Elden Ring General Discussion

[Emirp sumitpo]

Sure. She should definitely be Demi-God level regardless of Mohg by virtue of being Rennala's sister and being arguably superior to Rennala.

What's the evidence of her being superior to Rennala?

 

[RinneItachi]

What's the evidence of her being superior to Rennala?

She can use a Twin Moon spell, a higher level spell than Rennala's Full Moon, which is her best spell. She seems similarly adept in magic but also has great melee skills. She is a FAR later game boss than Rennala and should scale to Mohg as you mentioned, who in turn is stronger than Rennala (at least the one projected by Ranni). Overall I think the portrayal is there even if there's no direct evidence. At the very least I couldn't see her being inferior.

 

[RinneItachi]

What about the Dragon Priestess? She apparently was a crucial aspect in Placidusax's battle with Bayle according to her heart's description. She's also an Ash Summon if you do things properly so she can throw hands currently too.

Eh she doesn't actually do much in-game. I think only some NPC's and the main bosses are worth profiles.

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

Eh she doesn't actually do much in-game. I think only some NPC's and the main bosses are worth profiles.

I'd still say she's way stronger than most of the other Spirit Ashes we have already are considering she's both near the very end of the game time frame for scaling as well as being an admittedly nerfed Ancient Dragon.

 

[Planck69]

What's the evidence of her being superior to Rennala?

Vibes.

In all seriousness, I can see her scaling being "Shouldn't be overwhelmingly weaker than her sister's prime" or smth.

 

[Emirp sumitpo]

She can use a Twin Moon spell, a higher level spell than Rennala's Full Moon, which is her best spell. She seems similarly adept in magic but also has great melee skills. She is a FAR later game boss than Rennala and should scale to Mohg as you mentioned, who in turn is stronger than Rennala (at least the one projected by Ranni). Overall I think the portrayal is there even if there's no direct evidence. At the very least I couldn't see her being inferior.

4-A Rellana oooh

Wouldn't that make Messmer 4-A as well?

 

[Qawsedf234]

I did hear that Miyazaki called him an Empyrean in an interview but don't take my word for it at all.

He didn't to my understanding

宮崎はい。英雄譚というテーマは変わりません。

キーアートに描かれているキャラクターの“メスメル”がわかりやすいと思うのですが、彼もまた英雄のひとりです。

メスメルが座っている椅子は、本編で“忌み王、モーゴット”との戦いの舞台にあった椅子と同じもので、彼もまたゴドリックやマレニア、ラダーン、ライカードなどと同格の存在であり、“マリカの子”とも呼ばれています。

What he basically said was "Messmer is the son of Marika, who is an Empyrean". or "Messmer is the son of Empyrean Marika".

She should definitely be Demi-God level regardless of Mohg by virtue of being Rennala's sister and being arguably superior to Rennala.

I think Rellana should go in the "At least 7-A, likely High 4-C, potentially much higher" category. Though I'm not sure about her being superior to a Prime Rennala.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Commander Gaius has no real scaling, nor feats or statements, I don't even know where to put him if he even deserves a profile.

While I do agree, you should consider this:

The black iron gauntlets of Commander Gaius. Part of an armor set patterned after fallen seeds. Gaius was the most senior disciple of the same Alabaster Lord who taught Radahn and Gaea gravitational technique.

Radahn and Gaius' master was such a G that he taught Gaius boar Gaea the ability to use gravitational magic. Making it the second random animal taught magic by wizards in the setting.

So who wouldn't want to make a profile on him?

 

[Sir_sun_man]

While I do agree, you should consider this:

Radahn and Gaius' master was such a G that he taught Gaius boar Gaea the ability to use gravitational magic. Making it the second random animal taught magic by wizards in the setting.

So who wouldn't want to make a profile on him?

gaius should at least be high 7-C for the rivalry with young radahn (meaning he can at least somewhat compete with a young demi god) anything above that is a questionable.

 

[The_one_you_least_expect]

Gonna try out the game either today or tomorrow

 

[ArkhamDC06]

Top/God Tiers are definitely Messmer, Radahn, Miquella and Bayle, with Rellana, Romina and Midra not far below. Don't know where to put Metyr but she shouldn't be that low (though I don't think she might be on par with the Elden Beast)

 

[Qawsedf234]

she shouldn't be that low (though I don't think she might be on par with the Elden Beast)

Imo she can't be, since the tree barrier is so powerful that she/The Two Fingers have zero idea how to break it and basically have a panic attack about what to do. So Metyr < Gods < Elden Ring / Elden Beast.

I would say that she should have Goddess Malenia's tier just based on when you fight here. Since being logical placement wise she's fought either right after Messmer or right before him.

 

[Qawsedf234]

So as a question, since the scaling is becoming important now, what powers would the Fire Giant qualify for? I'm thinking:

Spoiler: DLC Spoilers since they're AP justifications

Superhuman Physical Characteristics, Large Size (Type 1; Is 25 meters tall), Magic, Fire Manipulation and Energy Projection (Can generate homing fireballs, a rain of fire attacks and breathe fire), Shockwave Inducement, (Can generate massive shockwaves by slamming the ground), Statistics Amplification (Can sacrifice parts of its body to summon the Fell God's power, increasing the strength of his fire manipulation), Immortality (Type 1 & 8; Cursed by Queen Marika to eternal life to guard the Forge of Giants)

Attack Potency: At least Mountain level, likely Multi-Solar System level (Canonically battled after the Tarnished defeated Malenia and Mohg, indicating that the Fire Giant is battled after completing the events of Shadows of the Erdtree and after the Tarnished has defeated Lord Radahn and God Miquella. Alexander, who has seen Radahn's and possibly Rykard's power, directly compared the Fire Giant's strength to a God and estimated that no one within The Lands Between other than the Tarnished would be capable of defeating it.)

Speed: Superhuman movement speed due to size. Sub-Relativistic+ reactions and combat speed (Able to keep up with a late game Tarnished, who can parry strikes from Lord Radahn)

For lifting strength I was going to give him Class K, but I found this Reddit calc that would give him a Class M rating. You think it would be worth just putting it in a blog and getting it accepted?

Also would the Fire Giant warrant Weapon Mastery for the giant bowl? I would assume no because he just slams and moves it around.

 

[Phsccarvalho]

I'm playing Elden Ring for the first time.

After facing Mohg.

 

[Dust_Collector]

For lifting strength I was going to give him Class K, but I found this Reddit calc that would give him a Class M rating. You think it would be worth just putting it in a blog and getting it accepted?

Also would the Fire Giant warrant Weapon Mastery for the giant bowl? I would assume no because he just slams and moves it around.

If that calc is correct then yeah I'd say putting it in a blog to get it accepted would be worth it. I'd also assume no for Weapon Mastery, minus the shockwave stuff (for obvious reasons) I think just about anyone could easily replicate the attacks he does with his giant bowl due to how simple the attacks are.

 

[Planck69]

Yeah, def no for Weapon Mastery.

 

[Sir_sun_man]

So as a question, since the scaling is becoming important now, what powers would the Fire Giant qualify for? I'm thinking:

I think immortality type 8 is kinda reduntant if we already include type 1 since all the curse does is give him an ageless body so to speak, it doesn't give him any other immortalities so just giving him a type 1 is enough.

 

[Emirp sumitpo]

So as a question, since the scaling is becoming important now, what powers would the Fire Giant qualify for? I'm thinking:

For lifting strength I was going to give him Class K, but I found this Reddit calc that would give him a Class M rating. You think it would be worth just putting it in a blog and getting it accepted?

Also would the Fire Giant warrant Weapon Mastery for the giant bowl? I would assume no because he just slams and moves it around.

Attack Potency: At least Mountain level, likely Multi-Solar System level (Canonically battled after the Tarnished defeated Malenia and Mohg, indicating that the Fire Giant is battled after completing the events of Shadows of the Erdtree and after the Tarnished has defeated Lord Radahn and God Miquella. Alexander, who has seen Radahn's and possibly Rykard's power, directly compared the Fire Giant's strength to a God and estimated that no one within The Lands Between other than the Tarnished would be capable of defeating it.)

I feel scaling to 4-A just feels kinda circular. Because God Miquella/Radahn supposedly scales to Marika right? And afaik, we currently have Marika and Radagon as 4-A, both of which are superior to the Fire Giant.

 

[Planck69]

4-A Fire Giant is eeeh. Didn't Marika kill their Fell God? And its pretty narratively clear that he's not meant to be like, the strongest Fire Giant around or on the level of Marika.

 

[RinneItachi]

Alexander was very confident that the Fire Giant was the strongest opponent he had seen, even liking the Fire Giant to a god and treating it as the greatest feat the Tarnished had achieved so far, implying heavily that Alexander strongly believes that the Fire Giant is stronger than the version of Radahn we fight in Caelid. This is consistent with the fact that the Fire Giant is meant to be fought after Radahn.

I think it's pretty fair to put him around the Rotted Radahn tier. But I'm not sure about scaling him to Promised Consort Radahn just because he is fought after Mohg and Malenia.

 

[Sir_sun_man]

4-A Fire Giant is eeeh. Didn't Marika kill their Fell God? And its pretty narratively clear that he's not meant to be like, the strongest Fire Giant around or on the level of Marika.

I mean I think the second phase is the fell god, the fire giant sacrificing its leg which leads to the opening of the eye and I quote:

burn o Flame
"One of the incantations that draws directly from the power of the Fire Giants.

Raises a series of flame pillars around the caster.

Charging further increases the number of flame pillars.

The Fire Giants borrowed from the power of a fell god,
and still they were defeated.
Yet their failure released them from their solitary curse:
to serve as keepers of the Flame for eternity."

So the fire giant in its second phase has the power of the fell god which could fight merika but lost.

 

[Planck69]

Alexander was very confident that the Fire Giant was the strongest opponent he had seen, even liking the Fire Giant to a god and treating it as the greatest feat the Tarnished had achieved so far, implying heavily that Alexander strongly believes that the Fire Giant is stronger than the version of Radahn we fight in Caelid. This is consistent with the fact that the Fire Giant is meant to be fought after Radahn.

I think it's pretty fair to put him around the Rotted Radahn tier. But I'm not sure about scaling him to Promised Consort Radahn just because he is fought after Mohg and Malenia.

I don't have a problem with him being above Weakened Radhan. But putting him at the level of the gods and Elden Beast is where I draw issue from.

And yeah, bosses being fought after each other being stronger is fine in moderation but we shouldn't let it go too far.

 

[Sir_sun_man]

I mean it could downscale from the god tiers (kinda like maleketh and godfrey) but its definitly not above miquella and radahn in the DLC.

 

[RinneItachi]

I don't have a problem with him being above Weakened Radhan. But putting him at the level of the gods and Elden Beast is where I draw issue from.

And yeah, bosses being fought after each other being stronger is fine in moderation but we shouldn't let it go too far.

I agree. Maliketh and anyone above would literally humiliate the Fire Giant. Godfrey and his army massacred the Fire Giant's race leaving only the one we face alive. Fire Giant is a high-tier but not a god-tier.

 

[Planck69]

I mean I think the second phase is the fell god, the fire giant sacrificing its leg which leads to the opening of the eye and I quote:

burn o Flame
"One of the incantations that draws directly from the power of the Fire Giants.

Raises a series of flame pillars around the caster.

Charging further increases the number of flame pillars.

The Fire Giants borrowed from the power of a fell god,
and still they were defeated.
Yet their failure released them from their solitary curse:
to serve as keepers of the Flame for eternity."

So the fire giant in its second phase has the power of the fell god which could fight merika but lost.

I am aware of this but them borrowing from the power of their god isn't outright confirmation that they become fully comparable to the Fell God that Marika killed. The sentence itself implies that this is something the Fire Giants can just do and I don't think it needs to be explained why that'd be an issue, scaling wise, if Fire Giants could just compare to their god with a ritual.

 

[Sir_sun_man]

I am aware of this but them borrowing from the power of their god isn't outright confirmation that they become fully comparable to the Fell God that Marika killed. The sentence itself implies that this is something the Fire Giants can just do and I don't think it needs to be explained why that'd be an issue, scaling wise, if Fire Giants could just compare to their god with a ritual.

I mean if all fire giants draw from this very much limited power source none of them would be at the level of a god but if the singular remaining giant is the only one taking power from the fell god it can be argued that it would be far greater then the usual, although that is debatable (I think a potentially rating might be in order)

 

[Planck69]

I mean if all fire giants draw from this very much limited power source none of them would be at the level of a god but if the singular remaining giant is the only one taking power from the fell god it can be argued that it would be far greater then the usual, although that is debatable (I think a potentially rating might be in order)

This is very speculative to begin with (we have no idea how much power the ritual gives at all or if it even divides itself), never mind we don't know how strong the Fell God is itself beyond being weaker than Marika. I think it's too flimsy for a potentially rating in all honesty.

 

[Sir_sun_man]

This is very speculative to begin with (we have no idea how much power the ritual gives at all or if it even divides itself), never mind we don't know how strong the Fell God is itself beyond being weaker than Marika. I think it's too flimsy for a potentially rating in all honesty.

eh fair

 

[ArkhamDC06]

Regarding the Fell God, we don't know if it was the God itself or an avatar but it barely matters honestly, if it even does at all, it's clearly stated Marika killed the God itself anyway.

About Alexander, the statement is good but Alexander isn't all knowing either. He doesn't know about things like the Beast and hasn't met Godfrey for example. His words are good for support but shouldn't be seen as some absolute confirmation. The Giant is definitely high tier but not God level.

 

[Ser_Hakim_Dayne]

I made a list of A Song of Ice and Fire (my favorite series/verse of all time) references in Elden Ring:

House Lannister/Golden Lineage:
- The imagery of lions and gold and the nicknames "the Golden" are all used by the Golden Lineage and House Lannister.

Iron Throne/Grafted Blade Greatsword:
- Both the Iron Throne and the Grafted Sword were constructed from the blades of those defeated on the battlefield. These are massive and ugly objects.

Aegon and Balerion the Dread/Igon and Bayle the Dread:
- The relationship between Igon and Bayle the Dread is similar to that between Captain Ahab and Moby Dick, but the names Igon and Bayle the Dread are an obvious reference to Aegon and his dragon Balerion the Dread.

Syrio Forel and Arya Stark/The Blind Swordsman and Malenia:
- Syrio Forel taught a girl of high social status (Arya Stark) the water dance, and even taught her to fight while being blind. The Blind Swordsman taught a girl of high social status (Malenia) the waterfowl dance, and Malenia is able to fight while blind.

Stormlands and Storm's End/Stormhill and Stormveil
- Storm's End and Stormveil are among the strongest castles on their respective continent and they are located in a stormy region, the Stormlands and Stormhill.

Gregor Clegane/Radahn:
- Gregor Clegane is called "The Mountain That Rides" because he is the strongest and tallest person in Westeros and he is so tall that the horse he rides looks tiny in comparison. Radahn is the tallest person in the Lands Between and is described as physically the strongest, and his horse Leonard also seems tiny in comparison. Also both ended up "zombified".

Greenseers/Empyreans:
- Some people are chosen by the Old Gods to become Greenseers, powerful magical beings who are the wise men and leaders of the children of the forest. Some people in the Lands Between are chosen by the Two Fingers (messengers serving the Greater Will) to be Empyrean, a person who can become the God and leader of a new Order.

Stark's direwolves/Empyreans' shadowbound beasts:
- Eddard Stark's children have direwolves as pets, wolves larger than ponies and very protective. The Stark children even have a sort of telephatic link with their wolves. The Two Fingers give the Empyreans shadowbound beasts, anthropomorphic wolves that protect them but are also programmed to kill them if they commit treason. Also, one of the Stark children (Brandon) is a greenseer.

Weirwoods/Erdtree:
- The Weirwoods are sacred trees in the Old Gold religions (in fact these trees are the Old Gods themselves in this religion), and the souls of the dead children of the forest join these trees. The Erdtree is a sacred tree in the Golden Order religion, and the souls of the dead join this tree.

 

[Qawsedf234]

I think immortality type 8 is kinda reduntant if we already include type 1 since all the curse does is give him an ageless body so to speak, it doesn't give him any other immortalities so just giving him a type 1 is enough.

Type 8 is a requirement since he's immortal through the curse.

4-A Fire Giant is eeeh. Didn't Marika kill their Fell God? And its pretty narratively clear that he's not meant to be like, the strongest Fire Giant around or on the level of Marika.

I put him there based on the previous suggested canon chain. Based on Gideon the order of events for the Tarnished is Haligtree -> Malenia -> Mohgywn Palace -> Mohg -> Fire Giant Forge -> Farum Azula.

With the DLC out the easiest point to place it is in between Mohg and the Forge. But if we want to just scale to Fire Giant above other Rememberance Bosses that's fine.

 

[ArkhamDC06]

Type 8 is a requirement since he's immortal through the curse.


I put him there based on the previous suggested canon chain. Based on Gideon the order of events for the Tarnished is Haligtree -> Malenia -> Mohgywn Palace -> Mohg -> Fire Giant Forge -> Farum Azula.

With the DLC out the easiest point to place it is in between Mohg and the Forge. But if we want to just scale to Fire Giant above other Rememberance Bosses that's fine.

I'd say the Giant is probably above the likes of the Dancing Lion and Putrescent Knight at least. Maybe Rellana but I have doubts. Midra, Bayle, Metyr, Romina, Messmer, Miquella and Golem Radahn are above to me though.

Question is, where would we put Leda and co? Canonically, they're fought after Romina and Messmer but I don't think they can compare

 

[Qawsedf234]

If that calc is correct then yeah I'd say putting it in a blog to get it accepted would be worth it.

Alright, I made it. Unsure if anyone scales to it other than the Fire Giant but its something.

 

[SilentLyfe]

Spoiler: Final Boss

So it’s been two weeks since the DLC dropped and I decided to look around on discussion of the bosses. It seems though that a lot of people were disappointed with the final boss, not just from a difficulty standpoint but also from a lore one as well. Many expressed how they didn’t want to face Radahn again and wanted someone like Godwyn.

I mean I get it. The base game did show Miquella had more of a connection to Godwyn than Radahn and the Land of Shadows was stated as being the place all manners of death washed up. But I don’t think it’d have worked without breaking the lore of the game and messing up Fia’s questline.

What about you guys? Were you satisfied with the final boss being Radahn? Or would you have preferred Godwyn of even someone else like the Gloam Eyed Queen?

 

[Qawsedf234]

Spoiler: Final Boss

So it’s been two weeks since the DLC dropped and I decided to look around on discussion of the bosses. It seems though that a lot of people were disappointed with the final boss, not just from a difficulty standpoint but also from a lore one as well. Many expressed how they didn’t want to face Radahn again and wanted someone like Godwyn.

I mean I get it. The base game did show Miquella had more of a connection to Godwyn than Radahn and the Land of Shadows was stated as being the place all manners of death washed up. But I don’t think it’d have worked without breaking the lore of the game and messing up Fia’s questline.

What about you guys? Were you satisfied with the final boss being Radahn? Or would you have preferred Godwyn of even someone else like the Gloam Eyed Queen?

Spoiler: Final Boss

Overall while it is out of left field (unless you like make some weirdly extreme logical leap with the Prattling Pratte or a weird head canon ship), I didn't mind the fight or the lore shake up from it (though Miquella isn't as bad as the meme has become imo).

For the other options:

• Godwyn, like you said, already had his story deeply tied with Fia. I don't see an option of involving him without messing with that entire questline. Additionally Miquella just wanted to kill Godwyn and the rest of his Soulless Demigod kin to prevent them from living in a terrible state of unlife. Ignoring Radahn I wouldn't think that Miquella would want to make him his consort
• For the GEQ, while I do enjoy the fan theories with her, to be honest feels like a case of fans liking something more than the creators in my view. I think she was just a cool backstory to explain some stuff and FromSoft never really intended to ever delve deeper into who/what she is.

Personally, I would've preferred something like this or this as a final boss, where we would've fought a blood corrupted adult form of Miquella rather than what we got. Since Radahn coming back sorta takes the wind out of his sails imo.

 

[SilentLyfe]

Spoiler: Final Boss

Overall while it is out of left field (unless you like make some weirdly extreme logical leap with the Prattling Pratte or a weird head canon ship), I didn't mind the fight or the lore shake up from it (though Miquella isn't as bad as the meme has become imo).

For the other options:

• Godwyn, like you said, already had his story deeply tied with Fia. I don't see an option of involving him without messing with that entire questline. Additionally Miquella just wanted to kill Godwyn and the rest of his Soulless Demigod kin to prevent them from living in a terrible state of unlife. Ignoring Radahn I wouldn't think that Miquella would want to make him his consort
• For the GEQ, while I do enjoy the fan theories with her, to be honest feels like a case of fans liking something more than the creators in my view. I think she was just a cool backstory to explain some stuff and FromSoft never really intended to ever delve deeper into who/what she is.

Personally, I would've preferred something like this or this as a final boss, where we would've fought a blood corrupted adult form of Miquella rather than what we got. Since Radahn coming back sorta takes the wind out of his sails imo.

Spoiler: Final Boss

Yeah. Like we saw what he was capable of during the fight, with the whole light beams and light speed attacks. Instead of riding on Radahn’s shoulders, have him do it himself. Maybe even fight similar to Malenia since they’re twins and could have learned from her.

 

[Ser_Hakim_Dayne]

Alright, I made it. Unsure if anyone scales to it other than the Fire Giant but its something.

What about lift the giant crusher and fight with it btw?
It doesn't concern any characters in the game iirc and it's probably below Class M, but we know that the men during the War against the Giants were stronger than those today because they could use the crusher against the Fire Giants. That means the average man at the start of the Erdtree era (and before) had a big LS

 

[ArkhamDC06]

Spoiler: Final Boss

Overall while it is out of left field (unless you like make some weirdly extreme logical leap with the Prattling Pratte or a weird head canon ship), I didn't mind the fight or the lore shake up from it (though Miquella isn't as bad as the meme has become imo).

For the other options:

• Godwyn, like you said, already had his story deeply tied with Fia. I don't see an option of involving him without messing with that entire questline. Additionally Miquella just wanted to kill Godwyn and the rest of his Soulless Demigod kin to prevent them from living in a terrible state of unlife. Ignoring Radahn I wouldn't think that Miquella would want to make him his consort
• For the GEQ, while I do enjoy the fan theories with her, to be honest feels like a case of fans liking something more than the creators in my view. I think she was just a cool backstory to explain some stuff and FromSoft never really intended to ever delve deeper into who/what she is.

Personally, I would've preferred something like this or this as a final boss, where we would've fought a blood corrupted adult form of Miquella rather than what we got. Since Radahn coming back sorta takes the wind out of his sails imo.

Same thing. I had that idea that we would fight a corrupted Miquella that had been transformed by the Formless Mother and the reason Mohg had abducted him was because the Mother promised him he would become her Lord, whereas in truth she wanted Miquella all along and used Mohg to get her hands on him and turn him into her true vassal

 

[Qawsedf234]

I saw a video about Godwyn. Basically, if I'm understanding it right, I misunderstood what the Fia questline was. She used the second Deathmark to kill Godwyn's body, giving him a true death, and then remade him into the Mending Rune of the Death-Prince. This combined with the Smithing Talisman in the DLC

A talisman depicting an ancient smithing hammer. Inscribed with a smithscript. Enhances weapon-throwing attacks. In ancient times, smithing was a divine act, and blacksmiths interpreted the script they perceived in the wrinkles of molten steel to imbue weapons with souls.

Confirms that Runes/Scripts are souls or energy. So like, by completing Fia's quest Godwyn is actually dead-dead. His corpse killed with Ranni's Deathmark and he was reborn as a Mending Rune.

 

[SilentLyfe]

I saw a video about Godwyn. Basically, if I'm understanding it right, I misunderstood what the Fia questline was. She used the second Deathmark to kill Godwyn's body, giving him a true death, and then remade him into the Mending Rune of the Death-Prince. This combined with the Smithing Talisman in the DLC

Confirms that Runes/Scripts are souls or energy. So like, by completing Fia's quest Godwyn is actually dead-dead. His corpse killed with Ranni's Deathmark and he was reborn as a Mending Rune.

Yeah that makes sense. I mean Fromsoft have always used souls as a form of power so it’d make sense that they’d continue that with Runes being souls as well.

Also nice to see FatBrett. He makes great videos.