King of Hell vs The Blue Lightning of Vollachia (Roronoa Zoro vs Cecilus Segmund)

[XDragnoir]

Also, side question, was Ceci MHS+ when he dodged the raindrops or whatever? That affects the feat a good bit

 

[Arkenis]

... The f?

Read it. Unless I'm missing something he targets the essence of what he attacks, not just the source.

No he can't, since speed is equal and it would've already hit him at that point

Just gonna drop this here.
Analytical Prediction (Cecilus is constantly aware of everything in his surroundings, analyzing other's physical abilities, conduct, and sounds,[4] to always have a grasp the positions of everyone and everything nearby. He is unfathomably superior to Emilia who dodged a rain of arrows faster than her eyes could track by reading the shooters' intent[22]. Far superior to Old Wilhelm who, invisible or not, can anticipate his opponents attacks[10] by watching the movement of their eyes, feeling their hostility, reading how they breathe as they aim. At least comparable to Theresia who can predict her opponent's future attacks[23] from the stance they take, from where their eyes are trained, and from the very air that hangs above them, and can see, read, and feel paths of hostility[23] raining down upon her)

And? Zoro still has comparable if not better combat intelligence...

I don't see anything better in the description. If they're comparable that doesn't help.

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

Just gonna drop this here.
Analytical Prediction (Cecilus is constantly aware of everything in his surroundings, analyzing other's physical abilities, conduct, and sounds,[4] to always have a grasp the positions of everyone and everything nearby. He is unfathomably superior to Emilia who dodged a rain of arrows faster than her eyes could track by reading the shooters' intent[22]. Far superior to Old Wilhelm who, invisible or not, can anticipate his opponents attacks[10] by watching the movement of their eyes, feeling their hostility, reading how they breathe as they aim. At least comparable to Theresia who can predict her opponent's future attacks[23] from the stance they take, from where their eyes are trained, and from the very air that hangs above them, and can see, read, and feel paths of hostility[23] raining down upon her)

don't drop that.

I don't see anything better in the description. If they're comparable that doesn't help.

Why wouldn't it help...? Comparable combat intelligence while having more abilities that one shots...

 

[SatellaTheWoE]

Question, how does CM3 interact with default resistances?

Can a normal resistance to soul hax resist a CM3 attack towards the soul? I know CM2 goes through non-conceptual resistances, I am not sure about CM3.

CM type 3 also gives it an aditional abstract layer i believe so a normal resistance wouldnt be able to resist it as the overall potency increases
I could be wrong though, i heard gin say this once

 

[SatellaTheWoE]

don't drop that.

Why wouldn't it help...? Comparable combat intelligence while having more abilities that one shots...

You keep saying he has abilities that one shots but which ones are you reffering to?
Speed amp gets negated by IR
Whirlwind gets its point cut with a single sword whereas Zoro would need to do multiple to even make them

 

[Nierre]

Also, side question, was Ceci MHS+ when he dodged the raindrops or whatever? That affects the feat a good bit

his speed doesn't matter, because it's physically impossible to dodge shit like rain unless ur just so fast u phase thru it, which doesn't seem to have been the case

 

[Zabazab]

Can a normal resistance to soul hax resist a CM3 attack towards the soul? I know CM2 goes through non-conceptual resistances, I am not sure about CM3.

I think CM3 is the same as Reality Warping in that it's merely descriptive?

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

You keep saying he has abilities that one shots but which ones are you reffering to?

Limited Durability Negation (Through sensing the "Breath" of their desired target they're able to cut objects or people they otherwise couldn't through power alone. It's effectiveness begins to lessen against objects or opponent's with durability that far exceeds the limit of this ability)

Which he can imbue into basically any slash

Speed amp gets negated by IR

No it does not... It doesn't in one piece, it doesn't in vsbw and it doesn't in common sense...

Whirlwind gets its point cut with a single sword whereas Zoro would need to do multiple to even make them

Not when speed is equal and it's an aoe attack on top of him... Stop giving cecilus basically infinite speed at every situation

 

[Zabazab]

... And what's that supposed to prove? Reaction speed isn't the speed of movements, it's the speed of you noticing stuff which is then followed by movements

No, reaction speed is the speed of movements, as it says on the Speed Page. Specifically short movements such as dodging. You're thinking of Perception Speed, which Cecilus also has an extreme advantage in.

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

his speed doesn't matter, because it's physically impossible to dodge shit like rain unless ur just so fast u phase thru it, which doesn't seem to have been the case

let's not forget that he got also hit by the attack

The heroine did not flinch even after getting hit by Cecilius's sword and had fine magic crystals growing on her shoulders and arms, making it look like she had a angel wings.

There is one particularly eye catching thin magic stone that floats softly around the heroine.

She fires one of the magic stone towards him, but he decided to lick it and then is dissapointed about the taste.



---

"I see, this tastes strange. What a jewel taste?"

If it looks like candy, it tastes just like when you roll a jewel in your mouth and you're disappointed - in other words, what the heroine wears is a jewel belt.

“Come to think of it, at the beginning you were emitting light and fire, but in the middle you changed to stone pillars and earthen limbs. So the jewels are also an extension of that... It's really elegant and I like it! Good. That’s great, it increases the climax level!”

"--Heavenly Maiden of Kongo Stone!!"

---

Cecilius releases fast slash that can cut even iron castle in two. The heroine fires all 12 diamonds from her robe towards him from all directions to kill him.

---

A realm filled with ``death'', a mountain of corpses that must dodge the raindrops in the storm...

"If that's what you need! Dodge raindrops or sand grains!"

If you are exposed to it, you will die, if you are killed, you will be destroyed, and if you are destroyed, it will be the end.

---

He keeps dodging all flying crystals and is very glad that he is not adult because it's easier with childs body.

"Let your imagination run wild here!"

The onslaught continued and he ignored all the gushing blood from his shallow wounds. His thoughs start being accelerated even more, but if things continue like this, Cecilius will be bored. So he instead uses all of his functions to look good on the stage.

Also the more I read, the more it just sound like an incantation/attack hyperbole for a just 12 diamonds flying at him in all directions...

 

[VortechsTG]

Because it would take time for him to slash all of them, once it has been

No, it wouldn't. His slashes cut in an aoe all around him.

 

[SatellaTheWoE]

Which he can imbue into basically any slash

This reminds me, Cecilus can also cut the point of his sword

No it does not... It doesn't in one piece, it doesn't in vsbw and it doesn't in common sense...

There was a time when the wiki had accepted its fate and had allowed Ram to react to attacks 65 to 135 times its speed..via skill
Ikki also could react stomp opponents 9000x his speed..via skill
For once, I think I can say this:
even without wank this feat is actually sensible

Not when speed is equal and it's an aoe attack on top of him... Stop giving cecilus basically infinite speed at every situation

He doesn't have infinite speed, he just swings his sword once and the "point" of the whirldwind will be cut

 

[LordGinSama]

Make Reid black and it's GG

 

[LordGinSama]

Also current arguments?

 

[LordGinSama]

No, reaction speed is the speed of movements, as it says on the Speed Page. Specifically short movements such as dodging. You're thinking of Perception Speed, which Cecilus also has an extreme advantage in.

How so?

 

[Zabazab]

How so?

Wdym "how so?"

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

He doesn't have infinite speed, he just swings his sword once and the "point" of the whirldwind will be cut

The whirlwind that's created on top of him..

No, reaction speed is the speed of movements

I don't think I will ever understand that unless the wiki is just going against reality and making it like that just because...

so then... Any dodging/physical small movement feat is a reaction speed feat and somehow not combat speed?????? THAT MAKES NO SENSE, and no one even in calcs accept it like that

but still, zoro has blitzed/outpaced blitzed techniques... So he would still get blitzed even if he has higher reactions (pls someone change it because that will never make sense)

 

[SeijiSetto]

Also, side question, was Ceci MHS+ when he dodged the raindrops or whatever? That affects the feat a good bit

nierre already said it but yes, the speed of the raindrops compared to the person dodging them is literally irrelevant.
the gaps between raindrops are not large enough to dodge through, they could be literally frozen mid-air and it wouldn't change a thing.
it's a bullshit feat (as i have already said), effectively """"skill""""-based danmaku resistance.

 

[LordGinSama]

Wdym "how so?"

You said Celi had a significant advantage in perception speed.

 

[LordGinSama]

the gaps between raindrops are not large enough to dodge through, they could be literally frozen mid-air and it wouldn't change a thing.

Yeah I still don't buy that. Unless it's a literally rainstorm then I don't agree with that being used the way it is currently, furthermore there's also things to take into account for such as the size of the storm which would effect what it could cover, was it inside or outside? Did the feat state that he weaved through all of the individual rain drops simultaneously?

 

[Zabazab]

You said Celi had a significant advantage in perception speed.

Check Cecilus' page. Now everything is on it.

 

[LordGinSama]

Check Cecilus' page. Now everything is on it.

Zoro is FTL+, far higher with his amps. Although speed is equalized so there isn't really a "faster" character here unless they use amps.

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

nierre already said it but yes, the speed of the raindrops compared to the person dodging them is literally irrelevant.
the gaps between raindrops are not large enough to dodge through, they could be literally frozen mid-air and it wouldn't change a thing.
it's a bullshit feat (as i have already said), effectively """"skill""""-based danmaku resistance.

unless you're ignoring the contexts sure...

I can also use an actual bullshit skill feat with zoro and scale him to this

 

[The_man_with_the_Midas_touch]

I can also use an actual bullshit skill feat with zoro and scale him to this

That's....not even a skill feat. That's just Ryuma blitzing all three of them before they could perceive.

 

[LordGinSama]

That's....not even a skill feat. That's just Ryuma blitzing all three of them before they could perceive.

Nah. He's literally cutting them so cleanly they don't notice the wounds till afterwards. It's less about speed and more so about the accuracy and smoothness of his cuts.

It's a technique, not a speed based ability. He makes several cuts to the enemy without them noticing and by the time he puts his swords away the wounds appear.

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

That's....not even a skill feat. That's just Ryuma blitzing all three of them before they could perceive.

it is not just a speed feat... When the sword is un sheathed, you've already been cut and you only realize it after having walked three steps or the person walking three steps

 

[Zabazab]

it is not just a speed feat... When the sword is un sheathed, you've already been cut and you only realize it after having walked three steps or the person walking three steps

It's a neat precision feat.

 

[SeijiSetto]

Yeah I still don't buy that. Unless it's a literally rainstorm then I don't agree with that being used the way it is currently, furthermore there's also things to take into account for such as the size of the storm which would effect what it could cover, was it inside or outside? Did the feat state that he weaved through all of the individual rain drops simultaneously?

The scan is on his profile, it uses that exact wording. As a child he's capable of fighting battles where "one would have to dodge the raindrops amidst a storm" and has stated himself he can dodge rain.

To do some napkin math:
This Britannica link says there are anywhere between 100 and 1,000 raindrops in 1 m^3. I'll take 100 just to lowball as hard as possible.
Assuming Ceci weighs the global average human weight of 62 kg (he doesn't, he's heavier and therefore larger volume-wise) and that humans are roughly 985 kg/m^3 (slightly less dense than water since we float), he's taking up a volume of 0.0629m^3.
Multiply that by 100, and at any given moment there are 6 raindrops occupying the volume where he is. Not to mention he's actively moving around and so would be running into more raindrops.

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

It's a neat precision feat.

And a feat of not being able to notice when you've been cut

 

[Kazuma_kuwabara]

nierre already said it but yes, the speed of the raindrops compared to the person dodging them is literally irrelevant.
the gaps between raindrops are not large enough to dodge through, they could be literally frozen mid-air and it wouldn't change a thing.
it's a bullshit feat (as i have already said), effectively """"skill""""-based danmaku resistance.

Best answer of this thread, take your like, you earn it

 

[The_man_with_the_Midas_touch]

Nah. He's literally cutting them so cleanly they don't notice the wounds till afterwards. It's less about speed and more so about the accuracy and smoothness of his cuts.

Any precision or accuracy that could be derived from it would be unquantifiable at best. It's always attributed mainly as a result of its speed, in canon. An effect that is pretty much entirely limited to said technique, as none of Brooks/Ryuma's other techniques (to my knowledge) share the "delayed cutting" effect. Aside from its variations.

Regardless, Zoro doesn't go for slashes with that level of "precision" in character. So I'm not quite sure why it would be particularly relevant in this match-up.

 

[LordGinSama]

Also when it comes to dodging Zoro scales to Luffy who could dodge an explosion that was somehow already on him.

Aside from that he also has feats of dodging omnidirectional attacks

The scan is on his profile, it uses that exact wording. As a child he's capable of fighting battles where "one would have to dodge the raindrops amidst a storm" and has stated himself he can dodge rain.

Yeah the only issue is how. It's never explained how he did it, I.E dodging each individual raindrops, going around it's radius, jumping over it, etc. I also dislike how it's assumed to be omnidirectional whenever it's explicitly stated it only came at him from 12 different angles.

Second feat you linked is just him cutting apart the cloud that's producing the rain.

To do some napkin math:
This Britannica link says there are anywhere between 100 and 1,000 raindrops in 1 m^3. I'll take 100 just to lowball as hard as possible.
Assuming Ceci weighs the global average human weight of 62 kg (he doesn't, he's heavier and therefore larger volume-wise) and that humans are roughly 985 kg/m^3 (slightly less dense than water since we float), he's taking up a volume of 0.0629m^3.
Multiply that by 100, and at any given moment there are 6 raindrops occupying the volume where he is. Not to mention he's actively moving around and so would be running into more raindrops.

Thanks for the Death Battle calculation, but I'm fully aware of that. Again it's never stated how he dodged it, and the size of the storm is also never stated.

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

Any precision or accuracy that could be derived from it would be unquantifiable at best. It's always attributed mainly as a result of its speed, in canon. An effect that is pretty much entirely limited to said technique, as none of Brooks/Ryuma's other techniques (to my knowledge) share the "delayed cutting" effect. Aside from its variations.

Regardless, Zoro doesn't go for slashes with that level of "precision" in character. So I'm not quite sure why it would be particularly relevant in this match-up.

because zoro's shishi sonson matched it's unnoticeable speed and skill

zoro's shishi sonson also has been stated to be almost invisible

■師匠の教えを胸に、鉄を斬る！『一刀流「居合」〝獅子歌歌〟』

アラバスタ編での、体が鉄の硬さを持った「全身刃物人間」Mr.1とのバトルでは、鉄を斬ることができないゾロの斬撃は全く効かず、苦戦を強いられます。敵の容赦ない攻撃に〝死の境地〟まで到達したその時、ゾロは万物の「呼吸」を読み取ることができるようになります。師匠の教えを思い出し、Mr.1の鉄の「呼吸」を読み、相手を斬る時の力、タイミング、急所などを把握すると、あれほど響かなかったゾロの刃は、相手を斬り抜いたのです。その速さたるや、まさに神速。斬る瞬間は目にも止まらず、納刀する頃には敵は膝をついて崩れ落ち…。自身に試練を与えてくれたMr.1に対し感謝を述べるところも、ゾロの成長が伺えます（『ONE PIECE』21巻195話）。
———————————
Cutting Iron with Master's Teachings in Mind! Itto-ryu "Iai" "Shishi-Uta-Uta" (The Lion's Song)

In the Alabasta Arc, Zoro's slashes, which cannot cut through steel, have no effect on Mr. 1, a "full-body blade man" whose body has the hardness of iron, and he is forced into a difficult battle. When he is on the verge of death from the relentless attacks of his enemies, Zoro becomes able to read the "breath" of all things. Remembering his master's teachings, Zoro read Mr. 1's iron "breath" and grasped the power, timing, and vital points when cutting his opponent, and his blade, which had never sounded that fast before, cut right through his opponent. His speed was truly divine. The moment he slashed, it was almost invisible, and by the time he delivered the blade, the enemy fell to his knees and crumpled to the ground. Zoro's growth can be seen in the way he thanks Mr. 1 for putting him through the ordeal ("ONE PIECE" vol. 21, no. 195).

 

[LordGinSama]

Regardless, Zoro doesn't go for slashes with that level of "precision" in character. So I'm not quite sure why it would be particularly relevant in this match-up.

This is also untrue. After unlocking Goken, Zoro always pays attention to the precision of his cuts. That's the whole basis of the ability, to cut with such precision you can cut through anything.

Any precision or accuracy that could be derived from it would be unquantifiable at best. It's always attributed mainly as a result of its speed, in canon.

Again false. It's never attributed to his speed, that was never stated nor implied. As for Goken, speed is one of the factors but it isn't about "faster speed" but rather "the correct speed." Ryuma didn't get any notable speed increase from that attack, he just moreso flexed on them with a precision technique. Something that Zoro can react to and counter attack instantaneously.

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

Yee ginsama has absolutely destroyed me in his explanation... I need a rest/break or something I can't even think straight currently

 

[SatellaTheWoE]

Also when it comes to dodging Zoro scales to Luffy who could dodge an explosion that was somehow already on him.

Aside from that he also has feats of dodging omnidirectional attacks

Yeah the only issue is how. It's never explained how he did it, I.E dodging each individual raindrops, going around it's radius, jumping over it, etc. I also dislike how it's assumed to be omnidirectional whenever it's explicitly stated it only came at him from 12 different angles.

Second feat you linked is just him cutting apart the cloud that's producing the rain.

Thanks for the Death Battle calculation, but I'm fully aware of that. Again it's never stated how he dodged it, and the size of the storm is also never stated.

The how part isnt even relevant.
Anyways, Reinhard has run through multiple kilometres in a rainstorm while being ordered not to let a single drop hit him or the letter he was carrying
Even if you aren't convinced of Cecilus being able to dodge omnidirectional attacks, the Reinhard version of the feat absolutely is able to do so
Current statements scale him to Cecilus so Cecilus also has the backing of that feat now
Also his perception amp is atleast 100x in his own words

 

[The_man_with_the_Midas_touch]

This is also untrue. After unlocking Goken, Zoro always pays attention to the precision of his cuts. That's the whole basis of the ability, to cut with such precision you can cut through anything.

Going for precision cuts and going for the level of unquantifiable precision for these "delayed cuts" are two very separate things. I never said they weren't precise, I'm saying Zoro doesn't go for that particular level of effect with his slashes, in character.

Again false. It's never attributed to his speed, that was never stated nor implied.

Brook's slashes are routinely attributed to his absurd speed what? That's the main purpose of the technique, the fact it can cut you so fast you can't react to it in time.

because zoro's shishi sonson matched it's unnoticeable speed and skill

Zoro cut Ryuma's Arrow Notch Slash with Dragon Blaze, which was done BEFORE said attack hit him. He didn't match the precision of his attack in that instance.

Zoros Shishi Sonon only matched Ryuma's thrusting attack iirc.

 

[VortechsTG]

Yeah the only issue is how. It's never explained how he did it, I.E dodging each individual raindrops, going around it's radius, jumping over it, etc.

Doing what you are suggesting would never be considered an impressive feat when talking about anyone but low tiers in the verse. Nor would it be used as a comparison for attacks coming at him from all directions like these. It's comparable to Reinhard running through the rain to deliver a letter and not getting himself or it wet at all. So, yes, it actually is very clear how it happens.

 

[Zabazab]

dodging each individual raindrops

This. Obviously this. Why would it ever mean anything else?

Second feat you linked is just him cutting apart the cloud that's producing the rain.

It wasn't raining then, the scan is him (as an adult) saying he can dodge rain.

 

[Fezzih_007]

Anyways, Reinhard has run through multiple kilometres in a rainstorm while being ordered not to let a single drop hit him or the letter he was carrying

I mean, is kinda relevant how he did It.
Because he could be using a umbrela or something.
Like, he was not, but you know, there's way to avoid getting wet on the rain. He have a blessing that prevents projectiles for hitting him afteralll.