Jujutsu Kaisen Hax/Ability & AP Upgrade Thread Pt. 3

[Deagonx]

I don't want to derail on this point.

Then you shouldn't have brought it up.

None of what you quotes justifies the criteria you came up with for disqualifying my vote. None of it even addresses the subject of "when staff votes are valid." In the future I'd recommend not attempting to disqualify staff votes, or accusing people of not having read things. Thanks.

 

[SunDaGamer]

Gojo adjusting the concept of 'infinity' to bring it into tangible form within the world should also qualify for Type 2 CM. Yuki adjusting the concept of 'mass' should qualify for Type 2 CM.

Regarding this could you take the time to read what Ultima said on Type 2 CM for Infinity in a previous thread?

Spoiler

Post 1:

It seems your argument basically boils down to "Infinity is by definition simply a concept, as is the mathematical machinery involved in the use of his ability, and so him bringing them to physical space is effectively him actualizing abstract ideas by manipulating them." Yes? If I'm misrepresenting you, do correct me.

Although the logic here is isn't exactly bad, the initial premise is mistaken. To my knowledge, the "Infinity" that Gojo is referring to, here, is the infinity of Zeno's Paradoxes, which is to say the idea that space is infinitely divisible and as such motion from any Point A to another Point B is impossible. This infinity is, indeed, a physical entity, not an abstract one, because all it refers to is the continuity of space, which is an important element of classical physics (Relativity, for instance, models spacetime as continuous). Space indeed doesn't have a smallest measure as far as we are aware, and so it isn't a discrete patchwork divided in "chunks." It's continuous like the real line in mathematics is.

So Gojo "bringing Infinity into reality" in-context does seem to be just him warping space. You might argue that the above cannot be correct because Infinity not being "in" reality would seem to imply that it does not exist in correspondence to anything physical, but this logic would contradict Conceptual Manipulation, too: As you know, "Concepts," as far as that page is concerned, are realist universals, not the day-to-day definition of the term. And Type 2 in particular (Which Infinity is currently rated as) is for universals that exist attached to whatever sphere of existence they govern instead of being independent from it, thus being part of reality.

So, arguing towards keeping Conceptual Manipulation would require you to argue that "Infinity" does indeed exist in reality, which the scan itself already disproves if taken that way. So, Infinity "not being a part of reality" seems to be just talking about how it's not actually a kind of Infinity that implies infinite extension (i.e Space being infinitely divisible doesn't mean the distance between Point A and Point B is actually infinite in length), and thus not something that's practically experienced as infinite by anything.

In short: I agree with removing Conceptual Manipulation, yeah.

Post 2:

This is incorrect. In fact Gege even expressed in one of his Volume afterwards that he messed up by using the Achilles and Tortoise example and part of the issue from Jump is to reconcile some of the mistakes he made in explaining it (mind you this is the same editor who is apart of the interview in OP and who Gege states is explaining things for him in said interview).

The scan you posted doesn't say this. In fact, the editor says that, with regards to the first application of Infinity (Stopping things by actualizing infinite distance), the usage Achilles and the Tortoise is correct. What he seems to be saying is wrong, instead, is the logic used for the second application (Repelling things)

I would say this is debunked by this scan

It also mentions that limitless needs to run on irregular topology which should be supporting evidence that Gojo's space has properties that cannot be had by simply controting regular classical physics.

I'm not sure what exactly the tidbit you quoted from that scan is meant to prove.

As for the second point: Of course, but Spatial Manipulation isn't restricted solely to doing solely things restricted to what classical physics permits. There are plenty of crazier feats that can still be classified as so.

That doesn't make sense given our explanations though. For instance, when talking about his ability, he expressly discusses that his power allows him to create impossibilities such as negative 1 apples appearing in reality. For context, Gojo is explaining how he attracts things to him by creating a negative distance in space, which then must be filled by reality compensating for the blatant impossibility. Manifesting negative numbers in reality would inherently be something in the domain of the abstract, and not explained by simple spatial manipulation, as the notion of negative length, etc doesn't exist in our physical counterpart.

Gojo literally being able to make shit like "-1 apples" actually materialize is better evidence for Infinity being more abstract than milquetoast Spacehax, yeah. Although I'd classify that as Mathematics Manipulation, not Conceptual Manipulation.

So if Infinity is both omnipresent in reality and stands above it but has direct consequences over reality, I can't possibly see how you would agree with it being a nominal concept in any capacity. Could you elaborate?

To be precise: I don't think infinity here refers to a concept at all, no. "Infinity is everywhere" is just talking about how space is continuous and therefore every single bit of it is divisible into infinite parts, the catch being that those parts form an infinite series whose limit converges into a finite value, and as such they don't actually make an infinite extension. Gojo just tweaks that and makes it so they actually do.

Moreover, I don't see how the second portion of this makes much sense.

Sukuna for instance, needed to "change the technique's "target" to all of existence (the kanji here being tied to the Buddhist "universe" or all realms of existence and and time, future, past, and present, I checked with Gale) in order to hit Gojo. He specifically tells him
"Your infinity meant nothing. As long as it existed in that space -that world- it would all be torn apart" (referring to his infinity falling into the category of existence, something that Sukuna himself notes is next to impossible despite spatial manipulation already existing in verse)

Meaning Sukuna couldn't just target regular space, he had to switch the target of his technique to all of existence, which also carried with it Gojo's conceptual infinity (as Ininifty is an aspect of existence).

This harkens back to the explicit mechanics of Jujutsu where it states that cursed techniques target concepts [2] . So we know Sukuna is targeting all of existence, and yet he clearly doesn't cut all the realms of JJK
Click to expand...

Can you explain the context of the concepts scan? It's pretty vague at a glance. No clue of what it's saying.

Anyway: part here, specifically, seems to summarize as "Sukuna was stated to target existence itself and yet he didn't literally cut the entire universe and other realms, so this means he actually sliced through existence as an abstract quality and not the physical structure of things." I don't find this very convincing, seeing as the very scan explaining it prefaces "Existence itself" with "The entire world." And, for the matter, even if you include the Buddhist roots of the term into the mix, it still wouldn't suggest much of what you're saying.

(Or what I think you're saying, in any case. I might of course be completely off the mark here, so, as said, you can correct me if needed)

The lack of universe-spanning effects certainly ought to be interpreted here, given that, but I don't see what makes your claims the correct interpretation.

Another point that hammers home the nature of Infinity is Gojo's domain expansion which is called "infinite Void" (Buddhist reference) whose power is to inflict infinite information onto the opponent. I feel the ramifications of this in regards to the abilities concept thus far are also quite clear.

I don't find it very clear, myself, so, can you explain?

 

[Dereck03]

Okay, that doesn't apply to them, as what you are implying is that they just said they disagree for the sake of doing so and thus literally questioning how they give their evaluations, they disagreed with Buddhism and that's it.

And viet clarified.

Look like i need to say something

Sorry i'm on phone so it quite hard for me to response, anyway I have been observing thing since you made your first comment, you criticized many peoples for presented their disagreement despite not reading the thread, arguments. However, that isn't the case, only me is the one who said due to the ontology blog being long, it triggered my laziness and then @TheGunsFinalWrath start asking me did you read things, then we back and forth with 9 to 10 comments with @Dereck03 decide to call out to @TheGunsFinalWrath which you already know his comment. So there is two points i want to tell you that:

1. You wrongly criticized almost everyone while the one you should direct at is me because i actually skim through both the blog and this thread. @Maitreya , @Tatsumi504 and some others actually break down each points to response to @Dr._whiteee . Idk why you came to conclusion that, almost everyone here do not read the thread and just blindly disagree

2. Now before you criticize me again, i will that yes i do not read the entire thread and just skim through the ontology blog, however if you read my comments (sorry i can't link them cause i'm on phone currently and need to go back to work soon), i evaluated and gave my opinion on what i read, i did not agree or disagree on what i did not read, you can see it such as the Dimensional Manipulation i explained why it isn't case due to not fitting with the current standard, or when i agree with everyone else that scaling to Buddhism to get Causality Manipulation and Nonduality simply because the verse have elements of Buddhism, author inspired Buddhism and then the verse have some techniques that have name related to Buddhist term is a big leap in logic, i even said to @Dr._whiteee that i do not fault hom for thinking such a way, however he made a big extrapolate and no one gonna agree with

Anyway i hope this comment clear thing up

So your argument is nonsensical

 

[Dr._whiteee]

Regarding this could you take the time to read what Ultimate said on Type 2 CM for Infinity in a previous thread?

Spoiler

Post 1:


Post 2:


https://vsbattles.com/threads/we-ne...ue-satoru-gojo-cm-removal.158745/post-6052505


https://vsbattles.com/threads/we-ne...ue-satoru-gojo-cm-removal.158745/post-6052505


https://vsbattles.com/threads/we-ne...ue-satoru-gojo-cm-removal.158745/post-6052505


https://vsbattles.com/threads/we-ne...ue-satoru-gojo-cm-removal.158745/post-6052505


https://vsbattles.com/threads/we-ne...ue-satoru-gojo-cm-removal.158745/post-6052505

@DarkGrath For further context, that conversation between Ultima and I went unfinished, as you can see. He wanted me to clarify the Kenjaku concept scans stuff but never got to respond as the thread was swiftly closed before he came back.

 

[Deagonx]

but never got to respond as the thread was swiftly closed before he came back.

The thread was not closed "swiftly," it was closed three days later because it passed with a 7-0 vote in favor of it.

 

[SunDaGamer]

With this in mind - Sukuna/Mahogara adjusting the concept of 'existence' in order to harm someone who was otherwise untouchable should qualify for Type 2 CM. Gojo adjusting the concept of 'infinity' to bring it into tangible form within the world should also qualify for Type 2 CM.

Regarding this could you take the time to read what Ultima said on Type 2 CM for Infinity in a previous thread?

Spoiler

Post 1:


Post 2:

Bump

 

[Maitreya12]

Bump

I think we actually have enough staff approvals for this thread to be accepted actually since both @DarkGrath and @Dereck03 have given approvals for the proposed abilities outside of these ones here:

Yep the included abilities I find as using these types of Buddhist justifications include:

• Void Manipulation
• Non-Duality
• Causality Manipulation
• And Immortality type 9 (Dark Garth is neutral on this point however)

And conceptual manipulation is only limited to a few characters including: Gojo, Sukuna, Yuki, and Kenjaku instead of all cursed techniques having conceptual manipulation to them.

 

[SunDaGamer]

I think we actually have enough staff approvals for this thread to be accepted actually since both @DarkGrath and @Dereck03 have given approvals for the proposed abilities outside of these ones here:


And conceptual manipulation is only limited to a few characters including: Gojo, Sukuna, Yuki, and Kenjaku instead of all cursed techniques having conceptual manipulation to them.

I remember Deagon saying 3 staff approvals are required to pass a CRT involving concept manip during the Type 2 CM removal CRT

You're free to do so. I am not giving you my word, I am referencing the established site rules. Three staff votes are required to pass a thread involving Concept Manipulation

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Barriers technique being CM type 3 also should get reviewed by other staffs.

 

[Dr._whiteee]

I think we actually have enough staff approvals for this thread to be accepted actually since both @DarkGrath and @Dereck03 have given approvals for the proposed abilities outside of these ones here:


And conceptual manipulation is only limited to a few characters including: Gojo, Sukuna, Yuki, and Kenjaku instead of all cursed techniques having conceptual manipulation to them.

Grath agreed to all CT getting CM3, Void conversation is ongoing, and still more staff coming.

 

[Maitreya12]

I remember Deagon saying 3 staff approvals are required to pass a CRT involving concept manip during the Type 2 CM removal CRT

Barriers technique being CM type 3 also should get reviewed by other staffs.

Ok gotcha.

Moreover, which mods have agreed with this thread?

Agree with this.

If either of you have the time for it could we please have your opinions about the conceptual manipulation proposal for the thread? That’s the last point that needs to be given one more opinion by staff before this thread can be officially closed.

This is @Dereck03 post on the matter clarifying they agree with certain character’s CT getting conceptual manipulation.

And this is @DarkGrath post on the matter clarifying they agree with all CT’s getting conceptual manipulation type 3.

Grath agreed to all CT getting CM3, Void conversation is ongoing, and still more staff coming.

gotcha on Garth’s opinion on CT’s getting CM however the conversation regarding abilities on VM and other such abilities I outlined were rejected by staff including @Maverick_Zero_X @Dereck03 @Deagonx and @DarkGrath It’s been reviewed by several staff and rejected.

Please, let’s just let this CRT be done with, there’s so many freaking JJK threads open right now it’s insane.

 

[Dr._whiteee]

Ok gotcha.



If either of you have the time for it could we please have your opinions about the conceptual manipulation proposal for the thread? That’s the last point that needs to be given one more opinion by staff before this thread can be officially closed.

This is @Dereck03 post on the matter clarifying they agree with certain character’s CT getting conceptual manipulation.

And this is @DarkGrath post on the matter clarifying they agree with all CT’s getting conceptual manipulation type 3.

gotcha on Garth’s opinion on CT’s getting CM however the conversation regarding abilities on VM and other such abilities I outlined were rejected by staff including @Maverick_Zero_X @Dereck03 @Deagonx and @DarkGrath It’s been reviewed by several staff and rejected.

Please, let’s just let this CRT be done with, there’s so many freaking JJK threads open right now it’s insane.

No can do partner. Still waiting on staff to clarify/more staff to clarify some things here. There is no rush with a revision this big.

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

Isnt better to apply what was accepted for now and try the stuff that is controversial later on since hardly any staff is gonna pay attention to a 3 page long thread with a ton of wall of texts?

 

[Dr._whiteee]

Isnt better to apply what was accepted for now and try the stuff that is controversial later on since hardly any staff is gonna pay attention to a 3 page long thread with a ton of wall of texts?

Grath asked for clarification that I provided. That’s been the only mod outside of Dereck to interact and I still have more staff checking things out.

I’m willing to drop the Tengen stuff for now as it’s mostly inconsequential as Tengen doesn’t scale either way, but not Void Manip.

 

[Maitreya12]

Grath asked for clarification that I provided. That’s been the only mod outside of Dereck to interact and I still have more staff checking things out.

I’m willing to drop the Tengen stuff for now as it’s mostly inconsequential as Tengen doesn’t scale either way, but not Void Manip.

That still makes 3 other staff that have official disagreements with void manipulation and other such related abilities, and it’s not just Tengen stuff that needs to be dropped as even Garth disagreed with things like causality manipulation. So those abilities still need to be dropped because there is staff rejection for them.

 

[Dr._whiteee]

That still makes 3 other staff that have official disagreements with void manipulation and other such related abilities, and it’s not just Tengen stuff that needs to be dropped as even Garth disagreed with things like causality manipulation. So those abilities still need to be dropped because there is staff rejection for them.

Not quite, going by staff votes, they explicitly disagree with the entire thread for reasons I went over earlier. So if we are counting their votes, then the thread is currently 3 staff voting for the thread to not stand, Dereck backing your points? (he also backed Tatsu's and Tatsu gave ground on void manip, so no clue where he stands on that) and Grath's stances being pretty well known by now. Also, Grath didn't reject Causality manip. Me and Grath are still in conversation and she asked me to elaborate, so that isn't currently a vote against void manip, or causality manip yet, unless she rejects my response.

I understand you may be frustrated but there is no reason to rush this currently.

 

[Maitreya12]

Not quite, going by staff votes, they explicitly disagree with the entire thread for reasons I went over earlier. So if we are counting their votes, then the thread is currently 3 staff voting for the thread to not stand

, Dereck backing your points? (he also backed Tatsu's and Tatsu gave ground on void manip, so no clue where he stands on that)

Okay, we don't have to clarify anything, abilities like ND, Causality, Void Manip that rely on IRL use of Buddhism related terms we agreed with Maitreya not to accept, you can't try to invalidate our vote for your own reasons. And yes, Maverick and Dale agreed with Maitreya regarding such abilities and Deagonx clarified that he did not agree with using Buddhism.

Dereck gave explicit confirmation on where their stance is regarding Buddhist related abilities mentioned above. Along with which staff members gave explicit agreement towards my position against abilities based off of Buddhism, so no actually you do not have 3 staff members giving disagreements for the entire thread, at all in fact.

Also, Grath didn't reject Causality manip. Me and Grath are still in conversation and she asked me to elaborate, so that isn't currently a vote against void manip, or causality manip yet, unless she rejects my response.

At present, I can't pass this

Of all the things you have pointed to, what you haven't pointed to is any instance of the Dharma Wheel manipulating causality - rather, you've inferred it from a long list of things that can very well exist without the Dharma Wheel possessing such a characteristic. Until you can point to a direct feat or showing of this, or a truly deductive inference, this would be inappropriate to index.

This seems like an explicit disagreement regarding casualty manipulation to me.

I understand you may be frustrated but there is no reason to rush this currently.

This thread has been talked extensively about and has been given input from several staff members, enough to reach a conclusion barring 1 ability. The only frustrating part about it are the dismissals of those other staff opinions.

 

[GrathOfLux]

I apologise for my delayed reply to this thread. I am aware I have been asked for input on a few matters, so I intend to expand on this now.

So that section was to outline the point that void (labeled chaos here) is fundamental to existence. Here is the full scan where we see Kenjaku states "sorcerers (those who can use CE), non-sorcerors, and cursed spirits, all represent possibilities" which in the next scan (the one you reference) we are given the visual motif of light flickering on a black background. When Kenjaku states he tried to "bring this forth" himself he is referencing his mixing between curses and humans which is why Choso is highlighted in that panel. So this would extend to ontology of the basis of life forms would have to due with the nature of reality (and we know this extends to animals as well). This motif is something Gege does consistently when the manga addresses deeper ontological aspects.

For instance, making a distortion in space time [2] reveals this same canvas of emptiness

While regular humans would just see Sukuna hanging around, Gojo is able to see past the material world and spot the exact same canvas which houses Sukuna's and Megumi's soul to see how Sukuna was adapting to his domain. We see this previously when Yuji entered Mahito's domain and forced their souls to interact, we see the same exact void pictured to visually depict this. Mahito also being the one to expressly claim that Buddhist scriptures were textbooks to controlling the soul based on his readings of the Heart Sutra ( a sutra which touches upon Sunyata) and mentions the monk can "feels souls in the dark".

Notably, when Mahito is on the verge of death we also see this background, and then immediately afterward, Mahito expands his domain and we see this same canvas hit Yuji and exclude him from the domain.

Gojo separately also discussed seeing "the core of cursed energy" during his near death which gave him enlightenment and immediate insight into how jujutsu works that he didn't have prior to getting shanked.

Finally, we see this blank Canvas again when Sukuna discusses how he bypassed Gojo's infinity, with our starry empty canvas once showing up explicitly as Sukuna mentioned targeting "existence".

I believe that should establish Sunyata being fundamental to the verse. Now as to how that relates to barriers and these upgrades?

Tengen (a verse god tier who laid the foundations for Jujutsu while also preaching Buddhism side by side) discusses with Yuki that she controls "Sunyata barriers" all across her land. She discusses that "any person familiar with barrier jutsu" would be able to configure it's structure to some extent, with particularly proficient sorcerers being able to straight up reality warp. The first clause would indicate that all barrier users can inherently interact with emptiness, hence why they'd be able to do so in the Sunyata barrier (just more freely as shown by Kenjaku) despite never being there before. The second clause highlights the extent by which this emptiness can be formed with Kenjaku's reality warping and constructing reality (see circular definition) in there based on logical concepts.

The translator note on the page also directly highlights to use that the Sunyata concept comes from Buddhism and does indeed represent the foundational emptiness of reality.

To ensure I understand what you're proposing correctly:

This recurring visual motif of 'flickering white lights against a black background' is meant to be a visual representation of 'Sunyata', or the idea that 'form is emptiness, emptiness is form'. As explained by Kenjaku, the nature that people with 'form' have with reality is that of having 'possibilities', or the potential to change, in contrast to 'emptiness', or the lack of possibility. Sorcerers demonstrate the ability to interact with 'Sunyata barriers', or the dividing point between form and emptiness, and to therefore warp the divide between form and emptiness. The necessary implication within Sunyata barriers that they can interact with emptiness is being proposed as a form of Void Manipulation. Is this all correct?

If so, I suppose I don't have an issue with that. My pedantry may extend to asking how we know for certain that this 'emptiness' within the verse is really 'void' as we speak of it on the wiki, and not just an analogous concept. However, I'd be remiss to claim that I don't see what the authors were trying to convey here. Sorcerers possessing the ability to warp the divide between emptiness and form should qualify for void manipulation.

Yeah, Choso is meeting with Kenjaku to fight and initially, we only see the Sunyata barrier with white background and the tree in the background repeating. Kenjaki stops before the fight to reflect back on events that happened in the past and his projections for the future. [1] [2] [3] [4] [5] [6]

This is what Tengen was referring to in this scan when discussing Sunyata/barriers.

That should be fine, then.

Indeed, the scan posted was discussing how it was seemingly impossible to condense Domains being superimposed over reality for hundreds of meters, into the space the size of a basketball. Kusakabe muses this is typically impossible due to conceptualization issues, but that Gojo's time in the prison realm allowed him the experience of such and thus the foundation for his "image".

Tengen also states their ability to keep their consciousness (personal concept) from merging with the universe is due to barrier jutsu.

That works, then.

That scan is in reference to curses abilities to interact with the fundamental aspect of reality. That scan is Kenjaku entering a realm implied to be "the cursed realm" which exist between the spiritual and physical. This is why Kenjaku is able to enter through dreams and physically escort people from their abstract state into a separate place in physical reality from whence they dreamt (scans can be found in the dimensional travel section). This also has to do with the Sunyata stuff I went over earlier.

I'm not sure I completely follow. They entered into the 'cursed realm' between the spiritual and the physical worlds, yes, and the 'cursed realm' is constructed of 'cursed energy'. But do we know that the cursed realm is constructed of 'nothingness' or 'non-existence' as we would commonly denote it on the wiki? If not, then I don't see where Void Manipulation for cursed energy is coming from. There's a gap in the explanation here.

Sorry this one is a pretty well known thing in the JJK verse, but when Sorcerors die, they risk coming back to life as a cursed spirits. This has happened to several famous historical figures, and the 3 houses are founded upon each of those figures coming back to life as a curse.

Naoya, used to be a sorcerer. He was killed by Maki's mom after getting beat by Maki, who used a kitchen knife with no cursed energy. Thus Naoya's hate festered and brought him back to life as a curse, until he metamorphized into his final form (this scan doesn't have a translation it's just showing his final form).

It's not an active thing which is why I just wanted listed as an ability of CE. But apparently this was already added.

That should be fine, then.

I actually wanted help deciding this.

The nonduality described - of existing 'between the physical and the mental' - just sounds like specific nonduality to me. To quote the nonduality page:

"Specific Nonduality: Characters existing in a nondual state regarding one or more specific dual systems. This type of nonduality immunizes the user against attacks and haxes bound by the specific dual systems in question."

Kairi is just a young girl with a sixth sense, she has will power stated over the average human. Mai also resists the same thing Kairi resists, so it seems to be a willpower thing.

Very well.

Thanks for the breakdown! All the stuff you mentioned is quite important context! But there is indeed more to this via feats as well. To briefly go over the context you mentioned, it is extremely important. Since jujutsu is conceptial in nature, it's form (manifested by abstract thought) would indeed by related to it's function. To prove this notion we have Sukuna. Sukuna and Gojo separately point out that the form of the wheel symbolizing "a perfect cycle and harmony" which is indeed a callout to the Dharma wheel in Buddhism representing the conditioned and casual nature of reality (not ultimate reality, important note). Sukuna/Gojo use this as the basis (along with his experience fighting Mahoraga) to deduce what Mahoraga's ability means. Meaning we have two qualified sorcerers actively telling us the form indeed has to do with it's powers.

Looking at the mechanisms behind the wheel we also see that the "adaptation" is granted after receiving the effect from a cause. Sukuna an Gojo discuss this when breaking down how Sukuna is adapting to Gojo's domain. gojo surmises that Megumi took the "process of adaption" (causal agent being adapted) but the "result of adaptation" was instead rerouted to Mahoraga/Sukuna. Looking at the definition of "cause and effect" we can see that mechanically the wheel is interfacing with this aspect of the phenomena it's interacting with.


To bolster this, we also have the direct mechanism by which the Dharma wheel grants adaptation after encoding information, and this is done via "turning of the wheel" which also has great buddhist significance



Finally, we see the wheel itself has properties not shared by Mahoraga. Mahoraga was damaged by Sukuna's domain (despite being quite tanky) and ultimately defeated by Sukuna's large scale explosion. In both instances, the wheel was completely fine, even though it did not adapt to the fire attack from Sukuna, the same attack vaporizing Mahoraga into nothing.

We only ever see the wheel be destroyed by Hollow Purple, which has exotic characteristics that don't rely on OP via utilizing imaginary mass. Pointing out that even some of the strongest attacks in the verse cannot interact with the wheel (damage it) even if the wheel hadn't been exposed to said pheonema.

That attack was the "blueprint" Sukuna spoke of when discussing how he learned how to target the concept of existence to hit Gojo, Mahoraga is doing the same thing to bypass infinity here.

I'm not certain I fully understand you here. To clarify:

What you're claiming this scan demonstrates is that the Dharma Wheel's 'adaptation' power, the one that allows it to adapt to any phenomena it encounters, can work by either changing the 'process of adaptation' or the 'resulting adaptation'. You're arguing that this phrasing is an analogue to the idea that it adapts through interacting with the cause-effect relationship of a phenomenon (i.e.: it adapts to a phenomenon by either changing the source of a phenomenon, or by changing the effect of it). Is this what you're proposing?

That attack was the "blueprint" Sukuna spoke of when discussing how he learned how to target the concept of existence to hit Gojo, Mahoraga is doing the same thing to bypass infinity here.

That should be fine, then.

JJK is already accepted as having Info type 2 as the basis of the spiritual and material split for the verse. Mahoraga isn't utilizing type 1 information as the means for bypassing causality, hence why he actually has to be struck by the essence of said thing he is adapting too. So the information in that context would be type 2 as Mahoraga isn't learning info and then using a separate power. He's downloading the fundamental information and using that as the basis for his adaptation. Which is why Sukuna states the first way Mahoraga beat Infinity was impossible and the second was "nearly impossible".

I suppose that's fine.

Yeah, basically Ogami summoned Toji's material information while leaving out his soul. Toji's body information, despite being physical, overrode the soul information of her grandson, and later also overrode the technique itself, as Toji was supposed to kill the strongest person around until he collapsed, but upon fighting his son was able to just kill himself instead of carrying out the order.

That's fine, then.

Tengen is a buddha, who spread japanese buddhism, and become one with everything.
This Raw



Clearly within the context, becoming one with the Earth would not make much sense. The concept of Nirvana also entails one's ego dissolving into the world, which is what expressly happened to Tengen. She is only around by using barriers jutsu to keep her consciousness and individuality solidified and by incarnating into a star vessel every so often. Nothing about this context points to Tengen becoming one with Earth, that would make no sense based on the scope of ontology touched upon thus far.

The whole "existing and not existing" is a call back to the Heart Sutra's main theme where "Form is emptiness and emptiness form" which was also touched on by the random non sorcerer human who could see things by not seeing them.

How does this prove that Tengen is on a separate plane of existence from the plane in which she can be killed? If anything, it seems to prove the opposite - that she is expressly one with the plane in which her avatar manifests. That would indicate she does not qualify for Type 9 Immortality.

Regarding this could you take the time to read what Ultima said on Type 2 CM for Infinity in a previous thread?

Reading the posts you've linked from the debate between Dr. Whiteee and Ultima, it sounds to me like the 'Infinity' listed should qualify for Type 2 CM. The scans provided indicate that the technique is all about converting things from the realm of the 'abstract' into the 'tangible' - for example, bringing the abstract mathematical notion of '-1 apples' into tangible form as -1 apples. It's suggested that this technique is the cornerstone behind Gojo 'bringing infinity into reality'. This sounds to me like it's explicitly interacting with the abstract concept underpinning infinity, and thereby converting it into a tangible form, rather than just manipulating space to stretch finite distance into infinite divisibility as Ultima suggests. Were it just spatial manipulation, then spatial impossibilities like -1 apples shouldn't fall under the mechanism.

Also need some input here regarding CM type 3 for Barrier Technique. From what I understand SR already covers for whatever OP is suggesting but not sure if this also grants CM type 3. So need some input.

@DarkGrath reply to this

What precisely is the concern here?

To clarify what I've said before regarding Type 3 CM, since that seems to be part of the question - I believe the symbolic 'concrete image' described in the OP would qualify for Type 3 CM, and it's been established that this is a mechanism behind barriers. So barrier users should qualify for Type 3 CM.

 

[Dr._whiteee]

To ensure I understand what you're proposing correctly:

This recurring visual motif of 'flickering white lights against a black background' is meant to be a visual representation of 'Sunyata', or the idea that 'form is emptiness, emptiness is form'. As explained by Kenjaku, the nature that people with 'form' have with reality is that of having 'possibilities', or the potential to change, in contrast to 'emptiness', or the lack of possibility. Sorcerers demonstrate the ability to interact with 'Sunyata barriers', or the dividing point between form and emptiness, and to therefore warp the divide between form and emptiness. The necessary implication within Sunyata barriers that they can interact with emptiness is being proposed as a form of Void Manipulation. Is this all correct?

If so, I suppose I don't have an issue with that. My pedantry may extend to asking how we know for certain that this 'emptiness' within the verse is really 'void' as we speak of it on the wiki, and not just an analogous concept. However, I'd be remiss to claim that I don't see what the authors were trying to convey here. Sorcerers possessing the ability to warp the divide between emptiness and form should qualify for void manipulation.

Indeed, you have summed up my stance accurately.

I'm not sure I completely follow. They entered into the 'cursed realm' between the spiritual and the physical worlds, yes, and the 'cursed realm' is constructed of 'cursed energy'. But do we know that the cursed realm is constructed of 'nothingness' or 'non-existence' as we would commonly denote it on the wiki? If not, then I don't see where Void Manipulation for cursed energy is coming from. There's a gap in the explanation here.

I don't think the implication is that the realm is constructed from CE, rather that the very nature of "curses" (a catch all term for the abstract stuff underpinning the manga) is "between "Mind and Matter", very similar to say the Velvet Room from Persona. We never are told what realm it is, we only know that Kenjaku can interface with reality and the dream worlds of individuals and also transport them to and fro the realm.

That should be fine, then.


The nonduality described - of existing 'between the physical and the mental' - just sounds like specific nonduality to me. To quote the nonduality page:

"Specific Nonduality: Characters existing in a nondual state regarding one or more specific dual systems. This type of nonduality immunizes the user against attacks and haxes bound by the specific dual systems in question."

That looks like it checks out.

I'm not certain I fully understand you here. To clarify:

What you're claiming this scan demonstrates is that the Dharma Wheel's 'adaptation' power, the one that allows it to adapt to any phenomena it encounters, can work by either changing the 'process of adaptation' or the 'resulting adaptation'. You're arguing that this phrasing is an analogue to the idea that it adapts through interacting with the cause-effect relationship of a phenomenon (i.e.: it adapts to a phenomenon by either changing the source of a phenomenon, or by changing the effect of it). Is this what you're proposing?

Basically, the wheel grants the user adaptation once the user/wheel have taken in enough information. The taking of the hit essentially codifies the causal agent but this "process" can be rerouted so long as someone under the wheels jurisdiction is receiving the effect. Megumi took the hit, but Sukuna and Mahoraga received the adaptation to UV instead.

So pretty much like having a proxy receive a nasty effect from some cause (say a cut from a sword), the wheel downloads the situation as your proxy deals with the damage. Then the wheel bestows "the adaption" or resistance or immunity to effects from the source of the cause, which happens after the wheel turns. This is both offensive and defensive in nature, as it lead to Mahoraga cutting existence on the fly.

How does this prove that Tengen is on a separate plane of existence from the plane in which she can be killed? If anything, it seems to prove the opposite - that she is expressly one with the plane in which her avatar manifests. That would indicate she does not qualify for Type 9 Immortality.

I have decided I will drop this point in order to expedite this thread's conclusion.

 

[TheGunsFinalWrath]

what's left there in this thread. any contentions not addressed yet or nah?

 

[GrathOfLux]

It may be for the best that the relatively uncontroversial changes are passed and the rest are left for a future thread. It's clear that the discussion has gravitated towards a few particular controversial points, such as the Causality Manipulation proposal, and that the other proposals have been largely affirmed. Perhaps, rather than continuing to discuss the controversial points, a compilation of the changes that have been accepted by multiple evaluating staff can be listed and those changes can be made, so this thread can be closed?

 

[Dr._whiteee]

It may be for the best that the relatively uncontroversial changes are passed and the rest are left for a future thread. It's clear that the discussion has gravitated towards a few particular controversial points, such as the Causality Manipulation proposal, and that the other proposals have been largely affirmed. Perhaps, rather than continuing to discuss the controversial points, a compilation of the changes that have been accepted by multiple evaluating staff can be listed and those changes can be made, so this thread can be closed?

I think the only point left for discussion is the void manip. I feel like my post in our discussion better represented the collective evidence for it existing in JJK and not being loaned from Buddhism. Do you think you can tag the staff who voted to look over that bit?

I'm okay with dropping the other controversial topics and saving them for the future.

 

[TheGunsFinalWrath]

It may be for the best that the relatively uncontroversial changes are passed and the rest are left for a future thread. It's clear that the discussion has gravitated towards a few particular controversial points, such as the Causality Manipulation proposal, and that the other proposals have been largely affirmed. Perhaps, rather than continuing to discuss the controversial points, a compilation of the changes that have been accepted by multiple evaluating staff can be listed and those changes can be made, so this thread can be closed?

this sounds valid to me. the controversial stuff can be further discussed in another thread for the future.

 

[GrathOfLux]

I think the only point left for discussion is the void manip. I feel like my post in our discussion better represented the collective evidence for it existing in JJK and not being loaned from Buddhism. Do you think you can tag the staff who voted to look over that bit?

I'm okay with dropping the other controversial topics and saving them for the future.

To be clear, who are you looking for input from? I can think of Deagonx, Dereck, Maverick, and Dalesean off the top of my head.

 

[Dr._whiteee]

To be clear, who are you looking for input from? I can think of Deagonx, Dereck, Maverick, and Dalesean off the top of my head.

Yes, I believe the listed users comprise the rest of the staff who looked this thread over.

 

[GrathOfLux]

So that section was to outline the point that void (labeled chaos here) is fundamental to existence. Here is the full scan where we see Kenjaku states "sorcerers (those who can use CE), non-sorcerors, and cursed spirits, all represent possibilities" which in the next scan (the one you reference) we are given the visual motif of light flickering on a black background. When Kenjaku states he tried to "bring this forth" himself he is referencing his mixing between curses and humans which is why Choso is highlighted in that panel. So this would extend to ontology of the basis of life forms would have to due with the nature of reality (and we know this extends to animals as well). This motif is something Gege does consistently when the manga addresses deeper ontological aspects.

For instance, making a distortion in space time [2] reveals this same canvas of emptiness

While regular humans would just see Sukuna hanging around, Gojo is able to see past the material world and spot the exact same canvas which houses Sukuna's and Megumi's soul to see how Sukuna was adapting to his domain. We see this previously when Yuji entered Mahito's domain and forced their souls to interact, we see the same exact void pictured to visually depict this. Mahito also being the one to expressly claim that Buddhist scriptures were textbooks to controlling the soul based on his readings of the Heart Sutra ( a sutra which touches upon Sunyata) and mentions the monk can "feels souls in the dark".

Notably, when Mahito is on the verge of death we also see this background, and then immediately afterward, Mahito expands his domain and we see this same canvas hit Yuji and exclude him from the domain.

Gojo separately also discussed seeing "the core of cursed energy" during his near death which gave him enlightenment and immediate insight into how jujutsu works that he didn't have prior to getting shanked.

Finally, we see this blank Canvas again when Sukuna discusses how he bypassed Gojo's infinity, with our starry empty canvas once showing up explicitly as Sukuna mentioned targeting "existence".

I believe that should establish Sunyata being fundamental to the verse. Now as to how that relates to barriers and these upgrades?

Tengen (a verse god tier who laid the foundations for Jujutsu while also preaching Buddhism side by side) discusses with Yuki that she controls "Sunyata barriers" all across her land. She discusses that "any person familiar with barrier jutsu" would be able to configure it's structure to some extent, with particularly proficient sorcerers being able to straight up reality warp. The first clause would indicate that all barrier users can inherently interact with emptiness, hence why they'd be able to do so in the Sunyata barrier (just more freely as shown by Kenjaku) despite never being there before. The second clause highlights the extent by which this emptiness can be formed with Kenjaku's reality warping and constructing reality (see circular definition) in there based on logical concepts.

The translator note on the page also directly highlights to use that the Sunyata concept comes from Buddhism and does indeed represent the foundational emptiness of reality.

@Deagonx @Dereck03 @Maverick_Zero_X @Dalesean027 Could you take a look at the case regarding Void Manipulation? Thank you.

 

[Maitreya12]

@Deagonx @Dereck03 @Maverick_Zero_X @Dalesean027 Could you take a look at the case regarding Void Manipulation? Thank you.

For relevant comments to those staff members about the proposal:

This is @Dr._whiteee response detailing their evidence and stance regarding the Void Manipulation proposal.

And this is my own response detailing some of the issues I had with the evidence presented not necessarily coming to the conclusion of Void Manipulation.

 

[Dalesean027]

@Deagonx @Dereck03 @Maverick_Zero_X @Dalesean027 Could you take a look at the case regarding Void Manipulation? Thank you.

I can take a look when im off work and at home

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

To clarify what I've said before regarding Type 3 CM, since that seems to be part of the question - I believe the symbolic 'concrete image' described in the OP would qualify for Type 3 CM, and it's been established that this is a mechanism behind barriers. So barrier users should qualify for Type 3 CM.

OK thanks for clarifying. Then I don't have any problem with Barriers getting CM type 3. I just hope it's not get misused on verses matches.

Also this needs to some input because it's major thing.

This is @Dereck03 post on the matter clarifying they agree with certain character’s CT getting conceptual manipulation.

And this is @DarkGrath post on the matter clarifying they agree with all CT’s getting conceptual manipulation type 3.

I'm not asking for any new staffs to give their input. Just @Deagonx and @Maverick_Zero_X should clarify are they OK with giving all CT CM type 3 or only applies to case by case.

Dereck agreed with Case by Case
You agreed with All CT.
So it's better to clarify with them so that we can move on with this thread.

 

[LordGinSama]

So what's the progress here? Tbh this should be concluded already given that it's at 8 pages at this point.

 

[Dr._whiteee]

So what's the progress here? Tbh this should be concluded already given that it's at 8 pages at this point.

Awaiting a final verdict for void manipulation as substantial context was added from the blog that wasn't present in OP.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

@Deagonx @Dereck03 @Maverick_Zero_X @Dalesean027 Could you take a look at the case regarding Void Manipulation? Thank you.

Some of those descriptions around a bit vague, but I think the statements may be already to consider void manipulation.

 

[Dr._whiteee]

Some of those descriptions around a bit vague, but I think the statements may be already to consider void manipulation.

Thank you for the evaluation, I know it was lengthy, but I am also available to clarify anything if needed.

 

[Spectra_Schiffer]

it looks good

 

[Dr._whiteee]

Non-Duality, Causality Manip, and Immortality type 9 were removed from the OP.

 

[Dr._whiteee]

With the removal of the controversial additions and additional staff support for Void Manipulation, are we okay to close this at this point?

 

[Maitreya12]

I believe so? Since there have been multiple staff given their approval for the rest of the proposed abilities.

Edit: but don’t quote me on that, I’m not staff.

 

[GrathOfLux]

I am concerned that several staff members who disagreed with Void Manipulation have not given a follow-up response. I would've preferred to conclude this thread after hearing their input.

However, they have been pinged, and given ample time to respond. And there has been enough agreement to comfortably pass the change. Considering how long the thread has already taken, I would rather this was passed and for any possible further contentions to be handled in a future thread.

on a side note: if you need any proof to the arbitrariness of evaluation rights, consider that my past input on this matter could technically now be considered retroactively more valuable by me affirming it in the present

 

[Dereck03]

And this is my own response detailing some of the issues I had with the evidence presented not necessarily coming to the conclusion of Void Manipulation.

Okay, I want to say that I still find Void Manipulation too iffy based on and I still agree with Maitreya's points.

Yep the included abilities I find as using these types of Buddhist justifications include:

• Void Manipulation
• Non-Duality
• Causality Manipulation
• And Immortality type 9 (Dark Garth is neutral on this point however)

There is also current discussion going on regards to conceptual manipulation and personally o disagree with power nullification for Tengen for reasons outside of Buddhism related stuff.

And staffs like Deagon, Maverick, Dale (No evaluation rights) disagreed with the use of Buddhism and therefore did not agree with these abilities directly linked to Buddhism, although now that the OP has removed, Causality, Immo 9, ND there seems to be no problem (although it remains void manip that was only accepted by Dark and Medeus and rejected by me and the rest of the staff I mentioned in the first extract of the message.

It is also necessary to emphasize that only Dark and I gave opinions about the rest of the abilities but we differed on the following one.

This is @Dereck03 post on the matter clarifying they agree with certain character’s CT getting conceptual manipulation.

And this is @DarkGrath post on the matter clarifying they agree with all CT’s getting conceptual manipulation type 3.

Although it is said that CTs can target the "concept" it is necessary to elaborate directly on the use or what the CTs itself does, since we will not give Cm to a technique that only Teleports or Manipulates water without a clear emphasis that it has to do directly with a complex manipulation of some concept, not just a vague mention, this would fall in the Non-Qualifying Concepts.

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, only certain CTs have been proven to have a great involvement in the conceptual field and therefore have been accepted, it would be the same to assume that Todo's Boogie Woogie is a conceptual technique when no implication was ever given that it had that nature, with the exception of Gojo, Sukuna, Mahogara, etc.

And the vast majority of CTs here do not have any kind of information or use related to the conceptual nature.

 

[Dr._whiteee]

Okay, I want to say that I still find Void Manipulation too iffy based on and I still agree with Maitreya's points.

Could you explain which points in particular are a bother? I feel that the black canvas appearing during scenes involving ontology, Mahito referencing this canvas when talking about Buddhism and how the scriptures were textbooks for controlling the souls and "feeling souls in the dark", Mahito's barrier showing this same canvas, and the Tengen example confirming that barrier users can interact with Sunyata, is all pretty tangible stuff from the JJK universe proper. The tengen scana also explicitly gives us an explanation as to what Sunyata means for context and it's exactly what Void would be for the manipulation feats.

And staffs like Deagon, Maverick, Dale (No evaluation rights) disagreed with the use of Buddhism and therefore did not agree with these abilities directly linked to Buddhism, although now that the OP has removed, Causality, Immo 9, ND there seems to be no problem (although it remains void manip that was only accepted by Dark and Medeus and rejected by me and the rest of the staff I mentioned in the first extract of the message.

It is also necessary to emphasize that only Dark and I gave opinions about the rest of the abilities but we differed on the following one.

Yes so from my understanding, Void manip (and I guess concept manip?) is the only contentious topic here. With 2 admin agrees for it I'm not exactly how sure that works with 1 admin and 2 mods on the opposing side. Likewise, Concept manip has been agreed upon by a majority of regular users and currently is 1 mod vote against and one admin vote against, hence why I agree with Grath's position of allowing further contention for that point to be addressed in a future thread.

Although it is said that CTs can target the "concept" it is necessary to elaborate directly on the use or what the CTs itself does, since we will not give Cm to a technique that only Teleports or Manipulates water without a clear emphasis that it has to do directly with a complex manipulation of some concept, not just a vague mention, this would fall in the Non-Qualifying Concepts.

This is incorrect. If the mechanism for which the supernatural effect occurs is abstract/conceptual in nature, it would still qualify for type 3 as outlined in this thread.

Non-qualifying concepts would be type 3 concepts that don't actually govern objects of concepts from the subjective viewpoint of the user. This is also why this clause was added to concept type 3 manip

Conceptual manipulation of this type can be resisted by those who resist sufficiently similar abilities, even if the exact mechanics may differ.

CT obviously governs reality for CT users.

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence,

This isn't an extraordinary claim as we are being told be an expert in jujutsu how CT functions. Concept manip isn't a special category that requires extra consideration when it's coming straight from the source.

only certain CTs have been proven to have a great involvement in the conceptual field and therefore have been accepted, it would be the same to assume that Todo's Boogie Woogie is a conceptual technique when no implication was ever given that it had that nature, with the exception of Gojo, Sukuna, Mahogara, etc.

For type 2? Yeah. Not for type 3. Boogie woogie being a teleportation technique wouldn't exclude it's mechanism for affecting reality being conceptual and same thing for your water control example. That's not exclusionary criteria.

And the vast majority of CTs here do not have any kind of information or use related to the conceptual nature.

The reality of JJK is fundamentally mental in nature with it currently being accepted for type 2 info as the basis of the soul/material split. In addition to the other evidence in this thread outlining jujutsu's conceptual nature, Kenjaku's line is enough to inform us of the mechanics of jujutsu and qualify for type 3.