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Dragon Ball Z Manga Power Scaling

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ByAsura said:
If PU was just base Gohan, why wouldn't that mean a Goku / Gohan fusion could go Super Saiyan?
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I mean, yes. That's exactly what the Elder Kai implies with "you may not even need to go Super Saiyan", as in, "you could, but you don't really have to"

Although I'd like the japanese statement for that line
 
He says

超サイヤ人になるなら 合体したあとで なったほうがええ ま そんなことせんでも じゅ~~~~~~~~~ぶんじゃろ

ポタラのパワーは それほどすごい!

The problem is that I don't know if these go together (they rarely use full stops, only the occasional ellipsis, in DB), and I don't know what the squiggly line is.

Most translations I get suggest the fusion can just transform into Super Saiyan afterwards, and that the Potara's power is amazing.

I'll have to ask a translator.
 
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Ok, so apparently the squiggly lines are the equivalent to elongation or giving a sing-songy tone.

So I think he is saying that they can transform after, and the Potara is amazing.

Also, asking the translation requests forum is like asking a brick wall. So I probably won't be able to get someone else.
 
ByAsura said:
He says

超サイヤ人になるなら 合体したあとで なったほうがええ ま そんなことせんでも じゅ~~~~~~~~~ぶんじゃろ

ポタラのパワーは それほどすごい!

The problem is that I don't know if these go together (they rarely use full stops, only the occasional ellipsis, in DB), and I don't know what the squiggly line is.
Click to expand...
They do go together, yes. The first phrase is incomplete, and the lack of punctuation of it just for the follow-up line to have surely points that way.

Anyway, he roughly says:

"If you want to become a Super Saiyan, it's better to be after being united. Even if you don't do that, the power of Potara is so great!"
 
ByAsura said:
Thank you.

So he's not even saying the Goku-Gohan fusion could beat him in base form, just that it's powerful.
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It do be like that.

This confirms that PU was written as just a base form at the time (because it wouldn't make sense to suggest SSJ if PU is a form that surpasses it), but de-confirms Base Form beating Buu.
 
GodlyCharmander said:
Because PU was only retconned as a form in Super, in the Anime specifically, not in the manga, meaning it's not even in Toriyama's script, while we do backscale stuff, we have to see things as they were written at the time. PU was just Base Gohan...
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It was also retconned in the manga. The Resurrection F manga also had Base Gohan losing his Ultinate form, so you're wrong
 
Gilad_Hyperstar said:
It was also retconned in the manga. The Resurrection F manga also had Base Gohan losing his Ultinate form, so you're wrong
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"that one manga that's a promo specifically for the movie did it, so you're wrong!1!!",
I don't know how that's even close to being relevant to the conversation, but aight bro. Manga Super very blantantly doesn't follow that crap, Gohan's full power is nothing other than... well, his full power, and he doesn't go for SSJ for an actual character motive ("I wanna be human" or someshit), which is stupid.
 
GodlyCharmander said:
"that one manga that's a promo specifically for the movie did it, so you're wrong!1!!",
I don't know how that's even close to being relevant to the conversation, but aight bro.
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It is because you say that only existed in the anime but this wrong. And as much as you don't like it, that is how Resurrection F went in the DBS manga. Not my problem you don't want to accept it

Oh and the movie is canon to both continuities. Resurrection F happened in the manga too, and that's how it happens.
GodlyCharmander said:
Manga Super very blantantly doesn't follow that crap, Gohan's full power is nothing other than... well, his full power, and he doesn't go for SSJ for an actual character motive ("I wanna be human" or someshit), which is stupid.
Click to expand...
He doesn't go SSJ because he wants to be human. He goes SSJ because he can't go into his Ultimate form. And that is also the case in the manga. Again, the RoF manga is right there, was made by Toriyama/Toyataro and is canon to the DBS manga
 
ByAsura said:
Whether that is or isn't the case, it's immaterial because of the actual translation.
Click to expand...
Retcons exists you know. Even if it was the case in Z, both versions of DBS retcons this aspect of Gohan.

The reason why Gohan doesn't need SSJ is because his Ultimate form makes that obsolete, so while in that form he can't get any stronger. However, Base Gohan still exists (and shown in both of DBS' versions)
 
ByAsura said:
I'm talking about the actual translation of Elder Kai's statement on Super Saiyan.
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If Gokhan (the fusion of Goku and Gohan) would've had his potential unleashed form like Gohan have, there would be no need to turn SSJ, as the form already makes SSJ useless.

Besides, if you says that PU is Gohan/Gokhan's base form only, then going SSJ would be useless again because even going SSJ won't make him any stronger than he already is

Both of these interpretations contradict Elder Kai's statement
 
You're missing the point.

Elder Kai never said they wouldn't need Super Saiyan to defeat Buu in the raws. What he said is that they can go Super Saiyan after fusing, and that it's relatively powerful even without the transformation.

Viz is notable for its extremely unreliable translations.
 
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I checked. The sentence is complete, and the panel has nothing else to say on that matter.

It only goes on to say Potara can only be done once and Elder Kai is a permanent fusion.

The panel shares the same order as the Viz one.
 
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I have a hard time keeping track of what our staff have accepted to be applied here.

@ByAsura

Can you give an explanation please?
 
Base Vegito was also not scared of Buuhan's power whatsoever, while Goku even with SSJ3 was terrified of him.

If he'd be much weaker than Buuhan, Vegito would've been scared to fight Buuhan in Base, which is false, as he was very confident even before transforming, unlike Goku and Vegeta who were scared before
 
ByAsura said:
But he didn’t even entertain the prospect of fighting Buu in base, he just transformed after a few panels. This is a gigantic leap in logic.
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Because fighting him in base was never a part of Vegito's plan. He could've easily killed him in any point during their fight, but chose not to since he wanted to provoke Buu into absorbing him

And if Vegito wouldn't been able to fight him in Base form, he would hurry and go SSJ since he would be scared of Buu's power otherwise
 
Gilad_Hyperstar said:
And if Vegito wouldn't been able to fight him in Base form, he would hurry and go SSJ since he would be scared of Buu's power otherwise
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Lack of fear doesn't make you comparable in power to your opponent.

Lack of fear can be just the person having "a way to beat them, so there's nothing to fear", and Vegito's way was SSJ. Lack of fear is not a valid reasoning to scale two characters, especially if the character who lacked fear have a form where he completely overwhelms the opponent, which could be the reason behind said lack of fear.

This is scant evidence at best.
 
Gilad_Hyperstar said:
If he'd be much weaker than Buuhan, Vegito would've been scared to fight Buuhan in Base, which is false, as he was very confident even before transforming, unlike Goku and Vegeta who were scared before
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Then why didn't he fight Buu in base? That would've been far more humilliating for Buu which was Vegito's objective so he could get inside his body.
 
Why would he even be scared if he can immediately transform into Super Saiyan/Super Saiyan 2 like he proceeded to do? Goku, on the other hand, doesn’t have anything past SS3.

Also, Vegito didn’t hurry (he sorta did, but I’ll get into that) because he just popped into existence. Buu stopped, and he had yet to even establish a name for himself. Plus, he went Super Saiyan in the third panel of all his appearances, so I don’t see how he wasn’t in any kind of hurry.
 
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Gilad_Hyperstar said:
Power levels, as well as AP from the kaioken are proven to be linear, so a KK6 Goku in Namek Saga would be more powerful than First Form Frieza (only by a very little though. 540k vs 530k), so he'd scale to Frieza's calc
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We don't do that. If Goku hasn't used KKx6 and its power level is not stated anywhere, we don't simply assume it and use that in scaling. Doing that would be as good as making power levels linear because one could anytime say that a hypothetical KKx2457 Goku should be at 2365578 power level which is equal to XYZ character, so XYZ character should be 2457 times stronger and you could do it for any character with any given power level making the whole thing linear. This is strictly prohibited.
 
AKM sama said:
We don't do that. If Goku hasn't used KKx6 and its power level is not stated anywhere, we don't simply assume it and use that in scaling. Doing that would be as good as making power levels linear because one could anytime say that a hypothetical KKx2457 Goku should be at 2365578 power level which is equal to XYZ character, so XYZ character should be 2457 times stronger and you could do it for any character with any given power level making the whole thing linear. This is strictly prohibited.
Click to expand...
It should at least be agreed that Power Levels ARE raised linearly with the Kaioken, this isn't an assumption, it has hard evidence that doesn't give us any reasonable doubt.
I agree that using a Kaioken that doesn't exist is dumb. But we should still apply to the ones stated to exist.

x2, x3, x4, x5, x10, x20.
 
So make First Form Frieza be above Kaioken times 5. I don't care though. It's already proven that Frieza is > KK4 Goku at the very least as Vegeta said Goku is no match for Frieza. However, Vegeta has no knowledge of KK10 so Goku scaling to second form Frieza is valid, especially since Goku's power level of 900,000 is close to Frieza's power of >1 million
 
The problem is that we have no proof that KKx6 is stronger than Frieza. We only know that KKx10 could be useful against 2nd Form
 
Vizer04 said:
The problem is that we have no proof that KKx6 is stronger than Frieza. We only know that KKx10 could be useful against 2nd Form
Click to expand...
We have. By power levels being linear when are increased by the kaioken. This is why we know KK6 Goku is stronger than Frieza
 
I don't know when "Kaioken x5" was ever used; if we're talking about the hypothetical statement Goku made about Great Ape Vegeta, I don't think that's evidence that he could use it at the time let alone if that was ever compared to 1st form Frieza on panel.
 
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