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Dragon Ball Z Manga Power Scaling

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I don't think Piccolo was way behind the Cell Juniors, but we see he's damaged and they aren't. At the very least, he should scale in terms of durability.

But, the Cell Juniors shouldn't be the reason he has his scaling because they just don't have feats or statements. In this new blog, it'll be a weaker Trunks being presented as a huge threat to S-PC.

Edit: The guide says they have the same speed and power as Cell, but I think we can agree that statement is stupid.
 
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GodlyCharmander said:
Not... really? Statements are not stupid because they seem too "absurd to be true", no. Being a better version of an already established technique that did accomplish the same thing surely helps it, too.

Now, do we have any reason to believe the statement is incorrect?
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Yes, we do. Vegeta and trunks are able to put up a fight against the cell jrs, Grade 3 trunks is far above that, 50% of Goku is above trunks, cell casually slaps gohan who is stronger than 100% Goku.
You see the problem? Cell Jrs are shown to be much weaker than cell.
 
A) Cell was stronger than Gohan and Goku when he made them, both of whom were explicitly superior to everyone.

B) Even when ordered to kill a weakened FSSJ Goku, they couldn't do it.

C) They could fight on par with the strongest Z-Fighters, all of whom are vastly inferior to Cell himself.

D) Remember how inferior everyone is to Goku and Gohan, and how inferior they were to Cell? He had power in reserve the whole time, and seemingly quite a bit judging by how long it took for him to charge up.
 
GodlyCharmander said:
Being a better version of an already established technique that did accomplish the same thing surely helps it, too.
Click to expand...
Except none of the Demon Clan offspring were nearly as powerful as Piccolo was. Two of them were effortlessly defeated by people (i.e., Goku/Tambourine and Yajirobe/Cymbal) who Piccolo either did casually negged or could have; in fact, he damn near killed Goku in their fight. The only one of his offspring even close to that level of power was Drum, but even he was effortlessly slaughtered by an awoken Goku, who Piccolo rivals.
 
I was actually about to mention that myself. Piccolo did have the same memories, abilities and skills as King Piccolo, but he was a perfect clone created by all of his remaining life energy (I can’t get the scan rn, but it’s in chapter 182). He’s even called a reincarnation, which makes sense because he’s half of Kami just like King Piccolo.

Basically, King Piccolo had to die for Piccolo to exist. The Cell Jrs. were casually spat out by Cell without losing all his life, just like Drum, Cymbal or Tambourine.

That being said I don’t think Cell would technically lose any life if he exclusively produced someone’s weaker than him, since he’s ageless or something.
 
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Ok, so Piccolo has no reason to scale above Semi-Perfect Cell nor 2nd Grade Vegeta, much less to the Cell Jrs
 
Piccolo shouldn’t be that far inferior to the Cell Jrs considering that he only took minor damage.
 
ByAsura said:
Piccolo shouldn’t be that far inferior to the Cell Jrs considering that he only took minor damage.
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Neither did Vegeta and Trunks. It seemed like the Cell Jrs. toyed with them more than anything, as they didn't even killed the humans despite them being literal tiers below the Saiyans and Piccolo
 
Gilad_Hyperstar said:
Neither did Vegeta and Trunks. It seemed like the Cell Jrs. toyed with them more than anything, as they didn't even killed the humans despite them being literal tiers below the Saiyans and Piccolo
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True, nothing implies the Cell Jrs were fighting seriously against the Z Fighters
 
And nothing implies that Piccolo scales to Grade 2 Vegeta or Semi-Perfect Cell either. The Cell Jrs. were obviously much stronger than Piccolo so we can't scale him to them
 
That would mean that Shin should probably scale to 4-C+, as regardless to where Piccolo is scale, Post-HBTC Piccolo is still >>>>> Android 17 and Android 18, who are both 4-C+ in their own right, and Pre-HBTC Piccolo matched Android 17 already, though Piccolo was at a disadvantage
 
This means we need to downgrade a shitton of characters to Star level+ (Krillin, Base Saiyans, Android 18, Tien Shinhan, etc)
 
Cell told the Jrs to kill them at a certain point, and they were trading blows with Trunks and Vegeta to the point where Cell commented on it.
 
Because he wasn’t exactly holding his own. But, unlike the other Z-Fighters, he wasn’t out of commission.
 
Vizer04 said:
This means we need to downgrade a shitton of characters to Star level+ (Krillin, Base Saiyans, Android 18, Tien Shinhan, etc)
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If no one disagrees with this then i will message Antvasima or other staff member to apply the changes
 
It’s enough to only downscale him somewhat. I don’t think he should change entire tiers over this.
 
I took a look at the full colour edition.

The damage he receives isn’t even that much greater than Vegeta and Trunks or the Cell Jrs. And this is, again, after Cell tells them to stop messing around and start killing all of them (he previously says kill them or don’t, but he wants them to show the Z-Fighters hell).

Saying Piccolo downscales significantly just doesn’t make sense.
 
Gilad_Hyperstar said:
That would mean that Shin should probably scale to 4-C+, as regardless to where Piccolo is scale, Post-HBTC Piccolo is still >>>>> Android 17 and Android 18, who are both 4-C+ in their own right, and Pre-HBTC Piccolo matched Android 17 already, though Piccolo was at a disadvantage
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What do you think Gilad? Should we scale Piccolo to the Cell Jrs?
 
Vizer04 said:
What do you think Gilad? Should we scale Piccolo to the Cell Jrs?
Click to expand...
Ehhh Idk. We don't have much evidence for scaling them, but I guess that if Piccolo was relatively standing after their onslaught, it might be enough to significantly downscale from them
 
GyroNutz said:
Not entirely sure what's being discussed atm, in regards to post-time chamber Piccolo I don't think there's much suggesting that Piccolo can fight the Cell Jrs. Most of that fight was off-screen, and Cell stated that since Goku was exhausted, Trunks and Vegeta were the only ones able to fight back. Sure Piccolo was on his feet the whole time, but all that means is that Piccolo did better than the human Z fighters, which seems obvious.
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Well, the main intended issue here is that we were going to decide proper speed scaling for all of the DBZ characters, as I unfortunately likely allowed some inappropriate scaling to be applied, due to not getting sufficient staff help at the time.

However, this discussion has turned so long, and derailed so much, that either yourself, @AKM sama , @ByAsura , or @DarkDragonMedeus need to start a new thread with this purpose, as it is very important to get done.
 
Vizer04 said:
Ok, i think there's nothing else to discuss. All we need to do is wait for @AKM sama to evaluate the scaling.
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Can somebody write an easy to understand explanation post regarding what he needs to evaluate please?
 
I don't really have a problem with downscaling Piccolo to the Cell Jrs, it's just that there's only about two panels that vaguely imply that and Cell didn't comment on Piccolo's performance, meaning he was far weaker than Vegeta and Trunks who were having major troubles fighting individual Cell Jrs. Really doesn't seem all that solid.
 
GyroNutz said:
I don't really have a problem with downscaling Piccolo to the Cell Jrs, it's just that there's only about two panels that vaguely imply that and Cell didn't comment on Piccolo's performance, meaning he was far weaker than Vegeta and Trunks who were having major troubles fighting individual Cell Jrs. Really doesn't seem all that solid.
Click to expand...
This is actually why I think Piccolo shouldn't scale, since the manga doesn't give you any indication that he does. Yes he survived the beatings, but so did everyone else, so it isn't saying much. Piccolo was stated to be a lot stronger after coming out of the chamber, but even he admits he can't do much to Cell
 
Cell Jrs. can't do much to Cell either. All this does is put him below half power Goku and maybe Grade 3 Trunks.

The thing is, yeah we only see two panels, but that's because the entire fight is off-screen.

They were holding back against everyone else. It's their priority here to show them hell, which is why the weaker ones were knocked out. Even when ordered to kill them, Piccolo isn't very harmed.
 
I can't believe this shit, I stopped receiving notifications.
I agree with asura that piccolo should still scale to cell jrs. All characters above freeza's feat have at least because they significantly scale above their values.
Asura how the blog going?
 
We're still discussing some stuff, so it's unfinished.

Also, I just don't remember everything.
 
ByAsura said:
We're still discussing some stuff, so it's unfinished.

Also, I just don't remember everything.
Click to expand...
We agreed to retain cells multiplier. Apply the 2x multipliers to speed. Retain buu's 2x multiplier from absorption. I don't remember what we decided in the 2 arms thing, if I recall, akmman disagreed. I think we should also get rid of the likely kaioken 10x thing. The rest is good. You can scrap vegito's 50x multiplier for now as we didn't reach a conclusion.
Some scaling changed however the values are identical so don't worry. That's it.
Once you finish the blog, I will re-edit the profiles to fix justifications etc then we can discuss the speed multipliers and that stuff.
 
We didn't agree on Cell or Buu. That kind of died off when we started to argue about Vegito. I can maybe agree to Buu, but Cell still doesn't have enough evidence.

I don't remember anything about the 2x multiplier. What's that for exactly?

By Kaioken x10, do you mean Goku scaling linearly above Frieza via power levels, or Goku just having it in general?

We'll discuss Vegito in another thread.
 
ByAsura said:
We didn't agree on Cell or Buu. That kind of died off when we started to argue about Vegito. I can maybe agree to Buu, but Cell still doesn't have enough evidence.

I don't remember anything about the 2x multiplier. What's that for exactly?

Why the Kaioken x10 thing?

I'll do that in another thread.
Click to expand...
You actually did. When I told you why cell should retain it in SPC, you said "fair enough" or something like that.
You also said something similar about buu. Actually it's more plausible for cell than it is for buu, because cells amp is hreater than strictly an addictive amp.

The 2x multiplier is basically whenever a character grows 2x stronger, they also get 2x faster. For example, android 17, cell saga Goku, or SSJ2 Gohan.

Right now, kaioken 10x pre zenkai in namek is treated as a "likely" because Goku may have been overestimating his abilities which is why we have likely MFTL+ and not a full tier.

Alright.
 
I checked, I agreed to the Cell thing (mostly because I didn't want to keep arguing, tbh), but we never came to a conclusion on Buu, it was just 'some boosts are non-linear, some might not be.'

Already doing that, so we're fine.

I strongly doubt that, but ok.
 
ByAsura said:
I checked, I agreed to the Cell thing (mostly because I didn't want to keep arguing, tbh), but we never came to a conclusion on Buu, it was just 'some boosts are non-linear, some might not be.'

Already doing that, so we're fine.

I strongly doubt that, but ok.
Click to expand...
Well you seem to lean towards agreeing woth buu so I think it's safe to say that the 2x multiplier should stay.
Right.
I strongly doubt that Goku was overestimating himself too if that's what you meant. That's why I wanna get rid of it, as it also interferes with the AP scaling.
 
I'm not really. Though I wouldn't say I strongly disagree. I'd say I'm somewhere close to neutral, but mostly don't care.

I want to get rid of it too. It's pretty illogical for Goku of all people (who was not only the singular person capable of using it successfully, but had also become far stronger than his previous Kaioken x4 in base), annoying to integrate, and this thread has gone on long enough.
 
ByAsura said:
They were holding back against everyone else. It's their priority here to show them hell, which is why the weaker ones were knocked out. Even when ordered to kill them, Piccolo isn't very harmed.
Click to expand...
Issue with this is that despite already having the human fighters beat, the Cell Jrs never killed a single fighter.
 
GyroNutz said:
Issue with this is that despite already having the human fighters beat, the Cell Jrs never killed a single fighter.
Click to expand...
Agreed. Even the humans didn't die after the Cell Jrs. attacked them, so should they all scale to the Cell Jrs. because they didn't kill anyone despite being ordered to? No, because it was made clear by Cell that none of them, aside from Vegeta and Trunks can hold their own against them.

That also includes SSJ Goku, who was very weakened after depleting all his stamina against Perfect Cell, so when Semi-Perfect Cell blew up, his AP doesn't scale to Goku at full power, but to an extremely tired Goku that can't even hold a candle to the Cell Jrs, so Semi-Perfect Cell's higher rating should probably be removed
 
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