Dragon Ball Z Manga Power Scaling

[GodlyCharmander]

I don't know when "Kaioken x5" was ever used; if we're talking about the hypothetical statement Goku made about Great Ape Vegeta, I don't think that's evidence that he could use it at the time let alone if that was ever compared to 1st form Frieza on panel.

We can stick to KK4 then.

 

[Vizer04]

I don't know when "Kaioken x5" was ever used; if we're talking about the hypothetical statement Goku made about Great Ape Vegeta, I don't think that's evidence that he could use it at the time let alone if that was ever compared to 1st form Frieza on panel.

DDM, i have a question for you.

 

[Vizer04]

Okay. I hope that some sort of conclusion will be reached soon, given the extreme length of this thread.

Ant, we need Goku's profile to be unlocked.

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

What are you even asking exactly? I showed you the damn thread before.

It's just based on downscaling from 2nd Form Frieza by 10x.

That's what we accepted and what was put onto the profiles.

Alright I understand.

Again, what have you explained? You keep saying you've explained stuff without much evidence or proof.

Also, what does this even mean? My argument was that, despite getting his powers and abilities, Fat Buu was weakened with the fusion. So this is exactly what I'm saying, and it doesn't remotely begin to support your argument, which was 'When buu absorbs dudes, he gets their powers, abilities and knowledge/traits. Absorption is not a multiplier he simply adds them to his own. It is logical that the ability is addition based and nothing to suggest otherwise.'

Man I debunked this. The reason why fat buu got "weaker" is because he couldn't utilize the lord of lords god ki, and his personality suppressed buu's base power, so he should've gotten stronger however he couldn't control that power so he appeared to get weaker. This is true because kid buu's latent power amped ultra instinct Goku to full power but kid buu himself is no where near that strong.
Fat Buu's characteristics are not affected or suppressed by his personality at all so this isn't an argument.

You haven't shown anything. All you showed was that S-PC is stronger, which is obvious. I showed that Perfect Cell is twice as strong. S-PC is an unidentified amp, and since the amp isn't additive, your unproven reasoning isn't enough.

I have, Spc is clearly far larger than an addition of 17's power. That's why it's a low ball. It's the same deal with buu's absorption in terms of the power gained. We know this because PC is a much bigger boost seeing as how 18 is basically nothing to cell's power but he got far stronger than 2x his last level.

And I will repeat that your evidence is sub-par at best. Also, how would this even work, logically. Transformations are explicitly included in fusions, so if you fuse as a Super Saiyan, you'll be a Super Saiyan forever. Why would it not work the same for Potential Unleashed?
But he straight up wasn't doing that.
So is your argument. The thing is, though, fusions have been shown performing transformations certain characters don't, such as Kefla transforming into Kale's forms.
According only to your sub-par reasoning.

Because it would be impossible for gokhan to be a Super Saiyan and have his potential unlocked simultaneously. This is proven by elder kai's statement that he can still turn super saiyan. About that.

It do be like that.

This confirms that PU was written as just a base form at the time (because it wouldn't make sense to suggest SSJ if PU is a form that surpasses it), but de-confirms Base Form beating Buu.

This sucks. However SSJ Vegito's 50x multiplier is still applicable. He only needs to be > SSJ Gotenks, and this is easy to prove because Vegito is still stated to be => gokhan who should be at least stronger than PU Gohan who's above super buu.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

2,000 Farmers with Shotguns can't destroy a planet despite the fact that 10,000 is the bare minimum to destroy a planet.

I said specifically "when raised by the KAIOKEN". Yes they normally aren't linear, but when raised by the kaioken the lower level that rose also matched the AP rise (90,000 goes to 180,000 while Goku becomes twice as strong for example. And all other kaioken examples are the same way)

 

[Vizer04]

But we don't know that KKx6 is above Frieza, there isn't an official power level for KKx6 Goku and we can't just create one that "makes sense" to us.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

But we don't know that KKx6 is above Frieza, there isn't an official power level for KKx6 Goku and we can't just create one that "makes sense" to us.

Kaioken literally multiplies power levels as well as AP. Come on that was proven by this point many times already

It's like saying that we can't know 10 * 11 = 110 because the multiplication table only shows us up to 10 * 10, and you can't prove anything higher since we never saw it

 

[Antvasima]

@AKM sama @ByAsura @DarkDragonMedeus

Can you three try to reach some sort of agreement that we can apply here please?

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

You people aren't making sense. How can you claim that Goku is allowed to downscale 10x from 2nd form freeza yet simultaneously deny him having a higher power level than 1st form freeza? Weren't you guys literally arguing that power levels were becomig linear when using kaioken? What's happened now?

 

[Vizer04]

You people aren't making sense. How can you claim that Goku is allowed to downscale 10x from 2nd form freeza yet simultaneously deny him having a higher power level than 1st form freeza? Weren't you guys literally arguing that power levels were becomig linear when using kaioken? What's happened now?

Please read this, slowly this time:

• Goku curbstomped the Ginyu Force, causing Vegeta to admit (incorrectly) that he's a Super Saiyan. > 2.17c. and > 489 Ninatons. This is High 5-A
• Captain Ginyu was more than a match for Goku but not overwhelmingly, so > 2.17c and > 489 Ninatons.
• Goku went Kaioken x2 on Ginyu, so > 4.34c and > 978 Ninatons.
• Frieza in his 1st form destroyed Planet Vegeta, so > 4.34c and 4.89 Tenatons.
• Goku could do a Kaioken x10 and believed he could at least heavily assist against 2nd Form Frieza, so > 21.7c and 4.89 Tenatons.
• 2nd Form Frieza could blitz the combined might of Vegeta, Gohan, and Krillin if he desired, but only going to compare Vegeta since Gohan is only over on Frieza's level when enraged and Krillin is fodder, so > 21.7c and > 4.89 Tenatons. Also scales to Piccolo.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

You people aren't making sense. How can you claim that Goku is allowed to downscale 10x from 2nd form freeza yet simultaneously deny him having a higher power level than 1st form freeza? Weren't you guys literally arguing that power levels were becomig linear when using kaioken? What's happened now?

They are linear when increased by the kaioken, so 90,000 to 900,000 are in fact linear. This is because it was proven many times before kaioken raises power levels as linearly as AP. Both stats rise linearly when kaioken is applied

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

Please read this, slowly this time:

Okay so basically you're saying Goku <<< (10x) = 1st form freeza <<< kk10 Goku < 2nd form freeza. Instead of looking at the power levels that are strangely consistent with this. Didn't know 540000 was 10x greater than 90000.

 

[Vizer04]

Okay so basically you're saying Goku <<< (10x) = 1st form freeza <<< kk10 Goku < 2nd form freeza.

Wtf does this mean? KKx10 is superior to Frieza but inferior to his 2nd Form, is that so hard for you to understand?

Instead of looking at the power levels that are strangely consistent with this.

Power levels being consistent doesn't mean anything, we know that they don't scale linearly.

Didn't know 540000 was 10x greater than 90000.

Aight, i'm done with this. You can use my blog and decide the ratings for yourselves, i don't want to be involved anymore.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Okay so basically you're saying Goku <<< (10x) = 1st form freeza <<< kk10 Goku < 2nd form freeza. Instead of looking at the power levels that are strangely consistent with this. Didn't know 540000 was 10x greater than 90000.

Kaioken x6 does not exist, therefore the value "540.000" is not addressed by said "linear Kaioken". You cannot use a non existent multiplier on scaling, that's stupid.

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

Wtf does this mean? KKx10 is superior to Frieza but inferior to his 2nd Form, is that so hard for you to understand?

Power levels being consistent doesn't mean anything, we know that they don't scale linearly.

Aight, i'm done with this. You can use my blog and decide the ratings for yourselves, i don't want to be involved anymore.

They do scale linearly, if k10 goku has scaling to 2nd form freeza then 90000-900000 being linear is entirely plausible.

Kaioken x6 does not exist, therefore the value "540.000" is not addressed by said "linear Kaioken". You cannot use a non existent multiplier on scaling, that's stupid.

I don't understand the thought process here but fine use kaioken 4 or 5.

 

[Antvasima]

@AKM sama

Is it fine if I unfollow this thread while the rest of you figure out how to handle this? You can summon me after some progress has been made.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Kaioken x6 does not exist, therefore the value "540.000" is not addressed by said "linear Kaioken". You cannot use a non existent multiplier on scaling, that's stupid.

There's nothing preventing Goku from going to KK6. He could increase his power by any amount he wants or need by using it, but the higher the multiplier, the greater the strain on his body. Goku just never did it because he had no need to, and against Frieza he needed Kaioken times 10 or 20.

 

[Vizer04]

I'm also gonna unfollow, this is getting extremely tedious

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Unfollowing too, really sick of the repeating arguments.

 

[StekFence]

2,000 Farmers with Shotguns can't destroy a planet despite the fact that 10,000 is the bare minimum to destroy a planet.

That’s cos u only need 1. Too many chefs ruin the dish.

 

[ByAsura]

Man I debunked this. The reason why fat buu got "weaker" is because he couldn't utilize the lord of lords god ki, and his personality suppressed buu's base power, so he should've gotten stronger however he couldn't control that power so he appeared to get weaker. This is true because kid buu's latent power amped ultra instinct Goku to full power but kid buu himself is no where near that strong.
Fat Buu's characteristics are not affected or suppressed by his personality at all so this isn't an argument.

Who the hell says it's God Ki? Shin doesn't. He says outright that it's because Buu was pure evil and the souls he absorbed were gentle.

Also, why would that make him weaker? If he absorbed nothing, he'd gain nothing.

And you're talking about a time when Godly Ki was hardly established. This is even blatantly contradicted by the fact that Huge Buu is a thing.

I have, Spc is clearly far larger than an addition of 17's power. That's why it's a low ball. It's the same deal with buu's absorption in terms of the power gained. We know this because PC is a much bigger boost seeing as how 18 is basically nothing to cell's power but he got far stronger than 2x his last level.

That is not proof. That is you speculating that it's a far larger addition based on flimsy evidence. We don't know that it's a 2x amp.

Also, 18 was added to make Perfect Cell. We have no reason to assume Perfect Cell is as big a boost as S-PC when Cell himself repeatedly (and accurately) implies the opposite.

Because it would be impossible for gokhan to be a Super Saiyan and have his potential unlocked simultaneously. This is proven by elder kai's statement that he can still turn super saiyan. About that.

This is just the same repeat argument for no regards to any point I made.

But, it doesn't matter. This whole statement has been debunked.

However SSJ Vegito's 50x multiplier is still applicable. He only needs to be > SSJ Gotenks, and this is easy to prove because Vegito is still stated to be => gokhan who should be at least stronger than PU Gohan who's above super buu.

So, suddenly we're not talking about Base Gohan's fusion going Super Saiyan afterwards?

The statement is still completely stupid, utilises a power boost that's never mentioned in the manga, and doesn't even try to act as confirmation. It should just be dumped.

 

[Antvasima]

ByAsura:

Can you remind me how you think that we should solve this/what you think should be done here, please?

 

[ByAsura]

I’ve mostly lost track, and half of us have lost interest.

At the very least, base Vegito’s Buuhan justification should be removed as the statement doesn’t exist in the original raws.

Also, even if it were accurate, the current statement from the guide (only a licensed source, not anywhere near as reliable as something like Daizenshuu) is completely unsupported by the manga and only presents itself as a possibility.

 

[Antvasima]

I’ve mostly lost track, and half of us have lost interest.

At the very least, base Vegito’s Buuhan justification should be removed as the statement doesn’t exist in the original raws.

Also, even if it were accurate, the current statement from the guide (only a licensed source, not anywhere near as reliable as something like Daizenshuu) is completely unsupported by the manga and only presents itself as a possibility.

Thank you for helping out.

@AKM sama

I think that it is up to you to try to steer this thread in a constructive direction, or to start a new one based on this in our staff forum.

 

[Vizer04]

@Antvasima, i think we're done tbh:

✓ means accepted

✘ means rejected

1. Shin being comparable to Cell Games Goku ✓

2. Trunks 3rd Grade being a ten times multiplier ✓

3. KKx6 being stronger than 1st Form Frieza ✘

4. Vegito being stronger than a hypothetical fusion between Goku and Gohan ✘

The only thing left is to upgrade a few characters and add the blog to the verse page.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

When was Ultra Super Saiyan Trunks agreed to be a 10x multiplier? I know it's best described as a sacrifice in speed and stamina for a massive increase in raw power which didn't really effect the PL rating if. Cell also had his own version of an Ultra Super Saiyan transformation that made him have even more raw power than Ultra Super Saiyan Trunks, but wasn't using it due to it being a loss in speed. And it was implied Vegeta also could have used the transformation but didn't because he was aware of the speed sacrifice.

 

[Vizer04]

It multiplies strengtth ten times but is much slower...

 

[ByAsura]

1. Shin being comparable to Cell Games Goku ✓

2. Trunks 3rd Grade being a ten times multiplier ✓

3. KKx6 being stronger than 1st Form Frieza ✘

4. Vegito being stronger than a hypothetical fusion between Goku and Gohan ✘

The only thing left is to upgrade a few characters and add the blog to the verse page.

That first one is actually rejected now.

 

[Vizer04]

No

 

[ByAsura]

It's based off horrendously bad evidence, and I'm pretty sure only two people (including yourself) still agree with it.

 

[Vizer04]

It's based off horrendously bad evidence

The guide said they are equal, we accept that since it doesn't contradict anything and the guide is canon.

 

[ByAsura]

The guide posits that they're equal based on non-sense logic. That's very different from simply confirming that they're equal. We don't just accept guides if they're not directly contradicted, they have to make sense.

Apparently, it's really just conjecture as well.

 

[Nullflowerblush]

Wait, when was the Third Grade multiplier accepted?

 

[ByAsura]

Is 3rd Grade a 10x multiplier from Grade 2 or regular Super Saiyan?

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

.

Who the hell says it's God Ki? Shin doesn't. He says outright that it's because Buu was pure evil and the souls he absorbed were gentle.

Also, why would that make him weaker? If he absorbed nothing, he'd gain nothing.

And you're talking about a time when Godly Ki was hardly established. This is even blatantly contradicted by the fact that Huge Buu is a thing.

Kid buu's latent power comes from the grand supreme kai's god ki. He cannot use it however, that's why when he absorbed him, he didn't get any stronger and instead got weaker because the gsk's personality suppressed him.
For some reason I can't post the scan, but basically dbs manga chapter 66, dende states that kid buu's latent power was from him absorbing the gsk.
Huge buu is not a contradiction. how is it such?

That is not proof. That is you speculating that it's a far larger addition based on flimsy evidence. We don't know that it's a 2x amp.

Also, 18 was added to make Perfect Cell. We have no reason to assume Perfect Cell is as big a boost as S-PC when Cell himself repeatedly (and accurately) implies the opposite.

We don't need to assume PC is as big of an amp as SPC. The only thing we want from PC is that the amp is not mere addition based, it's way larger.
The second thing is that cell would gain little to nothing if he absorbed 17, and only added his power to his own. Seeing as how astronomically stronger he is, he no sold piccolo's strongest attack and one shot him. Despite this, when he absorbed 17, he blitz stomped 16 who was comparable to him before.
Don't misunderstand, adding 17 to cell would double his value, but it would not multiply cells power by 2. This is because the unquantifiable gap between them is huge.

This is just the same repeat argument for no regards to any point I made.

But, it doesn't matter. This whole statement has been debunked.
So, suddenly we're not talking about Base Gohan's fusion going Super Saiyan afterwards?

The statement is still completely stupid, utilises a power boost that's never mentioned in the manga, and doesn't even try to act as confirmation. It should just be dumped.

What if gokhan can go super saiyan? In the end, vegeta and gohan have conparable bases making vegito and gokhan nigh equal. And the guide states that vegito is the stronger one so it's consistent. The only thing that changed was base gokhan is now at least > PU gohan.
Sorry for replying late.

 

[ByAsura]

Kid buu's latent power comes from the grand supreme kai's god ki. He cannot use it however, that's why when he absorbed him, he didn't get any stronger and instead got weaker because the gsk's personality suppressed him.
For some reason I can't post the scan, but basically dbs manga chapter 66, dende states that kid buu's latent power was from him absorbing the gsk.

I know about that, but the thing is it wouldn't weaken him even remotely, especially since characters like Toppo show that you can have normal Ki as well as Godly Ki. It's also outright stated that good souls can change Buu's power, so I still don't see how this argument works.

Huge buu is not a contradiction. how is it such?

Because it increased his power according to Daizenshuu. If Godly Ki doesn't increase Buu's power, his strength wouldn't have risen.

We don't need to assume PC is as big of an amp as SPC. The only thing we want from PC is that the amp is not mere addition based, it's way larger. The second thing is that cell would gain little to nothing if he absorbed 17, and only added his power to his own. Seeing as how astronomically stronger he is, he no sold piccolo's strongest attack and one shot him. Despite this, when he absorbed 17, he blitz stomped 16 who was comparable to him before. Don't misunderstand, adding 17 to cell would double his value, but it would not multiply cells power by 2. This is because the unquantifiable gap between them is huge.

Fair point, then.

What if gokhan can go super saiyan? In the end, vegeta and gohan have conparable bases making vegito and gokhan nigh equal. And the guide states that vegito is the stronger one so it's consistent. The only thing that changed was base gokhan is now at least > PU gohan.

Absolutely nothing suggests Base Gokhan is superior to PU if we're assuming only base Gohan is part of the fusion. Even Elder Kai's statement only refers to Super Saiyan in the raws.

Also, that guide statement is still stupid.

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

I know about that, but the thing is it wouldn't weaken him even remotely. It's also outright stated that good souls can change Buu's power, so I still don't see how this argument works.
Because it increased his power according to Daizenshuu. If Godly Ki doesn't increase Buu's power, his strength wouldn't have risen.

You're right. Supreme kai's possess god ki, and south kai was absorbed by buu and buu was able to utilize his power. Buu is also stated to have gotten weaker because he absorbed grand supreme kai's "gentle soul". However I believe grand supreme kai is an outlier in this case, buu absorbed many good people including gohan who has a pure heart and he didn't get weaker, instead getting much stronger.
So I think it's still safe to say that buu integrates the power of those he absorbs into himself.

Absolutely nothing suggests Base Gokhan is superior to PU if we're assuming only base Gohan is part of the fusion. Even Elder Kai's statement only refers to Super Saiyan in the raws.

Also, that guide statement is still stupid.

Every single time fusion is used, the base power of the fusion is always stronger than the fusers strongest form, I mean it.
This is consistent with the guide statement. I don't see how it could be wrong or if it contradicts anything either.

By the way bro, are we really going to use grade 3's 10x multiplier?

 

[ByAsura]

I'm not claiming they don't empower them, but we don't have any evidence that it's always a 1:1 boost.

I don't remember this ever being stated as a rule, especially since the strongest forms base fusions (at least ones who've demonstrated superiority over all their other forms) have had is Super Saiyan, Legendary Super Saiyan 2 and Super Saiyan 3. Plus, even if potential unleashed is a form, it's not a transformation as such, just the absolute limits of his power unleashed.

Edit: There's also Gogeta, but he's a different form of fusion.

It's just not supported in any capacity, and makes use of a boost that's only mentioned in the anime. It's like the Dabura statement.

I have no idea. Technically, it isn't really contradicted (unlike the Super Saiyan 2 and 3 multipliers) because Trunks never used his full power until after Vegeta was with Krillin, and the suppressed Cell was just dodging at that point.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Yeah Shin being = Cell Games SSJ Goku is probably wrong. Especially since evem Base Gohan wasn't scared of Pui-Pui (hell they rock paper scizored rigt before him), while Shin wad afraid of even Pui-Pui

Maybe if the guide would suggest Shin = Base Goku it'd be alright

 

[Antvasima]

I trust ByAsura's sense of judgement.

@AKM sama @ByAsura @DarkDragonMedeus @GyroNutz

Since we are going in circles here, without reaching anywhere constructive, our staff members here should try to reach a decision, or start a new staff only thread in our staff forum regarding this subject.