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Elden Ring General Discussion

Gloam Eyed Queen is so weird cause what do you mean there was an Empyrean with a cult of god killers, who once held Destined Death, and we don't know their names or what they looked like at all. I could buy her being exiled to the Land of Shadows even so the fact we never fight her is weird.
 
Planck69 said:
Gloam Eyed Queen is so weird cause what do you mean there was an Empyrean with a cult of god killers, who once held Destined Death, and we don't know their names or what they looked like at all. I could buy her being exiled to the Land of Shadows even so the fact we never fight her is weird.
Click to expand...
hence why a DLC around Melin- I mean the Gloam eyed queen is gonna be interesting not only because it will expand on destined death and godwyn but also her whole deal and why that whole situation went down like it did.
 
The fact that Metyr, the Mother of Fingers predates the Elden Beast and was abandoned that long ago is interesting to me. Makes you wonder just how much of the Golden Order is the Greater Will's doing and how much is just the edicts of what the Elden Beast considers "Order" mixed with Marika's biases, like against the Omen due to her history with the hornsent.

Actually, with Placidusax being a past Lord and Farum having an older Elden Ring, just how long ago did Metyr and the Beast land?
 
Planck69 said:
The fact that Metyr, the Mother of Fingers predates the Elden Beast and was abandoned that long ago is interesting to me. Makes you wonder just how much of the Golden Order is the Greater Will's doing and how much is just the edicts of what the Elden Beast considers "Order" mixed with Marika's biases, like against the Omen due to her history with the hornsent.

Actually, with Placidusax being a past Lord and Farum having an older Elden Ring, just how long ago did Metyr and the Beast land?
Click to expand...
For the former the narration at tbe statt of the game says the Greater Will has abandoned the world. So its possible that Metyr was broken around the shattering with the Fingerslayer Blade by the Nox.

For the second one, a theory i saw was that Metyr added fingers to the crucible. Which is how the Beastmen arose and considering their hands to be divine.
 
Qawsedf234 said:
For the former the narration at tbe statt of the game says the Greater Will has abandoned the world. So its possible that Metyr was broken around the shattering with the Fingerslayer Blade by the Nox.

For the second one, a theory i saw was that Metyr added fingers to the crucible. Which is how the Beastmen arose and considering their hands to be divine.
Click to expand...
Personally I think that this happened but not that late in time. Ymir implied that Metyr was broken from the get-go, hence the Fingers were corrupted as well. Perhaps the Nox did use the blade on her when she landed.

The DLC made the timeline of the Lands Between extremely dense and tight now that I think about it. Messmer interacted with Radhan even and was an elder brother to him. Messmer would've had to have been purging hornsent at the same time Radagon was fighting Liurnia.

As for the latter, that would make a lot of sense. Speaking of the Beastmen and Farum Azula, the DLC made me realize that whatever god was fled might've been one the way Marika and Miquella are, a sort of Dragon Empyrean rather than an Outer God like I once thought.
 
Planck69 said:
Personally I think that this happened but not that late in time. Ymir implied that Metyr was broken from the get-go, hence the Fingers were corrupted as well. Perhaps the Nox did use the blade on her when she landed.

The DLC made the timeline of the Lands Between extremely dense and tight now that I think about it. Messmer interacted with Radhan even and was an elder brother to him. Messmer would've had to have been purging hornsent at the same time Radagon was fighting Liurnia.

As for the latter, that would make a lot of sense. Speaking of the Beastmen and Farum Azula, the DLC made me realize that whatever god was fled might've been one the way Marika and Miquella are, a sort of Dragon Empyrean rather than an Outer God like I once thought.
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Tbf Ymir is also insane and hates Metyr for not being a good mother. We do know that she received messages until she got broken. So presumably whenever that happened is also around the time the GW dipped out.

For the timeline, yeah. Marika's empire seems like it last for like 100-200 years maximum before everything imploded.
 
Actually, when was the Land of Shadows sealed? Godwyn's Death Knights could make their way there after he had been turned into a cadaver cancer.
 
Planck69 said:
Actually, when was the Land of Shadows sealed? Godwyn's Death Knights could make their way there after he had been turned into a cadaver cancer.
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You have two options. It was either sealed when the Skadoo Tree was formed with the Erdtree or Marika sealed it post-Crusade. Though either way the Death Knights would only be there post-sealing.
 
Qawsedf234 said:
Tbf Ymir is also insane and hates Metyr for not being a good mother. We do know that she received messages until she got broken. So presumably whenever that happened is also around the time the GW dipped out.

For the timeline, yeah. Marika's empire seems like it last for like 100-200 years maximum before everything imploded.
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oh no no no, GRRM himself said he was working on a 5 THOUSAND year timeline around the golden order with the backstory of the hornsent and what not, so the golden order has been going for around 1k years at least.
 
Sir_sun_man said:
oh no no no, GRRM himself said he was working on a 5 THOUSAND year timeline
Click to expand...
GRRM didn't say that though. To quote Polygon
“Elden Ring was going to take place in, let’s say the present of their game universe. But what they wanted me to write was what happened like 5,000 years before that,” he said. “So I went back and wrote a history of what happened 5,000 years before the current game, and who all the characters were and who was killing each other and what powers they had. They had these runes that were at the center of the game, and the rune got split into many pieces, and that’s what screwed up the world. I laid all that out.”
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If anything this is suggesting that either Placidusax to Elden Ring is 5,000 years or the Shattering was 5,000 year ago. Either way he's not talking about the GO.
 
Sir_sun_man said:
we need a godwyn DLC i swear to god, or hell a gloom eyed queen one where godwyn's whole deal is expanded upon.
Click to expand...

Been seeing a lot of discussion online on how people were disappointed that the final boss was Radahn and not Godwyn. That Miquella had more of a connection to Godwyn shown in the base game than Radahn and with the whole Land of Shadows being the place all manners of death wash up.

Which I get. I kinda would have preferred him too. But I wonder how they’d have done so without breaking the lore of the game and messing up Fia’s questline since he’s supposed to be dead dead due to the Rune of Death.
 
Qawsedf234 said:
GRRM didn't say that though. To quote Polygon

If anything this is suggesting that either Placidusax to Elden Ring is 5,000 years or the Shattering was 5,000 year ago. Either way he's not talking about the GO.
Click to expand...
Or the very beginning of the universe to the base game is 5k years, which is the most likely because GRRM wrote the whole worldbuilding.
 
Qawsedf234 said:
GRRM didn't say that though. To quote Polygon

If anything this is suggesting that either Placidusax to Elden Ring is 5,000 years or the Shattering was 5,000 year ago. Either way he's not talking about the GO.
Click to expand...
Shattering to present time being 5,000 years makes more sense to me, ngl. I feel like Placidusax's reign was far earlier.
 
Well the Sub-Rel end was accepted. So for God-Tier characters (Tarnished, Godfrey, Radagon, Marika, Elden Beast, Maliketh, debatably some other tarnished like Gideon or Bernahl, maybe Placidusax, Radahn, and Miquella) their speeds would be "X movement speed, Sub-Relativistic+ Combat Speed" with three characters having "SoL with Miquella's light magic".
 
Also as a question I guess, where exactly are we putting enemies for the DLC scaling wise? For the base game we basically just used region scaling and boss logic. So it went
  • Fallingstar Beast < Godrick / Godefroy < Rennala
  • Then after that it was Radahn scaling. So Rot Radahn (7-A, High 4-C) < Morgott ~ Mohg ~ Rykard < Malenia ~ Prime Radahn < Goddess Malenia ~ Gideon ~ Fire Giant etc
  • Then we had back scaling from the Elden Beast. So Elden Beast (4-A) ≥ Radagon = Marika ~ Godfry ~ Maliketh
  • But we still have missing notable people like Placidusax for the scaling
With the DLC though we know that Mohg and Radahn are required to be defeated, so the bosses are at least 7-A to High 4-C. But I'm not sure how to handle the 4-A scaling. The final boss is straight forward since its basically just Spoiler = Marika scaling which makes them 4-A. But I don't know how that'd backscale to other bosses or effect other scaling.

I guess this is my idea: Gideon's dialouge implies a canon order of events:
After reaching Miquella's Haligtree

  • Ahh, so the secret medallion led you to the land of the Haligtree?
    I'd expect to find Malenia there. She who fought Radahn to a standstill.
    Well, if the scarlet rot hasn't eaten her away completely.
    But...with the Haligtree as it is... I suppose Miquella must already be...
    Ah, my apologies. Lost myself, for a moment there.
    The information you've shared is of great value. As promised, your reward:
    A secret rite known only to me.
    You are a true fellow. All I ask is that you remain constant.
After defeating Malenia, Blade of Miquella

  • So. The Haligtree, now but a husk... I heard speculation Miquella embedded himself in the Haligtree,
    but before he could finish, someone cut the tree open and absconded with his infant form.
    Indeed, it seems those words held weight. How vexing. That the All-knowing didn't have the full story...
    Perhaps the Queen's sorrow was justified... Ah, my apologies. Lost myself, for a moment there.
    The information you've shared is of great value. As promised, your reward:
    A secret rite known only to me.
    You are a true fellow. All I ask is that you remain constant.
After reaching Mohgwyn Dynasty Mausoleum

  • Oh, so that's where the so-called Lord of Blood was hiding himself eh.
    A fitting little squat for that deluded maniac to bleat about the revival of his precious dynasty, while he turns our fellow Tarnished into Bloody Fingers.
    Let him stay there. That way, his delusions will remain as the are - distant and unattainable.
    But perhaps it's worth looking into... If what I've heard is right, then maybe...
    Ah, my apologies. Lost myself, for a moment there.
    The information you've shared is of great value. As promised, your reward:
    A secret rite known only to me.
    You are a true fellow. All I ask is that you remain constant.
After defeating Mohg, Lord of Blood

  • Ahh, I see! So Miquella was with the Lord of Blood after all! That is some fine intelligence indeed!
    With it, the final clue has been brought into the light.
    One of the last few pieces the Roundtable-- I need, to put everything together.
    As promised, allow me to impart to you the last of the secret rites known only to me.
  • Well I wonder what comes next...
    If he continues his slumber within the cocoon, all will be well.
    But perhaps it would be safer to destroy it.
    Miquella is the one thing that remains a mystery to me...
After the cutscene at the Forge of the Giants
  • You...burned the Erdtree, didn't you? Then the Roundtable is soon to follow. Ah, no need to fret about that.
    The Roundtable Hold served to put a Tarnished upon the throne of Elden Lord.
    And if the Erdtree needed to burn for that to happen, then the Roundtable must go as well.
  • I'll stay at the Roundtable, for a time.
    I must learn all that can be taken from this place, and sear it into my memory.
    How could I call myself the All-Knowing if I did any less?
  • The pursuit of knowledge is without end, for knowledge is never a thing complete.
    Thus, I maintain the mantle of All-Knowing.
    Perhaps the same could be said about guidance.
    Who's to say whether we'll remain who we are, once the fight is finished?
    What do you think, as one who aspires to become Elden Lord?
Click to expand...
So we have a canon chain of events in the base game:
  • Tarnished makes it to the Snowfield before lilting the Forge of Giants
  • Tarnished makes their way to the Haligtree and then fights Malenia, defeating her
  • Tarnished makes their way to Mohg's palace
  • Tarnished defeats Mohg and finds Miquella's body
  • Tarnished activates the Forge of Giants, resulting in Gideon going to talk with the Two Fingers (discovering how they are broken) and leaving the Hold
So my proposal for canon would be one of two things:
  • Haligtree -> Mohgwyn Palace -> DLC -> Fire Giant -> Farum Azula -> End Game
  • Haligtree -> Mohgwyn Palace -> Fire Giant -> DLC -> Farum Azula -> End Game
In my view based on Alexander's dialogue:
But that aside, you're certainly a force to be reckoned with, eh.
I doubt there's a single soul who could've handled that giant, other than you.
It was practically a god...
Of course I count myself, the great Alexander, among the many.
Click to expand...
It would be option one, since comparing it to a God is a rather extreme statement, especially since by this point Alexander has seen Radahn and possibly Rykard, along with a vast amount of other warriors and thinks none of them would stand a remote chance at beating the Fire Giant other than the Tarnished. So once the Tarnished finishes the DLC and approaches the final area, they move from "7-A, likely High 4-C" to "At least 7-A, likely 4-A".

With that in mind the scaling would basically go:
  • Tier 8 to High 7-C: Fallingstar Beast < Basic Tarnished < Adult Fallinstar Beast < Godrick < Rennala ~ Basic Spirit Ashes < Advanced Tarnished
  • Base Game 7-A, possibly High 4-C: Rot Radahn < Certain High End Tarnished like Okina/Vyke ~ Morgott ~ Mohg ~ Rykard < Malenia ~ Prime Radahn
  • At least 7-A, possibly High 4-C, potentially far higher: Gideon (Believes himself incomparably lower than a God) < Goddess Malenia < Messmer < Romina
  • At least 7-A, possibly 4-A: The Last Fire Giant < Dragonlord Placidusax ~ Bayle ~ Godfrey ~ Maliketh ≤ Marika/Radagon ~ DLC Boss < Elden Beast
Some open items would be:
  • Where would we put the Dancing Lion, Rellana, Gaius, Metyr, the Scadutree Avatar, Midra and the Putrescent Knight on the chain?
  • What do we do with Bernahl if a profile is ever made?

Anyways what is everyone's thoughts on the above?
 
In terms of how events play out I def agree with option 1, Haligtree to Mohgywn Palace to DLC to Fire Giant / Endgame makes the most sense. Can't see the Tarnished beating the Fire Giant and then just, going back to Mohgs crib for no real reason and then being greeted by Leda telling them to dimension hop to the land of shadow, given Alexanders dialogue on top of that it just seems to make more sense we go fight the Fire Giant after the DLC. Plus given how strong the final boss of the DLC is it makes sense why the Tarnished jumps up so suddenly to beat the god tiers after going through the events of Shadow of the Erdtree.

Qawsedf234 said:
With that in mind the scaling would basically go:
  • Tier 8 to High 7-C: Fallingstar Beast < Basic Tarnished < Adult Fallinstar Beast < Godrick < Rennala ~ Basic Spirit Ashes < Advanced Tarnished
  • Base Game 7-A, possibly High 4-C: Rot Radahn < Certain High End Tarnished like Okina/Vyke ~ Morgott ~ Mohg ~ Rykard < Malenia ~ Prime Radahn
  • At least 7-A, possibly High 4-C, potentially far higher: Gideon (Believes himself incomparably lower than a God) < Goddess Malenia < Messmer < Romina
  • At least 7-A, possibly 4-A: The Last Fire Giant < Dragonlord Placidusax ~ Bayle ~ Godfrey ~ Maliketh ≤ Marika/Radagon ~ DLC Boss < Elden Beast
Click to expand...
Yeah this makes sense, although what are we gonna say when people just asking why Prime Radahn and Malenia don't scale to the 4-A high end given what is essentially prime Radahn makes up phase 1 of the final boss in the DLC. We just putting a note that lore wise he likely gets stomped by the Tarnished phase 1 before tricky miq amps him for phase 2?

Qawsedf234 said:
Some open items would be:
  • Where would we put the Dancing Lion, Rellana, Gaius, Metyr, the Scadutree Avatar, Midra and the Putrescent Knight on the chain?
  • What do we do with Bernahl if a profile is ever made?
Click to expand...
Yeah those are tricky, Rellana I can see ranking in the same general range as Morgott and Mohg given her status as Messmers sword and the main obstacle blocking the Tarnished from reaching the altus where Messmers shadow keep is but even then that's still more of a "should be on their level" than a "is on their level" so ehhhh. Midra tbh I can see ranking pretty high, sure he's not a full on lord of frenized flame but he seems way closer to it than the Tarnished can be should they be touched by the 3 fingers. Not full on 4-A but I can see him being in the same general tier as Goddess Malenia and Messmer.

Not entirely sure about the others, Dancing Lion is a mandatory boss and gets decently hyped up (Plus it's likely fought near the start of the DLC instead of the very end just before entering Enir-Ilim so I can see it being roughly comparable to Mohg and others on that level, but still wayyyy below Messmer given how easily the trailers showed him dealing with many of them.

Honestly no idea with Bernahl, he shows up outta nowhere in Farum Azula, you kill him and then get the Blasphemous Claw without much fanfare. I get that the implication is that he's there to challange Maliketh given he has the claw on him, but it's implied he's weaker than Rykard given that Tannith nevers seems to consider sending him to Rykard to be devoured like she does us (And unless I'm forgetting something she sends us because she believes the Tarnisheds strength will be a great addition to Rykards after eating us), and the claw counters Destined Death sure but that's the claw itself, not like he'd need to be comparable to Maliketh himself for it to work and block his death attacks. For all we know he'd get rolled by Gurranq.
 
Dust_Collector said:
Yeah this makes sense, although what are we gonna say when people just asking why Prime Radahn and Malenia don't scale to the 4-A high end given what is essentially prime Radahn makes up phase 1 of the final boss in the DLC. We just putting a note that lore wise he likely gets stomped by the Tarnished phase 1 before tricky miq amps him for phase 2?
Click to expand...
I would say we either do a note or for "Potentially much higher" we could change to "Potentially 4-A". The former would just be that the Tarnished defeats Radahn being perma-boosted by his Husbando, which makes them fighting evenly pretty questionable. The second one would just be potentially scaling Rot God Malenia and Prime Radahn to God level.

EDIT: So for example the profiles would look like this:
  • Radahn: Rot (7-A, potentially High 4-C) | Prime (At least 7-A, High 4-C, potentially 4-A) | Boosted (At least 7-A, possibly 4-A)
  • Malenia: Base (7-A, possibly High 4-C) | Goddess of Rot (7-A, possibly High 4-C, potentially 4-A)

 
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I think Metyr should be on the higher end of stuff personally. As a child of the Greater Will and one of it's first two creations I see no reason why we'd assume it isn't in the same ballpark as the Elden Beast. But I guess that's just my personal feelings and not objective truth.

Ultimately it's getting the High 4-C at least. But in terms of when the Tarnished realistically would fight it that's hard because it's completely optional. And i don't think there's dialogue that implies an order of events either. It's kind of it's own self-contained thing and isn't really acknowledged by others.
 
Qawsedf234 said:
I did the math using that idea as a foundation and the most I got was 19.88% lightspeed.

So like I said you're not getting to SoL. Radahn is just way larger than the Tarnished, so he'll always cover to much distance to get a FTL rating in comparison to the player.
Click to expand...
hey wanted to ask if it would be possible to use these as the actual scale images.

2024-07-04_035859.png
2024-07-04_035920.png


2024-07-04_035907.png
2024-07-04_035929.png

2024-07-04_040201.png
2024-07-04_040206.png


because it is possible to do the deflects shown in the vid with the martial art weapon that I have on the character in the image and the distance and actual degrees to which the character has to move their arms to deflect the attacks is a lot more clear.
 
Sir_sun_man said:
wanted to ask if it would be possible to use these as the actual scale images
Click to expand...
You'd need to clip perfect guarding it for it to be used as calc evidence. The most it'd do though is maybe bump it to entire arm 45 degrees though.
 
Qawsedf234 said:
Malenia ~ Prime Radahn
Click to expand...
Prime Radahn > Malenia in raw strength


Qawsedf234 said:
But I'm not sure how to handle the 4-A scaling. The final boss is straight forward since its basically just Spoiler = Marika scaling which makes them 4-A. But I don't know how that'd backscale to other bosses or effect other scaling.
Click to expand...
I think only the Gods (Marika, Miquella, Post-Merging Radagon), the Elden Beast and the Tarnished should be 4-A.
 
Another patch dropped. Just bug fixes and adjustments to weapons. They also fixed the Perfume Bottles so anyone using the Lightning Perfume Ash of War exploit to shred bosses is out of luck now.

 
Ser_Hakim_Dayne said:
Prime Radahn > Malenia in raw strength
Click to expand...
According to Millicent once Malenia abandoned her pride she matched Radahn. The only difference at that point was Radahn expending energy on holding the stars and that seemingly just doesn't take a notable fraction of his power.

Ser_Hakim_Dayne said:
think only the Gods (Marika, Miquella, Post-Merging Radagon), the Elden Beast and the Tarnished should be 4-A.
Click to expand...
The scaling doesn't work when the PC is more or less forced to fight them all back to back in a boss rush. If the DLC boss is 4-A that means all of Farum Azula's bosses also have to be 4-A.
 
Stolp said:
Does anyone know where Messmer ranks inverse wise? I have no idea
Click to expand...
Like if you wanted to hype him up he has two things going for him:
  • He is Marika's first born
  • He is her only child that she attempted to nerf due to his power
The former probably doesn't mean much, but the latter means that his true power was considered more dangerous than Malenia's Rot potential by Marika.
 
Do we have any scaling for the Divine Beast Dancing Lions? We only really know that Messmer low-diffed a bunch of them.
 
Dude why is this DLC so hard??? Any NPC makes me feel very powerless. I was having a good time playing in the main game

Btw it wasn't nice to see a few spoilers by mistake 🫠
 
Qawsedf234 said:
Like if you wanted to hype him up he has two things going for him:
  • He is Marika's first born
  • He is her only child that she attempted to nerf due to his power
The former probably doesn't mean much, but the latter means that his true power was considered more dangerous than Malenia's Rot potential by Marika.
Click to expand...
That's a good point
 
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