Equal Stats Tournament 2022: Messenger Nia vs Super Monkey

[BluudyManikin777]

And if they were equalized and put at no value, then some of the conversation is nothing. We literally talked about how the forcefields can't be broken down by sheer AP. So what value do we put them at? We're not going to just put them at random values

 

[BluudyManikin777]

Just tell me, what values should they be put at?

 

[FRIMI]

but my point is that you literally just said that the forcefields can be overwhelmed by sufficient energy output and then asked me the energy output of the attacks, only to immediately say "um actually its equalized so that's not the energy output" after I give you the number. What you're basically saying is that in this tourney your forcefields are literally impossible to break

 

[FRIMI]

like for example, iirc a character that can dodge bullets is still generally assumed to be able to dodge bullets even when they're fighting an opponent who can't with SBA

 

[BluudyManikin777]

like for example, iirc a character that can dodge bullets is still generally assumed to be able to dodge bullets even when they're fighting an opponent who can't with SBA

What SBA effect does that?

 

[FRIMI]

SBA including speed equalization is what I meant to say

 

[BluudyManikin777]

SBA including speed equalization

SBA doesn't have speed equalization; that's an optional thing. The rule of speed equalization is that the faster character's speed is equalized to match the slower character, i.e. the faster character gets slower. I was assuming it would work something like that with AP, since Speed Equalization's way of equalizing is essentially to downplay the faster character

 

[FRIMI]

ok but like when a bullet dodging character is speed equalized with a gun wielding non-bullet dodging character, is it not still assumed that the "faster" one can dodge bullets still?

 

[FRIMI]

but more on topic, are you trying to say that the energy calc I gave you (that you asked for) isn't valid because against your forcefield because it's equalized AP? If that's the case then by your logic there's literally no character in all of fiction that can overload the forcefield, the primary method of getting past it

 

[BluudyManikin777]

is it not still assumed that the "faster" one can dodge bullets still?

No, because they're now at a speed where that's physically impossible for them to accomplish

 

[FRIMI]

No, because they're now at a speed where that's physically impossible for them to accomplish

maybe I'm misremembering, but I thought that they still could

 

[BluudyManikin777]

but more on topic, are you trying to say that the energy calc I gave you (that you asked for) isn't valid because against your forcefield because it's equalized AP? If that's the case then by your logic there's literally no character in all of fiction that can overload the forcefield, the primary method of getting past it

All the characters in the tournament would end up having to be too weak to be able to breakthrough it with sheer strength

 

[FRIMI]

so in other words yes, you are in fact saying that no character in fiction can overload the amount of energy the forcefield can take

 

[BluudyManikin777]

no character in fiction

this tournament* If you have enough strength to overpower it, then you can breakthrough it. Everyone in this tournament (I think) is normally stronger than Nia. They'd all have to be put to her level

 

[FRIMI]

there is no character in fiction that, when put in this scenario, could have enough energy output to overload the forcefield. It doesn't matter how strong they'd normally be. Also you keep saying strength, but I'm specifically talking about shots that are literally powered by the core of the sun. That's not just having a certain amount of force behind a punch or something. There is inherently a certain amount of energy there. We can say that the AP is equalized but you know what's not? Heat manipulation. A lot of that energy is inherently going to be stored in the form of heat and yet you dont say that the attacks are also cooler because AP is equalized. Because the energy output is still there, its just not what we would traditionally classify as AP

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

Forcefield creation isn't even on nia tepplep's profile.

 

[Popted2]

okay so what's the problem here what are the advantages and wincons of the characters?

 

[Lou_change]

okay so what's the problem here what are the advantages and wincons of the characters?

No standard ap and forcefields are becoming indestructible effectively.

 

[BluudyManikin777]

Forcefield creation isn't even on nia tepplep's profile.

It’s an ability of the Mugann we’ve been talking about this entire time, haven’t you been reading the conversation?

 

[DemonicDude]

That doesn't change the fact that it should be mentioned on the profile "if it's not" already.

 

[Lou_change]

No standard ap and forcefields are becoming indestructible effectively.

That doesn't change the fact that it should be mentioned on the profile "if it's not" already.

So how do we deal with that.

 

[BluudyManikin777]

That doesn't change the fact that it should be mentioned on the profile "if it's not" already.

The Mugann don’t have profiles anymore, they were deleted

 

[DemonicDude]

Why were they deleted ?

 

[FRIMI]

okay so what's the problem here what are the advantages and wincons of the characters?

seems like Nia's current wincon is relying on her summons to take out VTSG while she peaces out to another planet. In particular the argument is supposed to be that this one big summon is setting up for what's supposed to be a big electricity attack while a bunch of smaller fodder summons distract (I'm not convinced that this will actually win the fight because of stat equalization, but if we're supposed to agree that the forcefields are literally impossible to get through by a particular interpretation of the rules of the tourney then theres literally nothing anyone can do) the electricity attack is supposed to stun VTSG and all of its summons long enough to be fully taken out.

VTSG's wincons is involving taking out Nia's summons since they can't reach Nia until she comes back to the battlefield. The biggest argument for this right now is that the plasma balls from VTSG and beams from the avatar summons should have enough energy output to quickly overload the forcefields and take them out to then promptly fly over the resulting explosions that happen when Nia's summons die. However since it's really just a matter of surviving until Nia comes back to the battlefield so VTSG can overwhelm her with rapidfire vaporizing sun beams, other viable options involve freezing Nia's summons with ice manipulation, slowing them with glue, and (probably most useful) indefinitely knocking them away as they approach with the multiple methods of knockback that VTSG has such as its main attack which has knockback by default, a forcefield which has an even stronger knockback if anything approaches VTSG too close, and summoning tornadoes (note that all of these stalling methods are completely unnecessary if VTSG and its summons can in fact overwhelm the Mugann forcefields, which I'm still arguing that they should)

 

[FRIMI]

The main problem is that if we are to accept Bluudy's argument here then that means that any typically weak character with a stronger forcefield (which is kinda the point of forcefields, so this is gonna be MOST characters with forcefields) is effectively indestructible which is literally the reason why DD wouldn't allow characters with certain types of immortality or strong enough regen.

That's not even mentioning the fact that for the sake of this fight, Nia literally only exists to equalize the stats low enough that this could work. If the Giant Mugann was the actual character participating in the tourney (and the Mugann are doing all the fighting here while Nia literally self-BFR's) then there would be no argument over whether there would be enough energy to get past the forcefield. Now normally fighting like a pokemon trainer isn't an issue because the sheer existence of your character doesn't serve to necessarily nerf the opponent so it's still a fair fight, but in this particular case Simply because Nia is the one listed in the tourney and is weaker, Bluddy wishes to argue that not only are everyone's stats equal to hers (as opposed to the other way around), the actual energy output of the sun (as used in an energy calc for Super Monkey) is now also lowered to match Nia's energy output. But if we're going to be saying that forcefields aren't contributing to a character's durability then I will be saying that the energy from the avatar's attacks should also be taken as it is when interacting with said forcefield otherwise this literally creates a precedent for unkillable characters and I think it's obvious why that's a problem

 

[BluudyManikin777]

So what’s stopping the Giant Mugann from just surrounding everyone and incapacitating with Electricity Manipulation?

 

[BluudyManikin777]

I think it's obvious why that's a problem

His rules are already set in stone. Why can’t we just eliminate the characters?

 

[Popted2]

His rules are already set in stone. Why can’t we just eliminate the characters?

which one?

 

[BluudyManikin777]

which one?

depends. Who’s forcefields are op for this tournament?

 

[BluudyManikin777]

If the Mugann’s forcefields are too much, just eliminate Nia

 

[FRIMI]

its not the forcefield that's the issue its the fact that you're arguing every character is inherently too weak to break through it even though that's NOT how the rules were established, that's your personal interpretation

 

[FRIMI]

So what’s stopping the Giant Mugann from just surrounding everyone and incapacitating with Electricity Manipulation?

well as I was arguing before, VTSG has plenty of methods of knockback. But also, you mentioned earlier that the Giant Mugann encompasses everything several kilometers around? But it's movement speed is equalized to be subsonic right? How long is that gonna take, especially once it's been hit with glue that lowers its movement speed even more?

 

[BluudyManikin777]

its not the forcefield that's the issue its the fact that you're arguing every character is inherently too weak to break through it even though that's NOT how the rules were established, that's your personal interpretation

If everyone is equalized to be at Nia’s level, and the forcefields remain at the same level as they are normally, then that’s clearly a problem. DD said that forcefields aren’t durability, therefore they aren’t affected

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

seems like Nia's current wincon is relying on her summons to take out VTSG while she peaces out to another planet. In particular the argument is supposed to be that this one big summon is setting up for what's supposed to be a big electricity attack while a bunch of smaller fodder summons distract (I'm not convinced that this will actually win the fight because of stat equalization, but if we're supposed to agree that the forcefields are literally impossible to get through by a particular interpretation of the rules of the tourney then theres literally nothing anyone can do) the electricity attack is supposed to stun VTSG and all of its summons long enough to be fully taken out.

VTSG's wincons is involving taking out Nia's summons since they can't reach Nia until she comes back to the battlefield. The biggest argument for this right now is that the plasma balls from VTSG and beams from the avatar summons should have enough energy output to quickly overload the forcefields and take them out to then promptly fly over the resulting explosions that happen when Nia's summons die. However since it's really just a matter of surviving until Nia comes back to the battlefield so VTSG can overwhelm her with rapidfire vaporizing sun beams, other viable options involve freezing Nia's summons with ice manipulation, slowing them with glue, and (probably most useful) indefinitely knocking them away as they approach with the multiple methods of knockback that VTSG has such as its main attack which has knockback by default, a forcefield which has an even stronger knockback if anything approaches VTSG too close, and summoning tornadoes (note that all of these stalling methods are completely unnecessary if VTSG and its summons can in fact overwhelm the Mugann forcefields, which I'm still arguing that they should)

I think the super monkey takes this, forcefield having unbeatble durability because of equalized stats sounds like taking advantage of the not fully fledged out rules.

 

[FRIMI]

If everyone is equalized to be at Nia’s level

that's an assumption

and the forcefields remain at the same level as they are normally

But the primary method of breaking them is overloading their forcefields' energy intake so I don't see why I can't use the energy calc I linked earlier as just energy and not consider it when talking about AP

 

[FRIMI]

I think the super monkey takes this, forcefield having unbeatble durability because of equalized stats sounds like taking advantage of the not fully fledged out rules.

I should probably mention that you are making that decision based on my inherently biased description of both wincons, so in an effort to be fair, @BluudyManikin777 did I describe Nia's wincons accurately in your opinion?

 

[BluudyManikin777]

that's an assumption

Wdym? That’s how it would work, Nia is like physically the weakest in the tournament

 

[BluudyManikin777]

did I describe Nia's wincons accurately in your opinion?

What wincons

 

[FRIMI]

What wincons

seems like Nia's current wincon is relying on her summons to take out VTSG while she peaces out to another planet. In particular the argument is supposed to be that this one big summon is setting up for what's supposed to be a big electricity attack while a bunch of smaller fodder summons distract (I'm not convinced that this will actually win the fight because of stat equalization, but if we're supposed to agree that the forcefields are literally impossible to get through by a particular interpretation of the rules of the tourney then theres literally nothing anyone can do) the electricity attack is supposed to stun VTSG and all of its summons long enough to be fully taken out.

VTSG's wincons is involving taking out Nia's summons since they can't reach Nia until she comes back to the battlefield. The biggest argument for this right now is that the plasma balls from VTSG and beams from the avatar summons should have enough energy output to quickly overload the forcefields and take them out to then promptly fly over the resulting explosions that happen when Nia's summons die. However since it's really just a matter of surviving until Nia comes back to the battlefield so VTSG can overwhelm her with rapidfire vaporizing sun beams, other viable options involve freezing Nia's summons with ice manipulation, slowing them with glue, and (probably most useful) indefinitely knocking them away as they approach with the multiple methods of knockback that VTSG has such as its main attack which has knockback by default, a forcefield which has an even stronger knockback if anything approaches VTSG too close, and summoning tornadoes (note that all of these stalling methods are completely unnecessary if VTSG and its summons can in fact overwhelm the Mugann forcefields, which I'm still arguing that they should)

 

[BluudyManikin777]

Wait… can they breathe in space?