Elden Ring General Discussion

[Chritin]

I'd have considered this argument, had the invasions/wanderings NOT been a part of the lore/story. But, as we know at certain locations in the Lands Between, there are several AI invasions as well as our invasions into worlds with AI Tarnished. This means that the world hopping is done canonically, albeit the why and how aren't exactly know like you pointed out. Moreover, if they're NOT different worlds, there'd be several contradictions such as the ones that I pointed out.

The multiple Erdtrees we see in Elden Beast's arena further solidify this, as the Erdtree defines order in all of existence. Multiple Erdtrees would mean that there are multiple existence(s)/realities. I believe this much evidence is enough for a verse like Elden Ring, as its medieval fantasy setting simply doesn't allow for fairly modern cosmological terms such as "universe" being used.

Just cause invasions are apart of the hame doesn’t mean that the rules applied to them aren’t just game mechanics. Invasions where we help NPCs happen in our game world, it’s just interacting with summon signs is a way for us to initiate combat. As an example, Yura in our world summons is to help him when he’s dealing with bloody fingers (specifically at Raya Lucaria). Later when he dies, we see his body in our world and we don’t need a summon sign. My point is that NPCs like Yura and the things that happen to them exist in our world, it’s just the developers use summon signs as a conduit for us to interact with those encounters. It’s the same with Leda when she goes to fight the Hornsent or Ansbach. Hell it’s even the same for red NPCs like Thiollier.

Granted, I will say the idea of multiple Erdtrees implying the existence of other worlds is interesting and worth arguing, I don’t see any other relevant evidence besides their existence which points to anything. And like Latin said too, I’m open to the idea, but in my opinion there isn’t much strong evidence to say whether the idea of invading other worlds is literal or not.

Edit: This is also something else I just noticed while looking at descriptions, but I feel like it’s kind of obvious that a lot of the “other world” statements used in multiplayer items are in sections of non-canon information. They use words like “multiplayer”, “cooperator”, “invader”, “boss”, etc, while explicitly keeping the lore names of things in separate parentheses. Thus, I think it makes it kinda obvious that the kind of invasion we use on other players is separate from how invasions are used in game, and the word worlds is just used to describe said mechanic.

I hope that all makes sense, I know I’m kinda spouting off a lot of ideas lol.

 

[CrisisCrysis]

Just cause invasions are apart of the hame doesn’t mean that the rules applied to them aren’t just game mechanics. Invasions where we help NPCs happen in our game world, it’s just interacting with summon signs is a way for us to initiate combat. As an example, Yura in our world summons is to help him when he’s dealing with bloody fingers (specifically at Raya Lucaria). Later when he dies, we see his body in our world and we don’t need a summon sign. My point is that NPCs like Yura and the things that happen to them exist in our world, it’s just the developers use summon signs as a conduit for us to interact with those encounters. It’s the same with Leda when she goes to fight the Hornsent or Ansbach. Hell it’s even the same for red NPCs like Thiollier.

Granted, I will say the idea of multiple Erdtrees implying the existence of other worlds is interesting and worth arguing, I don’t see any other relevant evidence besides their existence which points to anything. And like Latin said too, I’m open to the idea, but in my opinion there isn’t much strong evidence to say whether the idea of invading other worlds is literal or not.

Edit: This is also something else I just noticed while looking at descriptions, but I feel like it’s kind of obvious that a lot of the “other world” statements used in multiplayer items are in sections of non-canon information. They use words like “multiplayer”, “cooperator”, “invader”, “boss”, etc, while explicitly keeping the lore names of things in separate parentheses. Thus, I think it makes it kinda obvious that the kind of invasion we use on other players is separate from how invasions are used in game, and the word worlds is just used to describe said mechanic.

I hope that all makes sense, I know I’m kinda spouting off a lot of ideas lol.

But these are lore items with quests dedicated to them (Bloody Finger), so why would their descriptions be non-canon? Terms like "multiplayer", "co-operator", etc are there so that the player can understand what the item does in IRL terms, but the part stating:-

Attempts an invasion of another player's world.
If successful, you will arrive as an invader (Bloody Finger) with the objective of defeating the Host of Fingers of that world.

Is using in-lore terminology. So why would it be non-canon? The multiple Erdtrees part in EB's arena can be used in conjunction with this.

 

[ChoursDropoff]

I mean, we blatantly get NPCs that invade "our world". And we often wander into/invade "their world" as well. The game clearly draws a

I mean should we take that literal thought?

 

[CrisisCrysis]

In Bloodborne's case, it cannot be the same universe or anything. There cannot be many of the same Great Ones like Formless Odeon or MP. "Worlds" is very much about different universes

These descriptions should be a good enough proof for a 2-C BB cosmology.

 

[CrisisCrysis]

I mean should we take that literal thought?

I don't think that there's any figurative meaning behind those lines. The item used for world hopping (Bloody Finger) is a part of the lore and has a quest dedicated to it. We know that these "worlds" are different because if they weren't, there would be lore contradictions. EB's arena having multiple Erdtrees in the backdrop (that govern all of existence individually) further corroborate this ER multiverse theory.

 

[Chritin]

But these are lore items with quests dedicated to them (Bloody Finger), so why would their descriptions be non-canon? Terms like "multiplayer", "co-operator", etc are there so that the player can understand what the item does in IRL terms, but the part stating:-

Is using in-lore terminology. So why would it be non-canon? The multiple Erdtrees part in EB's arena can be used in conjunction with this.

Sorry, non-cannon was a bad term to use. I’m not saying the items descriptions are entirely non cannon, but that instead of their descriptions being used to convey story elements to the player, they are instead being used to explain gameplay mechanics. Thus, I don’t see how lord information could be taken from them.

 

[CrisisCrysis]

Sorry, non-cannon was a bad term to use. I’m not saying the items descriptions are entirely non cannon, but that instead of their descriptions being used to convey story elements to the player, they are instead being used to explain gameplay mechanics. Thus, I don’t see how lord information could be taken from them.

"Host of fingers", "world", and "invaders" are lore terms, while "multiplayer", "cooperative", etc convey gameplay mechanics. When you defeat an invader, the game states "INVADER VANQUISHED". It's similar to how the game says "ENEMY FELLED", "GREAT ENEMY FELLED", "LEGEND FELLED", "DEMIGOD FELLED", and "GOD SLAIN". So, "invaders" arriving from different "worlds" where they have to defeat the player i.e. "host of fingers", is canon to the lore.

 

[M3X_2.0]

Don’t you invade Sellen’s world and jump her with Jerren

 

[Phsccarvalho]

I sided with Sellen, and was terribly disturbed when she turned into that weird sphere.

If I'm going to do an NG+ one day, I won't complete her mission (or Jerren's, I don't want to do the game too many times)

 

[Chritin]

I sided with Sellen, and was terribly disturbed when she turned into that weird sphere.

If I'm going to do an NG+ one day, I won't complete her mission (or Jerren's, I don't want to do the game too many times)

What insight does to a mf

 

[ArkhamDC06]

I sided with Sellen, and was terribly disturbed when she turned into that weird sphere.

If I'm going to do an NG+ one day, I won't complete her mission (or Jerren's, I don't want to do the game too many times)

I love Sellen but unfortunately for her, my quest to gain almost to really all spells in the game mattered more. Stars of Ruin it is.

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

How we feeling about this one boys?

https://bangsbangingblogs.blogspot.com/2024/08/bangs-blogs-link.html

 

[HammerStrikes219]

How we feeling about this one boys?

https://bangsbangingblogs.blogspot.com/2024/08/bangs-blogs-link.html

Damn, it doesn’t actually have constellation in the OG JP translation.


Falling stars are normally used to refer to meteorites and comets.

Which is still used in Modern times



This says “shooting star”, but “falling stars” mean the same thing here anyway

What causes a "falling star"?

Oh yeah, this article from NASA is also a thing

Edit:

 

[HammerStrikes219]

Granted, I will say the idea of multiple Erdtrees implying the existence of other worlds is interesting and worth arguing, I

Funny enough, the whole multiple Erdtrees bring argued for is only from Elden Beast. More specifically, the dimension you get teleported into when fighting against Elden Beast, and I meant Literally fighting against Elden Beast in a pocket dimension or an illusionary dimension. Whatever counts.

 

[Latin_Rhythms]

How we feeling about this one boys?

https://bangsbangingblogs.blogspot.com/2024/08/bangs-blogs-link.html

brb going to write a letter to Miyazaki to get him to confirm the Elden Beast arena is a dimension and not an illusion to end this debate once and for all. Anyway, can't say I disagree too much if the tarnished isn't going to be scaled to the actual star level. however, I don't think they should really disregard the nebula items that much since they're not very big. If bloodbone being able to summon a singular small exploding star is able to get it to the island - dwarf star level(depending on the calculation). Then the tarnished and Elden beast creating a small nebula which have several small stars created and explode, should put them quite high up imo. And I did double-check the Japanese, it does directly say it's a nebula created by infusing the weapon with magic that then explodes. AKA the tarnished puts their own energy in the weapon to create a nebula that then explodes in the form of tiny stars.

 

[Latin_Rhythms]

brb going to write a letter to Miyazaki to get him to confirm the Elden Beast arena is a dimension and not an illusion to end this debate once and for all. Anyway, can't say I disagree too much if the tarnished isn't going to be scaled to the actual star level. however, I don't think they should really disregard the nebula items that much since they're not very big. If bloodbone being able to summon a singular small exploding star is able to get it to the island - dwarf star level(depending on the calculation). Then the tarnished and Elden beast creating a small nebula which have several small stars created and explode. that should put them quite high up imo. And I did double-check the Japanese, it does directly say it's a nebula created by infusing the weapon with magic that then explodes. AKA the tarnished puts their own energy in the weapon to create a nebula that then explodes in the form of tiny stars.

oh, how I lement the dialogue at castle sol of Radahan being the reason they couldn't cause the eclipse was cut.

 

[Dust_Collector]

How we feeling about this one boys?

https://bangsbangingblogs.blogspot.com/2024/08/bangs-blogs-link.html

How do we feel about the match up itself or the constellation stuff for Radahn?

If the former, haven't read it much yet, if the latter, yeah that could put a serious dent in even keeping the tier 4 stuff as possibily rating. Curious about that Small Planet level calc tho.

 

[Latin_Rhythms]

How do we feel about the match up itself or the constellation stuff for Radahn?

If the former, haven't read it much yet, if the latter, yeah that could put a serious dent in even keeping the tier 4 stuff as possibily rating. Curious about that Small Planet level calc tho.

uhh what are you talking about don't you know flowing stars is just an idiom for constellations? this changes nothing, the tier 4 ratings will survive trust. it isn't over yet

seriously though, before I joined the forum I was curious why the Elden ring manga didn't mention constellations when talking about Radahan holding back the stars. Then I remembered that Japanese dialogue may be different so I checked that out and yeah. It says something along the lines of flowing stars without the kanji for constellations. So that was quite a shock. It makes me seriously wonder what going on in the translation process. How do we go from "flowing stars, 流れる星" to "swirling constellations" quite the difference.

But if thats going to be taken out then truly only the preceptors big hat can save tier 4 elden ring now.

 

[ArkhamDC06]

It really pains me honestly

 

[Latin_Rhythms]

It really pains me honestly

if you're talking about the constellation thing, then yeah it's a shame to not have it be directly constellations. but alas not all is lost.

there are few items that mention fate is in the starry night sky.

Small wooden roundshield that has been reinforced with metal.
It is light and easy to handle, but cannot offer the damage negation
of a true metal shield.

The design is said to represent the stars of the night sky,
portending fate.

(this one has firey balls inside it, pretty damning that its typical stars)
Large hat with the movements of the stars drawn on the inside of the brim.
Worn by the magic preceptors who served the Carian royals.


Increases mind to the detriment of stamina.


Glintstone sorcerers are the descendants of astrologers,
a fact that the Carians remain of aware of.
Even if their fate has been long severed from the stars.

(btw I checked the Japanese for these and it's pretty much the same)
but star is a catch-all term in Elden's ring. Referring to normal stars, falling stars/meteorites, and falling star beasts.
so which is it talking about? I feel confident that it's talking about the typical stars one would think about alongside astels/falling star beasts.
I believe this to be the case because as the items say above fate was in the night sky. And when you look at the night sky(especially in Liurnia) you see a beautiful starry sky with space dust and nebulas. Just like our own Milky Way.

So they're saying that fate is in that sky. but then what about Astel and the other star beast? Well, something I don't see people call out too often is that they're malformed. Astel and its previous stages aren't the norm for stars at all. One way to even translate the Japanese of Astel's title would be "bastard of the stars". So something went very wrong with these guys. And that's why they're called stars of ill omen, they're stars that got messed up in their creation and now carry a dark fate with them.

that's why I find it very unlikely every star in the Elden ring sky is an astel/meteorite, since again those guys are malformed, the several items and attacks that create a very explicit nebula that has exploding star visuals, and the existence of the sun.

This all leads me to believe that fate is connected to both of them. The typical stars of the night sky and the malformed ones. Radahan stopped both, and the stars we see move after his death are just the meteorites/beasts/whatever that was the closest to the planet. It makes sense that if Radahan's repulsions was stopped they'd immediately start their movement into the atmosphere and burn up. But that wouldn't be noticeable with the real stars light years away(plus gameplay limitations and all that).

anyway, that's pretty much my thoughts on the whole Radahan star debacle. I'd also like to mention that while the Japanese text is what is directly written, I don't think the English should be written off entirely as Miyazaki's direction style is very, well, directed. you pretty much have to get the Okay from him with everything in some way or another. He's even in the booths as the VA record. So flowing stars to constellations may not be the biggest leap after all.

 

[Blackcurrant91]

I should note, ancient Babylonians also referred to any celestial object as a star.

 

[Planck69]

To add, there's direct mention of star clusters existing and collapsing.

Legendary sorcery devised by Lusat, primeval sorcerers.

Fires twelve dark shooting stars that pursue the target. This sorcery can be cast while in motion. Charging increases potency.

When Lusat glimpsed into the primeval current, he beheld the final moments of a great star cluster, and upon seeing it, he too was broken.

- Stars of Ruin

That and starry expanse, which doesn't sound like a meteor shower or something similar.

Legendary sorcery devised by Azur, primeval sorcerer.

Fires a tremendous comet in a torrent akin to the distant starry expanse, the place said to be the origin of glintstone.
Hold to continue releasing the sorcery's power.

When Azur glimpsed into the primeval current, he saw darkness. He was left both bewitched and fearful of the abyss.

- Comet Azur

 

[Blackcurrant91]

To add, there's direct mention of star clusters existing and collapsing.



That and starry expanse, which doesn't sound like a meteor shower or something similar.

There is also mention of a 'polar star' in a certain item descript

 

[Latin_Rhythms]

Awhile ago I saw some talk about the divine beast dancing lion storm creation being a potentially good feat. Anyone work on that?

 

[Chritin]

Awhile ago I saw some talk about the divine beast dancing lion storm creation being a potentially good feat. Anyone work on that?

It could be, but it’d take A LOT of assumption. His actual storm attacks aren’t anything impressive. The storms that it summons might be impressive, but I honestly don’t see them being anything better than other calcs for that point in the game. Assuming the storms cover the entirely of Belurat, at best they’re probably in the low tier 7 range.

 

[Latin_Rhythms]

It could be, but it’d take A LOT of assumption. His actual storm attacks aren’t anything impressive. The storms that it summons might be impressive, but I honestly don’t see them being anything better than other calcs for that point in the game. Assuming the storms cover the entirely of Belurat, at best they’re probably in the low tier 7 range.

I see, just for fun hypothetical where would it place if it covered the entire lands between in the same super fast time frame. The land of shadow used to be apart of the lands between after all.

 

[CrisisCrysis]

How do we know that Radahn doesn't hold up all the stars in universe, but only the stars local to earth's nightsky? I mean, he's called the "conqueror of the stars" and the "Starscourge". Why would they give him that title if he only keeps a few stars in place, rather than every star in the universe? We know that in the Lands Between, they do have a surprising amount of cosmological knowledge (we see a portrait of a galaxy in Ranni's room in one of the endings IIRC), so on what basis are we sure that someone who was stated to seal the fate of "the stars" actually affected just the nearby stars?

 

[Latin_Rhythms]

How do we know that Radahn doesn't hold up all the stars in universe, but only the stars local to earth's nightsky? I mean, he's called the "conqueror of the stars" and the "Starscourge". Why would they give him that title if he only keeps a few stars in place, rather than every star in the universe? We know that in the Lands Between, they do have a surprising amount of cosmological knowledge (we see a portrait of a galaxy in Ranni's room in one of the endings IIRC), so on what basis are we sure that someone who was stated to seal the fate of "the stars" only did so to nearby stars?

LISTEN MAN we can barely even agree to likely or possibly tier 4, and even then there are still conflicting opinions on the whole star thing. all the way up to every star in the UNIVERSE is crazy talk /j

For real though, theres just not enough info for it. At most we get items saying fate is the night sky, and so we can bare minimum assume(assuming you're team real star) that he holds back every visable star in the night sky. putting him at his current tier 4 rating. but thats about it. theres no items that give direct refrences to other galaxies and what not.

so it would be up to interpertation to say he stopped more than the ones in the night sky. Like you said theres is that galaxy looking(emphesis on the looking) structure in rannis ending implying a bigger cosmos than the night sky seen in game. Theres also the mention of a great star cluster, but that could still be in the normal night sky. think i saw a guy say gideon staff had a galaxy in the orb, implying the people of the elden ring world know about galaxies another structures. can't really say too much on that one though. one could also mention that the inners of Elden besat look like a galaxy super cluster, serving as dual symbolism for it's nervous system and grandure of the order of the universe.

but again those are all things infered and implied from looking deeper. much more vauge than the items that directly say fate is in the stary sky. that's my take

 

[Blackcurrant91]

How do we know that Radahn doesn't hold up all the stars in universe, but only the stars local to earth's nightsky? I mean, he's called the "conqueror of the stars" and the "Starscourge". Why would they give him that title if he only keeps a few stars in place, rather than every star in the universe? We know that in the Lands Between, they do have a surprising amount of cosmological knowledge (we see a portrait of a galaxy in Ranni's room in one of the endings IIRC), so on what basis are we sure that someone who was stated to seal the fate of "the stars" actually affected just the nearby stars?

Well thats partly why we have the profiles as a varies rating. In the same way people argue that he only affects meteors (which is a huge downplay), arguing that he affected every star in the universe at once is a huge highball. The feat is inherently vague as such.

 

[Chritin]

How do we know that Radahn doesn't hold up all the stars in universe, but only the stars local to earth's nightsky? I mean, he's called the "conqueror of the stars" and the "Starscourge". Why would they give him that title if he only keeps a few stars in place, rather than every star in the universe? We know that in the Lands Between, they do have a surprising amount of cosmological knowledge (we see a portrait of a galaxy in Ranni's room in one of the endings IIRC), so on what basis are we sure that someone who was stated to seal the fate of "the stars" actually affected just the nearby stars?

Yeah, basically what Latin said.

For the most part it’s not completely crazy to assume he stopped all the stars, but we can barely agree on if any of them are actually stars or not. It’s a safe bet to just go off what we see rather than make any more assumptions.

 

[Latin_Rhythms]

LISTEN MAN we can barely even agree to likely or possibly tier 4, and even then there are still conflicting opinions on the whole star thing. all the way up to every star in the UNIVERSE is crazy talk /j

For real though, theres just not enough info for it. At most we get items saying fate is the night sky, and so we can bare minimum assume(assuming you're team real star) that he holds back every visable star in the night sky. putting him at his current tier 4 rating. but thats about it. theres no items that give direct refrences to other galaxies and what not.

so it would be up to interpertation to say he stopped more than the ones in the night sky. Like you said theres is that galaxy looking(emphesis on the looking) structure in rannis ending implying a bigger cosmos than the night sky seen in game. Theres also the mention of a great star cluster, but that could still be in the normal night sky. think i saw a guy say gideon staff had a galaxy in the orb, implying the people of the elden ring world know about galaxies another structures. can't really say too much on that one though. one could also mention that the inners of Elden besat look like a galaxy super cluster, serving as dual symbolism for it's nervous system and grandure of the order of the universe.

but again those are all things infered and implied from looking deeper. much more vauge than the items that directly say fate is in the stary sky. that's my take

went in-game to see Gideon's staff, and well it does look like a galaxy. and the item description says

Scepter in the form of a hand grasping a pearl. Signature weapon
of Sir Gideon Ofnir, the All-Knowing. The pearl stands for the
world, the heavens, and an eye, representing the many forms of
knowledge, never fully attainable. Even knowing that, the All-
Knowing's hand grasps for it.

but still pretty vague about it. but I will still throw it out there.

Edit: just double-checked the Japanese, heavens from the English translation is 宇宙 or uchu aka Universe like explicitly. and given the space imagery in the item, implications can be made. but again those are implications and nothing truly direct. But sill this is actually super interesting to think about.

 

[CrisisCrysis]

From what I understood off the lore, Elden Ring's heavens/universe has conventional stars which are formed normally, and malformed stars that result in Astel(s). Some of the meteors/fallingstars that crash on the Lands Between have Fallingstar Beasts in them.

 

[Blackcurrant91]

I will be working on an ER cosmology blog in the near future. Hopefully it clears all these things up.

 

[Latin_Rhythms]

I will be working on an ER cosmology blog in the near future. Hopefully it clears all these things up.

looking forward to it

 

[Chritin]

I will be working on an ER cosmology blog in the near future. Hopefully it clears all these things up.

I’m happy to help (for as much as I do struggle with cosmology lol)

 

[Dust_Collector]

I like how this random blog about who'd win between Link and the Tarnished reignited the star level Elden Ring debate again lol

 

[CrackerVolley]

I've also decided to make a profile for Thops. Is it reasonable to just downscale him from a starting Tarnished?

 

[CrackerVolley]

Oh right, also is it reasonable to place in the Radagon and Marika's techniques section the incantations that are directly associated them (Minor Erdtree, the various Rings of Light spells, the other Golden Order spells, etc.), but in a different tab to Radagon's/their boss moveset?

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

I've also decided to make a profile for Thops. Is it reasonable to just downscale him from a starting Tarnished?

I don't see anything wrong with that, though by sheer technicality shouldn't his P&A have two keys considering he didn't make Thops' Barrier until right before his demise when he actually gained entry into the academy?

 

[Latin_Rhythms]

I’m happy to help (for as much as I do struggle with cosmology lol)

I'd also be willing to help out in any way I can.