Dragon Ball Z Manga Power Scaling

[ByAsura]

Well zamasu did get amped once and that was the lightning of justice amp thing which gave him a blue level amp.

I still strongly doubt it's a Blue level amp, if an enormous amp at all.

Look at the japanese. Zamasu says "a weak god who cannot destroy evil is worthless" implying that he was weak as he's powering up to get stronger.

That's not really what I was arguing, sorry for the confusion. My point was that the ambiguity surrounding the statement from other characters puts any amp, let alone an amp as large as the SSB multiplier, into question. I do agree it's an amp, but not something astronomical.

Him getting unstable doesn't have anything to do with strength, it's referring to him no longer being fully imortal which is relevant because that's their only win condition, but directly after, gowasu says that they need an even greater power than before, clearly acknowledging the amp. There's also how no SSB level could do anything to this zamasu.

That also wasn't what I was arguing. I was saying that's probably what the huge aura is.

They couldn't destroy him before, so to destroy him they need greater power. I don't see, in any way, how that's acknowledging an amp.

I'm talking about the manga, base vegito is stronger in the manga because he casually destroyed half of zamasu's body in base.

Both are technically sequels to the original manga. So I'm not sure what to do here.

Also, the overall balance of power is way different. Vegito was weaker, but seemingly capable of challenging him in base, while Blue Vegito was massively superior in every way. This is far different scaling from the anime, in which they were almost even.

The PIS part is how he couldn't blitz stomp zamasu instantly after going blue because Zamasu himself is comparable to 100% SSB Goku.

Because he'd powered up, just not massively.

In the anime, it's unknown how strong base vegito is.

It's known that he's weaker than his Blue form, which is weaker than God, which is weaker than the Super Saiyan forms that have stated multipliers.

Kale's berserker form and SSB. base Kefla claps SSG Goku who casually stomps both of the girls combined. And base gogeta performed way better against broly than both SSB Goku and Vegeta.

Kale was already strong enough to deflect one of SSG Goku's blasts, and both of them could withstand his hits.

A Metamoran fusion with way different power logic, once again.

My bad, I meamt why do they scale to large star level? The justification is that they fought cell jrs, and the cell jrs justification is that they fought vegeta piccolo and trunks. That's why I thought their SSJ forms surpassed their G2 which is why they're using them.

It is not in the justifications, this is what the justification says.

At least Large Star level as a Super Saiyan Grade 2 (Effortlessly toyed with Semi-Perfect Cell and could've killed a casual Perfect Cell with his Final Flash), At least Large Star level as a Super Saiyan after training again in the Hyperbolic Time Chamber (Held his own against a Cell Jr.)

They're not stated to be equal or stronger. They just scale to Semi-Perfect Cell for reasons that elude me, but it's strongly implied that they were already pretty close to him as Super Saiyans before that point, so even surpassing S-PC as Super Saiyans wouldn't require that much more power.

Actually, cell did state they gotten stronger, that could be a reason for scaling them above their g2 states.

That's not a good reason.

 

[ByAsura]

On this note, can somebody explain why Piccolo scales to Semi-Perfect Cell?

 

[Nullflowerblush]

As far as we know, unless the El Manga Legendario has a comment on the matter, the only evidence to substantiate the idea that Piccolo after emerging from the Room of Spirit and Time is more powerful than Semi-Perfect Cell is:

• Goku telling him he "[looks] a lot stronger"; although, still not anywhere near Perfect Cell, duh
• Piccolo seemingly combatting a Cell Junior. One thing to note is that even though Cell only mentions Vegeta and Trunks, interestingly enough, we see Krillin, Yamcha, and Tien being defeated by the Cell Juniors, but not Goku, Vegeta, Piccolo, and Trunks. Additionally, in the following chapter when Gohan ascends for the first time, we see those aforementioned four all conscious, but not the former three.

Although, none of this actually confirms anything. At best, he would get a "possibly at least Large Star level" rating for the Cell Junior thing.

 

[ByAsura]

I think the better option is scaling Super Saiyan Vegeta above 16, which nobody seems to disagree with in my scaling sandbox.

He admitted that Vegeta could keep him occupied (Cell was holding back, but 16 knows Cell is strong enough to easily overpower himself), and Trunks could blockade S-PC.

 

[ByAsura]

Nvm on the occupied thing. I looked into the raws, and 16 doesn't imply they're capable of fighting each other at all.

The Trunks thing could just be that Cell knows he can transform in an instant, but I strongly doubt it.

 

[Nullflowerblush]

Cell was petrified by Trunks, to the point where it begged for Vegeta to intervene. While it is entirely possible that Cell knew of Trunks' Second Grade form and were worried that he would transform, its fear seemed to moreso focused on the immediate, which was an ordinary Super Saiyan Trunks — it wanted Vegeta to get rid of Trunks at that very moment, suggesting he was an imminent threat.

 

[ByAsura]

I agree.

 

[Vizer04]

Losing one arm caused Gohan's chi to drop by half in the Cell Saga, so yeah, using one arm instead of two has a lot to do with strength

Besides, if Raditz was countering both Goku and Piccolo at the same time, and if Goku and Piccolo didn't held back (and they didn't), then Raditz was using with each of his arm power to counter Goku and Piccolo's AP

Since each of their punches was >>>29.6 Exatons, Raditz blocked with each arm an AP equivalent to that, meaning he took an AP of 59.2 Exatons

I agree with this

 

[AKM sama]

Losing one arm caused Gohan's chi to drop by half in the Cell Saga, so yeah, using one arm instead of two has a lot to do with strength

Difference was that Gohan was actually injured. Being injured does cause problems. It's a different issue.

But when you're using ki where you can use exactly the amount you want to use with precision, it's different. Piccolo can put his maximum output of ki in just his two fingers as demonstrated in his Makankosappo. If Goku shoots a blast at his maximum power, the output will be "max" irrespective of whether he uses one arm, one leg, one head, or two legs, or two arms. He can't go higher than his max.

What he can do, is shoot two blasts, one after the other, suppose with AP of 100. And even if both attacks hit an opponent with a durability of 110 at two spots, the two areas of impact will feel 100 each, not 200. It's the same as punching a guy with either one punch or two, it doesn't make the energy you can put into your punch any more than what you are capable of at max.

Raditz tanking Piccolo two arms while using 1 arm mean he should be massively > Piccolo

It means he is unquantifiably stronger, not exactly two times.

 

[Vietthai96]

It means he is unquantifiably stronger, not exactly two times.

It is reasonable to be two times, cuz Raditz actually stomp them both

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Difference was that Gohan was actually injured. Being injured does cause problems. It's a different issue.

But when you're using ki where you can use exactly the amount you want to use with precision, it's different. Piccolo can put his maximum output of ki in just his two fingers as demonstrated in his Makankosappo. If Goku shoots a blast at his maximum power, the output will be "max" irrespective of whether he uses one arm, one leg, one head, or two legs, or two arms. He can't go higher than his max.

When Goku ever used a one armed Kamehameha? Especially a full power attack? Also, the Makankosapo is a very special technique that allow Piccolo to create an immensly powerful attack, but with long charging time. This is clearly the exception, not the rule

Many character fire off blasts with one arm, but these are never their strongest attacks. Using two arms instead of one have everything to do with strength. Even in real life, everyone can lift much more with two arms compared to one (which many times doesn't even reaches half of what they can lift with two arms).

In Dragon Ball, that is the same. When someone uses their strongest move, they always used both arms (except Piccolo, but as I said, he's an exception)

What he can do, is shoot two blasts, one after the other, suppose with AP of 100. And even if both attacks hit an opponent with a durability of 110 at two spots, the two areas of impact will feel 100 each, not 200.

While that is true. What I'm talking (and what is relevant to Raditz's feat) is a different case. In Raditz's case, both Goku and Piccolo punch him with their full power at the same time, and Raditz casually blocks both of their punches with minimal issues and resist their power easily.

Assuming Goku and Piccolo both have 100 power, Raditz was blocking a force of 100 coming from both directions, and employs at least an equal force to completely counter them (Similarly to how Newton's 3rd law works). That would mean that each arm individually provide a force of at least 100, making his combined power at least 200. Had it been any less, and Raditz's attempt to block them would be overpowered by their combined strength

It's the same as punching a guy with either one punch or two, it doesn't make the energy you can put into your punch any more than what you are capable of at max.

If that same guy counters your 100 power punches with his own force, then he's also using 100 power to block your attack, otherwise you'd overpower his attempt to counter you

Assuming two guys punch you with a force kf 100 each, to stop them in their tracks, you'd need to use a power of at least 100 in each arm to prevent them for overpowering your counter attack. That would mean that the overall power used must be 200 or above, as otherwise you wouldn't be able to block them and get overpowered by their combined strength

It means he is unquantifiably stronger, not exactly two times.

I just showed exactly why it must be two times

 

[ByAsura]

There's a lot of characters that need to be upgraded though:

That’s already in my sandbox, fortunately (or unfortunately if AKM is right).

 

[speedster352]

That’s already in my sandbox, fortunately (or unfortunately if AKM is right).

You're a dbz fan too?

 

[Vietthai96]

You're a dbz fan too?

He is DB supporter and expert since the early days of vsbw

 

[speedster352]

He is DB supporter and expert from the early days of vsbw

That's so awesome.

 

[speedster352]

That’s already in my sandbox, fortunately (or unfortunately if AKM is right).

Who is your favourite dbs character?

 

[AKM sama]

Many character fire off blasts with one arm, but these are never their strongest attacks.

Neither was Piccolo's attack his full powered one. Not sure where kamehameha is coming from. But Goku has formed kamehamehas with one hand against Freeza iirc when he was underwater.

Assuming Goku and Piccolo both have 100 power, Raditz was blocking a force of 100 coming from both directions, and employs at least an equal force to completely counter them (Similarly to how Newton's 3rd law works). That would mean that each arm individually provide a force of at least 100, making his combined power at least 200. Had it been any less, and Raditz's attempt to block them would be overpowered by their combined strength

Not exactly. If a force of 100 is coming to hit Raditz's arm, his arm needs to be at a durability of 101 to survive that. If both his arms are at a durability of 101, he can survive both attacks that are 100 in magnitude.
Secondly, what you said about Newton's law is true, but we never follow that practice for any other fiction. Fighting two equally strong guys doesn't mean you are twice as strong as one of them. And that is exactly why a note related to combination attacks is mentioned in our multipliers page. We don't do that.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Yeah, I'm skeptical about using two arms being two times stronger than with one. Even IRL, losing an arm doesn't cut your strength in half because you could still put all your weight or energy into that one arm. Plus, that is how the human brain works is that it adapts; missing an arm inherently makes the other arm quickly become almost twice as flexible and more likely to become twice as strong. Plus, Piccolo's strongest attack at the time was something he only really needed one arm to perform. If we're going of a race of superhuman aliens, pretty sure they're even more advanced in that case.

 

[Vietthai96]

Not exactly. If a force of 100 is coming to hit Raditz's arm, his arm needs to be at a durability of 101 to survive that. If both his arms are at a durability of 101, he can survive both attacks that are 100 in magnitude.

that.......actually wrong, at least in DB sense of power

 

[AKM sama]

Anyway, 2x won't cause such a big problem for the AP numbers, and seeing as how it is not so clear cut and DDM and I disagree, I guess there would be no harm in just taking it out of the scaling chain.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Yeah, I'm skeptical about using two arms being two times stronger than with one. Even IRL, losing an arm doesn't cut your strength in half because you could still put all your weight or energy into that one arm.

If you lose an arm irl, you wouldn't be able to use even half of the amount of strength you can use with two ar,

Plus, that is how the human brain works is that it adapts; missing an arm inherently makes the other arm quickly become almost twice as flexible and more likely to become twice as strong.

How so? Maybe only for people who were born without an arm

Plus, Piccolo's strongest attack at the time was something he only really needed one arm to perform. If we're going of a race of superhuman aliens, pretty sure they're even more advanced in that case.

Piccolo is the exception when his strongest attack was done by a special technque

Neither was Piccolo's attack his full powered one. Not sure where kamehameha is coming from. But Goku has formed kamehamehas with one hand against Freeza iirc when he was underwater.

That Kamehameha was far from his strongest or his full power attack. Even if it was it would be one time compared to many many more times where the opposite is true

Not exactly. If a force of 100 is coming to hit Raditz's arm, his arm needs to be at a durability of 101 to survive that. If both his arms are at a durability of 101, he can survive both attacks that are 100 in magnitude.

AgaIn, what are you talking about is a different feat then what Goku and Piccolo did. Raditz was pushing back Piccolo's strike with one arm, while simultaneously doing the same with Goku's attack. Assuming each of their strikes had a power of 100, Raditz would need to use 100 power on each arm to push back the attack, meaning he'd have to use at least 200 power to push both of them back

That is different then simply tanking two 100 attacks, which indeed doesn't need 200 power because humans can easily survive multiple attacks from other people around their strength

Secondly, what you said about Newton's law is true, but we never follow that practice for any other fiction. Fighting two equally strong guys doesn't mean you are twice as strong as one of them. And that is exactly why a note related to combination attacks is mentioned in our multipliers page. We don't do that.

That is not for simply fighting them, it's Raditz overpowering their combined strength with his own, as he was pushing back their attack despite both Goku and Piccolo attacking at full power

 

[Vizer04]

Can we edit the reasoning for Yajirobe's AP please?

 

[Antvasima]

Anyway, 2x won't cause such a big problem for the AP numbers, and seeing as how it is not so clear cut and DDM and I disagree, I guess there would be no harm in just taking it out of the scaling chain.

Is that fine with you, Medeus and ByAsura?

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I'm fine with it, but still have more or less the same thoughts as AKM regarding the one arm thing.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Thank you for the reply.

 

[Vizer04]

Is there anything left to discuss?

 

[Antvasima]

What do you think @ByAsura ?

 

[ByAsura]

I'm waiting for a response to the previous stuff.

If I don't get any, I'll complete the agreed upon changes.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Thank you very much for helping out so much.

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

I still strongly doubt it's a Blue level amp, if an enormous amp at all.
That's not really what I was arguing, sorry for the confusion. My point was that the ambiguity surrounding the statement from other characters puts any amp, let alone an amp as large as the SSB multiplier, into question. I do agree it's an amp, but not something astronomical.

Well I believe the amp is astronomical because it wouldn't make sense for blue vegito to barely be stronger than SSB Goku when fusion base forms are consistently shown above their fusers strongest forms, even if this kind of sounds circular, fusion is consistently portrayed as a massive amp, even if we use how strong vegito got in the buu saga, he was stronger than SSJ3 Goku which is bigger than a 50x multiplier from base forms, so it's still makes no sense for vegito to be so weak which is why zamasu's amp has to be astronomical.

That also wasn't what I was arguing. I was saying that's probably what the huge aura is.

They couldn't destroy him before, so to destroy him they need greater power. I don't see, in any way, how that's acknowledging an amp.

Huge aura = stronger, IDK what the point of this is.
They say "a greater power than anything thus far...", if kk2 Goku was knocking around zamasu before and kk10-20 is worthless, I believe that is acknowledging an amp.

Both are technically sequels to the original manga. So I'm not sure what to do here.

Also, the overall balance of power is way different. Vegito was weaker, but seemingly capable of challenging him in base, while Blue Vegito was massively superior in every way. This is far different scaling from the anime, in which they were almost even.

It supports my point.
Yeah manga is quite different, however that doesn't mean vegito blue's power is also much more different, it's zamasu who's the different one.

Because he'd powered up, just not massively.

I don't understand, who are you referring to?

Kale was already strong enough to deflect one of SSG Goku's blasts, and both of them could withstand his hits.

A Metamoran fusion with way different power logic, once again.

No she wasn't really, Goku was playing around, he could already clap them both in SSJ2, and completely no sell their hits in SSJ3, SSG was a stomp, Goku was literally doing finger guns and stuff.
The metamoran and potara fusion have the same amp, I'm pretty sure it was confirmed that gogeta and vegito are equal. You're logic for why they are different is that metamoran requires equal size and power however that doesn't mean the potara amp isn't the same when both fusers have equal size and power.

Cell was petrified by Trunks, to the point where it begged for Vegeta to intervene. While it is entirely possible that Cell knew of Trunks' Second Grade form and were worried that he would transform, its fear seemed to moreso focused on the immediate, which was an ordinary Super Saiyan Trunks — it wanted Vegeta to get rid of Trunks at that very moment, suggesting he was an imminent threat.

Agreed. I believe we can scale SSJ trunks and vegeta above SPC and thus the scaling chain would look like this.
SPC < Vegeta << G2 Vegeta <<< g3 Trunks < 50% Goku < 100% Goku
SPC < Vegeta ~ Piccolo <<< Buu saga piccolo <<< Shin.
So it seems Goku definitely has the higher looking scaling but I still believe the guide statement is still usable because they are still not far off.

 

[ByAsura]

Well I believe the amp is astronomical because it wouldn't make sense for blue vegito to barely be stronger than SSB Goku when fusion base forms are consistently shown above their fusers strongest forms, even if this kind of sounds circular, fusion is consistently portrayed as a massive amp, even if we use how strong vegito got in the buu saga, he was stronger than SSJ3 Goku which is bigger than a 50x multiplier from base forms, so it's still makes no sense for vegito to be so weak which is why zamasu's amp has to be astronomical.

I'm not saying they're barely stronger, just that it doesn't make sense for the amp to be so significantly astronomical in context.

Huge aura = stronger, IDK what the point of this is.

I didn't say he wasn't stronger at all.

They say "a greater power than anything thus far...", if kk2 Goku was knocking around zamasu before and kk10-20 is worthless, I believe that is acknowledging an amp.

Which I'm not contesting. They couldn't destroy him prior, so they need greater power to destroy him. That does not suggest a huge amp for Zamasu, it just suggests they need more power.

Where are you even getting Kaioken x10-20?

It supports my point.
Yeah manga is quite different, however that doesn't mean vegito blue's power is also much more different, it's zamasu who's the different one.

The anime version of Goku was stronger to the point where Vegeta needed a lot of training to match him. So, not really. The overall power scaling is way different and shouldn't be conflated.

That's not even taking into account the fact that Vegito wasn't playing around, but somehow wasn't able to vaporized him immediately. He's already somewhat comparable to Fusion Zamasu in base, and Super Saiyan Blue vs base is a far bigger gap than what Vegito went up against Buuhan with. Yet, Blue doesn't do all that much to Fusion Zamasu considering the circumstances.

I don't understand, who are you referring to?

You're saying he didn't blitz stomp Zamasu in an instant. I'm saying it's because he did power up, just not astronomically.

No she wasn't really, Goku was playing around, he could already clap them both in SSJ2, and completely no sell their hits in SSJ3, SSG was a stomp, Goku was literally doing finger guns and stuff.

Pretty massive exaggeration. He was getting overwhelmed to the point where he had to go SS3 in the first place.

And they could tank all of it, yet he doesn't really power up at all during the Kefla fight and almost immediately goes straight to Blue.

All that suggests is the version of God Goku uses after he absorbed the God Form against Beerus isn't that big of a multiplier.

The metamoran and potara fusion have the same amp, I'm pretty sure it was confirmed that gogeta and vegito are equal. You're logic for why they are different is that metamoran requires equal size and power however that doesn't mean the potara amp isn't the same when both fusers have equal size and power.

It varies massively among guides, with many stating it's superior or inferior.

It doesn't mean the amp is equal either because of how vastly different they are, with Metamoran Fusions being able to drop down from states like Super Saiyan even after they merge as those states, whereas Potara doesn't.

You're actually the one who needs to prove they can be conflated.

Also, the fact that people can't fuse equally means the amp will most likely be way different because they're fusing will lower levels of their real power compared to the Potara.

Agreed. I believe we can scale SSJ trunks and vegeta above SPC and thus the scaling chain would look like this.
SPC < Vegeta << G2 Vegeta <<< g3 Trunks < 50% Goku < 100% Goku
SPC < Vegeta ~ Piccolo <<< Buu saga piccolo <<< Shin.
So it seems Goku definitely has the higher looking scaling but I still believe the guide statement is still usable because they are still not far off.

The guide statement should not be taken into account at all because of the bs logic it uses to come to that conclusion. It's not using your scaling chains, it's just using conjecture and apparently even admits to it.

Having a similar scaling chain (which is a thing based on arbitrary gaps) does not mean they should be equal, especially since one actually has a multiplier in there.

Also, you've added more arrows to Piccolo just so that this can work. Before it was 'Grade 2 Vegeta < SSJ Vegeta ~cell jr ~ piccolo << post 7 years piccolo <<< Shin'.

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

I'm not saying they're barely stronger, just that it doesn't make sense for the amp to be so significantly astronomical in context.
I didn't say he wasn't stronger at all.
Which I'm not contesting. They couldn't destroy him prior, so they need greater power to destroy him. That does not suggest a huge amp for Zamasu, it just suggests they need more power.

Where are you even getting Kaioken x10-20?

Yeah so you agree he's stronger but to what degree is unknown. I'm saying it's supporting a huge amp because it's consistent with how fusion's always treated and it wouldn't make sense if blue vegito is only a few times stronger than Goku.
Goku could go kaioken 10x but never did.
if it was useful against zamasu, he would've as a last resort.

The anime version of Goku was stronger to the point where Vegeta needed a lot of training to match him. So, not really. The overall power scaling is way different and shouldn't be conflated.

That's not even taking into account the fact that Vegito wasn't playing around, but somehow wasn't able to vaporized him immediately. He's already somewhat comparable to Fusion Zamasu in base, and Super Saiyan Blue vs base is a far bigger gap than what Vegito went up against Buuhan with. Yet, Blue doesn't do all that much to Fusion Zamasu considering the circumstances.

That's what I meant about that being a PIS.

You're saying he didn't blitz stomp Zamasu in an instant. I'm saying it's because he did power up, just not astronomically.

I said that referring to the manga, not the anime. You got confused, zamasu didn't power up in the manga.

Pretty massive exaggeration. He was getting overwhelmed to the point where he had to go SS3 in the first place.

And they could tank all of it, yet he doesn't really power up at all during the Kefla fight and almost immediately goes straight to Blue.

All that suggests is the version of God Goku uses after he absorbed the God Form against Beerus isn't that big of a multiplier.

It's not really. It proves that they peak at SSJ3 level and SSG is far above that to where they couldn't do anything to him. Goku went blue immediately because kefla was much stronger than him.
That's not the point, the point is base kefla claps both her fusers strongest forms.

It varies massively among guides, with many stating it's superior or inferior.

It doesn't mean the amp is equal either because of how vastly different they are, with Metamoran Fusions being able to drop down from states like Super Saiyan even after they merge as those states, whereas Potara doesn't.

You're actually the one who needs to prove they can be conflated.

Also, the fact that people can't fuse equally means the amp will most likely be way different because they're fusing will lower levels of their real power compared to the Potara.

The most recent one states that they are equal iirc.
That's irrelevant to the power boost.
Best I've got is this.
Potara in the original manga is stated to be even better than metamoran. Now this could be referring to how it's permanent unlike metamoran, however elder kai would not be recommending a fusion as better if it was vastly weaker. Especially when gogeta would easily wipe out buu time limit or not in 30 minutes. This is consistent with the two fusions being stated equal.
Now for the main part. Base gogeta is stronger than blue goku and vegeta in the broly movie. So goku + vegeta in the case of the potara must be at least equal to gogeta. This means base vegito must be > blue goku in zamasu arc and shows that potara = metamoran if the two fusers are equal.

The guide statement should not be taken into account at all because of the bs logic it uses to come to that conclusion. It's not using your scaling chains, it's just using conjecture and apparently even admits to it.

Having a similar scaling chain (which is a thing based on arbitrary gaps) does not mean they should be equal, especially since one actually has a multiplier in there.

Also, you've added more arrows to Piccolo just so that this can work. Before it was 'Grade 2 Vegeta < SSJ Vegeta ~cell jr ~ piccolo << post 7 years piccolo <<< Shin'.

Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah my bad.
Yeah Goku's scaling is bigger. I also forgot that cell >>> vegeta g2.
Yeah this won't work then.
Sorry for replying late I'm busy.

 

[ByAsura]

Yeah so you agree he's stronger but to what degree is unknown. I'm saying it's supporting a huge amp because it's consistent with how fusion's always treated and it wouldn't make sense if blue vegito is only a few times stronger than Goku.

I'm not saying he's only a few times stronger.

Goku could go kaioken 10x but never did.

Goku didn't use it, it destroys his body, and Gowasu (being the Supreme Kai in U10) has no idea it exists.

if it was useful against zamasu, he would've as a last resort.

He would have more than likely been unable to ever fight again.

That's what I meant about that being a PIS.

My point is that the boost itself doesn't make sense even in context.

I said that referring to the manga, not the anime. You got confused, zamasu didn't power up in the manga.

And that's another thing. Zamasu in the manga has about the same strength as Super Saiyan Blue, so he's pretty close scaling-wise to a non-powered up Zamasu in the anime. Yet, this doesn't make sense. Goku Black couldn't hold off full strength Vegeta even remotely in the manga, and Zamasu is so weak that Goku prepared to fight him as a Super Saiyan. So the multipliers are different between continuities.

The most recent one states that they are equal iirc.

Recency isn't really much of a factor.

That's irrelevant to the power boost.
Best I've got is this.
Potara in the original manga is stated to be even better than metamoran. Now this could be referring to how it's permanent unlike metamoran, however elder kai would not be recommending a fusion as better if it was vastly weaker. Especially when gogeta would easily wipe out buu time limit or not in 30 minutes. This is consistent with the two fusions being stated equal.
Now for the main part. Base gogeta is stronger than blue goku and vegeta in the broly movie. So goku + vegeta in the case of the potara must be at least equal to gogeta. This means base vegito must be > blue goku in zamasu arc and shows that potara = metamoran if the two fusers are equal.

I guess it is fine, then. But I still think it's weird to consider Potential Unleashed as a part of this. Yes, it is a transformation, but all transformations in the series don't work from their own unleashed potential.

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

I'm not saying he's only a few times stronger.

Well that would be the case since zamasu was able to take hits from kaioken Goku easily and if the amp was small then vegito would only be a few kaioken multipliers stronger than goku.

Goku didn't use it, it destroys his body, and Gowasu (being the Supreme Kai in U10) has no idea it exists.
He would have more than likely been unable to ever fight again.

LOL no he watched Goku and hits fight on godtube.
Goku used it against hit in a competition, there's no way Goku wouldn't use it when the multiverse is on the line and it's his last resort unless he knows it won't work. That's also an exaggeration. Goku used it against hit with a much weaker body and was relatively okay. He could also spam kaioken 10x in the pre top arcs in fights where he didn't need it (bergamo and gohan), and he didn't have much training between his current and zamasu arc self.

My point is that the boost itself doesn't make sense even in context.
And that's another thing. Zamasu in the manga has about the same strength as Super Saiyan Blue, so he's pretty close scaling-wise to a non-powered up Zamasu in the anime. Yet, this doesn't make sense. Goku Black couldn't hold off full strength Vegeta even remotely in the manga, and Zamasu is so weak that Goku prepared to fight him as a Super Saiyan. So the multipliers are different between continuities

Zamasu's may be different but vegito's is not. Zamasu had the lightning amp in the anime too and he was also much stronger than kaioken Goku pre amp while manga zamasu was matching regular blue so there is still a power difference.

Recency isn't really much of a factor.
I guess it is fine, then. But I still think it's weird to consider Potential Unleashed as a part of this. Yes, it is a transformation, but all transformations in the series don't work from their own unleashed potential.

If you don't like recency then there is another statement which just says potara is stronger.
Well in gohan it was a special case because he had reserves of untapped potential that he couldn't utilize since he didn't train. However someone like Goku does train and SSJ3 already pushes his limits, and potara surpasses that. Then you also have elder kai stating that even without super saiyan, gohkan's power is so great, now I wouldn't think "so great" refers to a power even weaker than gohan, one of the individual fusers. Then you also have the guide statement. And even then, vegito just needs to be above SSJ Gotenks for the multiplier to be applicable who is much weaker than gohan.

 

[ByAsura]

Well that would be the case since zamasu was able to take hits from kaioken Goku easily and if the amp was small then vegito would only be a few kaioken multipliers stronger than goku.

He has regeneration, and his halo was obliterated.

LOL no he watched Goku and hits fight on godtube.

Doesn't that also show them skipping to the end of the footage?

Goku used it against hit in a competition, there's no way Goku wouldn't use it when the multiverse is on the line and it's his last resort unless he knows it won't work. That's also an exaggeration. Goku used it against hit with a much weaker body and was relatively okay. He could also spam kaioken 10x in the pre top arcs in fights where he didn't need it (bergamo and gohan), and he didn't have much training between his current and zamasu arc self.

King Kai said explicitly that if he uses it again, it will **** him up. Being ok once is true, but not a second time. Also, Goku was knocked out for a bit when he used it against Fusion Zamasu.

He used Kaioken once against Toppo, and that seemingly wasn't anywhere near Kaioken x10. He has to say the multiplier, and Toppo was just about equal to Goku and Vegeta, so it wouldn't make sense if he just passed him 10x over here and Toppo didn't notice. Also, even if he did, you're talking about an arc where he's capable of using it properly.

Zamasu's may be different but vegito's is not. Zamasu had the lightning amp in the anime too and he was also much stronger than kaioken Goku pre amp while manga zamasu was matching regular blue so there is still a power difference.

Based on what?

Zamasu was not much stronger than the Kaioken (which is likely just the basic level). He kicked him hard enough to shatter his halo. Also, Vegeta and Trunks overpowered him without a rage amp, despite the latter being weaker than Goku Black was when Vegeta beat him.

If you don't like recency then there is another statement which just says potara is stronger.

Like I said, there's many many more that say other stuff, but I'm willing to accept your logic because it's in the manga itself.

Well in gohan it was a special case because he had reserves of untapped potential that he couldn't utilize since he didn't train. However someone like Goku does train and SSJ3 already pushes his limits, and potara surpasses that. Then you also have elder kai stating that even without super saiyan, gohkan's power is so great, now I wouldn't think "so great" refers to a power even weaker than gohan, one of the individual fusers. Then you also have the guide statement. And even then, vegito just needs to be above SSJ Gotenks for the multiplier to be applicable who is much weaker than gohan.

He's had untapped reserves even when he does train. That's the whole point of Gohan. In fact, he even trained in this arc to the point where his base form was about on par with Goku and co.

You can be powerful and not on par with someone.

Your entire statement is based on the guide statement. It's not extra logic that supports your point. And even then, it relies on the assumption that a fusion of Goku and PU Gohan couldn't possibly go Super Saiyan, which we can't really prove or disprove and the guide doesn't even speak on.

On this note, Fusion Zamasu was still Rose despite Zamasu being not having the form. If PU is a relatively conventional transformation, why wouldn't the fusion be a hybridised form of PU and base Goku?

Which you don't have proof for. Hence why we're in this mess.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Goku Black (Post Final Zenkai) was already confirmed in the Goku Black Saga to be the most powerful non-fused character in the Black Saga. Making him even stronger than SSBKK10 Goku.

Merged Zamasu is literally miles above both of his fusees (because if he wouldn't, then why would they merge in the first place). The only reason they even survived the fight with Zamasu is because he held back.

Zamasu is extremely arrogant and couldn't imagine that mortals could even reach his level of power, and he certainly did not expect Goku to break his limits so much that he broke his arms, and then being caught off guard when Goku used SSBKK on him

We can also see that since Zamasu powers up a lot after his fight against Goku, meaning he wasn't anywhere near full power when fighting the three saiyans

 

[ByAsura]

I'm pretty sure that's due to his abilities. In terms of physical strength, the clones that were equal to him and Goku Black himself was a little inferior to Vegeta.

He didn't stop holding back, he just boosted his own power the same way Black did against Vegeta.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

I'm pretty sure that's due to his abilities. In terms of physical strength, the clones that were equal to him and Goku Black himself was a little inferior to Vegeta.

No he wasn't. After the sickle of sorrow zenkai, he became stronger than Vegeta. That was also confirmed by Gowasu. He was only inferior to Vegeta before Vegeta beated him down, but after learning the secret to how Vegeta became that strong, he used it himself and unleashed his sickle of sorrow, as well as recieving another zenkai after the beatdown he recieved

He didn't stop holding back, he just boosted his own power the same way Black did against Vegeta.

He literally just powered up. There's nothing that suggests it's the same way, especially since the damage Zamasu sustained wasn't that great (and as for the corrupted form, that happened because Zamasu's mental health was deteriorating, and now his body reflects that)

 

[ByAsura]

No he wasn't. After the sickle of sorrow zenkai, he became stronger than Vegeta. That was also confirmed by Gowasu. He was only inferior to Vegeta before Vegeta beated him down, but after learning the secret to how Vegeta became that strong, he used it himself and unleashed his sickle of sorrow, as well as recieving another zenkai after the beatdown he recieved

When did Gowasu say this?

That was not a zenkai. He explicitly used his anger to make a new technique and cut through space-time, which even he didn't understand at all. He outright goes onto say 'my power has surpassed even my own understanding and approaches untouched heights' because he didn't know where the space-time rift leads. Not only does this suggest it's just referring to the techniques, but it's illogical that Goku Black would have this kind of physical power because he would just one-shot Vegeta.

Goku Black was just beaten, he didn't heal or anything, so he wouldn't have received a zenkai.

He literally just powered up. There's nothing that suggests it's the same way, especially since the damage Zamasu sustained wasn't that great (and as for the corrupted form, that happened because Zamasu's mental health was deteriorating, and now his body reflects that)

He powers up, causing his arm to grow grotesque and purple, and then he summons a weapon from the sky and says 'a weak god who cannot destroy evil is worthless!'

Half of Zamasu's face was purple from being unable to heal his injuries.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

When did Gowasu say this?

Episode 64.

That was not a zenkai. He explicitly used his anger to make a new technique and cut through space-time, which even he didn't understand at all. He outright goes onto say 'my power has surpassed even my own understanding and approaches untouched heights' because he didn't know where the space-time rift leads. Not only does this suggest it's just referring to the techniques, but it's illogical that Goku Black would have this kind of physical power because he would just one-shot Vegeta.

He would've one shotted Vegeta had his attack landed. After ripping space time apart, he let the clones of himself fight Goku and Vegeta instead while he was watching, and they had a very hard time with them despite previously Vegeta easily beated Black

Goku Black was just beaten, he didn't heal or anything, so he wouldn't have received a zenkai.

Black doesn't need to heal to get boosts in power. That also happened when Goku beated the shit out of him before they went back for the final time. Goku was far superior to Black after his rage, but before Goku could finish Black off, he recieved a zenkai from the damage he took and reversed the stomp around

He powers up, causing his arm to grow grotesque and purple, and then he summons a weapon from the sky and says 'a weak god who cannot destroy evil is worthless!'

Gowasu also stated that they'd need far more power than what they showed before to even damage Zamasu aftet powering up, causing Goku to realize they have to fuse into Vegito

Half of Zamasu's face was purple from being unable to heal his injuries.

And this is because he was losing balance between his body and soul. Gowasu says this in Episode 66