Dragon Ball Z Manga Power Scaling

[FluffyCreatureZ]

Hello.
Let's fix the scaling and the profiles, I will mainly be focusing on the android and Boo saga sections of Dragon Ball Z, I will build off of this blog. https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:DarkDragonMedeus/Dragon_Ball_Z_Canon_Stat_Explanations
Let us begin.

Planet Vegeta
First up, a new calculation for Freeza's planet busting feat replaces the old one (4.89 tenatons). https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/U...ll_Z:_Frieza_destroys_Planet_Vegeta_Re-calced
This makes SSJ Goku star level (244.5 tenatons) and SSJ trunks star level+ (489 tenatons). This is all good but has yet to be applied to the profiles.

Android #17 and #18
During the final fight between future Gohan and #17, #17 states that in their last battle he only used 50% of his power against Gohan (chapter 397.5 page 11). 3 years later, future trunks is stated by Bulma to still be weaker than future Gohan before he died (chapter 397.5 page 16), but this same Gohan told trunks that he was not as strong as Goku was before he passed away (chapter 397.5 page 3), and this Goku scales to Vegeta who fought #18 and badly lost. With this, we can derive this scaling chain, Future Trunks < Future Gohan < Goku < Vegeta <<< #18/#17 (2x Future Gohan), this will make then androids and those who scale to them star level
+ (489 tenatons). This will also make Semi-perfect large star level (978 tenatons).

SSJ Grade 4 Goku
Next up is Cell saga SSJ Goku. After leaving the chamber, he showcased his power to Korin which made everyone freak out (chapter 391 page 10) and Vegeta even said that Goku had surpassed him (chapter 391 page 14), it turns out that Goku was only using half power and was still stronger than everybody there (chapter 391 page 11), this makes him at least 2x stronger than them at full power which is (1956 tenatons), this scales to Shin, Cell saga and Boo saga Gohan, Perfect cell, Dabura and the base forms of Boo saga saiyans. Katchin busters scale far above that.

Supreme Kai Shin
Next up is Shin. Shin's celestial body large star level+ calculation was debunked in this thread as he doesn't actually create celestial bodies, but he still scales to Cell saga SSJ Goku. Now there is a lot of things we need to talk about here. First this is wrong.

• Shin is stated to be "Dimensions stronger" than Piccolo >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 596.4c, possibly >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 1491c and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 978 Tenatons Scales to Shin, SSJ Goku Android saga, and base Adult Gohan.

• Dabura is much stronger than Shin, and equal to SSJ2 Adult Gohan and Perfect Cell (Prior to Super Perfect Cell). There is a 50x multiplier at least since better than SSJ which is at least 50x >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 29820c, possibly >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 74550c and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 2.05 Foe.

Boo saga base Gohan is not stronger than Shin, Gohan's power stagnated during the 7 year time skip, and he is equal to his Cell saga self as a SSJ and weaker as a SSJ2 (chapter 444 page 7). Gohan did not use SSJ2 against Dabura when they fought, he was a regular SSJ. Thus Perfect Cell and Dabura do not scale to that and simply scale higher than Goku and Shin.
This is where the important part begins. After Gohan was defeated by Majin Boo, he was healed by Kibito and became strong enough to pull and lift the Z sword (chapter 472 page 5-6), something which Shin could not do. Boo saga base Goku was also able to perform this feat (chapter 478 page 6). This means that Goku, Vegeta and Gohan would scale above shin in their base forms but that's not all.
When all four where in Babidi's space ship, we got a lot of hints that supreme kai was weaker than the Saiyan's base forms. Shin was worried about Vegeta fighting Pui Pui alone (chapter 449 page 5-6), and was shocked at Vegeta's base power after he defeated Pui Pui (chapter 449 page 14), Shin was also shocked that they viewed Dabura as fodder (DB manga chapter 450 pg 5). Shin was also worried about Goku fighting Yakon alone and suggested they all fight him together multiple times (chapter 450 page 9 and chapter 451 page 8), he also says that the Saiyans have surpassed his power (DB manga chapter 452 page 2). Dabura also stated that yakon is strong enough to kill everyone there despite knowing about supreme kai's power and Goku is superior to Yakon in his base (chapter 450 page 3), and this is all consistent with Vegeta saying that he can beat everyone and win the tournament without using SSJ despite knowing that Piccolo is going to participate (chapter 430 page 7).
This all proves that, Shin = Cell saga SSJ Goku < Base Gohan < Base Vegeta < Base Goku <<< SSJ Goku. Boo saga characters who can turn SSJ scale to (97,800 tenatons or 4.09 foe I think). Actually we can probably upscale to large star+ since this is the superiority >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>8 foe, so they'd be large star level+ or around (11 foe), but that can be discussed later.

Pre-ROSAT Gotenks
First I have to talk about this.

• Gotenks possess the power rivaling that of a SSJ2 in his base form given his power even surprised Majin Buu and survived the same beating that otherwise killed Majin Vegeta. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 29820c, possibly >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 74550c and >>>> 2.106 Kilofoe.

I'm surprised we are scaling the first base Gotenks like this. The arguments for scaling like this are that first, Gotenks sensed SSJ2 Vegeta's power and knew he wouldn't stand a chance against Boo yet still thought he'd be able to beat Boo (chapter 480 page 11), and this is supported by Krillin, who watched Majin Vegeta fight Buu, stating that Gotenks might be able to do something vs Boo (chapter 480 page 12), and there's also his feat of surviving Boo's beating which almost killed Majin Vegeta. The arguments against this are that he's an overconfident arrogant brat and lost anyway, and that he sensed Boo and SSJ3 Goku's power and should've known how powerful Boo was yet still blundered. I think scaling Gotenks like this is fine enough since he does have that feat so I'm going to keep going.

Post ROSAT Gotenks

• Gotenks in SSJ is 50x that and being even stronger in SSJ3. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 1491000c, possibly >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 3727500c and >>>> 105.3 Kilofoe.

This completely ignores the power boost Gotenks gained after Goten and Trunks trained in the ROSAT. Piccolo thought that Gotenks only stood a chance in SSJ, and was confused on why they'd start in base (chapter 489 page 10), but after they fused, Piccolo was extremely impressed with their growth and thought he stood a chance (chapter 489 page 12), meaning that base Gotenks after training in the ROSAT surpassed his previous SSJ form. After this we have SSJ3 Gotenks who's at least 50x above that, then Ultimate Gohan who's even higher, Buutenks who's 2x above SSJ3 Gotenks, Vegito scales to that, Super Vegito is 50x above that. And that makes the new Super Vegito values (526.5 megafoe and 3727500000 c, possibly 9318750000 c)

Other

Recoome blitzes the combined might of Vegeta, and an amplified Gohan and Krillin, but Vegeta's the only one with most of the weight so >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 2.982c and >>>>>>>>>>> 79.82 Zettatons for Recoome, Burter, and Jeice.

• Son Goku returns with a PL of 90,000 blitzing the combined might of Recoome, Burter, and Jeice without even trying. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 2.982c and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 79.28 Zettatons for base Goku.

Recoome and the Ginyu force are not 79.28 Zettatons, that's a mistake, they are still baseline planet level.

• Kami is well above them. >>>>>>>> 29.6 Exatons and >>>>> 0.1c.
• Piccolo Jr and Teen Goku are even stronger than him. >>>>>>>>> 29.6 Exatons and >>>>>> 0.1c. This wraps of Dragon Ball.

Piccolo and Goku are way way stronger than kami. Give them 3 arrows not 1.

Sorry if the scans are not working, that's why I left chapter and page numbers.
Finish.

 

[Vizer04]

Completely agreed!

 

[Urshani]

agree

 

[Mr.Cinos15]

Iirc Recoome, Burter, and Jeice scale to 79 Zettatons because their power levels are higher than Saiyan Saga KKx4 Goku, who scales to that.

 

[Spinoirr]

Agree of course

 

[Tarang123]

This is extremely in-depth. I’ll probably make a more structured response when I get some more time to look over it in detail

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Looking good mostly, but I'll comment later.

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

Bump

Iirc Recoome, Burter, and Jeice scale to 79 Zettatons because their power levels are higher than Saiyan Saga KKx4 Goku, who scales to that.

Do they have offical power levels putting them over 32,000? And good catch, base goku is put at 79 zettatons but ginyu who actually scales to that and kaioken 2 and 4 scale to 59 zettatons and 59 x 2/4 respectively. That needs to change too, it's inconsistent in the scaling chain.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Recoome - 65000
Burter - 64000
Jeice - 62000
Ginyu 120,000
I agree on the 79 Zettatons upgrade for them though.

Also, I do realize I didn't take into account that Gohan got a massive Zenkai boost from his fight with Buu moments before the Z Sword feat, so agree on Dabura and Nonsuper Perfect Cell's downgrade. But I might need some time to correct the big numbers later. Also, some of the urls are broken and make sure they are uploaded to more secure platforms such as Discordapp or Imgur; illegal manga streaming sites are off limits. But the 50% statement from 17 looks good if I see the scan.

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

Recoome - 65000
Burter - 64000
Jeice - 62000
Ginyu 120,000
I agree on the 79 Zettatons upgrade for them though.

Also, I do realize I didn't take into account that Gohan got a massive Zenkai boost from his fight with Buu moments before the Z Sword feat, so agree on Dabura and Nonsuper Perfect Cell's downgrade. But I might need some time to correct the big numbers later. Also, some of the urls are broken and make sure they are uploaded to more secure platforms such as Discordapp or Imgur; illegal manga streaming sites are off limits. But the 50% statement from 17 looks good if I see the scan.

If those battle powers are official then the ginyu force, Goku and ginyu himself will be 79 zettatons, KK2 will be ~158 zettatons and KK4 will be ~316 zettatons.
Yeah my bad about the scans, tell me about the ones which aren't working that you want to see. Here are the future Gohan scans.

 

[Vizer04]

If those battle powers are official

I don't think they are, since Jeice believed 60,000 was above his own power and those of Burter and Recoome:

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

I don't think they are, since Jeice believed 60,000 was above his own power and those of Burter and Recoome:

He just said that 60,000 is higher than any saiyan, he didn't imply that they were above his own, actually he compares it to himself which is accurate to the battle powers dark dagon man gave, though I would like the source for those.

 

[Vizer04]

He just said that 60,000 is higher than any saiyan, he didn't imply that they were above his own, actually he compares it to himself which is accurate to the battle powers dark dagon man gave, though I would like the source for those.

Ginyu knows that Goku effortlessly defeated Burter, Recoome and Jeice so they can't possibly be above 60,000

 

[ZetaMarishi]

And Recoome basically no sold a 30000 power level Vegeta's strongest attack with mostly just scratch damage while fighting only half-seriously.

That's the most we really get about their power overall. Above 30k and below 60k.

 

[Damage3245]

Shin is stated to be "Dimensions stronger" than Piccolo >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 596.4c, possibly >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 1491c

What is the point in using this many arrows? It seems desparately like you're trying to overstate the power-gap.

You might as well represented it with this:

Shin is stated to be "Dimensions stronger" than Piccolo >>> 596.4c, possibly >>> 1491c

 

[Mr.Cinos15]

I read in DB wiki that Vegeta stated that their PL was five times that of Goku's during the Saiyan Saga, is that true?

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Because a lot of characters are in the scaling chain, each example of character A > character B has somewhere between > and >>> arrows each. And add them together for each. Also, it's explained that the arrows themselves mean little. Plus, everyone is technically a lot faster than the initial Raditz saga Piccolo feat.

 

[EmilioRory10]

I read in DB wiki that Vegeta stated that their PL was five times that of Goku's during the Saiyan Saga, is that true?

does it have any citations on that part?

 

[Mr.Cinos15]

I can't seem to find where I read it, so never mind.

Edit: I found the wiki, but it doesn't have any citations (although supposedly King Kai was the one to say it, not Vegeta like I thought so my bad).

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

bump

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

sigh, bump.

 

[Tarang123]

You should probably ping some other staff members

 

[KLOL506]

Recoome - 65000
Burter - 64000
Jeice - 62000
Ginyu 120,000
I agree on the 79 Zettatons upgrade for them though.

Also, I do realize I didn't take into account that Gohan got a massive Zenkai boost from his fight with Buu moments before the Z Sword feat, so agree on Dabura and Nonsuper Perfect Cell's downgrade. But I might need some time to correct the big numbers later. Also, some of the urls are broken and make sure they are uploaded to more secure platforms such as Discordapp or Imgur; illegal manga streaming sites are off limits. But the 50% statement from 17 looks good if I see the scan.

Where's the 79 zettatons come frome again?

 

[KLOL506]

Also is there any official statement that Trunks is superior to the combined might of Frieza and King Cold?

Because IIRC we concluded in a CRT where DontTalkDT stated that you wouldn't scale to the combined might of two individuals with the same AP if you happened to one-shot them, and that two of those dudes attacking you at the same time doesn't mean that you scale to their AP combined, unless there are explicit statements indicating as such (Like "being superior to their combined might" or "their punches combining together to double in power" or something like that). So that's super important.

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

Where's the 79 zettatons come frome again?

Scaling above 32000, kaioken gokus power level. I don't know about the ginyu force but goku and ginyu himself definitely scale. I will post about that scaling after we discuss the cell saga and buu saga stuff since that's the main topic and leave frieza saga for later.

Also is there any official statement that Trunks is superior to the combined might of Frieza and King Cold?

Because IIRC we concluded in a CRT where DontTalkDT that you wouldn't scale to the combined might of two individuals with the same AP if you happened to one-shot them, and that two of those dudes attacking you at the same time doesn't mean that you scale to their AP combined, unless there are explicit statements indicating as such (Like "being superior to their combined might" or "their punches combining together to double in power" or something like that). So that's super important.

I don't know. I will read that part of the manga to refresh my memory, but ask dark dagon man, he's the one who wrote the blog so he knows.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

I agree

 

[KLOL506]

Scaling above 32000, kaioken gokus power level. I don't know about the ginyu force but goku and ginyu himself definitely scale. I will post about that scaling after we discuss the cell saga and buu saga stuff since that's the main topic and leave frieza saga for later.

Oh yeah, I remember now.

KKx3 Goku is 59.6 zettatons (Baseline 5-B), divided by 3 is 19.867 zettatons (Low 5-B), times 4 (KKx4) is 79.467 zettatons. Vegeta's AP is around baseline while his dura scales to KKx4 Goku (Since he took Goku's KKx4 Kamehameha in the face and was completely unaffected, only growing pissed beyond measure).

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

I agree to most points overall, but I like to point this:

Android #17 and #18
During the final fight between future Gohan and #17, #17 states that in their last battle he only used 50% of his power against Gohan (chapter 397.5 page 11). 3 years later, future trunks is stated by Bulma to still be weaker than future Gohan before he died (chapter 397.5 page 16), but this same Gohan told trunks that he was not as strong as Goku was before he passed away (chapter 397.5 page 3), and this Goku scales to Vegeta who fought #18 and badly lost.

1) The Goku you're mentioning isn't the main Goku, but Future Goku, who is weaker than his Android Saga main timeline self due to them training more intensly for the Androids

2) Bulma stated that if Goku would be around alongside the rest when they fought the Androids, the world wouldn't be in the state it is now

3) Vegeta was only slightly inferior to Android 18 for most of the fight. She begun to stomp him once she managed to exhaust him after he wasted his stamina, which was noted by Piccolo as well

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

I agree to most points overall, but I like to point this:

1) The Goku you're mentioning isn't the main Goku, but Future Goku, who is weaker than his Android Saga main timeline self due to them training more intensly for the Androids

2) Bulma stated that if Goku would be around alongside the rest when they fought the Androids, the world wouldn't be in the state it is now

3) Vegeta was only slightly inferior to Android 18 for most of the fight. She begun to stomp him once she managed to exhaust him after he wasted his stamina, which was noted by Piccolo as well

1) so we use yardrat Goku instead of post 3 year training Goku?
2) I think she just means that with his help they would've beaten the androids not that he'd easily defeat them, since that Goku would get washed by #17 and #18. But what is the point here?
3) okay so vegeta scales to #18 right?
So trunks < gohan < goku <<< vegeta < #18/ #17 (2x gohan)

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

1) so we use yardrat Goku instead of post 3 year training Goku?

Yes, because after the 3 years Goku trained much more intensly compared to Future Goku

2) I think she just means that with his help they would've beaten the androids not that he'd easily defeat them, since that Goku would get washed by #17 and #18. But what is the point here?

That Goku should roughly scale to Androids as well, since if with Goku's help they've been defeated, that means Goku's strength is enough to make a big difference

3) okay so vegeta scales to #18 right?
So trunks < gohan < goku <<< vegeta < #18/ #17 (2x gohan)

Vegeta scales slightly below her, and while Goku's full power is unknown in the saga, we can safely assume that SSJ Vegeta > Post Yardrat SSJ Goku and Android Saga SSJ Goku while sick

Nowhere it was mentioned Vegeta is stronger than full power Goku.

So scaling would be:

SSJ Future Trunks < SSJ Future Gohan < Post Yardrat SSJ Goku < SSJ Future Goku (by the time of his death) < Android Saga SSJ Goku <=> SSJ Vegeta < Android 18 < Android 17

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

Yes, because after the 3 years Goku trained much more intensly compared to Future Goku

That Goku should roughly scale to Androids as well, since if with Goku's help they've been defeated, that means Goku's strength is enough to make a big difference

Vegeta scales slightly below her, and while Goku's full power is unknown in the saga, we can safely assume that SSJ Vegeta > Post Yardrat SSJ Goku and Android Saga SSJ Goku while sick

Nowhere it was mentioned Vegeta is stronger than full power Goku.

So scaling would be:

SSJ Future Trunks < SSJ Future Gohan < Post Yardrat SSJ Goku < SSJ Future Goku (by the time of his death) < Android Saga SSJ Goku <=> SSJ Vegeta < Android 18 < Android 17

Yeah that's scaling chain is what I had in mind, present Goku would be comparable to vegeta, so I guess they'd both scale to twice Gohan's value but downscale from 17. Is there anything else that we have to discuss or we agree?

 

[Kin201]

Did we take into account that Future #17 and #18 are far weaker than their main timeline selves? Also, didn't Trunks train and become stronger after 3 years time skip as well? He might have surpassed Future Gohan at the time he came back to the past a second time.

 

[Spinoirr]

Fun fact

Trunks actually was useing ssj grade 4 when he killed 17 and18 in his timeline

 

[Kin201]

Fun fact

Trunks actually was useing ssj grade 4 when he killed 17 and18 in his timeline

But when he killed Cell, he just used regular ssj right?

 

[Spinoirr]

But when he killed Cell, he just used regular ssj right?

Well regular ssj after the cell games is ssj grade 4

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Fun fact

Trunks actually was useing ssj grade 4 when he killed 17 and18 in his timeline

He actually used Grade 1 against the Androids. He didn't perfect SSJ until Future Cell came

 

[Spinoirr]

Full power ssj (ssj grade 4) Goku and trunks have the same aura (this is trunks before he kills 17 and 18 in his timeline)

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Did we take into account that Future #17 and #18 are far weaker than their main timeline selves? Also, didn't Trunks train and become stronger after 3 years time skip as well? He might have surpassed Future Gohan at the time he came back to the past a second time.

Trunks implied that he's still not strong enough to fight the Androids, and considering the Future Androids loved to toy with Trunks to prolong his suffering, that is why he thought they were weaker than the Present ones, who went to Full Power right away

 

[Spinoirr]

He actually used Grade 1 against the Androids. He didn't perfect SSJ until Future Cell came

Then I have no idea why the dragon ball wiki has that image above in the ssj full power gallery

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Yeah that's scaling chain is what I had in mind, present Goku would be comparable to vegeta, so I guess they'd both scale to twice Gohan's value but downscale from 17. Is there anything else that we have to discuss or we agree?

Pretty much. Android 17 stated that Vegeta + Trunks + Piccolo are > Android 18, as he said even she isn't enough to take all of them at once

Android 17 also stated in DBS that Goku would've beated him if they would fight when Android 17 got awakened, so it's unclear with Goku, but definitely true for Vegeta