Fiamma of the Right vs The Dovahkiin

[Zensum]

@KingKong23 1.) Don't see the relevance if the property doesnt impact the tier and Fiamma isn't seperating the artifacts or stopping him from using them. He's just one shotting before they can be used. 2.) Duration isn't a game mechanic its used in other game verses unless you have an example of Dova using a Shout indefintley. Dova doesn't have precog and the possibilties are only relevent to Acasuality as per profile as he is not literally experincing allthose things at once. 3.) Dova speed is MHS which has been equalized. HR auto purpose neutralizes mind and soul hax. It essentially creates miracles and responds to the need. 4.) Like I said before as a Prisnor relates to acausality not some time of future sight or posibility manip thing your making it out to be. 5.) If Dova has weapons way above High 6-A then OP should clarify his arsenal 6.) Drawing power isn't the same as being their tier unless those items are that tier then thats should be clarified by OP. 7.) Something being sentient isn't the same thing as making a instant attack. 8.) Like before if the defense/dura is higher than High 6-A it should be clarified 9.) Whats flowery? It's very clear on what it does, his profile lists automatic defense ignores the concept of physical space to deliver an instant strike regardless of location. Your Umbra/Ebony example is called an AOE attack not an instant attack. 10.) ??? I'm giving you an example of why magic equlization is a thing in SBA. Regardless I think match parameters are changed so this will be my last post for now.

@TacticalNuke002 That looks fine I think if it equals it all out to the tier

 

[TacticalNuke002]

2.) Duration isn't a game mechanic its used in other game verses unless you have an example of Dova using a Shout indefintley.

Its a language. A reality warping conceptual language maybe, but a language nevertheless. No sense that a language would have a cooldown. The Greybeards, for example can shout indefinitely. In fact, they hold entire conversations with each other in Dovahzul.

If my set looks fine, here's what they do:

1. Ebony Mail: Protection from Magic and Physical attacks, poisonous aura and Presence Concealment

2. Masque of Clavicus Vile: Increases popularity, charm and persuasiveness. So talking Fiamma out of a fight is an option.

3. Ring of Namira: Attack reflection, cannibalisation (?)

4. Mace of Molag Bal: Transfer of vitality and strength of the victim to the wearer, soul BFR and sealing

5. Skull of Corruption: Creates an exact bloodlusted clone of the target (with all of the original's abilities) who turns upon the original. Empowered by dreams (?)

6. Azura's Star: A perfect unescapable place to put the souls BFRed and sealed into.

I don't believe there's smurf stuff in this set.

 

[Paul_Frank]

So uhh

Fiamma still tps and slaps

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Everyone here talking about first moves are blissfully unaware of how TES Metaphysics work

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/U...hy#The_Prisoner:_The_Hero_Who_Frees_The_World

The Prisoner is free from the chains of causality and determinism that bind the Dream of the Godhead, and thus have true free will to be as they are, walk any path they choose and do as they will.

They can be of any race, any gender, and do anything, and it will be all simultaneously and equally true regardless of contradictions, as the Prisoner is an entity that exists outside all possibility-points (Possible future branching paths).

So the Dovahkiin will have every item they can use, every spell they can use, and will be able to act with maximum efficiency and use the best spells, shouts, techniques and attacks for the situation at hand.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Also, The Dovahkiin is a Reality Warper due to how magic works in Elder Scrolls, and Tonal Magic in particular is far more impressive than any hax Fiamma could muster. The Thu'um isn't sound-based attacks.

The Thu'um is literally manipulating and adding to the song of creation that permeates the entire Aurbis, and changing it. When the Dovahkiin makes time stop with the Thu'um, he isn't using a spell that has an effect that stop times. He is literally singing to Time and commanding it to stop. This applies to every Thu'um the Dovahkiin can use. It's a conceptual-based, reality warping power that manipulates the base information of existence.

Spells in Elder Scrolls are likewise Reality Warping. Magic is the science of bringing Change to the world in accordance to your Will. When you shoot lightning from your hands, you aren't just summoning energy to shoot energy. You are literally willing change into reality to produce that effect.

Hell, more importantly than having power itself, Magic requires extreme show of will and faith. For a mage to walk on water, or become invisible, or fly, they need to convince themselves that such things are possible, and act the spells with genuine faith. To use Alteration Magic, which can alter the fundamental laws of physics and biology, a mage needs to believe themselves that reality is an illusion and that nothing is real save their own mind and will, and thus they can warp the world around accordingly.

An Apprentice Mage in the College of Winterhold can turn you into a cow or a frog and back. The Dovahkiin is the Archmage so that should give you an idea of what type of Alteration Magic they can use.

 

[ZacharyGrossman273]

Fiamma FRA

Also matt how is playing music going to help here

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

This sounds like painfully bad trolling Zach. And I don't think the "FRAs" going on should count as I haven't seen any justification that Fiamma wins.

 

[Ogbunabali]

Holy wall of texts I ain't reading that. Can someone summarise where it says that Fiamma isn't using magic even with verse equalisation.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Anyway my vote is for the Dovahkiin for more diverse, potent and haxed abilities, Tonal Magic, and Daedric Artefacts such as Mehrunes' Razor.

 

[Demise0]

This thread does not involve Accelerator.

 

[ZacharyGrossman273]

Why is tonal magic that strong? Like... at best, it sounds like some weird form of Plot Manipulation

 

[Hl3_or_bust]

Dovah for Matt's reasons

Fiamma is gonna have a hell of a time doing anything about Tonal Magic and Thu'um

i.e. he can't

 

[Ogbunabali]

Zach Tonal Magic is conceptual manipulation.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Why is tonal magic that strong? Like... at best, it sounds like some weird form of Plot Manipulation

Because literally the entire Elder Scrolls Dream is made from the Primal Wail of Nir as she gave birth to Anu's children while simultaneously being murdered by Padomay. This mutual cry of life and death echoes through every subgradient of the Dream, shaping all things in reflection to it.

Which is why the Enantiomorph exists, a literal cosmic constant based on treachery and betrayal, and it is also why suffering exists at all. The Universe is a Song, and it isn't a happy one.

Tonal Magic is recognizing that the universe is a Song and learning to manipulate it to your advantage.

 

[Metalija]

Dovahkiin survives the "instant" attack that Fiamma does thanks to Saviors Hide and then he stops time and annihilates Fiamma. I vote for Dovahkiin.

 

[TacticalNuke002]

Guys, you can't understand this unless you read both blogs. Do yourselves a favour and read them.

 

[Waria_Kambang]

I also agree with Matt's reasoning. Consider my vote for Dovah.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Also people said it before, but Cooldowns are game mechanics and game mechanics aren't canon. There are multiple developer quotes saying that the games are only a flawed representation of the lore and that lore > gameplay. Seriously, do you think the Imperial City, the largest city in all of Tamriel, only has a population of about 100 people? Do you think that Skyrim's landmass is only about 20 odd square kilometers? That the armies of the Stormcloaks / Imperials were only a few dozen soldiers. That you can heal mortal wounds by eating cheese wheels? All of these are gameplay limitations / concessions that do not apply.

The ancient Nords could chant whole songs in Thu'um. The Dragons speak in Thu'um almost exclusively. The Greybeards can only speak in Thu'um.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Guys, you can't understand this unless you read both blogs. Do yourselves a favour and read them.

Even the blogs just go over the essentials. And I myself don't know everything. There's a reason I say Elder Scrolls is the most complex verse on the wiki.

 

[Paul_Frank]

Matt the reasoning is that fiamma tps before dovahkiin can open his mouth to speak and then snipes him

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

>using speed in speed equalized

>thinking Fiamma will inherently use that and won't do anything else

Paul, all you've done in this thread is repeat this same point over and over and over. Acting like this is going to be an easy fight against a Gameplay Dovahkiin who will just draw a sword and use Unrelenting Force.

 

[FateAlbane]

Why is tonal magic that strong? Like... at best, it sounds like some weird form of Plot Manipulation

Even if that was true, the underlying implication that Plot Manip is a weak power has made me silently raise a brow.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Dovahkiin survives the "instant" attack that Fiamma does thanks to Saviors Hide and then he stops time and annihilates Fiamma. I vote for Dovahkiin.

Worth noting that this removes at least two "FRAs", as he was the first one to vote for Fiamma and two people followed suit with "FRAs".

 

[ZacharyGrossman273]

Even if that was true, the underlying implication that Plot Manip is a weak power has made me silently raise a brow.

I mean

Plot Manipulation can mean a lot of things

It can range from "fourth wall themed reality warping" to all the fuckery the dark tower god tiers have

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

It doesn't change that your statement was inherently and objectively incorrect.

 

[ZacharyGrossman273]

I mean

You explained how tonal magic works

But how is that enough to win?

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Fiamma will have no defense to the Dovahkiin's hax, which is more diverse anyway. Saying nothing of artefacts like Mehrunes' Razor, Armor of Savior's Hide and Staff of Magnus.

 

[FateAlbane]

@Zach The "weaker users" point is not really applicable in this case since what your argument was dismissing were the effects of a power Matthew had already explained as powerful.

You didn't question them or point to something Fiamma could do to counter. Instead, you pointed them as "doesn't sound that powerful because it sounds like form of Plot Manip", as if that fact would support the power being weaker. That was the implication going on there, hence why I replied so as it's quite the contrary.

---

Anyways, count me for Dovahkiin FRA.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

5 votes for Dovahkiin.

 

[Demise0]

How does someone equalize TP? HR oneshots before dova can do anything as it ignores the concept of speed and space.

 

[Schnee_One]

Good lord I lagged on this thread.

Anyway, had to clear up some points first, but now that It's been cleared

Mr. Ro Dah FRA

 

[StrongClick]

That's interesting, but I still see Fiamma striking first

 

[Paul_Frank]

No any shout still involves dovahkiin opening his mouth

And attack involves dovahkiin moving his arm

Both of those are slower than tping speed equal doesn't mean the Dovahkiin speaks as fast as fiamma thinks

And no one has even mentioned unrelenting force let's say for instance fiamma tps and dovahkiin time stops that's nice and all but what is dovahkiin going to do from the other side of the world even according to his profile he has high hyperversal range with non combative Thu'um

And fiamma will inherently use that it's like his thing in character

I know that cooldown is game mechanics but the fact that shouts are actually speaking isn't game play mechanics, the fact that speed is equal means dovahkiin may think to use time stop as fast as fiamma thinks to tp but the problem is that fiamma only has to think and he tps dovahkiin still has to speak

And also I'm 99% sure op is going to restricting more artifacts so I think we should wait for that to happen before we continue

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

How does someone equalize TP? HR oneshots before dova can do anything as it ignores the concept of speed and space.

>Ignoring the concept of speed and space

>On a being whos an aspect of both the Time God and Space God

Seems legit.

 

[Faruel1998]

Dovahkiin FRA,his haxes are greater than those of Fiamma, and I also agree with what Matthew said

 

[ZacharyGrossman273]

To be fair, when playing Skyrim, Dovy definitely showed SOME reality warping, but small scale

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

@Paul Frank

I love that whenever we show more spells and artefacts that give the Dovahkiin advantage you cry restrictions.

 

[Demise0]

Okay? And that helps him how?

 

[Metalija]

OP said that Dovahkiin has all artifacts exept spellbreaker so he takes this

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

To be fair, when playing Skyrim, Dovy definitely showed SOME reality warping, but small scale

In gameplay you can't even destroy glass windows and doors with the Thu'um.

In Lore you have shit like this being done by Thu'um users who are weaker than Dovahkiin:

The third song of King Wulfharth tells of his death. Orkey, an enemy god, had always tried to ruin the Nords, even in Atmora where he stole their years away. Seeing the strength of King Wulfharth, Orkey summoned the ghost of Alduin Time-Eater again. Nearly every Nord was eaten down to six years old. Boy Wulfharth pleaded to Shor, the dead Chieftain of the Gods, to help his people. Shor's own ghost then fought the Time-Eater on the spirit plane, as he did at the beginning of time, and he won, and Orkey's folk, the Orcs, were ruined. As Boy Wulfharth watched the battle in the sky he learned a new thu'um, What Happens When You Shake the Dragon Just So. He used this new magic to change his people back to normal. In his haste to save so many, though, he shook too many years out on himself. He grew older than the Greybeards, and died. The flames of his pyre were said to have reached the hearth of Kyne itself.
- The Five Songs of King Wulfharth
HOAGA, the Mouth of Mud, who appeared as a great bearded king, had the powers of Marshalling and breathing the earth. On the battlefields, this demon would often be seen on the sidelines, eating the soil voraciously. When his men fell, Hoaga would fill their bodies back with it, whereupon they would rise again and fight, albeit slower.
(...)
CHEMUA, the Running Hunger, who appeared as a mounted soldier with full helm, had the powers of Heart Roaring and of sky sickening. He ate the Chimeri hero, Dres Khizumet-e, sending the spirit back to the Hortator as an assassin. Sometimes called First Blighter, Chemua could give clouds stomach aches and turn the rain of Veloth into bile.
(...)
BARFOK, Maid of Planes, who appeared as a winged human with lick-encrusted spear, had the powers of Event Denouement. Battles fought against her would always end in victory for Barfok, because she could shape outcomes by singing. Four Chimeri villages and two more Dwemeri strongholds were destroyed by her decision enforcement.
Nevermind more esoteric in-game Thu'um like Time Stop, Become Ethereal, and Dragonrend.