Duel of the Deuteragonists Vol. 2: Moss vs Sauce

[SlendVeny]

you talking about goken..? Or the speed?

Because even pre timeskip zoro could use his goken with ranged slashes, what you mean..?

Yeah, that's a single attack against an IRON cloud. He isn't just spamming it right off the bat against humans with regular, non-swordproof human physiques.

 

[SlendVeny]

Yeah, that's a single attack against an IRON cloud. He isn't just spamming it right off the bat against humans with regular, non-swordproof human physiques.

Well, as regular as a literal god can be.

 

[Godernet]

But can't spam it also it seems

he can't spam hop between worlds, he can spam teleport a bit via swapping places with other things

 

[Nierre]

But can't spam it also it seems

im sure he can spam his swap technique, but he probably wont unless he has to because his chakra reserves aren't high like Naruto's.

If he's in a situation where he needs to spam it, he'll likely just make some space to re-evaluate the situation and the best way to go about it. Also, is Susanoo restricted here? I feel like if it gets to the point where he needs to "teleport-spam", he'll likely just pull out Susanoo.

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

Yeah, that's a single attack against an IRON cloud. He isn't just spamming it right off the bat against humans with regular, non-swordproof human physiques.

I think bro has used it against literally every opponent.. What you on about..?

Post timeskip he has it active nearly at all times and also spams it

 

[SlendVeny]

I think bro has used it against literally every opponent.. What you on about..?

Post timeskip he has it active nearly at all times and also spams it

Are there examples where he's using Goken on people who don't have some kind of special gear or physique?

 

[Kachon123]

Yeah, that's a single attack against an IRON cloud. He isn't just spamming it right off the bat against humans with regular, non-swordproof human physiques.

He does that, all the time It's literally his starting move 90% of the time:



In fact, Zoro specifically trained so that he can use Goken in any of his attacks whenever he wants

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

Are there examples where he's using Goken on people who don't have some kind of special gear or physique?

Yes... Apoo, Kuma (he assumed he was human), I think killer? idk, Hody plus more

Why wouldn't he even use goken...? Especially when he's using it at nearly all times

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

Ohh didn't know this was stated in the manga

 

[Kachon123]

Are there examples where he's using Goken on people who don't have some kind of special gear or physique?

 

[ReaperAndBlues]

I take a nap and then we hit 5 pages, wtf?

 

[NeoKingOfLight]

Sasuke isn’t getting caught in Zoro’s Twister. This is a battle with equalized base speed and both individuals have blitz level amps they can stack on top. Both individuals have pre-cog. Zoro isn’t catching Sasuke by surprise with anything.

Going by what KT said, if true, Zoro still can’t null Sasuke’s supportive jutsu. Whatever Sasuke can’t block or repel physically or with Susanoo, or normally evade, he has Ameno Teleportation or Substitution (Which can be abused to High Hell).

Zoro isn’t hitting Sasuke with anything that he doesn’t have a response for. Not to mention, Sasuke isn’t even exclusively a sword fighter. He still has other taijutsu skill stacked on top. Nobody has concede skill to Zoro. I stand by what I said earlier in regard to skill and nothing anyone has posted has moved the line on that.

What is Zoro’s Response to:

1. Shadow Clones
2. Amateratsu’s Cutting Potency (Kagetsuchi)
3. Sasuke’s Lightning Jutsu Cutting/Piercing Potency (Senbon, Chidori, True Spear)
4. Susanoo Arrows

Yes, taking into account what KT said, sure, we say Zoro ignores the burning of Ama and the Electrocution of Sasuke’s Raiton, but they also still have unrelated AP components to the effects that Haki gives Immunity to (And in Regards to Ama, Zoro only has Immunity so long as he maintains CoA, correct? He’s immune to the burning but not dispersing the flames either. Let me know if my thoughts on this are wrong.

With Clones, I think Sasuke just straight up overwhelms Zoro as they are equally strong as the main body and share the same abilities.

 

[Nierre]

Sasuke doesn't use clones in character though, I doubt he'll use em. Also, dura wise they're incredibly frail. Zoro would only need one hit to take it out, which would harm Sasuke more than help, as clones take a lot of chakra for characters who aren't Naruto or Boruto. And for someone like Sasuke who relies on abilities that take a toll on his chakra (Susanoo, Teleporting, Amaterasu etc), he's smart enough to know not to use clones.

 

[Kachon123]

What is Zoro’s Response to:

1. Shadow Clones

Haōshoku wave or simply use a large AoE attack such as Tatsumaki.

1. Amateratsu’s Cutting Potency (Kagetsuchi)
2. Sasuke’s Lightning Jutsu Cutting/Piercing Potency (Senbon, Chidori, True Spear)
3. Susanoo Arrows

Zoro has superior AP, Striking Strength, and Durability when using Haōshoku Infusion. He can very easily just deflect these attacks.

but they also still have unrelated AP components to the effects that Haki gives Immunity to

Rad above.

And in Regards to Ama, Zoro only has Immunity so long as he maintains CoA, correct? He’s immune to the burning but not dispersing the flames either. Let me know if my thoughts on this are wrong

Zoro can use Flame Rend to avoid the flames, not just Haki (which is more in-character for him to do anyways). Assuming the flames do end up interacting with his Haki and start to disperse, he can simply coat his entire body with Buso to block, or just erect a Buso Emission Barrier to avoid them like he did to King.

 

[Kidkinsey]

how far can he teleport..?

Not miles or anything but 100s of meters

 

[NeoKingOfLight]

Sasuke doesn't use clones in character though, I doubt he'll use em. Also, dura wise they're incredibly frail. Zoro would only need one hit to take it out, which would harm Sasuke more than help, as clones take a lot of chakra for characters who aren't Naruto or Boruto. And for someone like Sasuke who relies on abilities that take a toll on his chakra (Susanoo, Teleporting, Amaterasu etc), he's smart enough to know not to use clones.

@Bold: Does SBA assume In Character?

Also, Sasuke post meeting Hagoromo has more chakra than 50% Kurama going by how he and Naruto could afford to have some chakra absorbed by BZ for a while but BM Naruto instantly bodied by Juubito performing the same feat.

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

Not miles or anything but 100s of meters

can you show?

That's also isn't good considering zoro will know where hes going to teleport to and send another slash at that location beforehand

 

[Kachon123]

@Bold: Does SBA assume In Character?

Yes

From the SBA page:

Assumptions​

State of mind: In character, but will attempt to win the battle. Characters will not give up of their own accord. That means a character that is uninterested or sees no chance of winning won't simply leave and characters wouldn't simply become friends with each other. This doesn't prevent a character being made to give up, because the other character manipulates them via things like, for example, mind control, fear inducement, psychological tricks or superhuman charisma.
Each character will view their opponents as enemies, who they have to assume wish to cause them severe harm such that losing could have any range of dire consequences. The characters will assume their opponents have not been forced into battle. They are assumed to have decided from free will to fight and are not excused by a just cause, difficult times or otherwise exonerating circumstances. Furthermore, the situation is assumed one where the opponents are not protected by social norms or consequences, such as being a civilian protected by law.

 

[Kidkinsey]

can you show?

That's also isn't good considering zoro will know where hes going to teleport to and send another slash at that location beforehand

Ngl gang idk how to post scans so ima just tell u to trust me lmao. Just watch the Naruto and sasuke vs momoshiki fight. He can spam it too only traveling to other dimension fatigues him, once he unlocked the ability between the madara kaguya and naruto fight he used it about 10 times

Highly doubt hes gonna know exactly where sasuke will end up. Laws shambles have caught people off guard, obs haki isn't a foolproof plan to all trickery.

 

[Robo432343]

casual sasuke is 177.48 exatons while zoro is 268.8 Exatons with Haōshoku Infusion
sasuke one shots first..

 

[ReaperAndBlues]

casual sasuke is 177.48 exatons while zoro is 268.8 Exatons with Haōshoku Infusion
sasuke one shots first..

Zoro has dura neg and also Hao isn't something super difficult to use (well, once you unlock it)

 

[Kachon123]

That's also isn't good considering zoro will know where hes going to teleport to and send another slash at that location beforehand

Expanding on this, Kenbun users do that all the time. They attack where their opponent dodges and Zoro specifically has shown to do this several times in his fight with Pica.

 

[Kachon123]

casual sasuke is 177.48 exatons while zoro is 268.8 Exatons with Haōshoku Infusion
sasuke one shots first..

Except Zoro has Kenbun and can sense how strong Sasuke is. He'd start with Haōshoku Haki if needed.

Also, Zoro is 67.2 exatons normally, so at worst, he'd by only slightly overpowered due to Zoro's superior Lifting Strength until he decides amp himself.

 

[NeoKingOfLight]

Haōshoku wave or simply use a large AoE attack such as Tatsumaki.

Why would CH work of them? That’s tantamount to saying it works on Sasuke proper, which it doesn’t. And they have the same arsenal as Sasuke to deal with AoE attacks.

Zoro has superior AP, Striking Strength, and Durability when using Haōshoku Infusion. He can very easily just deflect these attacks.

For starters, there is no “deflecting” Amateratsu, but is this Version of Zoro capable of Maintaining CH Infusion for the entirety of this battle? Iirc, Zoro only surpasses Sasuke here in a special circumstances. Let me know if I’m mistaken.

Rad above.

Same to you.

Zoro can use Flame Rend to avoid the flames, not just Haki (which is more in-character for him to do anyways). Assuming the flames do end up interacting with his Haki and start to disperse, he can simply coat his entire body with Buso to block, or just erect a Buso Emission Barrier to avoid them like he did to King.

The issue here is, Amaterasu isn’t “just” being shot at you. Sasuke has showcased spontaneous combustion as well where it doesn’t travel. Once Zoro is hit (If he is hit), simply coating the body becomes a detriment to himself as he would have to constantly be emitting CoA over his body, which would be taxing for him. And yes, the Ranged Shield “can” Block the projected version of Ama, it’s useless against the Spontaneous version.

 

[ReaperAndBlues]

Why would CH work of them? That’s tantamount to saying it works on Sasuke proper, which it doesn’t. And they have the same arsenal as Sasuke to deal with AoE attacks.

For starters, there is no “deflecting” Amateratsu, but is this Version of Zoro capable of Maintaining CH Infusion for the entirety of this battle? Iirc, Zoro only surpasses Sasuke here in a special circumstances. Let me know if I’m mistaken.

Same to you.

The issue here is, Amaterasu isn’t “just” being shot at you. Sasuke has showcased spontaneous combustion as well where it doesn’t travel. Once Zoro is hit (If he is hit), simply coating the body becomes a detriment to himself as he would have to constantly be emitting CoA over his body, which would be taxing for him. And yes, the Ranged Shield “can” Block the projected version of Ama, it’s useless against the Spontaneous version.

Cool, but Buso Emission + Kenbun will tell him where the flames are.

 

[Kachon123]

Why would CH work of them? That’s tantamount to saying it works on Sasuke proper, which it doesn’t.

I don't know what CH means, but Haōshoku creates a shockwave around the user, which has AP. Zoro with Haōshoku scales above Sasuke's durability, so if the clones get hit, they'd disappear.

And they have the same arsenal as Sasuke to deal with AoE attacks.

Your point was they they'd jump Zoro. If they as much as try, Zoro can very easily release a Tatsumaki, which if they get hit once, they'd disappear.

For starters, there is no “deflecting” Amateratsu

Zoro can just use Flame Rend. Any type of fire projectile is useless to him.

is this Version of Zoro capable of Maintaining CH Infusion for the entirety of this battle?

It's Enma Unleashed and En-Ō Santoryu that Zoro can't use for a very long time. He can use Haōshoku Infusion as long as he wants.

Iirc, Zoro only surpasses Sasuke here in a special circumstances. Let me know if I’m mistaken.

Wrong. He surpasses Sasuke in every amp above basic Busōshoku Haki.

The issue here is, Amaterasu isn’t “just” being shot at you. Sasuke has showcased spontaneous combustion as well where it doesn’t travel.

Can you provide scans? Because iirc, A was able to dodge Sasuke's Amaterasu.

the body becomes a detriment to himself as he would have to constantly be emitting CoA over his body, which would be taxing for him.

Not at all. Zoro is a Buso master. Emitting Haki for extended periods of time is not something he's new to. If Sasuke were to use Amaterasu on Zoro's Buso, he can emit said Buso away from his body and then deactivate it similarly to how Naruto did with his Chakra.

 

[NeoKingOfLight]

Yes

From the SBA page:

Gotcha.

 

[NeoKingOfLight]

Cool, but Buso Emission + Kenbun will tell him where the flames are.

Also me: “(If he is hit)”.

 

[Kachon123]

IIRC, Amaterasu only scales to 5600ºC?

Zoro's base heat resistance without even coating himself with any Haki already scales above this.

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

Highly doubt hes gonna know exactly where sasuke will end up.

To bad he will... He has Divination type precog and will know Sasuke next moves before he even does anything

Laws shambles have caught people off guard, obs haki isn't a foolproof plan to all trickery.

Law is an observation haki user as well, which if you know how precog and observation haki work, can be countered by a more potent usage or with better timing

Otherwise if not, Doffy was easily able to react against law's teleportation even when law is an observation haki user

 

[Kidkinsey]

To bad he will... He has Divination type precog and will know Sasuke next moves before he even does anything

Law is an observation haki user as well, which if you know how precog and observation haki work, can be countered by a more potent usage or with better timing

Otherwise if not, Doffy was easily able to react against law's teleportation even when law is an observation haki user

Well yeah it's not foolproof like i said which is why laws teleportation dosen't automatically get snuffed out. Iirc law successfully tricked doffy with shambles 3 times

It'll just be to hard for zoro to actually land multiple blows due to sasukes many moves to deal with zoros kit, superior mobility via substitution and teleportation.

I'm voting sasuke because. Zoros BEST wincon is essentially a time limit which if sasuke figures out he is 100% equipped enough to stall time, more ways to set up his win cons such as distract him with fire or meteors then teleport behind zoro for a kill shot

 

[Kachon123]

Zoros BEST wincon is essentially a time limit

This isn't true.

more ways to set up his win cons such as distract him with fire

Any fire attack is useless against Zoro due to his heat resistance and Flame Rend.

meteors then teleport behind zoro for a kill shot

Zoro would see these tactics coming from a mile away with BOAT and Kenbun. He can also very easily take out any meteors with a single ranges slash due to his range.

 

[NeoKingOfLight]

I don't know what CH means, but Haōshoku creates a shockwave around the user, which has AP. Zoro with Haōshoku scales above Sasuke's durability, so if the clones get hit, they'd disappear.

CH = Conqeror’s Haki (The English Naming is more Recognizable to me) & Last I checked, CH emission has never been scaled to the direct AP of the user. When you say CH Wave, you mean the Knockout wave, correct? And as Naruto has displayed, Six Paths Shadow Clones don’t disperse right away when hit by a peer level attack. Naruto’s Shadow Clones legit had a fist fight with Madara’s Limbo’s, and they were taking hits. Sasuke’s would scale.

Your point was they they'd jump Zoro. If they as much as try, Zoro can very easily release a Tatsumaki, which if they get hit once, they'd disappear.

(1) Read Above.

(2) Sasuke’s Clones would have the same counters as the main body does to this technique.

Zoro can just use Flame Rend. Any type of fire projectile is useless to him.

I don’t think you understand… Amateratsu has 2 usage cases. Projectile and Spontaneous Combustion (Yes, he Ignited the Amateratsu in the Cavity Left by Kaguya and it did not travel from his eye as a projectile). Flame Rend would only be useful in the first case.

It's Enma Unleashed and En-Ō Santoryu that Zoro can't use for a very long time. He can use Haōshoku Infusion as long as he wants.

Isn’t Zoro’s AP 67Et with Infusion and 268Et with Enma Unleashed?

Wrong. He surpasses Sasuke in every amp above basic Busōshoku Haki.

Let me check the profiles again…

Can you provide scans? Because iirc, A was able to dodge Sasuke's Amaterasu.

Did above. Sasuke showcased this after gaining his Six Paths Amped Rinnegan.

Not at all. Zoro is a Buso master. Emitting Haki for extended periods of time is not something he's new to. If Sasuke were to use Amaterasu on Zoro's Buso, he can emit said Buso away from his body and then deactivate it similarly to how Naruto did with his Chakra.

Sure, that’s a legit counter… assuming in this Scenario Sasuke doesn’t make “Zoro Hibachi” with Kagetsuchi before he does so, but I still need to re-check the profiles. So, i’ll put a pin in this for now.

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

Zoro can one shot him in multiple ways while Sasuke has barely any and would even have a problem landing a significant hit on zoro via observations Haki usage, range attacks, speed amps and his incredibly fast growth in stats to both speed and ap

I'll vote Zoro for the many reasoning above as I've yet to see anyone actually state a valid way for Sasuke defeating Zoro especially when he even has willpower and endurance feats of surviving attacks that's meant to kill him

 

[NeoKingOfLight]

IIRC, Amaterasu only scales to 5600ºC?

Zoro's base heat resistance without even coating himself with any Haki already scales above this.

I think you missed the point where Amaterasu burns infinitely until it’s somehow dispatched away with or the target is ash. I digress, the “heat” isn’t the main issue here, it’s the cutting AP with Kagetsuchi.

 

[Kachon123]

Last I checked, CH emission has never been scaled to the direct AP of the user

It's shown to be able to tear apart the surroundings, so it's assumed to scale to the AP of the user's Haki, which in Zoro's case is 268.8 Exatons.

as Naruto has displayed, Six Paths Shadow Clones don’t disperse right away when hit by a peer level attack. Naruto’s Shadow Clones legit had a fist fight with Madara’s Limbo’s, and they were taking hits. Sasuke’s would scale.

Lucky for Zoro, Sasuke isn't his peer in terms of AP/Durability.

(2) Sasuke’s Clones would have the same counters as the main body does to this technique.

Zoro has far better range than Sasuke does with his teleportation, so I really doubt Sasuke and his clones would be able to escape him, especially when Zoro knows where he'd teleport to before he even moves.

I don’t think you understand… Amateratsu has 2 usage cases. Projectile and Spontaneous Combustion (Yes, he Ignited the Amateratsu in the Cavity Left by Kaguya and it did not travel from his eye as a projectile).

Sasuke created the Amaterasu on his hand and then used flame control to move the fire around. He did not spontaneously combust anything. The anime supports this. Are there any other examples of spontaneous combustion for Amaterasu?

Isn’t Zoro’s AP 67Et with Infusion and 268Et with Enma Unleashed?
Let me check the profiles again…

Tier: 5-C with Busōshoku Haki (67), far higher with Haoshoku Infusion, Kyutoryu, or when unleashing Enma (268.8), even higher with En-Ō Santōryū

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

I think you missed the point where Amaterasu burns infinitely until it’s somehow dispatched away with or the target is ash. I digress, the “heat” isn’t the main issue here, it’s the cutting AP with Kagetsuchi.

Zoro can make forcefields with haki to where it won't touch him

Or cut the flame in half with his fire style swordmanship

 

[Kachon123]

I think you missed the point where Amaterasu burns infinitely until it’s somehow dispatched away with or the target is ash.

If the flames aren't burning Zoro, they'd just stay there and do nothing to him.

the “heat” isn’t the main issue here, it’s the cutting AP with Kagetsuchi.

Zoro can easily block Kagetsuchi with his blades. Zoro has higher durability and AP when using Haōshoku Infusion or Enma Unleashed. Honestly, even Zoro's normal Busōshoku Haki could probably defend against Kagetsuchi. Zoro's normal Busōshoku Haki is only 2.64x weaker than Kagetsuchi, and we know Busōshoku grants piercing and slashing resistance, so much so that someone with a weaker durability amp than Zoro could defend against attacks that were 6x stronger than him.

 

[NeoKingOfLight]

Zoro can one shot him in multiple ways

Let’s be honest, Zoro doesn’t have a response to Substitution Jutsu, let alone other defensive Jutsu.

If i wanted to troll you, I could literally say Sasuke spams that Academy level jutsu and Zoro has no response to it, and it would still be valid.

while Sasuke has barely any and would even have a problem landing a significant hit on zoro via observations Haki usage

Zoro isn't doing shit when his every move is already know by Sasuke here. Sorry but it doesn’t matter how good CoO is in OP. We’ve been over this. Both Sasuke and Zoro will know about every attack, every counter, every movement before they make it.

Prove otherwise or retire the argument, it’s just noise at this point.

range attacks

Ameno, Substitution, Susanoo or just simply basic evasion tactics deals with this. Also, Sasuke as them too~

speed amps

Sasuke has them too~

and his incredibly fast growth in stats to both speed and ap

I'll vote Zoro for the many reasoning above as I've yet to see anyone actually state a valid way for Sasuke defeating Zoro especially when he even has willpower and endurance feats of surviving attacks that's meant to kill him

Yeah, ok. I’ll vote for Sasuke because his arsenal is better suited for creating openings and the OP supporters here haven’t provided a valid counter to Sasuke’s defensive counters of Zoro’s offensive arsenal.

Helluva Bias…

 

[NeoKingOfLight]

Zoro can make forcefields with haki to where it won't touch him

Or cut the flame in half with his fire style swordmanship

Gee… I just love it when people don’t pay attention to the thread and argue against the points you “never” made, such as… I never said Zoro didn’t have counters to certain aspects of Amaterasu.