Dragon Ball Z Manga Power Scaling

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Keep in mind, if we keep the Kaioken x10 part and the fact that the SSJ multiplier is still a 50x speed boost as well as a speed boost. But note the 3rd form Frieza being faster than a 10x Ginyu saga Goku as a likely. The end point is actually At least Massively FTL, likely Massively FTL+ scaling from Frieza saga SSJ Goku.

Why would it be likely when we have clear evidence that Goku don't even scale to Third Form Frieza? He already downscales from Second Form Frieza, so Frieza's speed would definitely be faster than Namek Saga KK10 Goku

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I may have missed out on some discussion, but did AKM Sama specifically accept 3rd Form Frieza being or even 2nd form Frieza 10x faster than Ginyu saga Goku? I personally don't mind that, and I may not have known of other staff members accepted it. But what was AKM's thoughts I'd like to know. I'm not saying his thoughts automatically override everyone else's. But I at the very least wanted to know his final thoughts on that part before we progress before we conclude. And if that is the case, the conclusion is that SSJ Goku is just barely Massively FTL+ until we once again debate the 50x speed multiplier.

But I already know he's very insistent of not using any multipliers beyond Frieza saga. I may not agree with that practice, but it seems I'm outranked.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

I may have missed out on some discussion, but did AKM Sama specifically accept 3rd Form Frieza being or even 2nd form Frieza 10x faster than Ginyu saga Goku? I personally don't mind that, and I may not have known of other staff members accepted it. But what was AKM's thoughts I'd like to know. I'm not saying his thoughts automatically override everyone else's. But I at the very least wanted to know his final thoughts on that part before we progress before we conclude. And if that is the case, the conclusion is that SSJ Goku is just barely Massively FTL+ until we once again debate the 50x speed multiplier.

Goku explicably say that he stands no chance against Third Form Frieza, and we already accept that he downscales from Second Form Frieza

But I already know he's very insistent of not using any multipliers beyond Frieza saga. I may not agree with that practice, but it seems I'm outranked.

Not doing something because he says so is him appealing to his authority. That shouldn't be the deciding to why things may pass or not

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Well, it's less "Because AKM said so" and more like because the multiplier stacking rules are admittedly too strict in certain areas; which is something that could be talked about in its own thread tbh. But AKM isn't trying to abuse appeal to authority and if it is happening; it's at worst happening unintentionally. Then again, everyone else also means well so not going to hold anything against anyone.

I am however going to say I personally support Frieza being 10x faster than Ginyu saga Goku outright at this point.

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

That AP blog looks fine for now. We can edit characters' AP sections based on that and link it in the justifications.


Wdym? It was already decided that we are going to cap speed to a certain limit because of lack of feats. And it was decided that cap needs to be reduced to MFTL. Until you make a staff thread and get the Buu thing accepted.

Yeah that's different, I'm talking about his asura has the likely kaioken 10x thing removed and everyone is on board with removing it. Basically, MFTL+ should be a full tier.

 

[Vizer04]

I may have missed out on some discussion, but did AKM Sama specifically accept 3rd Form Frieza being or even 2nd form Frieza 10x faster than Ginyu saga Goku?

AKM sama accepted it on this thread

 

[Antvasima]

Keep in mind, if we keep the Kaioken x10 part and the fact that the SSJ multiplier is still a 50x speed boost as well as a speed boost. But note the 3rd form Frieza being faster than a 10x Ginyu saga Goku as a likely. The end point is actually At least Massively FTL, likely Massively FTL+ scaling from Frieza saga SSJ Goku.

Given a simple correction to the double checking as far as "Only using the pre Android saga speed rating jumps" that AKM left as a note. And with the Semi-Perfect Cell detail as well as Piccolo training in the RoSaT should be above Semi-Perfect Cell and also obviously translates to how strong he is in Buu saga, the rest looks good to me now.

I may have missed out on some discussion, but did AKM Sama specifically accept 3rd Form Frieza being or even 2nd form Frieza 10x faster than Ginyu saga Goku? I personally don't mind that, and I may not have known of other staff members accepted it. But what was AKM's thoughts I'd like to know. I'm not saying his thoughts automatically override everyone else's. But I at the very least wanted to know his final thoughts on that part before we progress before we conclude. And if that is the case, the conclusion is that SSJ Goku is just barely Massively FTL+ until we once again debate the 50x speed multiplier.

But I already know he's very insistent of not using any multipliers beyond Frieza saga. I may not agree with that practice, but it seems I'm outranked.

Well, it's less "Because AKM said so" and more like because the multiplier stacking rules are admittedly too strict in certain areas; which is something that could be talked about in its own thread tbh. But AKM isn't trying to abuse appeal to authority and if it is happening; it's at worst happening unintentionally. Then again, everyone else also means well so not going to hold anything against anyone.

I am however going to say I personally support Frieza being 10x faster than Ginyu saga Goku outright at this point.

@AKM sama @ByAsura @GyroNutz

What do you think that we should do here?

 

[ByAsura]

I'll let everyone else handle the speed because I couldn't care less at this point.

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

I think everyone supports the likely kaioken 10x thing being removed so lets wait to see what akm will say.
Anyway is it fine if I apply the changes in asura's blog? I'll also add it in the verse page.

 

[ByAsura]

Keep the speed and AP blogs separate anyway. It's neater.

 

[Antvasima]

I think everyone supports the likely kaioken 10x thing being removed so lets wait to see what akm will say.
Anyway is it fine if I apply the changes in asura's blog? I'll also add it in the verse page.

I personally would not mind.

@AKM sama @DarkDragonMedeus @GyroNutz

What do you think?

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I think removing the low end of 2nd and 3rd form Frieza's and those who upscale from them, and removing the likely sign and treating them as outright faster than a 10x Kaioken Ginyu saga Goku is fine by me. As I already said.

 

[Vizer04]

I think removing the low end of 2nd and 3rd form Frieza's and those who upscale from them, and removing the likely sign and treating them as outright faster than a 10x Kaioken Ginyu saga Goku is fine by me. As I already said.

I agree with this

 

[AKM sama]

But I already know he's very insistent of not using any multipliers beyond Frieza saga. I may not agree with that practice, but it seems I'm outranked.

Not doing something because he says so is him appealing to his authority. That shouldn't be the deciding to why things may pass or not

First I'd like to clarify on this. It's not only me. I had called in some more staff members in this very thread on some page number I don't remember, like Prom, Ovens, Damage...and they were all also against it. Nobody is going to accept those speeds without any feat, that's just how it is. It would be absolutely crazy to rate someone's speed as say, 5000x of the best speed feat, without any other supporting feat. But enough on that topic for now. We have discussed it enough. If somehow Fluffy's staff thread about Buu's speed gets accepted, we can probably revisit it.

AKM sama accepted it on this thread

I did accept it, yes. Don't know why everybody agreed to not use it in this thread, but if that is the decision taken by everyone, I don't really care. I can adjust the speed blog accordingly. (I just want this thread to be over.)

 

[Vizer04]

I can adjust the speed blog accordingly.

Yes, please do it

 

[AKM sama]

I have removed the likely x10 from the speed blog as suggested: https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:AKM_sama/Dragon_Ball_Z:_Speed_Scaling

Now we can edit the pages according to the AP and speed blogs while linking to them.

 

[Vizer04]

I have removed the likely x10 from the speed blog as suggested: https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:AKM_sama/Dragon_Ball_Z:_Speed_Scaling

Now we can edit the pages according to the AP and speed blogs while linking to them.

Ok, thank you so much

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

It was agreed that he should scale flatly from the times 10 increase in speed rather than times 4, as we already accept this for AP too

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for helping out. Is somebody willing to apply what has been agreed here then?

 

[AKM sama]

It was agreed that he should scale flatly from the times 10 increase in speed rather than times 4, as we already accept this for AP too

Oh wait. Dang! Okay, let me ask this once again for clarity.

The question here is whether post-Zenkai Goku scales above a hypothetical KKx10 Goku. We know post-Zenkai Goku scales above his KKx4 self because he is already able to use KKx4 and still said that he might not be able to win against Freeza. That's concrete.

But since it is likely that Goku could be taking into consideration his ability to go KKx10 (which is untested and completely hypothetical at this point), we can say it is likely for post-Zenkai Goku to scale above his hypothetical KKx10 self. But, this is not something that is concrete. It should still have likely.

This doesn't affect AP because post-Zenkai Goku scales above 4.89 tenatons which is based on Freeza's feat. It doesn't come from a hypothetical KKx10 AP value. As far as AP values go, both post-Zenkai and KKx10 Goku scale above 4.89 tenatons which is Freeza's feat. Both of these values aren't dependent on each other.

 

[Vizer04]

However, 2nd Form Frieza scales above KKx10 (i made a whole CRT to prove this, and many staff members agreed) and Goku is not the type of person that overestimates his own abilities, so the "likely" rating shouldn't be applied.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

The question here is whether post-Zenkai Goku scales above a hypothetical KKx10 Goku. We know post-Zenkai Goku scales above his KKx4 self because he is already able to use KKx4 and still said that he might not be able to win against Freeza. That's concrete.

Yes. We know for a fact Post-Zenkai Goku is stronger than Namek Saga KK10 Goku. Goku said he can't win against Third Form Frieza, and already downscales from Second Form Frieza, while after his zenkai during his battle against Frieza, he managed to fight well against Frieza in his Final Form, the same Frieza that made all his other forms look like jokes, and effortlessly stomped Vegeta, who was stronger than his Third Form

Basically:

Post-Zenkai Goku = Final Form Frieza (Suppressed) >> Frieza Saga Vegeta > Third Form Frieza >>> Namek Saga KK10 Goku

He pretty evidently scales above him, as well as Third Form and Second Form Frieza, as both were accepted to be above Goku. This is also supported by power levels, as with KK10 Goku's power is 900k, while Frieza's is > 1 million

 

[Vizer04]

Bump

 

[Antvasima]

Yes. We know for a fact Post-Zenkai Goku is stronger than Namek Saga KK10 Goku. Goku said he can't win against Third Form Frieza, and already downscales from Second Form Frieza, while after his zenkai during his battle against Frieza, he managed to fight well against Frieza in his Final Form, the same Frieza that made all his other forms look like jokes, and effortlessly stomped Vegeta, who was stronger than his Third Form

Basically:

Post-Zenkai Goku = Final Form Frieza (Suppressed) >> Frieza Saga Vegeta > Third Form Frieza >>> Namek Saga KK10 Goku

He pretty evidently scales above him, as well as Third Form and Second Form Frieza, as both were accepted to be above Goku. This is also supported by power levels, as with KK10 Goku's power is 900k, while Frieza's is > 1 million

@AKM sama

 

[AKM sama]

However, 2nd Form Frieza scales above KKx10 (i made a whole CRT to prove this, and many staff members agreed) and Goku is not the type of person that overestimates his own abilities, so the "likely" rating shouldn't be applied.

I guess 2nd form Freeza should "likely" scale above KKx10 if that is the case, although it won't change the AP rating because he'd still scale above 4.9 tenatons in either case.

We know for a fact Post-Zenkai Goku is stronger than Namek Saga KK10 Goku.

This, once again, is a hypothetical scenario. Namek saga KKx10 Goku doesn't exist. So any scaling off of him should not be concrete and should be accompanied by "likely".

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

This, once again, is a hypothetical scenario. Namek saga KKx10 Goku doesn't exist. So any scaling off of him should not be concrete and should be accompanied by "likely".

I literally showed proof why this isn't a "likely", only for you to completely ignore everything I said and presented no counter arguements against my point. Goku could go KK10 if he needed to. The fact that he didn't do it doesn't mean it it isn't possible for him to do it, especially when he directly confirms earlier that he's capable of using Kaioken times 10 when arriving to Namek. Goku doesn't lie nor does he overestimates himself regarding his power, so he's a pretty reliable source regading his own power

 

[ByAsura]

We’re already using x10 to get Namek Goku to Low 4-C, so haven’t we already accepted the multiplier in this/another thread? Both are also more recent than that other thread where it was rejected.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

We’re already using x10 to get Namek Goku to Low 4-C, so haven’t we already accepted the multiplier in this/another thread? Both are also more recent than that other thread where it was rejected.

Base Goku actually downscales from Frieza who is High 5-A+, so there isn't Low 4-C here. Regardless, the multiplier was accepted in a different thread

 

[ByAsura]

I did mean to say High 5-A, that’s why I mentioned Namek Goku and not Frieza Saga. I just confused the tiers.

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

The point is 10x kaioken Goku should not be a hypothetical. Just because we don't see it doesn't mean Goku can't do it. And if Goku himself says "he's sure" that he can use it then it should be concrete. Goku has never been one to misjudge his own capabilities.

 

[Vizer04]

Goku can accurately estimate the power of people just by looking at them fighting, him being unable to understand his own power is beyond ridiculous.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

The point is 10x kaioken Goku should not be a hypothetical. Just because we don't see it doesn't mean Goku can't do it. And if Goku himself says "he's sure" that he can use it then it should be concrete. Goku has never been one to misjudge his own capabilities.

It's not "hypothetical", Goku literally uses against Freeza. Tien confirms that it comes from his training, NOT his zenkais, and Tien is entirely ignorant about Goku's current Power Level.

"Oh but that's Freeza Saga Goku"
The separation between them does not exist. We just treat them as different keys due to difference in power, narratively, it's the same f---king Goku.

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

Now I know how much you had to suffer to get something so trivial not even fully on the profiles.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Now I know how much you had to suffer to get something so trivial not even fully on the profiles.

Playing Devil's Advocate is the worst thing in the universe.

 

[Antvasima]

Is somebody willing to apply what our staff have decided here?

 

[Vizer04]

Is somebody willing to apply what our staff have decided here?

I do

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you very much for the help. It is very appreciated.

What exactly have our staff decided here, and do you know how to add it in properly structured manners?

 

[Vizer04]

What exactly have our staff decided here, and do you know how to add it in properly structured manners?

To remove the "likely" ratings for speed and everything on Asura's blog, i think.

 

[Vizer04]

Well, i started editing the profiles (just those that are unlocked) by removing the "likely FTL" and "likely Massively FTL" as we agreed, right

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

Hold on, we need akm to agree for that too as he is in charge of the blog. That's the only reason I'm holding off editing stuff. Later I can handle it myself because you need to also link the akm's blog.