Dragon Ball Z Manga Power Scaling

[ByAsura]

Episode 64.

I mean the timestamp.

He would've one shotted Vegeta had his attack landed.

And not his physical strength, hence my point.

After ripping space time apart, he let the clones of himself fight Goku and Vegeta instead while he was watching, and they had a very hard time with them despite previously Vegeta easily beated Black

They had a hard time because they were multiplying without end and couldn't be touched. Other than that, they failed to do anything but light damage.

Black doesn't need to heal to get boosts in power. That also happened when Goku beated the shit out of him before they went back for the final time. Goku was far superior to Black after his rage, but before Goku could finish Black off, he recieved a zenkai from the damage he took and reversed the stomp around

Black incorporated Goku's style and healed. Against Vegeta, whose style he'd already incorporated during their first fight, he turned his power into anger.

Gowasu also stated that they'd need far more power than what they showed before to even damage Zamasu aftet powering up, causing Goku to realize they have to fuse into Vegito

He said they'd need far more power to defeat him, which is true because they couldn't do that before. Also, I'm not saying Fusion Zamasu didn't power-up at all, I'm saying he didn't hold back.

And this is because he was losing balance between his body and soul. Gowasu says this in Episode 66

He still took damage. He couldn't heal the damage and it went purple because of the balance, but he still took some nonetheless.

 

[Antvasima]

So what should we do here exactly, ByAsura? This is taking too long, so we need to let our staff members make final decisions here.

 

[ByAsura]

I don’t know what we should do here. I’ll let the others decide.

Honestly, it’d just affect one character, so I don’t really see the point in even continuing to argue against this.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay.

@GyroNutz @AKM sama @DarkDragonMedeus

What do you think that we should do here then?

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

He has regeneration, and his halo was obliterated.

Okay. Wouldn't that just make vegito even weaker than a few times Goku then?

Doesn't that also show them skipping to the end of the footage?

No. They do watch the conclusion.

King Kai said explicitly that if he uses it again, it will **** him up. Being ok once is true, but not a second time. Also, Goku was knocked out for a bit when he used it against Fusion Zamasu.

He used Kaioken once against Toppo, and that seemingly wasn't anywhere near Kaioken x10. He has to say the multiplier, and Toppo was just about equal to Goku and Vegeta, so it wouldn't make sense if he just passed him 10x over here and Toppo didn't notice. Also, even if he did, you're talking about

Yet Goku used it again and was fine.
Because Goku's leg was crushed after both his arms went limp and then he got thrown half way across the city.
He used it against gohan. I think against bergamo too. He also straight spams it in the tournament of power before he gets any zenkai's. And this is all when he's fresh out of the zamasu arc, no extra training.



This is incomplete, I posted by accident.

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

Based on what?

Zamasu was not much stronger than the Kaioken (which is likely just the basic level). He kicked him hard enough to shatter his halo. Also, Vegeta and Trunks overpowered him without a rage amp, despite the latter being weaker than Goku Black was when Vegeta beat him.

Zamasu almost immediately after shattered his leg with one hand and beat him.
Goku was able to hold off zamasu on his own until his hands went limp, vegeta who's comparable should be capable of the same with the help of trunks.

He's had untapped reserves even when he does train. That's the whole point of Gohan. In fact, he even trained in this arc to the point where his base form was about on par with Goku and co.

You can be powerful and not on par with someone.

Your entire statement is based on the guide statement. It's not extra logic that supports your point. And even then, it relies on the assumption that a fusion of Goku and PU Gohan couldn't possibly go Super Saiyan, which we can't really prove or disprove and the guide doesn't even speak on.

On this note, Fusion Zamasu was still Rose despite Zamasu being not having the form. If PU is a relatively conventional transformation, why wouldn't the fusion be a hybridised form of PU and base Goku?

Which you don't have proof for. Hence why we're in this mess.

He didn't train enough, take a look at super. Gohan goes from weaker than his buu self to matching blue Goku just by reawakening his PU form, it definitely depends on training, he can tap into his potential if he trains which someone like Goku already did.
My point is that it doesn't make sense that Gokhan without super saiyan has power that is "so great" without even being stronger than one of his fusers.
Gokhan can go super saiyan, Elder kai proves so with his statement.
That is true however it contradicts gokhan going super saiyan who elder kai believes he can.
That's what I'm trying to convince you right here.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

While this is true, Shin is also < Pui Pui < Base Gohan <<<<< Cell Games SSJ Goku < Cell Games SSJ Gohan. Shin was terrified of Pui-Pui, but even Base Gohan wasn't scared in the slightest.

Uhhhh, I think we've established that "not being scared of x" in base form does NOT mean your base form itself is comparable to x.
Gohan wasn't scared, perhaps, because he had SSJ up his sleeve, or even SSJ2.

Saying "Base Gohan > Pui-Pui" based on that is baloney.

Sorry for being late, the forum hasn't been notifying me

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

Uhhhh, I think we've established that "not being scared of x" in base form does NOT mean your base form itself is comparable to x.
Gohan wasn't scared, perhaps, because he had SSJ up his sleeve, or even SSJ2.

Saying "Base Gohan > Pui-Pui" based on that is baloney.

Sorry for being late, the forum hasn't been notifying me

Glowing rat man conceded that point already.
Bro what do you mean the forum wasn't notifying you? You literally said you were unfollowing.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Glowing rat man conceded that point already.

I see.

Bro what do you mean the forum wasn't notifying you? You literally said you were unfollowing.

Forgot about that.

 

[ByAsura]

Okay. Wouldn't that just make vegito even weaker than a few times Goku then?

No, because he does grow stronger to an extent.

No. They do watch the conclusion.

I'll watch the episode again and get back to you then.

Yet Goku used it again and was fine.

In another arc where he's capable of using a Kaioken x20 and not glowing fully red, so he's overcome those issues.

Because Goku's leg was crushed after both his arms went limp and then he got thrown half way across the city.

He survived way worse against Vegeta and Raditz, so obviously it's the injuries + kaioken.

He did not get thrown across the city. Goku's arms went limp, he immediately attacked Zamasu, went Kaioken in his grasp and collapsed into his base form.

He used it against gohan. I think against bergamo too. He also straight spams it in the tournament of power before he gets any zenkai's. And this is all when he's fresh out of the zamasu arc, no extra training.

In the same arc where he's capable of using it consistently.

He had lots high-gravity training with Whis in preparation for the Tournament, as did Vegeta who also went soft. In this arc, he's somewhat relative to Hit as a Super Saiyan God (judging by his performance against Dyspo, anyway), despite being about on par with a weaker form of Hit after the Future Trunks Saga.

Zamasu almost immediately after shattered his leg with one hand and beat him.

His leg was not crushed, if that were the case he wouldn't even be capable of moving it, yet he moves his leg upwards and sideways and then bends it.

Also, Zamasu beat him? No, he smashed his halo with a basic Kaioken, forcing him to power up.

Goku was able to hold off zamasu on his own until his hands went limp, vegeta who's comparable should be capable of the same with the help of trunks.

Which is exactly what I'm saying.

He didn't train enough, take a look at super. Gohan goes from weaker than his buu self to matching blue Goku just by reawakening his PU form, it definitely depends on training, he can tap into his potential if he trains which someone like Goku already did.

He absolutely did train enough. Gohan was about on par with Pre-RoSAT Goten, who's below Piccolo even after RoSAT training, and then far surpasses Shin after training with the Z-Sword.

Also, you're talking about a form of Gohan that stagnated after he trained enough to combat Frost. His power at this point already surpassed his full potential in the Buu Saga, so it's likely his latent potential just magnified.

My point is that it doesn't make sense that Gokhan without super saiyan has power that is "so great" without even being stronger than one of his fusers.

It makes perfect sense. Base Goku alone is one of the strongest beings in the universe and completely eclipses any Kai, so him being stronger than Super Saiyan or Super Saiyan 3 easily fulfils that role.

Gokhan can go super saiyan, Elder kai proves so with his statement.

Which doesn't mean anything. It could easily just mean that the fusion would retain the ability to go Super Saiyan from Goku.

That is true however it contradicts gokhan going super saiyan who elder kai believes he can.

Which again, doesn't mean anything.

Edit: According to Elder Kai, this isn't even a transformation anyway.

 

[Antvasima]

I don’t know what we should do here. I’ll let the others decide.

Honestly, it’d just affect one character, so I don’t really see the point in even continuing to argue against this.

@AKM sama @DarkDragonMedeus @GyroNutz

You all need to help out with deciding what to do here, so we can reach a final conclusion here. Alternately we could create a new revision thread relating to this and continue there instead.

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

No, because he does grow stronger to an extent.

He doesn't get stronger uless you mean zamasu in which case he also doean't get any stronger after the lightning amp as far as I remember.

He survived way worse against Vegeta and Raditz, so obviously it's the injuries + kaioken.

He did not get thrown across the city. Goku's arms went limp, he immediately attacked Zamasu, went Kaioken in his grasp and collapsed into his base form.

Yeah I was exaggerating with that.

In the same arc where he's capable of using it consistently.

He had lots high-gravity training with Whis in preparation for the Tournament, as did Vegeta who also went soft. In this arc, he's somewhat relative to Hit as a Super Saiyan God (judging by his performance against Dyspo, anyway), despite being about on par with a weaker form of Hit after the Future Trunks Saga.

You're right, I forgot that he did train before the tournament.

His leg was not crushed, if that were the case he wouldn't even be capable of moving it, yet he moves his leg upwards and sideways and then bends it.

Also, Zamasu beat him? No, he smashed his halo with a basic Kaioken, forcing him to power up.
Which is exactly what I'm saying.

Zamasu is still stronger than the kaioken, he tanked the hit with minimal damage to his own body and proceeded to one shot Goku.

He absolutely did train enough. Gohan was about on par with Pre-RoSAT Goten, who's below Piccolo even after RoSAT training, and then far surpasses Shin after training with the Z-Sword.

Also, you're talking about a form of Gohan that stagnated after he trained enough to combat Frost. His power at this point already surpassed his full potential in the Buu Saga, so it's likely his latent potential just magnified

There is an big issue with your scaling, goten can't possibly be on par with Gohan because that would make shin much stronger than SSJ Gohan. See, SSJ Goku cell saga < SSJ goten = SSJ Gohan < post rosat Goten < piccolo <<< Shin. And shin is implied and shown to be weaker than gohan.
That isn't true. Gohan wasn't using his PU form, his base form is simply stronger than his PU, after he unlocked PU again, he was as strong as blue Goku.
His PU gave him a blue level amp, something that potara amp has already shown capable of surpassing.

It makes perfect sense. Base Goku alone is one of the strongest beings in the universe and completely eclipses any Kai, so him being stronger than Super Saiyan or Super Saiyan 3 easily fulfils that role.

No it definitely does not make sense in context, even SSJ3 Goku is like fodder who's hundreds of times weaker than SSJ3 gotenks who buu is stronger than by an absurd amount with him absorbed. For gokhan to only be stronger than SSJ3 Goku or even base gotenks is not impressive power enough to beat buu so for it to be "so great" yet not even stronger than gohan doesn't make sense.

that the fusion would retain the ability to go Super Saiyan from Goku.

That contradicts how PU form works.

Which again, doesn't mean anything.

Edit: According to Elder Kai, this isn't even a transformation anyway.

That would just reinforce my argument because if it's a regular base form then fusion which is consistently above the base forms and strongest forms of it's users should surpass it easily.

 

[ByAsura]

He doesn't get stronger uless you mean zamasu in which case he also doean't get any stronger after the lightning amp as far as I remember.

I was talking about the lightning amp itself.

Zamasu is still stronger than the kaioken, he tanked the hit with minimal damage to his own body and proceeded to one shot Goku.

He did not proceed to one-shot Goku, nor did he tank the hit (plus he has regeneration). Watch the fight.

There is an big issue with your scaling, goten can't possibly be on par with Gohan because that would make shin much stronger than SSJ Gohan. See, SSJ Goku cell saga < SSJ goten = SSJ Gohan < post rosat Goten < piccolo <<< Shin. And shin is implied and shown to be weaker than gohan.

We don't scale SSJ Goku to Shin because the logic behind it is stupid. If anything, this is more proof of that.

Shin is shown and implied to be weaker than SSJ Gohan, which is fine. His base form is only a little bit above Kibito.

That isn't true. Gohan wasn't using his PU form, his base form is simply stronger than his PU, after he unlocked PU again, he was as strong as blue Goku.

That's what I was saying.

His PU gave him a blue level amp, something that potara amp has already shown capable of surpassing.

In one version of the continuity.

No it definitely does not make sense in context, even SSJ3 Goku is like fodder who's hundreds of times weaker than SSJ3 gotenks who buu is stronger than by an absurd amount with him absorbed. For gokhan to only be stronger than SSJ3 Goku or even base gotenks is not impressive power enough to beat buu so for it to be "so great" yet not even stronger than gohan doesn't make sense.

Your argument doesn't make sense because 'so strong' does not mean stronger than SS3. Also, SS3 was capable of fighting or surpassing forms of Buu, so something on that level would absolutely be considered 'so strong' to Elder Kai.

That contradicts how PU form works.

That contradicts how fusion works.

That would just reinforce my argument because if it's a regular base form then fusion which is consistently above the base forms and strongest forms of it's users should surpass it easily.

It doesn't support your point at all because this is not 'regular base form'.

 

[Antvasima]

ByAsura:

Can you summarise what the other staff members here need to evaluate from your current discussion, please?

 

[ByAsura]

Fluffy is claiming that Vegito should be stronger than Potential Unleashed Gohan because there's a guide that claims a hypothetical Gohan/Goku fusion possibly wouldn't reach his level of power.

He says that this hypothetical fusion (which he claims to be only a fusion between base Gohan and Goku rather than his Potential Unleashed form) should be stronger than Potential Unleashed Gohan because fusions are stronger than transformations.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. And why is this relevant to content DBZ content revisions? I thought that we were supposed to discuss appropriate speed scaling for the characters.

 

[ByAsura]

There’s a little bit in the scaling chain or whatever.

I’ll just exclude Vegito pending a future CRT. But, either way, his justification should be altered because Elder Kai never said that this hypothetical Gohan-Goku fusion could win without Super Saiyan.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. That is probably fine to apply then.

However, we should probably refocus on the overall speed scaling here, or start a new revision thread about the topic, and then close this one.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

By the way, "Base Gohan is as strong as PU" is based off his statement against Tagoma where he states Tagoma is as strong as him at his best.
But the japanese statement uses "best" as in, his current best, not his prime.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

By the way, "Base Gohan is as strong as PU" is based off his statement against Tagoma where he states Tagoma is as strong as him at his best.
But the japanese statement uses "best" as in, his current best, not his prime.

Didn't we already made a CRT regading that? Pretty sure Tagoma is not PU Gohan level

That said, Base Gohan is different than PU Gohan. Both DBS continuities clearly showed that. The reason why Gohan never used SSJ is becuse PU is not only way better, but also costs no stamina to maintain

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Didn't we already made a CRT regading that? Pretty sure Tagoma is not PU Gohan level

That said, Base Gohan is different than PU Gohan. Both DBS continuities clearly showed that. The reason why Gohan never used SSJ is becuse PU is not only way better, but also costs no stamina to maintain

If y'all did, you forgot to remove that from his justifications.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

This was talked about in 2019, and people just disagreed with a reliable japanese source for the sake of it, and let the thread die, bruh. It wouldn't make any sense for Gohan to refer to his Ultimate self as his prime, compare to Tagoma, and just to one shot him with SSJ, that would make current Gohan his prime, and this creates a paradox.

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

I was talking about the lightning amp itself.
He did not proceed to one-shot Goku, nor did he tank the hit (plus he has regeneration). Watch the fight.

My bad I misremembered. This still would make vegito only 2-10x stronger than blue goku however. This is because lightning amp zamasu was greater than anything they had before which would include kaioken and even kaioken 10x because gowasu who made the statement knew of it's existence. This is inconsistent with every single fusion amp ever which is why vegito should be stronger than blue goku in base.

We don't scale SSJ Goku to Shin because the logic behind it is stupid. If anything, this is more proof of that.

Shin is shown and implied to be weaker than SSJ Gohan, which is fine. His base form is only a little bit above Kibito.

Yes so goten can't be that strong.

That's what I was saying.

Okay what I'm saying is that gohan's pu amp is smaller than what the potara has shown to surpass in terms of multiplier.

In one version of the continuity.

Yeah no. Gohan went from fodder tier buu saga level to matching Kefla who was stronger than SSB Goku in the manga. SSB vegito is stronger. So it's in both continuities.

Your argument doesn't make sense because 'so strong' does not mean stronger than SS3. Also, SS3 was capable of fighting or surpassing forms of Buu, so something on that level would absolutely be considered 'so strong' to Elder Kai.

Gotenks already surpassed SSJ3 goku in base form and he's quite literally nothing to Buu. Why would elder kai be surprised about his power if gokhan is only stronger than a SSJ3?
Elder kai also watched and was aware of Gotenks' fight in the chamber as well as when he was in SSJ3 and he was never surprised about his power, but he thought that a gokhan fusion would be so strong.

That contradicts how fusion works.
It doesn't support your point at all because this is not 'regular base form'.

No? If you mean how fusion will merge PU and super saiyan then it's not possible because that's just not how PU works. PU boost your power to the maximum it can currently reach, stacking super saiyan is inpossible because it's already taken inti account by PU. So for gokhan to be using SSJ, he has to not be in PU.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

My bad I misremembered. This still would make vegito only 2-10x stronger than blue goku however. This is because lightning amp zamasu was greater than anything they had before which would include kaioken and even kaioken 10x because gowasu who made the statement knew of it's existence. This is inconsistent with every single fusion amp ever which is why vegito should be stronger than blue goku in base.

Besides, Vados said that the fusion is more than the sum of the fusees power multiplied by tens of times while describing how Potara fusion works, by sum she meant their maximum power at the time, as Base Kale is literally fodder compared to Caulifla, and even if Caulifla was equal to Goku, a Base Kefla's power whose power only multiplied from Base Caulifla by tens of times would make her barely above SSJ Goku, which is completely false since she stomped SSG Goku in Base, while he stomped LSSJ2 Kale and SSJ2 Caulifla

That would mean that Base Kefla = (SSJ2 Caulifla + LSSJ2 Kale) * tens of times. The same things would apply to Vegito, only with Goku and Vegeta instead. This is also consistent with the manga as Base Vegito easily blows away half of Fused Zamasu's face in Base, and utterly stomps him in Blue, and that same Zamasu was matching CSSB Goku

That also explain how Vegito went from being stronger than SSJ3 Goku in the Buu Saga to being stronger than SSB Goku in the Black Saga, as the more the fusees grow stronger, the fusion becomes stronger as a result even in Base

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Besides, Vados said that the fusion is more than the sum of the fusees power multiplied by tens of times while describing how Potara fusion works, by sum she meant their maximum power at the time, as Base Kale is literally fodder compared to Caulifla, and even if Caulifla was equal to Goku, a Base Kefla's power whose power only multiplied from Base Caulifla by tens of times would make her barely above SSJ Goku, which is completely false since she stomped SSG Goku in Base, while he stomped LSSJ2 Kale and SSJ2 Caulifla

That would mean that Base Kefla = (SSJ2 Caulifla + LSSJ2 Kale) * tens of times. The same things would apply to Vegito, only with Goku and Vegeta instead. This is also consistent with the manga as Base Vegito easily blows away half of Fused Zamasu's face in Base, and utterly stomps him in Blue, and that same Zamasu was matching CSSB Goku

What? So you're saying the fusion is stronger not based on how strong a character is, but how many transformation they have unlocked?

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

What? So you're saying the fusion is stronger not based on how strong a character is, but how many transformation they have unlocked?

Based on how strong they are at maximum power.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

What? So you're saying the fusion is stronger not based on how strong a character is, but how many transformation they have unlocked?

No. I'm saying that the fusion is stronger when the full power of the fusees is stronger. Obviously with stronger transformations available to use, the stronger the fusion will become. If Goku would've had SSB in the Buu Saga, then Vegito would scaled from that rather than from SSJ3 Goku as his full power is now his SSB form. Same would happened if the roles would switched and it would be Vegeta with SSB instead, as Vegeta's full power (aka with his SSB form) will be the one factoring Vegito's strength

 

[ByAsura]

Ant wants us to continue this stuff in another thread. Let's move on to something else.

 

[ByAsura]

Yes so goten can't be that strong.

Pre-RoSAT SSJ Goten is far stronger than Piccolo and comparable to Gohan, who's above Shin. It is what it is.

If anything, this outright proves how completely unreliable the Shin = SSJ Cell Saga Goku because Gohan wasn't that much stronger than Goku before his power stagnated, yet he's stronger than Shin as a Super Saiyan.

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

Ant wants us to continue this stuff in another thread. Let's move on to something else.

I agree, I am also exhausted. Can I see your blog? Did you finish it and put the stuff we agreed upon?

Pre-RoSAT SSJ Goten is far stronger than Piccolo and comparable to Gohan, who's above Shin. It is what it is.

If anything, this outright proves how completely unreliable the Shin = SSJ Cell Saga Goku because Gohan wasn't that much stronger than Goku before his power stagnated, yet he's stronger than Shin as a Super Saiyan.

Yeah my scaling chain is wrong. Nobody said piccolo is stronger than SSJ Goten.

 

[ByAsura]

I'll finish it off sometime today. I was just waiting for everything to get concluded, and I have other stuff to do rn.

Also, I can't remember everything we discussed. This is what I have so far from just a few more edits.

I didn't say you did.

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

I'll finish it off sometime today. I was just waiting for everything to get concluded, and I have other stuff to do rn.

Also, I can't remember everything we discussed. This is what I have so far from just a few more edits.

I didn't say you did.

Okay notify me when you finish. Don't forget to tweak the stuff we agreed upon.

Oh you misunderstand, I'm saying I'm the one who incorrectly claimed that piccolo is stronger than SSJ Goten.

 

[ByAsura]

Ok.

 

[Antvasima]

Ant wants us to continue this stuff in another thread. Let's move on to something else.

Well, it is more that I would prefer if you try to apply what has been decided in the current discussion, and you, @AKM sama , @DarkDragonMedeus , or @GyroNutz start a new thread, possibly in the staff forum, regarding the overall speed scaling for DBZ, which we were originally supposed to handle here.

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

Well, it is more that I would prefer if you try to apply what has been decided in the current discussion, and you, @AKM sama , @DarkDragonMedeus , or @GyroNutz start a new thread, possibly in the staff forum, regarding the overall speed scaling for DBZ, which we were originally supposed to handle here.

I will handle that with akm. First let asura finish the blog so we establish the scaling first.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. AKM is taking a break at the moment though.

 

[Vizer04]

Can someone unlock Yajirobe's profile please?

 

[ByAsura]

Done.

 

[Vizer04]

Done.

Thank you

 

[ByAsura]

Have you finished editing?