Fallout Unfucking-Up Thread

[Idazmi]

Can you give the source or quote?

2067 - The first suit of Power Armor is deployed in Alaska. While lacking the full mobility of future versions, this Power Armor is incredibly effective against Chinese tanks and infantry. Its ability to carry heavy ordinance becomes key in various localized conflicts, and it has the power to destroy entire towns without endangering the wearer. - written by Chris Avellone.

"(...) A combination of inclement weather, constant American bombardment and trench warfare, and U.S. Powered Armor unit attacks sweeping through mainline China, the Chinese supply lines weakened and finally broke down completely. By the beginning of 2077, the city of Anchorage was finally liberated, the Chinese eradicated, and the operation deemed a success. A commemorative memorial was erected in Washington, D.C., in honor of the soldiers who fought and perished for the greater American good. Violence between America and pockets of Canadian freedom fighters continued throughout 2077, until the Great War obliterated almost all infrastructure, commerce, and human life." - Fallout 3 Official game guide.

China notably has an extreme manpower advantage over the U.S. allowing them to sustain a far larger infantry.

Cutting through several feat of steel is still a 9-B to 9-A feat. The main shot from a M1 Abrams tank is 9-B+. Getting killed by those weapons still indicates that the armor cannot be more than 9-A.

Excuse me, it can be 9-B according to what you just said. The video I posted shows roughly an inch and a quarter inch of titanium rejecting various ammo all the way up to 50 BMG. Let's look at the thickness of Power Armor:

I think you'd have some significant trouble trying to shoot through that with a 5.56 Service Rifle, or 5mm Assault Rifle. It's also spaced armor made in several layers - look at the pauldrons. Add the lightweight composite layer and the ablative coating on top of the metallic thickness you see here, and remember the composite shell alone can resist more than 2.5 kilojoules.

From the Fatman and Mininukes they are. Which is what was used against her.

You're measuring that based on the same gameplay mechanics you're rejecting. This is what the Fatman mininuke is based on, friend:



Of course, they had to reduce the blast size in gameplay, but there's no reason to assume the blast is gameplay small in lore.

You overlooked both Raider engagements from Fallout 3, Danse' logs, and the Legion faction ending for the Mojave BoS. They are not able bullet immune, just heavily resistant. Enough gunfire will bring them down.

The same Danse who survived a rocket engine to the face? You're ignoring that the raiders need to have weapons able to actually damage the armor. And Fallout 3 gives us the Battle of Anchorage and it's Power Armor being immune to small arms, and the way you destroy the BoS for the Legion is the Courier engaging the Mojave bunker's self-destruct nuke, or killing all the Paladins in the bunker - without Legion army support. Caesar doesn't even try to send any of his Legionaries to support the attack.

A pistol caliber 10mm packs much less force than a rifle or minigun bullet due to different velocities

And the eye-slit of the armor is much less resistant than the metal torso.

Guess you're right. We either scale them to the scripted laser cutscene or love them to 9-B.

Seems more like you don't want Power Armor to be 9-B, rather than you actually having viable evidence for them being lower than that.

EDIT: had to replace the picture. Open the image in a new tab to see it full size.

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

The Fact that The Courier can solo the BoS Bunker is pretty nuts to be honest. Even if you set the Self-Destruct, you still have to fight your way out to get away from the Explosion. It's kinda like The Lone Survivor in Raven Rock.

 

[Qawsedf234]

China notably has an extreme manpower advantage over the U.S. allowing them to sustain a far larger infantry.

Neither source said what you implied in your previous post. Power Armor allows soldiers to carry heavy ordnance without strain, which was their notable advantage. Not defensive invulnerability.

composite shell alone can resist more than 2.5 kilojoules.

The average .50 BMG shot packs 18 kilojoules of energy. In fact the outer layer can be reliably penetrated by 7.62 rounds which support my previous points about sustained gunfire killing them.

You're measuring that based on the same gameplay mechanics you're rejecting. This is what the Fatman mininuke is based on, friend:

The Davy Crockett warhead weighs about 50 pounds, or 25 times the weight of a mini-nuke. The Davy Crockett also maxes at like 20-40 tons of TNT. Which in Ingram's case hit a cliff far before it hit her.

As before, the feat is at best 9-A, but probably 9-B considering inverse square law.

You're ignoring that the raiders need to have weapons able to actually damage the armor

The heaviest ordnance the Raider's and Legion packed in those cases are rockets, grenades, and large caliber assualt rifles. Far below 9-A. The fact they all canonically die to those group means they are not consistently 9-A or none of those things would kill them.

And Fallout 3 gives us the Battle of Anchorage and it's Power Armor being immune to small arms,

Not only are they not immune to small arms fire, the simulation was altered to the point of being Chase's fantasy according to an engineer working on the project.

Seems more like you don't want Power Armor to be 9-B, rather than you actually having viable evidence for them being lower than that.

They have far more counter evidence to 9-A than they do for 8-C. Let alone for naked player characters scaling to Power Armor which is what the OP was implying.

 

[Idazmi]

Neither source said what you implied in your previous post. Power Armor allows soldiers to carry heavy ordnance without strain, which was their notable advantage. Not defensive invulnerability.

The part about it being able to destroy entire town without endangering the wearer just flew past you? And that was just the T-45, let alone T-51 and T-60.

The average .50 BMG shot packs 18 kilojoules of energy. In fact the outer layer can be reliably penetrated by 7.62 rounds which support my previous points about sustained gunfire killing them.

No, it doesn't because the outer layer is the green "paint" you can see scuffed off Paladin Rhombus' armor there. The rest is titanium, not composite.

The Davy Crockett warhead weighs about 50 pounds, or 25 times the weight of a mini-nuke. The Davy Crockett also maxes at like 20-40 tons of TNT. Which in Ingram's case hit a cliff far before it hit her.

As before, the feat is at best 9-A, but probably 9-B considering inverse square law.

Look at that: you're using gameplay based weight limits! Next you'll tell me Power Armor weighs 45 pounds!

(It doesn't weigh 45 pounds)

Also, some mininuke lore:

The M42 Fat Man was developed at Fort Strong near Boston, Massachusetts. Development began in February 2076, with the goal being the development of a man-portable tactical nuclear launcher easy enough for use by troops on the ground, to destroy reinforced and entrenched positions. Problems manifested instantly, as warheads were simply too heavy to clear the blast radius fast enough to provide safety for the operator. Even stripping them to the minimal possible size failed to produce an acceptable effect. Instead, the development team decided to increase the power of the launcher unit, even considering using railgun technology to accelerate the warhead. The notion was largely academic, as it would require for the overburdened soldier to carry an additional power pack the size of a suitcase and turn the Fat Man into a crew-served weapon. Concurrent development ran on the MIRV version of the launcher. Live-fire testing claimed lives, in fact, with two soldiers killed during a test. No remains were recovered and the commanding officer in charge of the project, General Brock, covered up the incident, ordering his subordinates to send sand packed in an urn to their relatives.

The project hit a breakthrough in December 2076, when the project lead discovered a solution for the launcher problems. Six hours, fourteen cups, and one concerned night shift lab crew later, the future M42 launcher was conceptualized: Based on the spigot mortar mechanism, the launcher would only have to accommodate a firing through and system, relying on mechanical launching, rather than chemical or electrical means. Much like the 130 year old PIAT launcher, the Fat Man warhead would be propelled by a sub-charge embedded inside the warhead, "catapulting" the warhead through the air to the target - giving plenty of range with the added bonus of not producing a smoke trail that could reveal the firing team to the enemy.

By September 2077, after one hundred test firings the weapon were complete and ready to be shipped to units overseas. A large number of units was manufactured and shipped together with the appropriate warheads to select locations throughout the United States.

That's no 2 pound bomb. It's a 9-B feat, at least.

The heaviest ordnance the Raider's and Legion packed in those cases are rockets, grenades, and large caliber assualt rifles. Far below 9-A. The fact they all canonically die to those group means they are not consistently 9-A or none of those things would kill them.

Again, the Legion does not fight the Brotherhood. The Courier does, by order of Caesar, ALONE. And the Raiders in Fallout 4 are shown using power armor and energy weapons.

Not only are they not immune to small arms fire, the simulation was altered to the point of being Chase's fantasy according to an engineer working on the project.

Isn't it convenient that neither of my sources was general Chase's simulation? Chris Avellone just so happens to be one of Fallout's "Word of God" sources, being a man who worked on a lot of Fallout's lore. The other reference is from Fallout 3's official guide.

They have far more counter evidence to 9-A than they do for 8-C. Let alone for naked player characters scaling to Power Armor which is what the OP was implying.

You're currently discussing this with me, and by the evidence you are bringing, they're sure as hell above 9-A and typical gunfire.

EDIT: multiple formatting edits.

 

[Qawsedf234]

No, it doesn't because the outer layer is the green "paint" you can see scuffed off Paladin Rhombus' armor there. The rest is titanium, not composite.

How did Rhombus enter the conversation? The 2.5 kj statement is from the ZAX and 2.5 kilojoules is barely better than what the AK 47 fires (2,100~ joules) and far below what a .50 BMG packs (18,000~ joules). Sustained gunfire from most assault rifles will breech it and heavy weapons will pierce through it. Its why random Fallout 3 Raider gangs could take out Enclave stations, why the Legion defeated the Midwestern Brotherhood of Steel, why the NCR beat the Western Brotherhood, and how Danse's crew got killed by other Raiders.

Look at that: you're using gameplay based weight limits!

I'm using the hardcore weight to compare the two warheads. If anything its not even a single ton of TNT considering how small the explosion is.

That's no 2 pound bomb. It's a 9-B feat, at least.

Yeah, and those weapons will kill people in power armor if it lands near them.

Isn't it convenient that neither of my sources was general Chase's simulation?

You mentioned the Battle of Anchorage in relation to Fallout 3

Again, the Legion does not fight the Brotherhood.

They have. The Centurions' armor features BoS PA they got from the East and they still assault the base in the New Vegas ending.

During the fight for Hoover Dam, the Brotherhood took HELIOS One, inflicting heavy damage on retreating NCR forces, but it was a pyrrhic victory. Once The Strip was secured, Caesar's forces overwhelmed and eventually routed the Brotherhood from HELIOS One and Hidden Valley.

So yeah, they fight and defeat the Brotherhood on two occasions in their ending.

Chris Avellone just so happens to be one of Fallout's "Word of God" sources, being a man who worked on a lot of Fallout's lore

Its from the Fallout Bible, which is noted as being less priority compared to the main games with other quotes like this

Some of the lore that really... was written, y'know, back in the day. It makes sense and we use that and put it in our games. We don't just assume that everything in the Bible is canon. We have to take it step-by-step inside. It's a judgement call.

But even that quote does not support the point that they are immune to small arms fire. The key takeaway was that they can carry heavy ordnance. Which is a major advantage in any fire fight .

You're currently discussing this with me, and by the evidence you are bringing, they're sure as hell above 9-A and typical gunfire.

I'm sure how you get that considering the consistent amount of times they've been killed by guns. From Raiders, to Super Mutants, to the Legion, to the NCR.

 

[Keeweed]

When it comes to the ncr the game much more focuses on how out numbered the brotherhood was rather than their (the ncr’s) weapons. I’ll find the quotes right now but I don’t see the ncr killing them as an anti feat. Especially since there are pulse ammo meant to kill people in power armor and we have no clue what the ncr actually did to kill them. The legion is in the same boat, but I’ll grab some quotes, I know mister house has a good one referring much more to the outnumberment of the brotherhood rather than the weapons.
“Shiny power armor don’t count for much when you’re outnumbered 15:1”.

The game takes the outnumberment as the reason the brotherhood lost.

Based off the quote from the Courier, posted earlier in this thread, when someone says power armor can be pierced by bullets he laughed at the guy. Why would the visor be immune to 10 mm bullets to the point the Courier gets actively pissed at someone for saying they could shoot through it, but the main armor can causally be shot apart by raider weapons, which are usually pipe guns. Same with super mutant guns they usually have low caliber guns so it makes no sense for the visor to be able to stop the bullets but not the armor itself.

The Courier doesn’t even say they are only immune to 10 mm he says they are generically bullet proof and the guy he was talking to didn’t even say the correct caliber so the Courier was most likely referring to bullets in general.

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

KeeWeed has a point.

 

[Idazmi]

How did Rhombus enter the conversation? The 2.5 kj statement is from the ZAX and 2.5 kilojoules is barely better than what the AK 47 fires (2,100~ joules) and far below what a .50 BMG packs (18,000~ joules). Sustained gunfire from most assault rifles will breech it and heavy weapons will pierce through it. Its why random Fallout 3 Raider gangs could take out Enclave stations, why the Legion defeated the Midwestern Brotherhood of Steel, why the NCR beat the Western Brotherhood, and how Danse's crew got killed by other Raiders.

Rhombus is this son of a gun:

See the scuffed paint on his left pauldron (your right)? That'st the part that's described as taking 2.5 kilojoules. That's the lightweight composite shell: the armor under that is titanium, and is not so "easy" to damage (as you can tell from it's un-dented, pristine appearance). You're taking the durability of the composite coating and applying it to the entire armorsuit: that not just a fallacy, it's an extreme fallacy. I just posted a video showing how much titanium can take, and it's well above 5.56. It stopped 50 BMG.

I'm using the hardcore weight to compare the two warheads. If anything its not even a single ton of TNT considering how small the explosion is.

Ergo, you're fine using game mechanics over lore when it suits you. The lore contradicts you, as the mininuke is confirmed in lore to have vaporized two soldiers during testing. It's not a mere ton of TNT - it's a nuke. One so heavy they had difficulty firing it to a safe distance... but you go right ahead and use gameplay to override lore, exactly what you told me NOT to do.

Yeah, and those weapons will kill people in power armor if it lands near them.

Like Ingram, who survived?

You mentioned the Battle of Anchorage in relation to Fallout 3

Which is not the only source regarding the Battle of Anchorage, friend, far from it. Fallout has a very detailed lore.

They have. The Centurions' armor features BoS PA they got from the East and they still assault the base in the New Vegas ending.

Nope. That was taken from NCR's Heavy Troopers, who use T-45 Power Armor - salvaged from Helios One - with the electronics and motors stripped out for mobile area denial. Interestingly, this implies the suits survived where their owners did not.

So yeah, they fight and defeat the Brotherhood on two occasions in their ending.

When you play on the side of the Legion, Caesar orders the Courier to destroy the Brotherhood long before their ending quest: making that ending unattainable in an unmodded game. Unless you're saying the Legion defeated the much smaller Brotherhood remnant after their base was destroyed.

Its from the Fallout Bible, which is noted as being less priority compared to the main games with other quotes like this

Guess what? The main games actually don't contradict it.

But even that quote does not support the point that they are immune to small arms fire. The key takeaway was that they can carry heavy ordnance. Which is a major advantage in any fire fight .

Again: the part about it being able to destroy entire town without endangering the wearer just flew past you? Like that whole section of sentence just doesn't exist?

I'm sure how you get that considering the consistent amount of times they've been killed by guns. From Raiders, to Super Mutants, to the Legion, to the NCR.

Because, as demonstrated above, you are stretching logic by quite a bit to reach your preferred conclusion, instead of taking the facts to their logical conclusion.

EDIT: had to replace the picture of Rhombus. Open the image in a new tab to see it full size.

 

[Qawsedf234]

specially since there are pulse ammo meant to kill people in power armor and we have no clue what the ncr actually did to kill them.

The only pulse weapons in that game are: The Pulse Gun (which the NCR wouldn't have), pulse mines (which aren't good when you're attacking), pulse grenades, and pulse shotgun shells. The last two are what they could have and there's no indication that they armed every single soldier with those. Conventional firearms work with Raiders and the Legion so I don't see why they wouldn't just use them there as well.

Why would the visor be immune to 10 mm bullets to the point the Courier gets actively pissed at someone for saying they could shoot through it, but the main armor can causally be shot apart by raider weapons, which are usually pipe guns. Same with super mutant guns they usually have low caliber guns so it makes no sense for the visor to be able to stop the bullets but not the armor itself.

Super Mutants use hunting rifle which use the .308 Round (3,500~ joules). They actually hit much harder than a standard assaults rifle round. Raiders in Fallout 3 and New Vegas also don't pipe weapons, but scavenged military or stolen energy weapons. So you're underselling what they're brining to the table.

See the scuffed paint on his left pauldron (your right)? That'st the part that's described as taking 2.5 kilojoules.

No, that's the paint. The quote is this

Made of the latest poly-laminate composite, the T-51b shell is lightweight and capable of absorbing over 2,500 Joules of kinetic impact.

What's under the armor is the Power Armor Frame. The shell is literally the armor, past the plates you have the frame not more armor,

Ergo, you're fine using game mechanics over lore when it suits you. The lore contradicts you, as the mininuke is confirmed in lore to have vaporized two soldiers during testing. It's not a mere ton of TNT - it's a nuke. One so heavy they had difficulty firing it to a safe distance... but you go right ahead and use gameplay to override lore, exactly what you told me NOT to do.

The two soldiers it killed are those at point blank detonation

We lost two good soldiers this morning. They were on the surface testing a MIRV variant of the launcher, when one of the warheads misfired and hit the ground right where they were standing. Poor bastards didn't even have a chance. We couldn't even find any remains to send home to their folks, so Brock told us to just fill some cans with sand. I'll tell you, that guy doesn't give a crap about us, he's just worried about the brass back in Washington giving him a hard time.

Finding no remains also doesn't equal vaporization. Being reduced to gore chunks is also a option which is possibly considering what normal conventual explosives can do.

Like Ingram, who survived?

While in Power Armor and on the edge of the explosion, the shockwave knocked her off and the fall (and possibly the explosive itself) permanently crippled her. That's not a good showing for it.

But to further this point, this is a British Centurion tank. This tank would be utterly annihilated by a modern tank, which fires shells that are at most 9-B+ in our system. I bring this up because one of these tanks was completely undamaged by a 2-10 kiloton nuke while being 320 meters away from it. What I'm getting at is that the distance between her and the mini-nuke means she's not going to be hit by enough energy to put the feat more than 9-A, and that's really stretching it.

Nope. That was taken from NCR's Heavy Troopers, who use T-45 Power Armor - salvaged from Helios One - with the electronics and motors stripped out for mobile area denial. Interestingly, this implies the suits survived where their owners did not.

The Legion has attacked the Midwestern Brotherhood before

Courier 6: What do you think of the Brotherhood of Steel?|

Caesar:
The worst impulses of mankind, concentrated in one insane, backward tribe. The Brotherhood seems to have formed not long after the great atomic war. It's hard to know - they care little for history. Some of the Brotherhood scribes we captured further East didn't even know the name of their founder, Roger Maxson.

But the bigger issue with this, is the Salvaged Power Armor itself. The NCR completely strips out the shoulder pauldrons, which is not reflected on the Centurion's armor. In other words, no, they did not get the pieces from Salvaged Power Armor. They got it from T-45 armor with the intact shoulders. Considering that they can infact defeat the Brotherhood in a direct fight and have fought them in the East, they got it from them and not the NCR.

When you play on the side of the Legion, Caesar orders the Courier to destroy the Brotherhood long before their ending quest: making that ending unattainable in an unmodded game. Unless you're saying the Legion defeated the much smaller Brotherhood remnant after their base was destroyed.

The ending is in the base game. You can even convince Caeser to stand down in attacking them

Courier 6: When the Legion attacks Hoover Dam, the Brotherhood will attack HELIOS One.

Caesar: And you think the value of their attack on HELIOS, the chaos it will sow behind the Profligates' lines, is worth letting them live. All right, let it be so. The Brotherhood will have to be dealt with eventually, but for the moment, they live to serve.

Even if we ignore it, Caesar just sorta says outright that the Legion could beat them but at a high cost

Courier 6: Is it really necessary to destroy the Brotherhood?

Caesar: If I say the Brotherhood should be destroyed, it's necessary. My Legion can win a fight against the Brotherhood of Steel, but it would be costly. Your job is to make sure there's no Brotherhood for us to fight.

Which is again, consistent with the NCR stuff.

Guess what? The main games actually don't contradict it.

Well, for one, they do contradict the idea that PA is bulletproof or makes a solider able to wade through sustained gunfire without risk. But Chris himself has said the Bible is non-canon. Bethesda choses what's canon in it, but its not like, default canon on its own anymore.

Again: the part about it being able to destroy entire town without endangering the wearer just flew past you?

No, but a squad with giant weapons can indeed level a town with minimal risk with explosives or heavy guns.

instead of taking the facts to their logical conclusion.

Okay, we aren't getting anywhere here. Going back to the point of this thread do you agree with using HP to durability scale the PCs?

Because that's the point of this thread. Power Armor was used to show that the above doesn't make sense lore wise, since the PCs are less durable than they are and the armor cannot easily take with the OP was implying the could with the above scaling.

 

[Keeweed]

I just rechecked. I thought pulse ammo was a thing, but I just watched to much fallout new Vegas multiplayer and didn’t realize the ammo was modded.

However that still doesn’t account for the fact the game takes the outnumberment of the brotherhood by ncr as the down fall, not the weapons. If Power could easily be pierced by bullet they should have been completely obliterated since it was 15:1 and the ncr would have been able to bomb them to hell with any explosive.

The Legion quote says it would take massive difficulty for them to win and this is against a vastly weakened Brotherhood.

If you count Super Mutants having laser rifles then that’s the reason they can kill people with Power Armor, like how Idazmi pointed out Raiders can have power armor and laser rifles.

The PA dying to bullets or not does matter because if they aren’t 9-B we should calc the rocket feat and possibly the vaporization or incineration of sentry bots and Mirelurk Queens (I know you said you wanted to use scripted events only, but many other verses use in game stuff all the time and even Fallout has used the in game vaporization of bears, I don’t see a reason we should suddenly become vastly stricter with the feats)

 

[Qawsedf234]

If Power could easily be pierced by bullet they should have been completely obliterated since it was 15:1 and any the ncr would have been able to bomb to hell with any explosive.

I wouldn't say so. In Fallout artillery, mortars, and the like are rather rare. The Legion only has one howitzer which was considered a major weapon to have, the Boomers were so dangerous both the NCR and Legion took great lengths to avoid a direct conflict, and the Minutemen's Artillery thing is a noted special aspect about their faction.

Also I'm not saying they can be easily pierced by a bullet. I'm saying they cannot handle sustained gunfire, which they can't even in game.

The Legion quote says it would take massive difficulty for them to win and this is against a vastly weakened Brotherhood.

But they can do it, and the Legion isn't packing extremely heavy weapons and a lot of their stuff is melee focused.

If you count Super Mutants having laser rifles then that’s the reason they can kill people with Power Armor, like how Idazmi pointed out Raiders can have power armor and laser rifles.

They do have energy weapons, but most just use standard kinetic weapons and were dangerous enough to be a threat to multiple Brotherhood chapters and even defeated an Enclave mining outpost in Fallout 2.

The PA dying to bullets does matter because if they aren’t 9-B we should calc the rocket feat and possibly the vaporization or incineration of sentry bots and Mirelurk Queens (I know you said you wanted to use scripted events only, but many other verses use in game stuff all the time and even Fallout has used the in game vaporization of bears, I don’t see a reason we should suddenly become vastly stricter with the feats)

Because Lore > Gameplay. If the lore version of these suits are weaker than what game mechanic scaling says they are, then we don't use the game mechanics.

 

[Keeweed]

Did they specifically state how the super mutants took over that place? Also two things Fallout 1 and 2 are vastly different from 3 onward. And second the game is really contradictory on what can destroy PA. As pointed out earlier people died from falling in the armor but other people survived the same testing. The Courier gets actively pissed when he hears someone say they shot through power armor and Danis survived that rocket, but the mutants killed the enclave base.
I can see why you would say they are 9-B, but I think the newer games contradict it too much, like having the Brotherhood fight a 15:1 battle without just immediately being slaughtered, or the Courier’s statement and Danis feat, plus their main stick is surviving laser rifles and those vaporize people at least. Should point out characters like Ky get threatened constantly by bullets and falling throughout Guilty Gear and nobody cares (he straight up died from a regular revolver in one of the games). This isn’t like Frankenstein’s Monster where he had possibly 1 9-A feat so the bullets mattered there, here we have three or more feats 9-A or above and multiple statements of characters saying the armor is bullet proof. Two of the times they could have been shoot to death the characters almost constantly mention the amount of opponents that out number them rather than the weapons.

“Lore> Gameplay”

But if the 9-B stuff doesn’t downgrade them then there isn’t anything contradicting the laser rifle melting those things, especially since it should line up with the rocket feat that is scripted. The only thing contradicting it is the 9-B stuff and that’s what we are currently discussing.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Did they specifically state how the super mutants took over that place?

In five holodisks.

• 1
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• 3
• 4
• 5

They don't mention weapons, but if you count what they're armed with in-game, it ranges from spiked knuckles to varying energy/heavy weapons that Melchior stole and hid

I can see why you would say they are 9-B, but I think the newer games contradict it too much

All of their anti-feats, besides the 2.5 kj one, come from the newer games. So that doesn't hold up. The older games had stronger PA mechanic wise, with them outright no selling or being heavily resistant to the vast majority of weaponry

This isn’t like Frankenstein’s Monster where he had possibly 1 9-A feat so the bullets mattered there, he we have three or more feats 9-A or above and multiple statements of characters saying the armor is bullet proof.

We also have much more showings indicating that they aren't 8-C or better. Laser weapons can kill them, even standard ones with their limiters removed. Kinetic weapons have consistently taken them out in the background for multiple Fallout games and explosives have also outright obliterated entire suits.

Two of the times they could have been shoot to death the characters almost constantly mention the amount of opponents that out number them rather than the weapons.

Here's the thing, if they're utterly bulletproof this does not matter. Wonder Woman walking through a army is an example of this. It doesn't matter how many guns they have, where they hit her, or what they are using. She is so far beyond their damage output that they cannot overcome it. Power Armor is not so far beyond conventual infantry weapons as to be utterly immune to them. Which is why I'm harping on this so much. PA can be overwhelmed with enough gunfire, it can be destroyed by mines and rockets, and it can be pierced and damaged by energy weapons. They are not invulnerable and to rate them as such is incorrect in my view.

But if the 9-B stuff doesn’t downgrade them then there isn’t anything contradicting the laser rifle melting those things, especially since it should line up with the rocket feat that is scripted. The only thing contradicting it is the 9-B and that’s what we are currently discussing.

As I've said before, that can still make sense. Materials can handle some force better than others. Power Armor is noted as having a laser reflecting coating on top of their armor and we've changed how we handle heat/temperature durability before. PA being resistant to a laser weapon does not mean it should be completely bulletproof. When we know the are not factually and have been destroyed by standard explosives.
.

 

[Keeweed]

I know if they ‘should’ be invincible to the enemy when they are bullet proof, but fiction can have massive leaps of logic. For example Ky died to a regular pistol because “not even you can survive being shot in the back”. Same thing here, the writers think them being out numbered would allow the ncr to kill them.

If the super mutant’s weapons aren’t stated they why are we assuming the worst with spiked knuckles and bullets if they have laser rifles? Also you just said they are apparently completely resilient to guns in fallout 1 and 2, but are also using 2 to say they should be downgraded.

When it comes to the heat durability revision I’ll talk about that later. I’m not super versed in the lore of the game and I don’t know much of the recent revision to durability when it comes to heat, though I’m pretty sure the plasma weapons won’t be effected by that revision and they should scale to the laser rifle. Though once again the new revision on heat and energy is something I’m not the most knowledgeable with.

 

[Idazmi]

In five holodisks.

• 1
• 2
• 3
• 4
• 5

They don't mention weapons, but if you count what they're armed with in-game, it ranges from spiked knuckles to varying energy/heavy weapons that Melchior stole and hid

The mutants at Mariposa are specifically identified by the Vault Dweller as having weapons able to destroy Power Armor, even before Melchior was there. That's the primary reason the Brotherhood was convinced to act against them:

If they attack, it will be NOTHING like the occasional attack you get from the raiders. This will be a slaughter. Since they are coming out of that old military installation, I would imagine that they would have weapons comparable to your own.

All of their anti-feats, besides the 2.5 kj one, come from the newer games. So that doesn't hold up. The older games had stronger PA mechanic wise, with them outright no selling or being heavily resistant to the vast majority of weaponry

We also have much more showings indicating that they aren't 8-C or better. Laser weapons can kill them, even standard ones with their limiters removed. Kinetic weapons have consistently taken them out in the background for multiple Fallout games and explosives have also outright obliterated entire suits.

The 2.5 kilojoules is not an anti feat because Power Armor is not a single layer of composite. And Mariposa was the seat of the Masters Army, and a military base full of robots and energy weapons.

A standard laser with it's limiter removed is firing from a miniaturized nuclear fusion reactor known for flash vaporizing armored foes en masse when it explodes.

Here's the thing, if they're utterly bulletproof this does not matter. Wonder Woman walking through a army is an example of this. It doesn't matter how many guns they have, where they hit her, or what they are using. She is so far beyond their damage output that they cannot overcome it. Power Armor is not so far beyond conventual infantry weapons as to be utterly immune to them. Which is why I'm harping on this so much. PA can be overwhelmed with enough gunfire, it can be destroyed by mines and rockets, and it can be pierced and damaged by energy weapons. They are not invulnerable and to rate them as such is incorrect in my view.

The rating you have proposed several times...

The average .50 BMG shot packs 18 kilojoules of energy. In fact the outer layer can be reliably penetrated by 7.62 rounds which support my previous points about sustained gunfire killing them.

...would make them ridiculously easy to kill by firing a single 50 BMG, which contradicts the nature of titanium in reality (as I have shown), let alone what we see in the games, which you just admitted would make them able to "outright no sell or being heavily resistant to the vast majority of weaponry". Which they are in lore, as shown by Ingram surviving a nuke, Danse tanking an active rocket engine to the face, the Courier openly mocking a man for suggesting that the eyeslits - the weakest part of power armor - could be breached with 10mm, and the fact that the Brotherhood didn't consider the Master's Army - which are Super Mutants - any threat until they were revealed to be based at Mariposa, which had weapons able to actually hurt their armor.

The fact that you happily ignored the entirety of mini-nuke lore to downplay Ingram's feat, and your continued ignorance of the 2.5 kilojoule statement referring to the composite shell and not the entire titanium suit doesn't convince me of your objectivity.

As I've said before, that can still make sense. Materials can handle some force better than others. Power Armor is noted as having a laser reflecting coating on top of their armor and we've changed how we handle heat/temperature durability before. PA being resistant to a laser weapon does not mean it should be completely bulletproof. When we know the are not factually and have been destroyed by standard explosives.

What even is "standard" in a world where basic ammo disintegrates a bear to a pile of ashes?

 

[Qawsedf234]

Which they are in lore, as shown by Ingram surviving a nuke, Danse tanking an active rocket engine to the face, the Courier openly mocking a man for suggesting that the eyeslits -

• I have no idea how you're still confusing the Ingram thing. The mini-nuke hit a cliff beneath her that caused the thing she was standing on

composite shell and not the entire titanium suit doesn't convince me of your objectivity.

This is getting off topic and obviously nothing I say is going to change your stance regarding Power Armor. Are you for the proposed HP scaling? Yes or no.

 

[Keeweed]

I’ve been wanting to test if the unarmored Courier could survive point blank rpgs for a while now because I remember repeatedly accidentally shooting myself with a rpg in the game and surviving. My computer is broken so I won’t be able to just causally hop onto Fallout right now, but I maybe able to get a rpg on the ps3 version.

I think it depends on which tier the PA ends up, if it is 9-B then it would be an outlier for the courier, but if the PA ends up being 9-A+ or possibly 8-C depending on the results of the rocket feat and laser rifles incinerating sentry bots, then I would see the unarmored Courier being very low 9-A as consistent. I remember in Fallout 4 the Sole Survivor can also survive the cars exploding and rockets pretty consistently (though it has been a while since I’ve played).

I know you’ll probably disagree since you think even the PA should get shredded by regular bullets, but depending on how consistently the protagonist can survive 9-A explosives I think them being 9-A unarmored would be fine. Though I’ll need to test if you can survive rockets, c4s, and cars exploding throughout 3, NV, and 4. I’ll try to do that Sunday at best, Next Saturday at worst.

 

[Qawsedf234]

I remember repeatedly accidentally shooting myself with a rpg in the game and surviving.

The missile launcher does 325 to 506 HP depending onwhat perks you have and including maxed out explosives you get 487.5 to 760.2 damage on a direct hit. The Courier with the right amount of levels, HP perks, and the like would be able to survive said attack though in a critical state. The issue I had is that PA suffers notable amounts of damage from such an attack, so I feel it would be incorrect to scale it this way. Especially when using something that is pure game mechanics like HP.

I know you’ll probably disagree since you think even the PA should get shredded by regular bullets

Me saying "PA can't handle sustained amounts of gunfire" does not equal "Shred by bullets". Its can handle bullets, just not to the point where they are irrelevant to the armor's structural capacity. Or if you want an example, one small caliber bullet won't destroy a concrete block. But an entire clip or a few clips will start to cause noticeable compounding damage. If the armor's rendered bullets obsolete the Brotherhood would never lose a battle against the Legion, NCR, or Raider gangs.

but depending on how consistently the protagonist can survive 9-A explosives I think them being 9-A unarmored would be fine.

Do note that the sabot round from a M1 Abrams tank is only 9-B+. Or in other words a direct tank shot still isn't 9-A in our system. The only (explosive) weapon that would be 9-A or higher would be stuff like the Fatman.

 

[Idazmi]

• I have no idea how you're still confusing the Ingram thing. The mini-nuke hit a cliff beneath her that caused the thing she was standing on

Because you're insisting that I said the nuke hit Ingram herself, which is not what I said. Just like you are ignoring the entire lore on mininukes and using gameplay instead in order to down play the destructive power of a nuclear bomb to 9-A.

This is getting off topic and obviously nothing I say is going to change your stance regarding Power Armor. Are you for the proposed HP scaling? Yes or no.

No it's not off topic: this is the Fallout Unfucking-Up thread, and I gave a simple analysis of Power Armor's abilities in lore and supporting gameplay from the Interplay titles in the interest of Unfucking-Up Fallout.

 

[Idazmi]

Regarding HP scaling, it's worth noting that Bethesda Game Studios has a totally different approach to game design than Interplay, one that throws certain gameplay feats into question.

Interplay was making an old-school pen-and-paper RPG in computer game form, and they at least attempted to match gameplay mechanics to the lore.

By contrast, Bethesda tends to make Fallout-themed shooting galleries that essentially take the idea of "gameplay balance" to mean "all decisions are equal", and also puts little effort towards playtesting. This extends to Fallout: New Vegas, which was made in the same game engine as Fallout 3, to the point where it's essentially a Fallout 3 mod. As a result, you get the difference between this:



And this:



While it's entirely logical that a Power Armored Vault Dweller could survive bursts from a minigun, there's no logical reason to assume that the Courier could survive getting repeatedly shot by Gauss Rifles while in her underwear, while also killing Paladins in Power Armor with a shotgun. Especially not after Benny put her out of commission for days with a 9 millimeter. If we're going to be scaling based on HP, we must keep in mind that under Interplay, Fallout had some level of consistency between gameplay and lore, while Bethesda's Fallout titles have almost no lore-gameplay consistency.

Because I see it coming: with regards to lasers disintegrating things to ash and the like, some of the gameplay mechanics in Bethesda's Fallout games are explicitly shown to be fact in scripted cutscenes, (such as the video I posted of the Van Graffs disintegrating a man with a laser) and are also mentioned and/or explained in the lore. Any such elements should be acceptable as feats for obvious reasons, and lore should always be given more weight than gameplay demonstrations.

EDIT: Adding another example, the current profile on the Courier lists the Courier as having Genius intellect because - among other things - they "opened a futuristic door with a bobby pin and a screwdriver". That's because Bethesda's lockpicking minigame has always featured a simple Knob Lock, regardless of the type of lock being picked. Interplay's Fallouts have separate Electronic lockpicks for electronic doors. That's the kind of thing I'm talking about.

 

[Keeweed]

If I read the newest comments right both sides are counting the 9-A main character stuff as gameplay mechanics. I can definitely see it after reading both your post.

I won’t be able to comment for a while because I have to write a short story for a creatively project, but at least I won’t have to find a way to play fallout when my computer is super glitchy.

 

[Qawsedf234]

No it's not off topic:

Yeah you're right. Sorry for attempting to move the conversation like that.

Regarding HP scaling, it's worth noting that Bethesda Game Studios has a totally different approach to game design than Interplay, one that throws certain gameplay feats into question.

I agree that modern HP scaling should be disregarded and we use either the Fallout 4/Classic unarmed combat stuff for their tier, rather than try and scale them up to surviving a direct rocket.

As for lasers they should have the scripted feat calced, along with the rocket. Then we can at least get where they're at 9-A wise.

If I read the newest comments right both sides are counting the 9-A main character stuff as gameplay mechanics. I can definitely see it after reading both your post.

I wouldn't say they should be 9-A physically. But there's plenty of weapons that would put them at that level. They would have ratings similar to that of the Crackdown Agent. If Tactics was fully canon we could also get a rating for Gauss rifle projectiles since that game gives them a projectile speed statement.

 

[Keeweed]

Bump. Sorry for not commenting in so long. I was busy with test and final exams.

The main I’m back to this thread is because I believe the courier’s profile rework was accepted earlier. If we need to relook over it right now that would be fine. I think there is still the main profiles ap mistake on the rework (have two separated justifications for the same ap), and I’ve recently learned Damage boost is a power on this site which I think covers the perks that increase your damage.

 

[Keeweed]

I’m bumping this to see if we can finally finish the Courier’s profile rework. Also maybe we can start looking over some of the other Fallout profiles if this thread starts up again.

 

[Shmooply]

How did I not notice this thread earlier?

Anyways, what's the argument for power armor being 9-C of all things?

 

[ThisThingisReallyBroken]

because there are numerous lore statements saying people in power armor dying from regular shots

 

[Shmooply]

lemme guess most of them came from bethesda

 

[ThisThingisReallyBroken]

Look at the previous posts nerd

Irrc it was the original games stating it

 

[Qawsedf234]

Irrc it was the original games stating it

Mixture of all canon sources really. Everything from Fallout 1 to New Vegas and 4 have 9-B anti-feats for Power Armor.

 

[Shmooply]

Alright, I'll steal take whatever Impress made for Courier and then add more stuff if Kee won't be able to do it anytime soon.

Also, what should we do with his damage-related perks? Like Confirmed Bachelor and what-not.

 

[ThisThingisReallyBroken]

Also, what should we do with his damage-related perks? Like Confirmed Bachelor and what-not.

Either add it to Stat amp (since 10% more damage against men and women) and social influencing or just make it to be game mechanics

 

[Shmooply]

...why would they be game mechanics?

 

[Shmooply]

Also, is anyone interested in making Lone Wanderer's profile less of a mess? I can't be bothered to do it because I've never played any of Bethesda's Fallouts.

 

[ThisThingisReallyBroken]

...why would they be game mechanics?

Idk tbh,it seems like that due to its nature.

 

[Shmooply]

Crazier stuff has happened in Fallout. I fail to see how a mailman who survived two bullets to the head and the loss of his spine and brain being able to deal extra damage to guys 'n' gals is not possible.

 

[ThisThingisReallyBroken]

Crazier stuff has happened in Fallout. I fail to see how a mailman who survived two bullets to the head and the loss of his spine and brain being able to deal extra damage to guys 'n' gals is not possible.

It’s a pretty useless ability ngl. I don’t think it’s worth documenting

 

[Qawsedf234]

The social influencing could be noted, but the extra damage would be game mechanics or just better knowledge of anatomy leading to greater damage.

 

[Idazmi]

A few more feats in regards to Power Armor and Pre-War combat tech in general:



^ In this video, Yes Man demonstrates the full capabilities of Securitrons operating on the Mark II software upgrade. The Securitrons were developed by RobCo industries, a major developer and supplier of Pre-War energy weapons (through their subsidiary Repconn) and combat robots. Armored with a titanium alloy, the Securitron's armament includes a 9mm submachine gun, a gatling laser, a rapid-fire grenade launcher, and twin shoulder-mounted missile launchers. Much like the Van Graff energy weapons I mentioned in my first post, these gatling lasers are confirmed by people in-game to "vaporize" unarmored human beings:



^ First thing in this video, "Old Ben" warns the Courier not to go past the south gate greeter (a Securitron) without talking to it first because, as he puts it: "those bots are programmed to vaporize anyone who enters the fenced-in area without authorization from the greeter." It's notable that the gatling laser is explicitly considered a "secondary weapon" by the Securitrons' own A.I. programs.



^ Here, we see several battles featuring Mark II Securitrons fighting against an equal number of Brotherhood of Steel Paladins at close range. The Paladins are wearing the West-Tek T-51b Power Armor - which is a heavy titanium suit coated in lightweight composite - and were wielding a mix of Tri-Beam laser rifles, gatling lasers, and Gauss Rifles - the standard weapons the Paladins are seen carrying in Hidden Valley Bunker. The matches are 5 vs 5, then 1 vs 1. Depending upon terrain, positioning, and random luck, the Paladins manage to break even overall. Notably, the Securitrons don't even try to use the 9mm submachine gun against the Paladins, and the Paladins survive direct, repeated rocket and grenade fire, as well as sustained automatic laser fire in every battle.

Conclusion: any suggestion that Power Armor is in any way less than 9-A is a suggestion that I won't take seriously, not with all the other feats that have been discussed, such as Paladin Danse's Power Armor tanking a rocket engine at point-blank in a scripted event, and Proctor Ingram surviving both a near-miss from a mini-nuke and her subsequent hundred foot fall with only a spinal injury. If anything, when you include the feats from Fallout 4, an argument can be made for 8-C durability fairly easily.

 

[Duedate8898]

Quick question, why is the VATS system treated as Time Slow?

 

[Idazmi]

Quick question, why is the VATS system treated as Time Slow?

Probably because that's how it looks in gameplay.

It's worth mentioning that V.A.T.S. canonically exists in the world of Fallout, and can be hacked/modified by people with sufficient computer skills. The only explanation we have of how it actually works is this video, which officially describes it as letting you "pause for a moment" to make tactical decisions:



So we know what it does... but we have no breakdown of how it actually works. There's a comment under that video by a "Sebastian Goldstein" that reads: "My head canon is that your Pip-Boy neurally connects with your brain and heightens your reflexes so much that it looks like time has stopped. Same with the HUD, the Pip-Boy neurally connects to your brain and gets it so that can see that. Lol, I overthink stuff too much." This is pretty much my head canon too, and it's consistent with the effect of Turbo (which is a drug)... but that's only head canon. Unlike Interplay (and Obsidian, to a lesser degree), Bethesda has been infuriatingly vague as to how the technology works.