EMILIA: In fact, you'd arrive at your destination before you'd left your starting point.
  • DOCTOR: Yes. Absurd, isn't it? [...] I mean, apart from space warping, which he couldn't possibly understand, there is a theoretical way of avoiding the time distort. [...] Yes, you operate in a different dimension, you see, in another kind of space.
  • EMILIA: Otherwise, hyperspace.
  • DOCTOR: Yes.
  • DOCTOR: Because it exists in a different kind of space from the circle.
  • ROMANA: In hyperspace, not in ordinary four dimensional space.
Third, according to Doctor Who canon, time-space and the multiverse itself is 5-D

  • SUSAN: It's impossible unless you use D and E.
  • IAN: D and E? Whatever for? Do the problem that's set, Susan.
  • SUSAN: I can't, Mister Chesterton. You can't simply work on three of the dimensions.
  • IAN: Three of them? Oh, time being the fourth dimension, I suppose? Then what do you need E for? What do you make the fifth dimension?
  • SUSAN: Space.
  • 'When the universe was created, dimensions started to solidify out of the primal chaos. But five got there first ― the three spatial dimensions and two of time.' [...] "And in the aftermath of Event Zero, eleven dimensions did fight for existence. Five were triumphant ― together they did become the three dimensions of space, and the two dimensions of time through which we travel.
  • Because where those six stunted dimensions crossed the other five of the space-time continuum and the time vortex, they created a point singularity which tapped directly into the fundamental energies that underlay the universe: the seething primal force of the quantum foam. At the heart of each microscopic knot was a point no larger than a quark, but with the potential energy of a quasar. And each of these points linked together across space and time to create an eleven-dimensional lattice of unimaginable power that framed and defined the cosmos.
  • The Doctor and Fitz had known for some time that a war was coming. For months, as they'd gone about their travels, they had stumbled across hints and echoes of a battle fought in the future between the Time Lords and an unknown enemy. The Time Lords were losing. This was a war fought in five dimensions, across the whole of time and space. The Doctor was forbidden to see his own destiny, but the future had sought him out. He had learnt he would die, he had learnt that Gallifrey and everything it now stood for would be destroyed.
And the Time Vortex is essentially transdimensional spiral that is composed of and exists outside of creation, space and time, while having access to every point of it

  • The Space/Time Vortex exists outside of any normal frame of reference. Within it, light, darkness, matter and energy all blend, divide, shift and change. It underlies the whole of Creation, touching the normal Universe only slightly. Its pathways are twisted, unstable and hard to follow. A journey through these strange dimensions might take a moment and carry a traveller a million years and a billion light years from his/her/its origin. Alternatively, a journey of months in the Vortex might end in a shift of six feet and ten days in conventional space. Without being able to calculate the pathways, there was simply no telling.
  • I'm not sure about the technicalities. In layman's terms the TARDIS removes itself from Minkowski space, then integrates itself into a fifth dimension. It travels through something called the Vortex, a transdimensional spiral built by the Doctor's people which encompasses all points in space and time. Then, the TARDIS just reorientates itself at the other end, and reestablishes a plasmic real-world interface.
  • 'Before the Chronovores evolved into their current plane, they existed in time, as part of it, but with the ability to move through time as we move across space. At that point in their development, they fed on pure energy, the raw power at the hearts of stars. Even they, however, were not immune to their own types of sickness or injury; and that's where the Darkheart comes in. It was designed and built by those ancestors of the Chronovores, to nourish their young, and feedthe sick or injured who could not feed themselves. Since the species could be found at any point in time, the Darkheart contains the ability to project that energy to wherever and whenever it may be needed.' 'You mean it's like a sort of drip-feed in a hospital?'
  • 'Doctor?' It was Arlene, the blessed still point in the room, it seemed. 'You said earlier that [the Chronovores] lived in something called the time vortex. What has that got to do with Calabi-Yau Space?'
  • She took a deep, cleansing psychic breath and plunged into the spaceÔÇÉtime vortex. As she had suspected, most routes were blocked to her. The reassuring warmth of the swirling grey vortex no longer comforted her. She used to love its wild churnings, the unpredictable eddies and twists in its multidimensional depths, the way she could make discovery after discovery while forging new paths for herself. Now, though, the only surprises were where the transduction barriers cut across the misty region like crude bars, preventing her from escaping.
Lastly, as I mentioned the Time Vortex is the second temporal dimension, while the first is 4-D space and the universe has 5 dimensions, meaning the Time Vortex is this fifth dimension. It's also almost outright called 5-D more than a few times.

  • While timelines and parallel universes were a feast for the Chronovores, such banquets were few and far between; for them, sustenance came from the Lux Aeterna. By the Ancient Covenants forged in Event One, the Big Bang, the four dimensions of space-time were forbidden to the Chronovores; they were unable to leave their twin domains of Calabi-Yau Space and the time vortex unless summoned. But if a being in what they called the Higher Place were to open such a path for them, those covenants were breached and the Chronovores would be freed. A being from the Higher Place such as the Master.
  • 'It's been done before. I've seen the Doctor get through more scarves than Salome does fans during a dance. In fact, I saw Salome doing a fan dance with one of the Doctor's scarves once upon a time. Anyway, that old laying-a-trailruse never comes off.' She set off again on foot. 'Come on.' 'I'll be bruised head to foot in the morning,' said Fitz ruefully. 'I never thought riding was such hard work.' Iris snorted. 'You've never been riding with me before.' 'Quite.' She turned on him with a raised eyebrow. 'Let's get this straight, sonny Jim. Any more of your double entendres and I send you home this minute.' 'I wish you could. Anyway, what do you mean, double entendres?' 'You know. You've been flirting away like mad with me, from the very firstmoment we met.' She hurried on, pacing easily through the narrowing passageways. Fitz felt through his pockets for his Woodbines and tried to keep up. 'I've done no such thing!' 'Pretending to be the Doctor and all. Oh, I know your game, my lad.' 'And?' She whirled around to find him grinning and lighting a bent cigarette. She took a step towards him. 'And you, sweetheart, don't stand a chance.' She flicked dramatically at her hair. 'Oh no?' 'I'm out of your league.' 'Aren't we all travellers in the fifth dimension together?' She laughed. 'What do you want, some interdimensional version of the Mile-High Club? We aren't the jet set.'
  • 'Warning, master. Alien species identified. It is the Vore. By Supreme Council order, date index 309456/4756.7RE/1213GRT/100447TL, no Time Lordis to engage the Vore, all time ships are to observe an exclusion zone no lessthan one parsec and one century, in all five directions from any Vore moon.Further warning: this is a potential Last Contact. No further information.'
  • 'If they're time machines, could it be from a time before your planet was ―'Marnal gave her a withering look. 'Time travel occurs in relative dimensions. Weren't you listening before? A TARDIS can travel into the past and future, but not its own past and future. That would be a theoretical absurdity.'
  • We have to get back,' the Doctor said, pulling the lever. He apologised to the ship. The lights flickered and dimmed, but the columnin the centre of the console started pumping at something like its normal rate. If anyone was monitoring the progress of the TARDIS on Klist they would have seen it powering towards them, before arcing around in a five-dimensional U-turn, picking up speed and heading back the way it had come. 'Before it's too late.'
Conclusion
The Guardians and Great Old Ones do not scale to 27-dimensions of the universe after the Big Bang, as they originated from the pre-Universe (existence before the Big Bang) or parallel dimensions with different laws of physics that give them power within the 11 dimensions of N-Space where The Doctor and Time Lords reside.

Calabi-Yau Space, which is 11th dimensional, transcends the Time Vortex, and so is the Lux Aeternia that grants the Quantum Archangel her powers. Also, the Time Vortex should probably be 5-D.

I think a discussion rule about re-tiering Doctor Who without massive amounts of evidence should be emplaced, because the verse gets frequently revised and the continuity is absolutely massive in this series.
 
According to the Book of the War, it's located between N-Space and the next universe. Also, simply existing in a 27-D universe doesn't always make a character 27-D.
 
Ye But If compassions has access to it and guardians are superior the guardians likely have access to it and since they embody concepts that govern all reality it would extent to the after universe
 
She doesn't have access to it, she just existed at some point in between the two. Once again, this doesn't even mean she's 27-D regardless.

They're never shown to extend after the universe has expired. In fact, the Black Guardian is strongest at the end of the universe, and what you're suggesting heavily contradicts Doctor Who lore.
 
That's exactly my point, nobody should scale except Saraquazel.
 
The Elder Gods are people like the Guardians of Time and the Great Intelligence. They do not scale.

I'm unsure about the Grace. Squarazel technically has some of the same acolades, and the only reason he survived the trip through to N-Space was because he was compressed to 11 dimensions, was a psychic being, and had a small layer of his universe around him.
 
No, because nobody turned him into a 27-D being, it just happened by entering the universe.
 
Thanks. You can ask some other active administrators as well if you wish.
 
There doesn't seem to be anyone else who has this kind of knowledge on Doctor Who.
 
Well, we simply need some that have a good sense of judgement and can help out with evaluating the information that you provided.
 
Antvasima said:
Well, we simply need some that have a good sense of judgement and can help out with evaluating the information that you provided.
By Asura's arguments seem valid. I was hoping the 27-D stuff could be legit but I knew there was always something not right with it. I guess this makes more sense in the end. The Glory would stay the same however I assume.
 
Probably. Although I'd like to note that The Doctor still refers to omniverse as a collection of multiverses in Glorious Dead, where the Glory appears, but I can't get the full comic.
 
The Elder Gods will still, absolutely, be stronger than the Time Lords.
 
The Daleks, the main threat to the time lords civilization, are nothing more than puppets of the celestial Toymaker. And he does this because it's funny.

The black guardian ****** over the time lords

The gods of ragnarok ****** over the time lords

The carnival queen ****** over the time lords
 
Like I said, they'll still be stronger, just not 27-D.

  • THE RECORD OF RASSILON: THE GUARDIANS OF THE UNIVERSE. THE UNIVERSE IS IN A CONSTANT STATE OF FLUX -AND IS ESSENTIALLY BALANCED BY THE COSMIC POWERS OF THE GUARDIANS. BEINGS SUPERIOR TO EVERYONE.
  • AND SO RASSILON BEGAN TO ASK QUESTIONS OF THE TWO GUARDIANS. WHERE DID THEY COME *FROM? WHAT CREATED THEM? WERE THEY TRULY A PRIMEVAL FORCE? HOW COULD THEY ASSUME A SHAPE FAMILIAR TO THOSE WHO ARE GRANTED THE RIGHT TO SEE THEM? DID A SILICON LIFE FORM SEE THE BLACK GUARDIAN AS A MONOLITH? WOULD A MACHINE SEE THE WHITE GUARDIAN AS A BOX?
  • AND THE GUARDIANS REFUSED TO REPLY AND CAST RASSILON DOWN FROM THEIR REALM -TAUGHT HIM HUMILITY. TAUGHT HIM THAT AMONGST EPHEMERAL BEINGS, THE TIME LORDS OF GALLIFREY WERE SUPERIOR, BUT THERE WERE THOSE MORE SUPERIOR THAN THEM. AND FROMTHIS, RASSILON LEARNED TO RESPECT LIFE IN ALL ITS FORMS, FOR HOWEVER POWERFUL ONE MIGHT CONSIDER ONESELF TO BE, THERE IS ALWAYS SOMETHING SUPERIOR.
 
I've looked into it. She, individually, wasn't a threat. It was both the Carrionite and Hervoken, and they were just called a threat to "many realities", not the Eternals themselves, who seemingly intervened due to how destructive the war was and banished them

  • MARTHA: Right then, it's my turn. I know how to do this. I name thee Carrionite! What did I do wrong? Was it the finger?
    LILITH: The power of a name works only once. Observe. I gaze upon this bag of bones and now I name thee Martha Jones.
    (Martha falls backwards into the Doctor's arms.)
    DOCTOR: What have you done?
    LILITH: Only sleeping, alas. It's curious. The name has less impact. She's somehow out of her time. And as for you, Sir Doctor. Fascinating. There is no name. Why would a man hide his title in such despair? Oh, but look. There's still one word with the power that aches.
    DOCTOR: The naming won't work on me.
    LILITH: But your heart grows cold. The north wind blows and carries down the distant Rose.
    DOCTOR: Oh, big mistake. Because that name keeps me fighting. The Carrionites vanished. Where did you go?
    LILITH: The Eternals found the right word to banish us into deep darkness.
  • 'All right,' he said, 'cards on the table. Your lot don't exist any more. Your people were banished to the deep darkness by the Eternals when your endless, stupid war with the Carrionites threatened to bring this universe and countless others crashing about your... well, I would say ears if you had any. 'Point is you didn't know when to stop, did you? And so the Eternals kicked you out. The only reason they didn't find your little group was because you were already under the earth, dormant. You've been there for thousands of years, that tiny speck of consciousness that kept you alive waiting and waiting for humankind to get clever enough to kick-start your resurrection. You've become legends on this planet, part of folklore. You've seeped into the nightmares of a thousand generations of children.'
 
Thank you to all staff members who are helping out with evaluations.
 
It doesn't imply anything of the sort. Also, it wasn't just Lilith, it was both the Carrionite and Hervoken.

Anyway, this is derailing the thread. If you want to continue, maybe do it on my message wall or after main points of the thread have been fully addressed.
 
Yes, we should stick to the main topic. It seems to have been accepted by the way.
 
I will unlock them. Tell me here when you are done.
 
I've finished them. Now I'll begin with the stuff I was talking about before.
 
What stuff would that be, and should I lock the profiles or leave them open?
 
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