Duel of the Deuteragonists Vol. 2: Moss vs Sauce

[Kachon123]

Let’s be honest, Zoro doesn’t have a response to Substitution Jutsu, let alone other defensive Jutsu.

Wrong. Zoro literally fought Pica, who had similar abilities and was able to predict his location with Kenbun + attack accordingly.

Zoro specifically has shown to do this several times in his fight with Pica.

Zoro isn't doing shit when his every move is already know by Sasuke here. Sorry but it doesn’t matter how good CoO is in OP. We’ve been over this. Both Sasuke and Zoro will know about every attack, every counter, every movement before they make it.

The issue with this is that in One Piece, proficiency levels of Kenbun is shown by how quickly you respond to something. Someone with superior Kenbun to someone else will always out-predict someone with lesser Kenbun not because they're seeing further into the future, but because they're seeing it before they do and can predict their responses even quicker.

Sasuke has no showings to be above basic Kenbun, while Zoro at this point does. In a battle of precog, Zoro would be the one who pick up on things quicker and will know how to respond to Sasuke's precog, while Sasuke would not have that luxury.

Ameno, Substitution, Susanoo or just simply basic evasion tactics deals with this. Also, Sasuke as them too~

Zoro with Haōshoku Infusion or Enma Unleashed would quite literally cut both Susano'o and Sasuke in half at the same time if he tries to defend with it. We already went over how Substitution and Ameno aren't going to be as helpful as you think.

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

Let’s be honest, Zoro doesn’t have a response to Substitution Jutsu, let alone other defensive Jutsu.

but he literally can tho, because he knows what he'll Substitution with... Observation haki is always sensing you no matter where you are even if you are in another dimension and then enable you to know their next moves before they even do anything

If i wanted to troll you, I could literally say Sasuke spams that Academy level jutsu and Zoro has no response to it, and it would still be valid.

Idk what you mean with that

Zoro isn't doing shit when his every move is already know by Sasuke here.

How...?

Sorry but it doesn’t matter how good CoO is in OP. We’ve been over this. Both Sasuke and Zoro will know about every attack, every counter, every movement before they make it.

Prove otherwise or retire the argument, it’s just noise at this point.

Too bad Saskue's prediction is analytical based, meaning he has to see what Zoro is doing for him to even try to know what zoro is doing

If you actually think obs Haki and sharingan are the same, you should first read the haki page and see the difference, you don't have to do anything and I'll be able to know your many moves in the future nearly at all times which I'll be even able to know the exact place without using any of my eyes or anything

Ameno, Substitution, Susanoo or just simply basic evasion tactics deals with this. Also, Sasuke as them too~

Not as good

Sasuke has them too~

Not as good, Zoro also gets faster and stronger mid battle

Yeah, ok. I’ll vote for Sasuke because his arsenal is better suited for creating openings and the OP supporters here haven’t provided a valid counter to Sasuke’s defensive counters of Zoro’s offensive arsenal.

Helluva Bias…

Literally says you... I know and have watched Naruto, It's one of the best animes with me liking it more than any new gen from what I've seen... While you barely know anything about op

I'm trying to actually teach you and give you Scans/information with how Sasuke's abilities will get countered... Otherwise if I was biased and not try to go after the truth I would've just attacked your argument without providing anything with any scans

 

[NeoKingOfLight]

If the flames aren't burning Zoro, they'd just stay there and do nothing to him.

Tell me you don’t understand thermodynamics or how a body works with applied heat, without telling me you don’t understand thermodynamics or how a body works with applied heat.

Zoro can easily block Kagetsuchi with his blades.

If the flame is on his body, no, he can’t…

Zoro has higher durability and AP when using Haōshoku Infusion or Enma Unleashed. Honestly, even Zoro's normal Busōshoku Haki could probably defend against Kagetsuchi. Zoro's normal Busōshoku Haki is only 2.64x weaker than Kagetsuchi, and we know Busōshoku grants piercing and slashing resistance, so much so that someone with a weaker durability amp than Zoro could defend against attacks that were 6x stronger than him.

[Insert Heavy Sigh]

Ok, fam.

 

[Kachon123]

If the flame is on his body, no, he can’t…

Sasuke created the Amaterasu on his hand and then used flame control to move the fire around. He did not spontaneously combust anything. The anime supports this. Are there any other examples of spontaneous combustion for Amaterasu?

 

[Eseseso]

Could someone list the arguments/wincons of each side?

 

[Kachon123]

Could someone list the arguments/wincons of each side?

Sasuke:
Higher AP and durability initially
Versatility
Teleportation
Shadow Clones
Better Stamina than En-Ō Zoro

Zoro:
Superior precog
Higher AP with Haōshoku Infusion, Enma Unleashed, or En-Ō
Range and AoE
Durability Negating attacks
Resists Sasuke's Hax abilities with Haki
Can cut Fire Styles and Amaterasu with Flame Rend

 

[Eseseso]

Sasuke:
Higher AP and durability initially
Versatility
Teleportation
Shadow Clones
Better Stamina than En-Ō Zoro

Zoro:
Superior precog
Higher AP with Haōshoku Infusion, Enma Unleashed, or En-Ō
Range and AoE
Durability Negating attacks
Resists Sasuke's Hax abilities with Haki
Can cut Fire Styles and Amaterasu with Flame Rend

Then I vote Zoro, his absurd endurance combined with his boosts giving him higher power will let him power through and beat down Sasuke, plus his range and AiE can help keep Sasuke and his shadow clones at bay.

 

[ReaperAndBlues]

If the flame is on his body, no, he can’t…

Buso Emission blocks that + Kenbun will show Sasuke using it on him from the future and his mind. Amaterasu is practically moot because Zoro will read his mind and know what Sasuke is trying to do, and you seem to believe Zoro is stupid in that he will just let that happen. He will use Buso emission to block the flames because his own heat resistance is stronger than those flames

 

[Kidkinsey]

This isn't true.

Any fire attack is useless against Zoro due to his heat resistance and Flame Rend.

Zoro would see these tactics coming from a mile away with BOAT and Kenbun. He can also very easily take out any meteors with a single ranges slash due to his range.

By time limit I'm referring to him not being able to stay on KOH for long periods due to the haki drain

Cutting fire or inferno style in half would still preoccupy him and give sasuke a opening to close the gap and go for a kill shot

Each one of sasukes meteors can be bigger then mountain ranges when was zoros range that crazy? As for seeing the tactics, sasuke fought somebody who can literally see what you're going to do then go in the past and replay the event, if he can deal with that zoro being able to momentarily see glimpes of the future isn't an issue.

 

[Kachon123]

By time limit I'm referring to him not being able to stay on KOH for long periods due to the haki drain

Zoro rarely uses En-Ō except for single attacks like Onigiri and Dragon Damnation. He can use Enma Unleashed and Haōshoku Infusion as long as he wants.

Cutting fire or inferno style in half would still preoccupy him and give sasuke a opening to close the gap and go for a kill shot

Kenbun is a thing.

Each one of sasukes meteors can be bigger then mountain ranges when was zoros range that crazy?

Since he cut 11 kilometers of rock in Wano.

As for seeing the tactics, sasuke fought somebody who can literally see what you're going to do then go in the past and replay the event, if he can deal with that zoro being able to momentarily see glimpes of the future isn't an issue.

Based on?

 

[ReaperAndBlues]

By time limit I'm referring to him not being able to stay on KOH for long periods due to the haki drain

En-Ō is a finisher, not something he spams. Zoro can control Enma just fine without the massive stamina drain.

Cutting fire or inferno style in half would still preoccupy him and give sasuke a opening to close the gap and go for a kill shot

That's a pretty standard tactic that he will know he's gonna use with Kenbun. If Sasuke gets in Zoro will just use Tatsumaki and back him off.

Each one of sasukes meteors can be bigger then mountain ranges when was zoros range that crazy?

What Kachon said about the 11 kilometer rock

As for seeing the tactics, sasuke fought somebody who can literally see what you're going to do then go in the past and replay the event

How does that translate exactly to Kenbun, also, scans.

if he can deal with that zoro being able to momentarily see glimpes of the future isn't an issue.

It will when Zoro can blitz people who can read his mind and see into the future. The Sharingan has never done anything on the level of basic Kenbun when it comes to prediction.

 

[SlendVeny]

Hypothetically, couldn't Sasuke copy a lot of Zoro's techniques?

 

[ReaperAndBlues]

Hypothetically, couldn't Sasuke copy a lot of Zoro's techniques?

Not Santoryū or Nittoryū. Plus, Zoro can also Copy Sasuke's sword skills like he did Flame Rend

 

[Kachon123]

Hypothetically, couldn't Sasuke copy a lot of Zoro's techniques?

The same goes the other way around.

 

[SlendVeny]

The same goes the other way around.

Yeah, but a lot of Sasuke's stuff is stuff Zoro wouldn't use, and I doubt that eye is closed because if a Rinnegan under there.

 

[Quibster]

Has Kirin been discussed at all? I'm not sure how relevant that is to Sasuke in this key, but willing to ask anyways.

Following for now.

 

[ReaperAndBlues]

Has Kirin been discussed at all? I'm not sure how relevant that is to Sasuke in this key, but willing to ask anyways.

No, but it also doesn't mean much since it's got one hell of a startup and Zoro can just move out of it's range. Plus this Sasuke has NEVER used Kirin to my knowledge.

 

[Nierre]

He used Kirin in the anime against Urashiki

 

[Ryuga21]

Ashura gg...

Zoro FRA

 

[Kidkinsey]

This reply is for the both of yall

Kenbun dosen't mean If zoro is preoccupied with sasukes attacks that sasuke can't get the drop on him, even If it alerts him he still has to actually deal with the attack. Sasuke shot a fireball that naruto had to block then teleported behind him and landed a chidori. The same thing is possible here

I'm no pixel scaler but no way that horn is bigger then a meteor. Especially multiple that sasuke can drop

It translates to kenbun because sasuke has experience with people who know his every move. It's possible to land a hit on a obs user especially if u have a kit like sasuke. I didn't see skypiea in a while but how did wyper land that dial attack on enel? He can read minds yet he was tagged during that arc. If by basic kenbun you sre reffering to enel levels the sharingan has undoubtedly done things on par if not better when it comes to dodging and countering.

 

[Quibster]

He used Kirin in the anime against Urashiki

I didn't even have to a research an episode. YouTube just blatantly show it lol

 

[ReaperAndBlues]

This reply is for the both of yall

Kenbun dosen't mean If zoro is preoccupied with sasukes attacks that sasuke can't get the drop on him, even If it alerts him he still has to actually deal with the attack. Sasuke shot a fireball that naruto had to block then teleported behind him and landed a chidori. The same thing is possible here

Naruto doesn't have anything close to Kenbun in terms of prediction. His danger sense wasn't even active since he was in base. So no, Zoro would be able to dodge that.

I'm no pixel scaler but no way that horn is bigger then a meteor. Especially multiple that sasuke can drop

The horn isn't, but the range is, especially since it's a dura neg ranged attack. Also abusing the meteors will run through his Chakra like hell.

It translates to kenbun because sasuke has experience with people who know his every move. It's possible to land a hit on a obs user especially if u have a kit like sasuke

Kenbun is better than the Sharingan, and Sasuke has never fought someone who knew what he was doing before he did it via reading his mind.

I didn't see skypiea in a while but how did wyper land that dial attack on enel? He can read minds yet he was tagged during that arc. If by basic kenbun you sre reffering to enel levels the sharingan has undoubtedly done things on par if not better when it comes to dodging and countering.

Zoro has far better Kenbun than Enel, also Enel is extremely arrogant is overeliant on it. Plus Zoro can move at extremely difficult angles and counter attacks while unconscious or even fully asleep. The Sharingan is nowhere close to that level of prediction

 

[Kachon123]

Kenbun dosen't mean If zoro is preoccupied with sasukes attacks that sasuke can't get the drop on him, even If it alerts him he still has to actually deal with the attack. Sasuke shot a fireball that naruto had to block then teleported behind him and landed a chidori. The same thing is possible here

Except it's not. Literally read his fight against the bounty hunters at Whiskey Peak.



This was all before both BOAT, Kenbunshoku Haki, and combat training with Mihawk. No level of surprise attacks, trickery, or teleportation will be able to catch Zoro off-guard. Especially not when his perception speed is amped so high that he would literally be able to see Sasuke in slow motion.

I'm no pixel scaler but no way that horn is bigger then a meteor. Especially multiple that sasuke can drop

It is. The island itself is over 57 kilometers tall.

It translates to kenbun because sasuke has experience with people who know his every move. It's possible to land a hit on a obs user especially if u have a kit like sasuke. I didn't see skypiea in a while but how did wyper land that dial attack on enel? He can read minds yet he was tagged during that arc. If by basic kenbun you sre reffering to enel levels the sharingan has undoubtedly done things on par if not better when it comes to dodging and countering.

Enel is not Zoro. Enel literally had a god complex, looking at everyone as inferiors. He every so many free shots just to make them hopeless, and one of those free shots just happened to use Seaprism. Luffy landed his first hit on Enel because he was completely shocked. We know Kenbun doesn't work in moments like that. Luffy literally got stomped and couldn't land a single hit after that. All the other hits he landed was because Enel either got outsmarted by Luffy putting his body on the line and using his superior LS, or outmatched by Luffy's creativity and raw strength.

Sharingan is absolutely not on part with even basic Kenbun in terms on precog, but when talking about Zoro's, which is far superior to even basic Kenbun, there's nothing Sasuke can do in the realms of predicting or attacking that would catch Zoro off-guard.

 

[SlendVeny]

I know it is, but what evidence puts Zoro's Kenbun better than Enel's?

(I'm mostly asking this ahead of time for upcoming arguments elsewhere)

 

[Kachon123]

I know it is, but what evidence puts Zoro's Kenbun better than Enel's?

Greater range = better Kenbun overall

Zoro and Law have relative Kenbun Haki, with Law being able to sense Luffy who was 18 kilometers away from him. This is a better range feat than Enel was able to pull off.

 

[SlendVeny]

Greater range = better Kenbun overall

Zoro and Law have relative Kenbun Haki, with Law being able to sense Luffy who was 18 kilometers away from him. This is a better range feat than Enel was able to pull off.

How big is Upper Yard?

 

[Kachon123]

How big is Upper Yard?

7 kilometers

 

[Bernkastelll]

Zoro FRA

 

[KaydeeX]

Voting Sasuke for net and testarossa reasons (still haven’t seen the haki thread)
Plus, won’t chibaku tensei do this?

 

[Kidkinsey]

Naruto was in SpSM when sasuke landed that attack. The point isn't that naruto can't react in normal circumstances it's that he was preoccupied by another one of sasukes attacks which gave him a opening which is what i think he can do here. Random bounty hunters that zoro scales above isn't the same as dealing with sasukes kit and iq. What prediction and countering feats does kenbun have that makes you guys say it CLEARS the sharingans? Don't just tell me "it reads minds" because If I also know exactly what my opponent is about to do that just means our methods are different.

The island may be that tall but he didn't cut the entire length of it just to and through the horn.

If luffys creativity aided him in tagging enel. Sasukes creativity could aid him as well. Let's not forget he's a strategic genius on top of having a kit that can deal with anything zoro can dish out.

 

[Kachon123]

Naruto was in SpSM when sasuke landed that attack. The point isn't that naruto can't react in normal circumstances it's that he was preoccupied by another one of sasukes attacks which gave him a opening which is what i think he can do here. Random bounty hunters that zoro scales above isn't the same as dealing with sasukes kit and iq. What prediction and countering feats does kenbun have that makes you guys say it CLEARS the sharingans? Don't just tell me "it reads minds" because If I also know exactly what my opponent is about to do that just means our methods are different.

It working on Naruto is an anti-feat for Naruto, not proof that it would work on Zoro. You need to prove why it would work on Kenbunshoku Haki when it was literally made for the purpose of dealing with tactics and attacks like that. You haven't done so. Your only argument that was even close to productive was the Enel one, which ended up being wrong FRA.

The island may be that tall but he didn't cut the entire length of it just to and through the horn.

What

If luffys creativity aided him in tagging enel. Sasukes creativity could aid him as well.

Except Luffy's creativity only helped due to his devil fruit and idiocy. Sasuke can't turn off his mind. Sasuke can't throw out perfectly random attacks. Again, Enel isn't Zoro. Enel kept using his Kenbun to sense the intent of Luffy's attacks, which is why he got tagged by attacks with no intent. If he simply moved using his danger sense and instinctive reaction, he would have dodged. That's why Zoro is superior to Enel's Kenbun. None of Sasuke's surprise attacks will be able to catch Zoro by surprise. Zoro would be actively reading Sasuke's mind, intent, and emotions. He'd actively be hyperaware of his surroundings and future surroundings. His Kenbun increases his reactions and perceptions to be able to view things in slow motion. You saying "Sasuke's iq and creativity will help him catch Zoro off-guard" without describing what that would entail and how he would counter Kenbun with it makes your claim hold absolutely 0 weight.

 

[ReaperAndBlues]

Naruto was in SpSM when sasuke landed that attack. The point isn't that naruto can't react in normal circumstances it's that he was preoccupied by another one of sasukes attacks which gave him a opening which is what i think he can do here. Random bounty hunters that zoro scales above isn't the same as dealing with sasukes kit and iq. What prediction and countering feats does kenbun have that makes you guys say it CLEARS the sharingans? Don't just tell me "it reads minds" because If I also know exactly what my opponent is about to do that just means our methods are different.

That whole feat was without Kenbun at all, just his normal spatial awareness. Naruto's danger sense is nowhere near the level of prediction Kenbun has. Zoro can also amp his reaction speed naturally, so Sasuke catching him completely off guard isn't happening when Zoro will know his plan. Kenbunshoku Haki gives the user a massive amount of visual range, as Kachon said, Zoro can see up to 14 kilometers with a full 360 degree range of motion. Kenbun users can counter attacks while inebriated, asleep, or unconcious by seeing into the future and reading the mind and emotion of the opponent. Zoro also has Goken, which is ANOTHER form of analytical prediction and info analysis. Plus, Zoro is a combat genius, he isn't getting fooled by something simple like that.

The island may be that tall but he didn't cut the entire length of it just to and through the horn.

With a dura neg slash. Zoro can easily cut a meteor.

If luffys creativity aided him in tagging enel. Sasukes creativity could aid him as well. Let's not forget he's a strategic genius on top of having a kit that can deal with anything zoro can dish out.

Again, Zoro is also a combat genius, actually, he's a greater genius than Sasuke, and has his own creativity to deal with Sasuke's kit. Anything Sasuke does Zoro will make adjustments to his fighting style and can develop new moves to counter them.

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

If luffys creativity aided him in tagging enel. Sasukes creativity could aid him as well. Let's not forget he's a strategic genius on top of having a kit that can deal with anything zoro can dish out.

Luffy at that time was many times faster than Enel… the only problem was that he couldn’t hit him because of his precog until he made it so that the attacks moved randomly and outpaced him

And his final attack basically blitzed him… so that was more speed than anything

The island may be that tall but he didn't cut the entire length of it just to and through the horn.

The horn length is currently around 37 km or something, which would make Zoro’s slash much higher than it currently is

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

Also Yee sasuke has no amount of speed amps or trickery to get Zoro to be off guarded, he can literally sense and see him at all times through objects and obs haki raises your perception speed more than a 100 times

Zoro with one sword can cut the meteor and still have the remaining other swords ready

Even pre timeskip Zoro with no obs haki, he was able to counter kaku who moves FTE and moved from behind him when they slashed

 

[SlendVeny]

obs haki raises your perception speed more than a 100 times

Sorry, Intermediate is 100?!

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

Sorry, Intermediate is 100?!

Nah it’s way higher

A child was able to perceive and react to enel while traveling though gold via obs haki before even Luffy was able to

It’s probably minimum 10 thousand of times or something (probably millions), 100 is just saying it’s over any normal speed amp

 

[KaydeeX]

A child was able to perceive and react to enel while traveling though gold via obs haki before even Luffy was able to

Definitely PIS, it’s funny how you can cook up something so absurd as a multiplier
Himawari was able to react to Delta beams, I guess we should scale her to the god tiers

Even pre timeskip Zoro with no obs haki, he was able to counter kaku who moves FTE and moved from behind him when they slash

Earlier in this thread you said it was analytical prediction. no?
Now it’s perception speed
Get your shit right lol

 

[Kachon123]

Definitely PIS, it’s funny how you can cook up something so absurd as a multiplier
Himawari was able to react to Delta beams, I guess we should scale her to the god tiers

Not plot induced stupidity. Aisa was using Kenbun in that moment to warn Luffy. Also, MonkeyofLife isn't actually proposing a Kenbun multiplier, he's just showing how much it can boost the user's perceptions.

Earlier in this thread you said it was analytical prediction. no?
Now it’s perception speed

He's literally using it at analytical prediction to say he will be aware of Sasuke. How did you interpret that as his saying it's a perception speed thing, especially when he literally said Kaku went FTE to him?

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

Earlier in this thread you said it was analytical prediction. no?
Now it’s perception speed
Get your shit right lol

What? Obs haki is perception speed amp which amps your senses, gives you a whole new sense… being able to sense you and is precog not analytical prediction plus more

Zoro himself also has multiple analytical prediction which he used pre timeskip

You need to get your shit right my guy

Obs haki isn’t only precog, remember that

 

[Mndks]

alright mol/kachon fra

sanji>both