Dragon Ball Z Manga Power Scaling

[BlastX]

I'm pretty sure Goku ate a Senzu after Gohan took them back from Cell, we had a whole thread about it.

 

[ByAsura]

Issue with this is that despite already having the human fighters beat, the Cell Jrs never killed a single fighter.

We see they're focused on the people they can't kill, like Trunks, Vegeta and co.

It's also shown that the other Z-Fighters were knocked out, and yet Piccolo isn't.

That also includes SSJ Goku, who was very weakened after depleting all his stamina against Perfect Cell, so when Semi-Perfect Cell blew up, his AP doesn't scale to Goku at full power, but to an extremely tired Goku that can't even hold a candle to the Cell Jrs.

Self-destruction scales above a character's AP.

Edit: Also what Blast said. Gohan specifically told Trunks to give everyone a Senzu Bean, and Goku was incapable of moving (let alone flying) before Trunks began distributing them.

 

[GyroNutz]

We see they're focused on the people they can't kill, like Trunks, Vegeta and co.

Were they? The panels after Gohan transformed show they were still 1v1ing the Z fighters.

 

[ByAsura]

Krillin, Yamcha and Tien were all knocked out. They had to be fed Senzu beans.

The Cells were in proximity, but they weren't fighting them, just preparing to slaughter them.

 

[Vizer04]

Even when ordered to kill them, Piccolo isn't very harmed.

Cell ordered to kill the Z Fighters if they wanted, and they clearly didn't given their sadistic nature.

 

[Vizer04]

And yeah, i disagree with scaling Piccolo to the Cell Jrs. I'll chance it from the blog when i get back to my computer.

 

[ByAsura]

Cell ordered to kill the Z Fighters if they wanted, and they clearly didn't given their sadistic nature.

Cell then orders them to quit any funny business and kill the Z-Fighters a bit before Gohan transforms.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Well they clearly didn't listened as not even the humans died by the time the Cell Jrs. were killed

The Cell Jrs can literally one shot all of the humans if they wanted to, so they clearly didn't tried to kill them just yet

 

[ByAsura]

They weren't even near Krillin, so I'd just say they were preparing to slaughter them. On the other hand, they were engaged in direct combat with the other 4.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

They weren't even near Krillin, so I'd just say they were preparing to slaughter them. On the other hand, they were engaged in direct combat with the other 4.

They literally beated all humans including Krillin, Tien and Yamcha

 

[ByAsura]

And then stopped. They were knocked out well before Cell ordered the Cell Jrs to kill them.

 

[AKM sama]

Well, the main intended issue here is that we were going to decide proper speed scaling for all of the DBZ characters, as I unfortunately likely allowed some inappropriate scaling to be applied, due to not getting sufficient staff help at the time.

However, this discussion has turned so long, and derailed so much, that either yourself, @AKM sama , @ByAsura , or @DarkDragonMedeus need to start a new thread with this purpose, as it is very important to get done.

My input at this point is more or less the same as what it was. This thread is currently far too long to call any other person for input and there are so many things being discussed. Plus, if a thread isn't resolved in 5 pages, people kind of lose interest, including me. So I won't be participating actively here, besides giving input on ByAsura's sandbox (which I think is the recent one): https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User:ByAsura/Sandbox18

1. As I said before, please remove the speed values. The blog that we are going to be linking in the AP section of profiles should strictly have AP. There is another blog for speed for the speed section. More clarity and less confusion.

2. I am sure both myself and DDM disagreed with Raditz's one-arm scaling point. So please remove this part:

Raditz casually matched Piccolo using both arms at once with a single arm. >59.2 exatons

Apart from those two points, I don't have any major qualms. Someone did point out earlier that a 2500 times increase in AP without any sufficient evidence later in the series should be held to the same level of scrutiny so there is something to be discussed about Gotenks being in the MegaFoe range. But since I want this thread to be over at this point, I will avoid discussing it here.

Rest of the sandbox looks good.

 

[ByAsura]

Everyone else disagrees with your speed and the Raditz point.

 

[AKM sama]

1. Speed having a separate blog was already discussed and decided in page number 32346 of this thread. I am not going to discuss it once again just because the thread never ends and a few people want to keep arguing until death.

2. We discussed this point too. The logic is flawed as I had already explained. It doesn't matter if people disagree with it, if it's incorrect, it is incorrect. Apart from myself and DDM who have already voiced disagreement, you can probably ask more staff members to evaluate this if you want.

 

[ByAsura]

And there's been many more pages since then that present evidence in favour of the higher scaling.

I'm sorry, my guy, but you're not the be-all end-all of facts. People have also shown why your logic is flawed.

 

[AKM sama]

So what exactly do you want me to do here? I've read the points. My job is to analyze what makes sense and what doesn't. And I have given my input. A lot of people don't agree with me if my input is not helping the upgrade of some popular verse. That's normal. If you want to continue, ask more staff members to analyze and input.

 

[ByAsura]

The problem is that people were still arguing even after you stopped.

As for more staff, this thread has gone on for so long that they'll have to go multiple pages back.

What's agreed with, by large, is already in the sandbox excluding some Cell stuff.

 

[Mr._Undetected]

Cool, Agree of course

 

[AKM sama]

The problem with that is it doesn't matter. We are not playing a game where the person who keeps arguing wins. No. I can bother the same staff members once again to input on the same stuff and they will say the same thing and go away to do other stuff. And people will keep arguing in return against that. 4 more pages will go on like that. When will it end? It doesn't matter if people are persistent enough to not drop a point, if some decision has been made, it should go through regardless.

If you're not calling for more staff then we will apply what has been agreed by most staff members. I think only myself, DDM and you input on the Raditz point, so the decision there is simple. But if you want, I can call for more staff members to input on that point.

 

[ByAsura]

Whatever, I'll just make a duplicate of the sandbox without that stuff.

By the way, Fluffy argued that Semi-Perfect Cell should be at least Imperfect Cell + Android 17, and cited the fact Perfect Cell was well over 2x stronger than Semi-Perfect Cell (via scaling above Goku, who surpassed all the Z-Fighters at half power) as evidence. What do you think?

 

[ByAsura]

There. I've made the copy.

 

[AKM sama]

Thank you. I very much appreciate your effort with the blog.

As for the other point, I don't think the latter is a good enough justification to conclude the former. Perfect Cell is his complete/perfected form. It should be no surprise that the boost he'd get should be massive.

Same cannot be said about Semi-perfect Cell as it is still an incomplete form. Both are different forms, it's like comparing an embryo with a fetus. Rather than assuming a number through not-so-sound logic, it is much better to say Semi-perfect Cell is unquantifiably superior to Imperfect Cell.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

I believe the site stops notifying people when the thread is too long, it stopped again.

2. We discussed this point too. The logic is flawed as I had already explained. It doesn't matter if people disagree with it, if it's incorrect, it is incorrect. Apart from myself and DDM who have already voiced disagreement, you can probably ask more staff members to evaluate this if you want.

I believe we have a rule for this, combined attacks are not accepted as 2x of a regular attack unless the show implies so, period. So you're absolutely right, we currently do not accept DB combined attacks as twice their usual damage.

The One Piece knowledgeable members had to make a whole CRT with sufficient evidence to allow their verse in specific to do it, so the same should be done to Dragon Ball, in a separate thread. Although the evidence for this is poor when compared to One Piece.

 

[Vizer04]

1. As I said before, please remove the speed values. The blog that we are going to be linking in the AP section of profiles should strictly have AP. There is another blog for speed for the speed section. More clarity and less confusion.

Alright, i still disagree with removing the speed values but i'm willing to concede on this point. However, i would like to know if you can remove the "likely" ratings.

About the Raditz arms point, i also disagree.

 

[GyroNutz]

There. I've made the copy.

I agree that this looks a lot neater and succinct like this.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Quick question, when did we decide against fused characters being stronger than the combined AP of the two individuals fusing together? Or even at least 2x stronger than the weaker of the two being fused? Because I was sure Semi-Perfect Cell is stronger than the combined might of Present 17 and Imperfect Cell. Gotenks and Vegito already have bigger jumps for other reasons via upscaling. And Perfect Cell being above 100% Goku who, 50% is above everyone else who are otherwise superior to Semi-Perfect Cell is already counted. But what about Semi-Perfect Cell's.

 

[AKM sama]

Fused characters like Gotenks and Vegito are not comparable to characters who use absorption like Cell and Buu. We don't have any stated level of boost for absorption.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Quick question, when did we decide against fused characters being stronger than the combined AP of the two individuals fusing together? Or even at least 2x stronger than the weaker of the two being fused? Because I was sure Semi-Perfect Cell is stronger than the combined might of Present 17 and Imperfect Cell.

Semi-Perfect Cell isn't a fusion. It's an absorption of 17 by Cell. Semi-Perfect Cell is >>>> Android 17 + Imperfect Cell, as 17 is way below Imperfect Cell, and Android 16 is equal to that Cell, while Semi-Perfect Cell almost destroyed him with one casual attack, meaning that Semi-Perfect Cell is bigger than the power of 17 added to Cell's own strength. As they both scale to above 489 Tenatons, their combined power would be 978 Tenatons, which is enough to make Semi-Perfect Cell High 4-C

That said, this is not a 2 times multiplier. It's an addition of their powers together to get this number

The same applies to Buu. When Buu absorbed Gotenks, he added Gotenks' power into his own power

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Semi-Perfect Cell isn't a fusion. It's an absorption of 17 by Cell. Semi-Perfect Cell is >>>> Android 17 + Imperfect Cell, as 17 is way below Imperfect Cell, and Android 16 is equal to that Cell, while Semi-Perfect Cell almost destroyed him with one casual attack, meaning that Semi-Perfect Cell is bigger than the power of 17 added to Cell's own strength. As they both scale to above 489 Tenatons, their combined power would be 978 Tenatons, which is enough to make Semi-Perfect Cell High 4-C

That said, this is not a 2 times multiplier. It's an addition of their powers together to get this number

So "At least 978 Tena", right?
Because it's >489 (A17) + >>>>489 (Imp. Cell)

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

So "At least 978 Tena", right?
Because it's >489 (A17) + >>>>489 (Imp. Cell)

Yes pretty much. As I said, this is NOT a multiplier, but rather Semi Perfect Cell being >>> Imperfect Cell (>>>>489) + A17 (>>489) = 978 Tenatons

For Buu that would be: Buutenks = SSJ3 Gotenks (>>5.265) + Super Buu (>>5.265) = 10.53 MegaFoe

 

[AKM sama]

as 17 is way below Imperfect Cell, and Android 16 is equal to that Cell, while Semi-Perfect Cell almost destroyed him with one casual attack

This means Semi-perfect Cell is unquantifiably stronger than Imperfect Cell. Nothing directly suggests an additive relation in absorption.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

This means Semi-perfect Cell is unquantifiably stronger than Imperfect Cell. Nothing directly suggests an additive relation in absorption.

Semi-Perfect Cell is stronger than the combined power of Android 17 + Imperfect Cell. This is pretty easy to prove as Android 17's power was basically nothing compared to Imperfect Cell at this point, so Cell adding his power onto him would barely make him have an advantage over Android 16, who was equal to his Imperfect form.

Semi-Perfect Cell while being very casual, managed to almost destroy 16 and incapacitate him in one blow, which makes it very clear that he's far above Android 16, and far above the combined strength of Android 17 + Imperfect Cell

The addition is not because it is portrayed as such, but that Semi Perfect Cell is proven to be far above the combined power of Android 17 + Imperfect Cell. Even if Semi-Perfect Cell's power would work by addition (adding 17's power to his own), Semi Perfect Cell's actual power is much stronger than even that

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I agree there's no evidence of Semi-Perfect being 2x stronger than Imperfect Cell. But I think we can still consider the fact that he would have to be more than 2x stronger than 17 who already has the > 489 Tenatons.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

I agree there's no evidence of Semi-Perfect being 2x stronger than Imperfect Cell. But I think we can still consider the fact that he would have to be more than 2x stronger than 17 who already has the > 489 Tenatons.

Again, this is not a multiplier. It's seen like that because Semi Perfect Cell is stronger than Imperfect Cell and Android 17's combined strength, since as I said, Android 17's power was very weak compared to Imperfect Cell and Android 16 was evenly matched with him. Combining Cell's and 17's power as Semi-Perfect Cell would barely give him an advantage over Android 16 in terms of strength

However, Semi-Perfect Cell stomped Android 16 easily and causally fired a blast that almost one shotted 16 and incapacitated him on the spot

For example: Assume Imperfect Cell is 10, while Android 17 is 4. Combining their two powers would make it far more than 2 times Androids' 17 power, but Semi-Perfect Cell is even stronger than that, since 14 isn't that much of an advantage over 10

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I know that, but my point was that while it's still a lowball. It's still a bare minimum and should still be enough to jump from Star level+ to Large Star level.

Anyway, I have to go to work for now.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

I know that, but my point was that while it's still a lowball. It's still a bare minimum and should still be enough to jump from Star level+ to Large Star level.

Anyway, I have to go to work for now.

Ah ok. Though you said otherwise so I wanted to explain it

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

Thanks glowing rat. You ate the words out of my tongue.
Also akm. Let's get rid of the "likely" part for kaioken 10x.

 

[AKM sama]

Semi-Perfect Cell is stronger than the combined power of Android 17 + Imperfect Cell. This is pretty easy to prove as Android 17's power was basically nothing compared to Imperfect Cell at this point, so Cell adding his power onto him would barely make him have an advantage over Android 16, who was equal to his Imperfect form.

Why not? Fiction is inconsistent, even a small power advantage can lead to someone absolutely stomping someone else, and even a big power advantage can sometimes not accomplish that. I am not saying Semi-perfect Cell cannot be stronger than Imperfect Cell + Android 17. He can be, and most likely is. But for us to cement a numerical value like that, it needs to have a strong basis. Like, if it was actually stated or shown in some way. All we have currently is "well, I don't think a small power gap is enough for someone to overpower another like Semi-perfect Cell did to Android 16", which while believable, isn't based on any concrete fact.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Why not? Fiction is inconsistent, even a small power advantage can lead to someone absolutely stomping someone else, and even a big power advantage can sometimes not accomplish that. I am not saying Semi-perfect Cell cannot be stronger than Imperfect Cell + Android 17. He can be, and most likely is. But for us to cement a numerical value like that, it needs to have a strong basis. Like, if it was actually stated or shown in some way. All we have currently is "well, I don't think a small power gap is enough for someone to overpower another like Semi-perfect Cell did to Android 16", which while believable, isn't based on any concrete fact.

Even in Dragon Ball, the "stomp value" (which is what I call to the difference in power for character A to stomp character B) is small, but not that small where even a miniscule increase is enough to completely turn the tides of battle, especially when Semi-Perfect Cell causally incapacitated 16, who was equal to Imperfect Cell

Mind you that the difference between Cell and Android 17 is massive, as even Piccolo, who was as strong as Android 17, couldn't even dent Cell with his most powerful attack. Even when the two fought together, none of their attacks did anything to Cell

So yeah, adding 17's power into Cell's own would barely increase his power in relation to before and would definitely not be able to one shot Android 16 while still being suppressed. Semi-Perfect Cell is clearly way stronger than even the combination of Imperfect Cell and Android 17

While yes there's no evidence that Semi-Perfect Cell is > 2 * Imperfect Cell, there's more than enough evidence for Semi-Perfect Cell to scale at least twice above Android 17's power

 

[Vizer04]

glowing rat

why...