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Fiamma of the Right vs The Dovahkiin

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SchroKatze said:
Also, for the ones saying that magic resist can negate HR's OHK, just read this:


"His third arm. It was an exceedingly irregular object that could not be described with just magic or with just science."


  • (Toaru Majutsu no Index Volume 20, pg 91-92)
He merely swung his right arm lightly. "I do not need destructive force." [...] "If I touch my enemy, it's over, so I don't need to put any effort into destroying them." [...] "I do not need speed." A cold voice cut her off. Forcefully. Exceedingly overwhelming. "If I swing, I hit my enemy, so I don't need to put any effort into hitting them." Kamijou did not know what happened.


  • (Toaru Majutsu no Index Volume 22, pg 113):


His arm was supposed to be almighty. If he swung it, it would hit, so he had no need for speed. If he hit, the target would be destroyed, so he had no need for destructive power.
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This highly important part from Verse Equalisation

"Furthermore, attacks that require a special type of energy to be effective, like anti-magic requiring magic, will be assumed to work against the energies of different Verses, as long as they are somehow similar and the mechanics are somehow compatible with the known mechanics behind the energies from different Verses."

TES Magic is entirely different as it requires one to realize that they are playthings of a schizophrenic Godhead and doesn't really exist individually based on the book "Reality and other falsehoods". It is essentially reality warping as well, while Magicka is the most common usage of magic governed by High 1-B gods who tored infinite holes in the infinite skies.
 
@KongKing We are using the "Mid-Game" Key, Become Ethereal is a timed ability with a cooldown. Speed is equalized but instant abilties/hax aren't like every other battle. They are moving at the same speed but Fiamma's actual hax is instant thats what I mean. He would have already been hit by the strike or auto target before he can finish a shout or use a weapon or the variety of other things that he may or may not use. "Dovahkiin experiences all possibilities at once, AT ONCE." Ok? This doesnt' change the fact he has no set personality that we can discern in character abilties from and it says he's outside posibilities like in acausality not experinces them.
 
Zensum said:
TacticalNuke002 said:
All cooldowns are game mechanics.
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Cooldowns are? Do you know which thread this was agreed on?
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SBA says we only use canon. Gameplay mechanic is absolutely non-canon. Check Matthew Revision profile on TES canonicity.

You admitted that instant abilties/hax aren't, and these are basically what Dov also has. As I mentioned, there is nothing stop Dov from using his abilities as a first mover advantage. What stop Dov from slicing Fiamma's very being away with Mehrunes Razor, and it can be argued as much as HR does for Fiamma. The point remains that a first mover advantage guarantees certain skill/ability to be played no matter what. As Fiamma has TP, which Dov also has, and you guys argued he will strike rather play defensively. Again, there is nothing to stop Dov from using his Magic/Thu'um becoming completely outside of existence or ultilizing artifacts to remove/tank/soul steal/toy with Fiamma.

I want to repeat that Artifacts are also instant and auto due to they have their own will and cosmic physiology. As both sides have instantly auto hax, it just appears that Dov has way better hax than Fiamma in everywhere. The real argument should lie in how Fiamma can deal with it, which he basically can't due to lack of reality warping, conceptual manipulation to counter against Dov.

All those abilties and equipments that I argued for Dov is in the Key. Dov has all of his hax except those in Dragonborn DLC and main quest fights with Alduin. There is nothing wrong with what I am doing.
 
Cooldowns are? Do you know which thread this was agreed on?

Idk about other verses but its gameplay mechanics in Skyrim cuz in lore Shouts are spammable.
 
@KongKing Could you show me that part on the TES blog for Dragonborn specifically I don't see it. Anyways. "You admitted that instant abilties/hax aren't, and these are basically what Dov also has" Key word basically not exactly instant like Fiamma. Slicing, Thu'um...etc isn't instant. Fiamma or auto target would have already struck before his shout even finished. Examples of these artifacts? Own will =/= instant. There's nothing I see from Dova that prevents him from being one shot immediately. I'm not saying your wrong for saying Dova has those abilties, i'm saying you don't know forsure what Dova does in character.

@Tactical Oh gotcha. I know Dragons could spam them but I'm not sure if its the same for Dragonborn
 
I was referring to Lore and Consistency .

Slicing or any other action is not literal except for Thu'um at least. I mean there is no way you for a cosmic being in Lyg to "slice" Dagon into Mehrunes, which the lore description says the Razor was used but the physical action is not literal. I want to get the idea clarified upon Dovah using artifacts as they already conventional laws, because they are direct extensions of 1-C Princes in TES.

Auto target doesn't mean you can remove the first mover advantage. Unless it falls into speed amplification category, which it isn't. Not to mention, Dov will be likely wearing enchanted gears or at least a Daedric artifact so Fiamma's hax won't probably work. Otherword, Dov still finishes his shout as the first mover advantage specified under Speed Equalisation rule.

"Own will =/= instant."

Yes, they do. Artifacts as extensions of Daedric Princes, or their body parts with own will, already defied conventional laws such as Space-Time. Speed equalisation is irrelevant to them, because they don't care about Speed, Space-Time or Reality. If those artifacts really want to protect Dovah, the Princes absolutely like Dov, then there is nothing to stop them from automatically protecting Dovah.

Extensively, I could argue a certain scenario that Princes really liked Dovah and trying to focefully channel their 1-C power directly killing Fiamma. I won't pursue this course of argument but one thing remains that artifacts has a will, physiology defies speed and space-time and can auto-activate at help of user. I forgot to mention that they can sometimes protect the chosen users from unforseen threats akin to GER for GioGio.
 
Let me see if I understood, Dova is a character that we have virtually no idea about how he acts in character, but in that situation where he knows nothing about his enemy, and that he has access to many things (all his daedric equipment ), are you saying that he, in 100% of cases, goes into the ethereal form because he lost his target from sight?
 
One can argue that Fiamma will not directly use his strongest hax or TP out of sight for seeing Dovah as a chump. He will underrestimate Dovah and ultimately lose when taking a Fus Ro Dah in the face in just a confrontational street fight.

Think Dovahkiin as a composite character in this site, a default one. A cosmic instance that experiences and sees everything compositely. I believed that Link has been argued in this fashion before.

Importantly, VS Battles are all about evaluating the best scenarios and determining the most superior outcome. Factors like attitude and characteristics, a PIS induced criminal in most fiction, should not be considered.
 
Fus Ro Dah really would kill Fiamma? Even if Fiamma underestimates his opponent, the Holy Right's defenses would still be active.

Think of him as a composite character? Okay, but what do you mean by "see and experience everything compositely"?
 
@KingKong Yea I was on there I was wondering u could point out where it says Dragonborn can spam shouts in blog.

How is this vague "slicing" attack instant? "I want to get the idea clarified upon Dovah using artifacts as they already conventional laws, because they are direct extensions of 1-C Princes in TES." And? If this were relevant Dova would be that tier but he's not, you can get these armors in game. "Auto target doesn't mean you can remove the first mover advantage." The HR Auto Purpose acts instantly. The moment Dova makes a move against Fiamma/tries to shout he's one shot instantly or Fiamma uses the strike and he's one shot instantly. Like we have discussed, there's is no indication enchantments will defend against an attack like HR, even the magic resistent ones as the output doesn't fit in the category of equalized magic. "Artifacts as extensions of Daedric Princes" " the Princes absolutely like Dov, then there is nothing to stop them from automatically protecting Dovah." This equivilence doesnt mean anything here and just seems like speculation on your part. If Dova had Tier 1 protection and defense with these items for this key he wouldn't be Tier 6 in game with them. "Extensively, I could argue a certain scenario that Princes really liked Dovah and trying to focefully channel their 1-C power directly killing Fiamma." Lol because SBA rules doesnt allow any outside help. That would be like me arguing a MG acts because they favor Fiamma. "one thing remains that artifacts has a will, physiology defies speed and space-time and can auto-activate at help of user. I forgot to mention that they can sometimes protect the chosen users from unforseen threats akin to GER for GioGio." Show me an example of an artifact instantly acting to Dovakiin's defense because it seems like speculation and is not referenced.
 
It has been debated for a long time so people getting convinced by one side and voting for their reasons is just normal.
 
Then they should point out some reasons why one side is preferable or to whom they reference, not just light-mindedly post FRA without any explanations.
 
XDragnoir said:
Fus Ro Dah really would kill Fiamma? Even if Fiamma underestimates his opponent, the Holy Right's defenses would still be active.
Think of him as a composite character? Okay, but what do you mean by "see and experience everything compositely"?
Click to expand...
Dovahkiin is the Prisoner. Someone who is every gender, every races, and walks all path all at the same time. In C0DA: Landfall, the Nerevarine was described as a shapeless, multi-racial being who quantum-vibrates between several forms.

In his profile: "As a Prisoner, the Dovahkiin is a quantum-being who is simultaneously of every race, every gender, and who walks all path"

So the Dovahkiin experiencing every possibility at once is not really much of a stretch.

The argument should be whether miracle can be equalise to TES magic (which is completely different than normal magic).
 
Zensum said:
@KingKong Yea I was on there I was wondering u could point out where it says Dragonborn can spam shouts in blog.
How is this vague "slicing" attack instant? "I want to get the idea clarified upon Dovah using artifacts as they already conventional laws, because they are direct extensions of 1-C Princes in TES." And? If this were relevant Dova would be that tier but he's not, you can get these armors in game. "Auto target doesn't mean you can remove the first mover advantage." The HR Auto Purpose acts instantly. The moment Dova makes a move against Fiamma/tries to shout he's one shot instantly or Fiamma uses the strike and he's one shot instantly. Like we have discussed, there's is no indication enchantments will defend against an attack like HR, even the magic resistent ones as the output doesn't fit in the category of equalized magic. "Artifacts as extensions of Daedric Princes" " the Princes absolutely like Dov, then there is nothing to stop them from automatically protecting Dovah." This equivilence doesnt mean anything here and just seems like speculation on your part. If Dova had Tier 1 protection and defense with these items for this key he wouldn't be Tier 6 in game with them. "Extensively, I could argue a certain scenario that Princes really liked Dovah and trying to focefully channel their 1-C power directly killing Fiamma." Lol because SBA rules doesnt allow any outside help. That would be like me arguing a MG acts because they favor Fiamma. "one thing remains that artifacts has a will, physiology defies speed and space-time and can auto-activate at help of user. I forgot to mention that they can sometimes protect the chosen users from unforseen threats akin to GER for GioGio." Show me an example of an artifact instantly acting to Dovakiin's defense because it seems like speculation and is not referenced.
Click to expand...
Lore taking precedence over Gameplay, proving cooldown as a gameplay mechanic. That's why TacticalNuke002 trying to say, and it is more than enough for my case. Another implication in the lore that Wulfharth can't speak too loud, which his yell and loudspeaking alone can channel Thu'um power. It is just much like speaking, and there isn't more add to it.

"And? If this were relevant Dova would be that tier but he's not, you can get these armors in 'game'."

The idea that those artifacts have been used by Princes, differing in power, but their cosmic form remains. Clavicus Vile still says Rueful Axe as a cosmic artifact. The relevant aspect is that there is no trouble of how Dovah using it and there is nothing can part his access to his Daedric arsenal.

"The HR Auto Purpose acts instantly. The moment Dova makes a move against Fiamma/tries to shout he's one shot instantly or Fiamma uses the strike and he's one shot instantly. Like we have discussed, there's is no indication enchantments will defend against an attack like HR, even the magic 'resistent' ones as the output doesn't fit in the category of equalized magic."

How can he know Fiamma tries to kill him? If the guy uses Become Ethereal, he should be fine as the shout is not a direct threat against Fiamma. Bending reality through Mehrunes Razor, on the offensive argument, would mean Fiamma would never have ability in the first place. Again, I really suspect this HR Auto Purpose as a flowery language NLF. It can auto attack but does not show a degree of instinctive protection of a being walks through all possibilities. You have to prove how does it actually knows Dovah at all.

"This 'equivilence' 'doesnt' mean anything here and just seems like speculation on your part. If Dova had Tier 1 protection and defense with these items for this key he wouldn't be Tier 6 in 'game' with them."

Standard Equipment is not covered within the Key. If certain outside skills or artifacts not inherent to the character, they can still defy the Tier system even in the Key.

"Lol because SBA rules ''doesnt'' allow any outside help. That would be like me arguing 'a MG' acts because they favor Fiamma"

Taken from SBA.

Exceptions are things like blessings, calling upon some higher entities power for a spell, summoning familiars to battle for them, having another character as equipment or more generally spoken the things which are listed on the profile as part of 'a characters' own powers and abilities.

Any chosen wielder of artifacts is already blessed, which Boethiah directly said so upon receiving Ebony Mail. Miraak got a certain degree of outside protection, and it is a blessing. Another interesting aspect of this rule is that all artifacts are body parts (characteristic aspects) of Daedric Princes, so Dovah technically wields an autonomous conscious cosmic body part. If Fiamma poses a threat to the rightful champion and the artifact, it is highly possible for them acting on its own within Dovah's favor.

Show me an example of an artifact instantly acting to Dovakiin's defense because it seems like speculation and is not referenced.

It is a speculation supported in the lore. Umbra in Lords of Soul acts own its own will to sap away Clavicus Vile power is a prime example, which one can extrapolate a certain assumption totally possible like I have made. The Skull of Corruption in Skyrim whispers into your ears to protect itself and promises of giving you power.


More importantly, you have to prove the magic system of TAMNN like those miracles can be equalise to TES magic (which is completely different than normal magic).
 
so we're giving equipment 1C (or higher, idk) for a high 6As fight? Seriously? Take it away from him or leave him with the less powerful.
 
Marquis Samigina said:
Then they should point out some reasons why one side is preferable or to whom they reference, not just light-mindedly post FRA without any explanations.
Click to expand...
That's a fair point.
 
@KingKong Alright that Lore example for cooldowns makes sense.

"The idea that those artifacts have been used by Princes, differing in power, but their cosmic form remains. Clavicus Vile still says Rueful Axe as a cosmic artifact. The relevant aspect is that there is no trouble of how Dovah using it and there is nothing can part his access to his Daedric arsenal" Ok but what I mean by relevant is it's power is no where near where an actual prince would be tiered or he would be that tier Mid Game.

"How can he know Fiamma tries to kill him? If the guy uses Become Ethereal, he should be fine as the shout is not a direct threat against Fiamma. Bending reality through Mehrunes Razor, on the offensive argument, would mean Fiamma would never have ability in the first place." Fiamma doesn't need knowledge of a threat. Become Ethereal still has a duration which isn't mechanics and he can't interact with anything while using it. Also the starting distance is 4KM based on range, why would this be the intial thing used before he's instantly struck? Dova doesn't have precog so he wouldn't know to defend or even see it coming. "I really suspect this HR Auto Purpose as a flowery language NLF." Auto Purpose intercepted a light speed attack while Fiamma was having a conversation. Fiamma himself doesn't need to make an action it instantly adapts to anything threatening or harmful by producing the most suitble output. "degree of instinctive protection of a being walks through all possibilities." This sentence doesn't mean anything. Its "exists outside of all Possibility" per the profile as in acasaulity not experinces all posibilities.

"Standard Equipment is not covered within the Key. If certain outside skills or artifacts not inherent to the character, they can still defy the Tier system even in the Key." Standard equipment is covered by the key its listed in the standard equipment section. From the profile "Standard Equipment: Variable. Numerous weapons, armors, relics and items acquired throughout their journey" The artifacts are things you can get in game for Dovakiin yet they dont raise his tier to 2 or 1. "Taken from SBA." I'm talking about literally having the being intervene per SBA not blessings and enchantments which are fine.

"Another interesting aspect of this rule is that all artifacts are body parts (characteristic aspects) of Daedric Princes, so Dovah technically wields an autonomous conscious cosmic body part. If Fiamma poses a threat to the rightful champion and the artifact, it is highly possible for them acting on its own within Dovah's favor." Having a mind/will of you own doesnt mean it can produce instant attacks or defense. "It is a speculation supported in the lore. Umbra in Lords of Soul acts own its own will to sap away Clavicus Vile power is a prime example, which one can extrapolate a certain assumption totally possible like I have made. The Skull of Corruption in Skyrim whispers into your ears to protect itself and promises of giving you power." These two things you stated aren't instant defense you can't extroplate that from different active abilties and say it saves Dova from being instantly killed.

"More importantly, you have to prove the magic system of TAMNN like those miracles can be equalise to TES magic (which is completely different than normal magic)." Nah Magic equalizes with other verses in matches. Systems vary heavily from verse to verse TES is no exception. Or else Idol Theory would only be compatable with like Nasu Magecraft or something like that. Miracles are another category in verse from magic.
 
The Rueful Axe is actually Low 2-C since the Dovahkiin at that point of time wasn't strong enough to kill Barbas (low 2-C doge) and it was the only weapon that let him.
 
TacticalNuke002 said:
The Rueful Axe is actually Low 2-C since the Dovahkiin at that point of time wasn't strong enough to kill Barbas (low 2-C doge) and it was the only weapon that let him.
Click to expand...
So that would be in his End Game/DLC Key assumingly
 
Its available to him at any point. Side quests don't have any relation to the main questline which is where his keys come from. Especially since this is a vanilla Skyrim side quest which you can randomly find while roaming around near Falkreath (was it?).
 
Yes. But there's still the issue of whether he'll use it or not.

So, based on the equipment and starting move of the Dovahkiin, its either Dovah stomps or Fiamma does.
 
Indeed. I still lean toward Fiamma cause it's a melee weapon and SBA distance is 4KM but ya that evens it out more. OP should probably clarify everything tbh
 
There's also The Skeleton Key, artifact of Nocturnal. Its a conceptual tool that is based on the word "unlock". It can be unlocking anything from locks, doorways, opportunities, memories, potential, the feelings of the heart, secrets etc.

Dovahkiin can use it to unlock his true potential, power up to low 2-C and slap.

Whether he does it or not is up for grabs tho lol.
 
Xtasyamphetamine said:
SBA is in effect, not sure what else I should specify.
Click to expand...
A specific full set of equipment rather than just "all daedric artifacts".

It still won't help much cuz "Which of the Shouts will he use?".
 
You should make it more clear what weapons are in this match cause they most likely overlap with his 2-C key weapons like Tactical was saying making this a stomp.
 
Ok but what I mean by relevant is 'it's' power is 'no where' near where an actual prince would be tiered or he would be that tier Mid Game.

The cosmic property still remains the same. Such property is the strong tie between the wielder and artifact that no one can separate them apart. The method of usage can be translated the same cosmically, but the dosage of power is different. You use the true power of Mehrunes Razor, and that involves more than a "slice" or "stab". I am repeating the very fact that there is nothing Fiamma can do to stop Dovah from using the artifacts or seperate artifacts from Dovah's possession.

Fiamma doesn't need knowledge of a threat. Become Ethereal still has a duration which isn't mechanics and he can't interact with anything while using it. 'Also' the starting distance is 4KM based on range, why would this be the 'intial' thing used before he's instantly struck? Dova doesn't have precog so he wouldn't know to defend or even see it coming.

The duration is gameplay mechanic. The italicized part on the description of shout is the lore. This reminds of an Alteration skill book that describes a mage uses spells like Ironflesh, and it doesn't mention any cooldown that happens only in the game.

Why wouldn't he or she? Dovah walks all paths, so he or she comprehends all personalities and characters at once. There will be a personality that the hero ultilized to cast Become Ethereal and walk around the planet to find Fiamma. Again, Dovah has teleportation as well.

Dovah already had precog. His Prisoner physiology allows him outside of Time, and "walk all path" with perception of all possibilities. Even a possibility of 99.99% losing does not work The Prisoner physiology (The Vestige has the same metaphysic).

Auto Purpose intercepted a light speed attack while Fiamma was having a conversation. Fiamma himself doesn't need to make an action it instantly adapts to anything threatening or harmful by producing the most 'suitble' output.

Dovah has immeasurable speed, so it does not seem impressive in comparison. Not to mention that 99.99% of Dov attacks will be reality warping and ignorance against conventional laws. It appears that Auto Purpose would lose big time, and one more thing that I haven't explored that Dov also has mindhax with both Magicka and Thu'um. He can use Dismay as a shout or a simple gesture of waving his hand to mind **** Fiamma. As you described, the Auto Purpose seems to protect against physical harm attacks.

This sentence doesn't mean anything. Its "exists outside of all Possibility" per the profile as in 'acasaulity' 'not' 'experinces' all 'posibilities'.

As a Prisoner, the Dovahkiin is a quantum-being who is simultaneously of every race, every gender, and who walks all paths.

This bolded part is important

The artifacts are things you can get in 'game' for Dovakiin yet they 'dont' raise his tier to 2 or 1

I don't argue he can be a 1-C/1-B God if he uses Staff of Magnus or Auriel's Bow at the full lore extent. However, there are certain artifacts can be acquired even in the Early Game Dovahkiin since the Key definitely frames on Main Questline. I am arguing on the ground of reality warping effects and cosmic powers that they behold. These powers certainly outmatched against Fiamma's favors.

I'm talking about literally having the being intervene per SBA not blessings and enchantments which are fine.

There is a hole in the rule here. Daedric artifacts are body extensions of Daedric Princes, and they can draw power against their Masters like Clavicus Vile with Umbra. Daedric Princes sometimes don't guard their power closely, which it is very easy for artifacts leaking the Prince's power and influence into the world. In a book written Yagrum the last Dwarf, he basically discussed how Daedric Princes creating a hole in the Mundus Barriers through throwing artifacts onto Nirn in order to leak their power. As the result, most Princes are reckless in handling their power as their artifacts leak power crazily onto Tamriel. Umbra almost killed Clavicus Vile was a prime example of that.

A certain possibility, as Dov walks all path, can happen any Daedric artifact feels very urgent as it draws more power from any Daedric realm of origin. If that happens, it would be a 1-C vs 6-A match that I don't have time to explore. This scenario will be artifact drawing power directly, and not restricted by the Key.

Having a mind/will of 'you' own 'doesnt' mean it can produce instant attacks or defense.

Yes, it does. Amulet of Kings wielded by the Vestige demonstrates my point; however, it is in our case that Dov will likely wear a piece of Daedric gear. It is already a passive protection itself. Another point for Amulet of Kings is that everytime CoC tries to wear the artifact, it automatically slips away from his hand which shows artifact can move. It is possible to imagine Ebony Blade slips into your hands to instantly protect you, not covered by Skyrim gameplay mechanic.

These two things you stated aren't 'instant' defense you can't 'extroplate' that from different active 'abilties' and say it saves Dova from being instantly killed.

I haven't found anything convincing about your "instant defense". It sounds for me like a flowery language hyperbole, while it isn't GER in any sense. My point is more convincing in the aspect of how artifacts actually function in a possible way of protecting users under extrapolation. There is nothing in Fiamma profile demonstrates that he can instantly kill with gaze or something.

While Umbra or Ebony Blade ultilized in the lore, they can kill people from radius of village to almost a nation. They can kill people without stabbing and just presence alone can instantly soul trap due to the fact that they draw power from Daedric Princes directly exerting the Princely presence into the targeted realm.

Nah Magic equalizes with other verses in matches. Systems vary heavily from verse to verse TES is no exception. Or else Idol Theory would only be 'compatable' with like Nasu Magecraft or something like that. Miracles are another category in verse from magic.

This is why I brought SBA. You clearly violated the rule.
 
Xtasyamphetamine said:
Should I just say "Dova is limited to High 6-A equipment only"
Click to expand...
Most artifacts aren't Tier-based. Auriel's Bow, for example, can be ranked High 1-B for allegedly killing Lorkhan and taking away his Heart. You can strip the part of "channeling High 1-B power" to prevent any chosen user in TES using it to rolfstomp entire TAMNN verse. The magical property of immeasurable attack speed and creating a solar apocalypse comparable to Storm Call shout (has been calc) remains intact as Gelebor described they are lesser powers of true Bow.

Skeleton Key case is an exceptional case of having power defies Tier system through having no definite hax based on AP. The Key may sound NLF if one argues it can unlock Fiamma's greatest fear or any weakness of Fiamma with a thought, and Dov can instantly win. There is a well-documented feat that it unlocks the secret of Sotha Sil's power and puts a 1-C god into a coma. Even if you strip its "unlocking and stealing 1-C power", the key will still be able to unlock hidden potentials and possibilities. It will sound more NLF than GER in Jojo.
 
After this match, people gonna strip all TES heroes from using legendary artifacts in Versus matches. Sigh! Guys like Eternal Champion or Hero of Daggerfall will be very dissappointed.

Alright, I am going to sleep here. Bye
 
Well it's either that or they don't get matches because those matches would often turn out to be stomps.
 
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