Dragon Ball Z Manga Power Scaling

[Antvasima]

So should we apply what is stated in the following sandbox draft then, in lack of better options? Or should we finally close this thread after first starting a staff only thread in our staff forum for this purpose?

ByAsura/Sandbox22

vsbattles.fandom.com

 

[Antvasima]

So should we apply what is stated in the following sandbox draft then, in lack of better options? Or should we finally close this thread after first starting a staff only thread in our staff forum for this purpose?

ByAsura/Sandbox22

vsbattles.fandom.com

@AKM sama @GyroNutz @DarkDragonMedeus @ByAsura

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

So should we apply what is stated in the following sandbox draft then, in lack of better options? Or should we finally close this thread after first starting a staff only thread in our staff forum for this purpose?

ByAsura/Sandbox22

vsbattles.fandom.com

Hold on. Scaling discussion is happening.

 

[Antvasima]

Beyond a certain point of ridiculous discussion length, it all just starts to float together into an endless stream of pointless incoherent babbling, and we need to start to look at getting something concretely done to solve the issue, in this case leave it to the staff only to evaluate.

 

[GyroNutz]

I agree with Semi-Perfect Cell being >2x Android 17, even the regular humans that Cell absorbed increased his power to the point where he could stomp Piccolo. This isn't to say that all Dragon Ball absorption is necessarily additive, but the gap is just so wide that it makes sense to scale this way.

Only other thing in the blog that I'd change is Piccolo scaling to Cell Jrs, it's a reach to say there's evidence suggesting this is the case and context implies that he's far below Vegeta and Trunks who each struggled with the Cell Jr they fought. Other than that, I wouldn't mind if the blog was applied.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Yeah the only thing that needs to be changed is Semi-Perfect Cell being > 2 * Android 17 and Buutenks = Super Buu + Gotenks, as it's made clear that Buu's added power relies on who he absorbs, which is proven as when Buutenks reverts to Buuccolo, Goku says that now Gohan can beat him unlike before

 

[Antvasima]

I agree with Semi-Perfect Cell being >2x Android 17, even the regular humans that Cell absorbed increased his power to the point where he could stomp Piccolo. This isn't to say that all Dragon Ball absorption is necessarily additive, but the gap is just so wide that it makes sense to scale this way.

Only other thing in the blog that I'd change is Piccolo scaling to Cell Jrs, it's a reach to say there's evidence suggesting this is the case and context implies that he's far below Vegeta and Trunks who each struggled with the Cell Jr they fought. Other than that, I wouldn't mind if the blog was applied.

Thank you for the evaluation.

Is this acceptable for you, @ByAsura and @AKM sama ?

 

[ByAsura]

Fine on the Cell multiplier.

I strongly disagree with the Cell Jr. thing. Evidence suggests Piccolo, despite not fighting on par with them, was able to withstand their blows without much damage. The Cell Jrs. did hold back against the weaker Z-Fighters, but they also knocked them out in an instant because Cell told the Z-Fighters to give them hell.

What I'm trying to get at is, yes they are sadistic, but they'd also fold Piccolo much more easily if given the opportunity, especially after Cell told them to stop fooling around and slaughter them.

Claiming Piccolo is far weaker does not make sense.

 

[Vizer04]

This is on Fríeza's profile:

Speed: At least FTL (Comparable in speed to Vegeta after his Zenkai boosts, and Ginyu Saga Goku even with Kaio-ken x4)

Was this accepted? And if it was, it should be FTL+ and not just FTL

 

[ByAsura]

It's based on Vegeta saying he has no chance, despite knowing he can multiply his power.

I'll edit it.

 

[ByAsura]

No, FTL+ is 10c. Kaioken x4 Goku is 8c.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

It's based on Vegeta saying he has no chance, despite knowing he can multiply his power.

I'll edit it.

Vegeta don't know about KK10. And Second Form Frieza would scale to KK10 in speed as he's likely stronger

 

[ByAsura]

We're exclusively talking about Kaioken x4.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

We're exclusively talking about Kaioken x4.

Yes, but I was talking about the speed values after that for the blog. Frieza scaling above KK4 Goku in speed is good, but we also know KK10 Goku < Second Form Frieza

 

[GyroNutz]

Evidence suggests Piccolo, despite not fighting on par with them, was able to withstand their blows without much damage.

There is no evidence. That's the whole point. There's two panels that show an injured Piccolo and an unscathed Cell Jr who aren't even in the middle of fighting, 0 statements about how Piccolo was performing and 0 reason to believe that Piccolo reached a similar level to Trunks and Vegeta.

The Cell Jrs. did hold back against the weaker Z-Fighters, but they also knocked them out in an instant because Cell told the Z-Fighters to give them hell.

While the human Z-fighters all got knocked out and Piccolo didn't, all this means is that Piccolo performed better than said Z-fighters, which is obvious. The Cell Jrs also were told, and had ample time, to kill the Z-fighters but didn't, showing their unwillingness to "fold" Piccolo.

Saying it's clear that Piccolo should scale to Cell Jrs despite no evidence suggesting this is pure headcanon.

 

[Vizer04]

Yes, but I was talking about the speed values after that for the blog. Frieza scaling above KK4 Goku in speed is good, but we also know KK10 Goku < Second Form Frieza

This, we should make 2nd Form Frieza FTL+ and remove the likely ratings

 

[ByAsura]

There is no evidence. That's the whole point. There's two panels that show an injured Piccolo and an unscathed Cell Jr who aren't even in the middle of fighting, 0 statements about how Piccolo was performing and 0 reason to believe that Piccolo reached a similar level to Trunks and Vegeta.

A barely injured Piccolo. That’s both the point and evidence.

I’m not claiming they’re extremely similar in strength, just that the gap logically isn’t at all sizeable.

If you want more evidence, the fact that Piccolo was way stronger than Android Saga Super Saiyan Vegeta before he went into the Time Chamber should act as good support.

While the human Z-fighters all got knocked out and Piccolo didn't, all this means is that Piccolo performed better than said Z-fighters, which is obvious. The Cell Jrs also were told, and had ample time, to kill the Z-fighters but didn't, showing their unwillingness to "fold" Piccolo.

And yet they pretty much fail, in any measure, to take advantage of this supposedly large disparity against Piccolo of all people? No, this does not make sense. They try to annihilate people weaker than them, even if they don’t kill them, and get visibly angered at Trunks and Vegeta’s resistance.

For example, the first thing they do against Yamcha is break his forearm. They would have done this level of damage to Piccolo if they were capable of it.

Again, they were knocked out, and with a few or even less blows. They weren’t toying with them after or anything because they wouldn’t even be conscious of that fact.

Saying it's clear that Piccolo should scale to Cell Jrs despite no evidence suggesting this is pure headcanon.

Saying he doesn’t even remotely scale is pure headcanon. This argument requires favouritism of certain traits the Cell Jrs have only partially shown.

They would, absolutely, “fold” Piccolo if he was so much weaker. Maybe not kill, but certainly crush him.

Not only that, but you’re talking about someone with regeneration here. If we go by Piccolo’s offspring, they have their parents’ knowledge to an extent, so why not rip apart the regenerator or at least do more damage to him, like Frieza (who Cell and, by extension, the Cell Jrs. are based off)?

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Piccolo also trained alone. So it makes even less sense he scales to Vegeta and Trunks, especially when both trained for 2 years in the chamber

 

[ByAsura]

Piccolo can clone himself. He even does so in the anime.

 

[ByAsura]

How about a compromise?

Given that the Cells were only on par with Super Saiyans, we can just give Piccolo Large Star level with no at least, which SPC, Vegeta and Trunks have.

 

[Vizer04]

Gilad seems to make more sense on this point

 

[Vizer04]

So, can we start downgrading characters or....

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

How about a compromise?

Given that the Cells were only on par with Super Saiyans, we can just give Piccolo Large Star level with no at least, which SPC, Vegeta and Trunks have.

Nah give him "At most Large star level". Basically the same thing but nevertheless he should scale to the cells at least somewhat for keeping up and taking minor damage.
As long as he scales to large star for being above SPC.
You guys did come to a conclusion on cells multiplier right?

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Again, it's not a multiplier. Cell is High 4-C by being more than Imperfect Cell + Android 17, who each scale to 4-C+

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

I know man. But I believe it's easier to say and understand "2x multiplier" than "Cell is High 4-C by being more than Imperfect Cell + Android 17, who each scale to 4-C+".

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

I know man. But I believe it's easier to say and understand "2x multiplier" than "Cell is High 4-C by being more than Imperfect Cell + Android 17, who each scale to 4-C+".

But saying two times multiplier is inaccurate, and makes people more opposed to that as they'll say there is no multiplier, and they'll be right. The reason it's a times 2 (kinda, and lowballing) is because he's above Android 17 + Imperfect Cell who each scale to 4-C+

That's just being accurate and not cause misunderstanding, especially for staff reading this

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Yeah, Piccolo definitely got stronger in Hyperbolic Time chamber. Vegeta commenting "I bet all you did was take a nap in there" was more so Vegeta being typical Vegeta where he was cocky all the time. Trunks on the other hand was surprised by how much he really grew.

And yes, we already went over Semi-Perfect Cell. It's an add-on and not a multiplier; an X + Y as opposed to an X times Y situation. We don't need to discuss it further.

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

Okay so we agree with piccolo scaling and SPC's "multiplier", is there anything else to discuss before we edit the profiles?

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Yeah, Piccolo definitely got stronger in Hyperbolic Time chamber. Vegeta commenting "I bet all you did was take a nap in there" was more so Vegeta being typical Vegeta where he was cocky all the time. Trunks on the other hand was surprised by how much he really grew.

Was that even in the manga?

And yes, we already went over Semi-Perfect Cell. It's an add-on and not a multiplier; an X + Y as opposed to an X times Y situation. We don't need to discuss it further.

Agreed

 

[Vizer04]

I agree as well

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

Was that even in the manga?

Agreed

Trunks' reaction wasn't however Goku's was, he was very surprised by his power growth but he said he still can't beat cell.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Trunks' reaction wasn't however Goku's was, he was very surprised by his power growth but he said he still can't beat cell.

We see Trunks surprised by that statement as well.

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

We see Trunks surprised by that statement as well.

That implies that trunks thought piccolo stands a chance against cell so it's unreliable. He's not reacting to piccolo's power.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

That implies that trunks thought piccolo stands a chance against cell so it's unreliable. He's not reacting to piccolo's power.

He wasn't thinking that, but he was surprised at how strong Piccolo became regardless. He does agree with Goku that Piccolo has no chance against Cell

 

[ByAsura]

I added the Cell stuff.

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

@AKM sama akm update your speed blog to match asura's AP blog scaling.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

@AKM sama akm update your speed blog to match asura's AP blog scaling.

You can't ping, quote them.

 

[AKM sama]

That AP blog looks fine for now. We can edit characters' AP sections based on that and link it in the justifications.

@AKM sama akm update your speed blog to match asura's AP blog scaling.

Wdym? It was already decided that we are going to cap speed to a certain limit because of lack of feats. And it was decided that cap needs to be reduced to MFTL. Until you make a staff thread and get the Buu thing accepted.

 

[Antvasima]

So have our staff here agreed regarding what should be applied now?

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Keep in mind, if we keep the Kaioken x10 part and the fact that the SSJ multiplier is still a 50x speed boost as well as a speed boost. But note the 3rd form Frieza being faster than a 10x Ginyu saga Goku as a likely. The end point is actually At least Massively FTL, likely Massively FTL+ scaling from Frieza saga SSJ Goku.

Given a simple correction to the double checking as far as "Only using the pre Android saga speed rating jumps" that AKM left as a note. And with the Semi-Perfect Cell detail as well as Piccolo training in the RoSaT should be above Semi-Perfect Cell and also obviously translates to how strong he is in Buu saga, the rest looks good to me now.