Dragon Ball Z Manga Power Scaling

[Antvasima]

AKM makes sense to me. We cannot base the entire scaling on assumptions and potential hyperbole.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

First of all, I don't disagree that Kid Buu as the power to destroy every planet and star in the universe "Over time" but I do not agree with using any specific timeframe whatsoever. Kid Buu is immortal, which means he could live to be Octodecillion years and still be young. He's actually existed since the beginning of time and there are hints that Gods of Destruction have been replaced before. So saying, "Not even the gods are that old" isn't really a counter argument. It just means he could eventually destroy it all and we cannot calculate speed from this hypothetical statement alone.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Being a threat to the universe is vague. Anybody capable of destroying planets and solar systems is a threat to the universe if they can live long enough and nobody is able to stop them. I would consider an angry man with a small hammer a threat to my car even if all he can do is put a dent at one or two places or break a glass or something.

That is a completely different case. The angry person can't actually destroy your car, as he lacks the power to do so even if he'll live forever. At most he can damage your car, break windows and such. which are bad, but the car itself wouldn't be destroyed by that

You don't need to be destroying anything and everything to be considered a threat. Just being a destructive maniac with enough power who can't be stopped by anybody is enough to be considered one.

Sure, except that with such low speed and power he'll not even threaten a single galaxy, let alone an entire universe

AKM makes sense to me. We cannot base the entire scaling on assumptions and potential hyperbole.

How is it hyperbole? None of the characters who were saying that are known to use hyperbole statements and were mostly pretty accurate when claiming stuff

 

[GodlyCharmander]

That would require a lot of assumptions. Where are all these living planets? Nothing states they are spread evenly throughout the universe.

Low ball to the average distance between each Earth-Like planets. It wouldn't require that many assumptions, we can still get the lowest possible distance to accomplish this feat.

Most planets we know about are planets in the rule of Freeza, so they probably are concentrated in a region.

That's false equivalency, Freeza is the emperor of the entire universe, his planets doesn't have a reason to be concentrated in a region. Either way, low balling is still plausible.

Plus, the statement could be an exaggeration to give a sense that Buu is a threat to everybody because nobody is there to stop him.

Context refutes this interpretation outright.
Old Kai says "After he is done with the Universe, he might come here", which flat out tell us destruction is the reasoning behind his threat.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

First of all, I don't disagree that Kid Buu as the power to destroy every planet and star in the universe "Over time" but I do not agree with using any specific timeframe whatsoever. Kid Buu is immortal, which means he could live to be Octodecillion years and still be young.

Proof? Kid Buu also isn't immortal. Only beings such as Post-Wish Future Zamasu are considered immortal in DB
Besides, why would anyone care about Buu when he'd be a thread in a googol years? The heat death of the universe in more of a threat than this "threat"

Oh, and the supreme kais said that when Buu finishes with the universe, he'd come for them. They would have no reason to fear him if they'd all be dead before then much like how no human is afraid that the sun will turn into a red giant and destroy the Earth

 

[GodlyCharmander]

I do not agree with using any specific timeframe whatsoever. Kid Buu is immortal, which means he could live to be Octodecillion years and still be young.

Why would Elder Kai care about Buu going to Kai Planet if everyone would have died of old age by that point? 75 million years seems a very reasonable timeframe.

 

[AKM sama]

That is a completely different case. The angry person can't actually destroy your car, as he lacks the power to do so even if he'll live forever. At most he can damage your car, break windows and such. which are bad, but the car itself wouldn't be destroyed by that

You completely missed my point. My point is that, I, as a person, would still call that angry man a threat to my car. For me, making a dent or two in my car with a hammer is posing a threat to it. This was to show how vague statements like being a threat are.

How is it hyperbole? None of the characters who were saying that are known to use hyperbole statements and were mostly pretty accurate when claiming stuff

If you don't consider Shin a valid source, then Kibito is not one either. Your point is that Shin was wrong about there being only 28 planets. And the original statement comes from Kibito who is no more credible.

That's false equivalency, Freeza is the emperor of the entire universe, his planets doesn't have a reason to be concentrated in a region. Either way, low balling is still plausible.

They are though. Considering Freeza never came to Earth, but he did know about Vegeta and Namek, which according to the map are located around the same sector in the universe, far away from Earth. We can assume Freeza mainly operates around that region.

Old Kai says "After he is done with the Universe, he might come here", which flat out tell us destruction is the reasoning behind his threat.

We have already discussed this. Old Kai's statement here is unreliable because there is no way Buu could have reached Kaioshin realm. It's possible he is speaking out of fear or he is exaggerating. It could also mean something like "Buu will come here eventually after he gets bored". Doesn't really mean he will destroy each and every planet.

You have my disagreement and I am not personally interested in having this argument here. I think Medeus also disagrees. And Ant does as well. If you seek more discussion, you can create a staff thread about it, but after that we have to create a discussion rule against revising DBZ speeds because this is exhausting.

 

[Antvasima]

Since AKM, Medeus, and I have rejected the Buu calculations when applied in the current manner, and this is a very long discussion thread, we should probably try to move on from further circular discussion about it, and focus on what seems like the best scaling approach without them, or with more reasonable replacements.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

You completely missed my point. My point is that, I, as a person, would still call that angry man a threat to my car. For me, making a dent or two in my car with a hammer is posing a threat to it. This was to show how vague statements like being a threat are.

Still false equivalence. No matter what the people say, it still wouldn't change the fact that the man is not a threat and will never be because he never have any power to destroy your car. At most he could do minor damage to it

If you don't consider Shin a valid source, then Kibito is not one either. Your point is that Shin was wrong about there being only 28 planets. And the original statement comes from Kibito who is no more credible.

Piccolo and the Old Kai said that too, both of which are far more credible than Shin is. Regardless, the reason Shin's statement is dismissed is because it is wrong, since even in the original manga it was clear there were way more than 28 planets, making it wrong, but when literally everyone says that Buu is a threat to the universe, chances are that he is

They are though. Considering Freeza never came to Earth, but he did know about Vegeta and Namek, which according to the map are located around the same sector in the universe, far away from Earth. We can assume Freeza mainly operates around that region.

Earth had no value to Frieza. Even King Cold later said it's nothing but a blue speck of a planet with little value to the empire.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

You completely missed my point. My point is that, I, as a person, would still call that angry man a threat to my car. For me, making a dent or two in my car with a hammer is posing a threat to it. This was to show how vague statements like being a threat are.


If you don't consider Shin a valid source, then Kibito is not one either. Your point is that Shin was wrong about there being only 28 planets. And the original statement comes from Kibito who is no more credible.


They are though. Considering Freeza never came to Earth, but he did know about Vegeta and Namek, which according to the map are located around the same sector in the universe, far away from Earth. We can assume Freeza mainly operates around that region.

Again, false equivalency.
Not knowing a planet, considered worthless and small, on the edge of the universe, and knowing two planets doesn't automatically mean all your other hundreds of planets are located in that specific area.

"The emperor of the universe, that has only conquered planets in this... specific section", this makes no sense, and was never stated by any sources.

We have already discussed this. Old Kai's statement here is unreliable because there is no way Buu could have reached Kaioshin realm. It's possible he is speaking out of fear or he is exaggerating. It could also mean something like "Buu will come here eventually after he gets bored". Doesn't really mean he will destroy each and every planet.

I do not have an answer to that, so I concede. Appealing to the dimension disrupting ability doesn't seem plausible as well.

 

[Stefano4444]

Was Cell's Kamehameha Solar System Explosion speed feat rejected too or we are still discussing about that? Since even by lowballing it we should get Massively FTL which can be used to support Massively FTL+ for Buu Saga characters.

Anyway, returning with the proposed scaling, aside for Android #17, Pre-ROSAT and Post-ROSAT Gotenks (as people have find some issues), i do still think that SSJ Grade 4 Goku and Supreme Kai Shin cases are still legitimate and can be applied, along with SSJ2 Cell Saga Gohan.

This when in come to both AP and Speed, on that i will not back down, if we agree that Base Goku reach Star level+ in the Buu Saga via scaling from Shin, then as far i'm concerned it also means that he its At least Massively FTL as well.

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

I agree that buu threatening the entire universe is unreliable, however, him being a threat to all life in the universe is completely plausible and actually supported by statements.
@Gilad_Hyperstar I suggest you either update your current calculation or preferably make a new calculation about buu targetting only planets with life. For the distance, we have a lot to work with such as the dark planet being in the edge of the universe where no light can reach or planet namek and vegeta being in different sectors of the universe than earth, or planet zoon being not under the control of freeza who rules over the whole galaxy etc. For time, you can use the life span of the supreme kai as the low end as he is the one responsible for life in the universe.

Was Cell's Kamehameha Solar System Explosion speed feat rejected too or we are still discussing about that? Since even by lowballing it we should get Massively FTL which can be used to support Massively FTL+ for Buu Saga characters.

Anyway, returning with the proposed scaling, aside for Android #17 and #18, Pre-ROSAT and Post-ROSAT Gotenks (as people have find some issues), i do still think that SSJ Grade 4 Goku and Supreme Kai Shin cases are still legitimate and can be applied, along with SSJ2 Cell Saga Gohan.

This when in come to both AP and Speed, on that i will not back down, if we agree that Base Goku reach Star level+ in the Buu Saga via scaling from Shin, then as far i'm concerned it also means that he its At least Massively FTL as well.

Cells speed feat is worthless, using the games time frame it's like 70c.
The scaling discussion is done, nobody is arguing against it.
Base Goku is large star level.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

I agree that buu threatening the entire universe is unreliable, however, him being a threat to all life in the universe is completely plausible and actually supported by statements.
@Gilad_Hyperstar I suggest you either update your current calculation or preferably make a new calculation about buu targetting only planets with life. For the distance, we have a lot to work with such as the dark planet being in the edge of the universe where no light can reach or planet namek and vegeta being in different sectors of the universe than earth, or planet zoon being not under the control of freeza who rules over the whole galaxy etc. For time, you can use the life span of the supreme kai as the low end as he is the one responsible for life in the universe.

Sure, I can edit the calc with only the planets with life as a low-balled result, since Buu would likely not care about the lifeless planets.

Cells speed feat is worthless, using the games time frame it's like 70c.

Still something when people say no FTL feats exists in the verse

 

[Stefano4444]

Cells speed feat is worthless, using the games time frame it's like 70c.

I'm not talking about the game timeframe, since that its non canon.

Just do what we have done with Beerus's reacting to the universal destruction, just apply a timeframe of 15 seconds.

 

[Vizer04]

We still need to discuss about this, it doesn't contradict the manga and as far as i know we accept statements from this guide.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

If we accepted Shin being = Cell Games SSJ Goku, which have even less evidence than this (since just because Shin is scared of Dabura who is equal to Cell doesn't mean he's comparable to SSJ Goku, who wasn't afraid of Cell at all despite his power), then there's no reason to deny the SSJ Grade 3 statement, especially since even in canon the form was stated to give tremendous power at the cost of speed

 

[Vizer04]

just because Shin is scared of Dabura who is equal to Cell doesn't mean he's comparable to SSJ Goku, who wasn't afraid of Cell at all despite his power

That's because Shin is more of a coward than Goku is (and even then, Goku was visibly nervous about Cell's true power):

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Goku wasn't terrified though. His expression isn't that of fear

 

[ByAsura]

I forgot to put the sandbox here.

This is just the ratings. It hasn't been properly formatted yet.

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

I forgot to put the sandbox here.

This is just the ratings. It hasn't been properly formatted yet.

I found a lot of issues with this, I'm confused on some stuff you wrote.

Raditz casually matched Piccolo using both arms at once with a single arm. >>>>>>>>>59.2 exatons and >>0.54c.

That doesn't make him twice as strong, this isn't like one piece.

Goku's capable of Kaioken x10. >>4.89 Tenatons and >>>>>>>>>21.7c.

First Form Frieza casually destroyed planet Vegeta. >4.89 Tenatons and >>>>>>>>>2.16c.

??? I though we scaled Goku to 6x below first form freeza and scaled 2nd form freeza to kk10?
Also how come freeza 1st and 2nd form scale to and above kk10 Goku respectively but they don't scale to his speed? Both of them should be 21 c.

Third Form Frieza outclassed Piccolo massively. >>>>>>>4.89 Tenatons and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>2.17c

The current speed blog scales 3rd form freeza above Goku via his statement. He would naturally scale as well. Why do they only start scaling to 21 c with vegeta and final form freeza?

Goku was afraid of his own power, meaning he should be faster than a previous Kaioken x10. He's comparable to Frieza, and powered up at least once. >>>>>>>>>4.89 Tenatons and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>21.7c.

No "likely 21c"? We scale kaioken 10x Goku as a likely right now because we don't know if he can actually go into kaioken 10x after his gravity training (which is dumb). This is the whole reason why we have a "likely MFTL+" instead of a full tier. This would also affect AP, which just makes things convoluted, I think we should just remove the likely.

Semi-Perfect Cell is far superior to 16, although his boosts demonstrably don't scale to the factor of his and the Androids' own strength. >>>>>>>489.472522888 Tenatons and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>1086.8317708c.

How come? He absorbs them adding their capabilities above their own and significantly amplifying them. He should retain the 2x multiplier.

Half of FSS Goku's power terrified Trunks and Vegeta. >>>>>>>>>978.945045776 Tenatons and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>2173.6635416c.

Why did you multiply his speed by 2? I thought you guys didn't accept power percentage statements to affect speed as well?
This is also inconsistent, why did you apply this to Goku using 50% but not to 17's 50% statement or raditz?

Super Perfect Cell could have destroyed the solar system, and was faster than SS2 Gohan initially. 1.053 KiloFOE and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>2173.6635416c.

SPC is stronger than SSJ buu saga Goku, he also scales to 50000c. Wait... 50000 c?

Super Saiyan is a 50x multiplier. >>>>>>>1.02398520441 Foe and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>54341.58854c.

Huh? I thought akman rejected the multipliers? Cool.

Post-Time Chamber Gotenks is stronger than Super Saiyan Gotenks. >>>>105.3 KiloFOE and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>2717079.427c.

You are missing 2 more multipliers. Post ROSAT base Gotenks scales above pre ROSAT SSJ Gotenks who scales to that^. Base vegito scales above buutenks.

 

[ByAsura]

I'll be gone for a while after this post. I'll make sure to respond to anyone tomorrow.

That doesn't make him twice as strong, this isn't like one piece.

It's the logic used in the last blog, and Piccolo was using both arms at once to push against him, yet Raditz repelled it. I'll add all the scans later.

??? I though we scaled Goku to 6x below first form freeza and scaled 2nd form freeza to kk10?
Also how come freeza 1st and 2nd form scale to and above kk10 Goku respectively but they don't scale to his speed? Both of them should be 21 c.

No, it's 10x because Goku is capable of a x10. At the very least, the person who implemented the scaling agrees with me. Has Goku even done a Kaioken x6?

I'm pretty sure we don't scale him to speed, just power.

The current speed blog scales 3rd form freeza above Goku via his statement. He would naturally scale as well. Why do they only start scaling to 21 c with vegeta and final form freeza?

No "likely 21c"? We scale kaioken 10x Goku as a likely right now because we don't know if he can actually go into kaioken 10x after his gravity training (which is dumb). This is the whole reason why we have a "likely MFTL+" instead of a full tier. This would also affect AP, which just makes things convoluted, I think we should just remove the likely.

Why should they scale? They're more powerful, but this is a Kaio-ken speed multiplier.

How come? He absorbs them adding their capabilities above their own and significantly amplifying them. He should retain the 2x multiplier.

He should not. He incorporates their designs to an extent. He doesn't have their infinite energy reactors (shown by the fact that he loses a lot of energy against Goku, and can actually be sensed by the Z-Fighters/sense their power), and Perfect Cell would be a tiny amp, not a well over 2x amp, considering that he'd already absorbed someone more powerful than 18.

Why did you multiply his speed by 2? I thought you guys didn't accept power percentage statements to affect speed as well?

This is also inconsistent, why did you apply this to Goku using 50% but not to 17's 50% statement or raditz?

Because halving your own power is different from being twice someone else.

I just forgot for 17. I'll do that when I get back. But that strongly depends on half of 17's power being comparable to Future Trunks/1 arm Future Gohan.

SPC is stronger than SSJ buu saga Goku, he also scales to 50000c. Wait... 50000 c?

We discussed this. SPC scales to SS2 Buu Saga Gohan, who's superior to SS1 Buu Saga Goku.

You are missing 2 more multipliers. Post ROSAT base Gotenks scales above pre ROSAT SSJ Gotenks who scales to that^. Base vegito scales above buutenks.

I didn't miss the Post-ROSAT amp (check it again), I just didn't add the Super Saiyan multipliers for Post-ROSAT.

Why does Base Vegito scale above Buutenks?

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

It's the logic used in the last blog, and Piccolo was using both arms at once to push against him, yet Raditz repelled it. I'll add all the scans later.

The last blog doesn't use this logic. This doesn't make him twice as strong, you need actual in universe proof that 2 arms are twice as strong as one.

No, it's 10x because Goku is capable of a x10. At the very least, the person who implemented the scaling agrees with me.

I'm pretty sure we don't scale him to speed, just power.

What? That's the same guy arguing that 90000 to 900000 is linear, that would make Freeza scale to roughly 6x Goku. and 2nd form freeza scales to above 10x Goku. Ya'll the same dudes who used Goku being useful against second form freeza as proof that he downscales.
Why not? If you have a higher power level than someone then you are both faster AND stronger, unless explicitly stated otherwise, example Burter or dyspo.

Why should they scale? They're more powerful, but this is a Kaio-ken speed multiplier.

Same as above. Goku literally says he can't beat 3rd form freeza. Seems like pretty clear cut scaling to that 21 c. And continuing with your logic, there'd be no reason for vegeta and final form freeza to scale to kk10 speed.

Because halving your own power is different from being twice someone else.

I just forgot for 17. I'll do that when I get back.

Correct.
Then do that for SSJ2 Gohan too, as well as Buu's absorptions.

We discussed this. SPC scales to SS2 Buu Saga Gohan.

Yeah I know, you didn't scale his speed to him however.

I didn't miss the Post-ROSAT amp, I just didn't add the Super Saiyan multipliers for Post-ROSAT.

For what reason?

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

No, it's 10x because Goku is capable of a x10. At the very least, the person who implemented the scaling agrees with me.

Goku scales to 1/10th of Second Form Frieza's power, but due to kaioken's linearity the power levels would place him at 1/6th of First Form Frieza's power level, not 1/10th of it. The calc for Frieza was done by his first form, so Goku isn't 10 times weaker than First Form Frieza

Frieza had a power level of 530,000. Goku had a PL of 90,000. With a KK6, that would be 540,000, which is relatively on par with First Form Frieza

I'm pretty sure we don't scale him to speed, just power.

Kaioken increases both speed and AP. This is why Saiyan Saga KK2 Goku and Vegeta are FTL

Why should they scale? They're more powerful, but this is a Kaio-ken speed multiplier.

He should not. He incorporates their designs to an extent. He doesn't have their infinite energy reactors (shown by the fact that he loses a lot of energy against Goku, and can actually be sensed by the Z-Fighters/sense their power), and Perfect Cell would be a tiny amp, not a well over 2x amp, considering that he'd already absorbed someone more powerful than 18.

Uhh what? He should still be way stronger than the combined power of his Imperfect form + Android 17, as even 17 was nothing compared to Imperfect Cell, and Semi-Perfect Cell stomped 16, who was equal to Imperfect Cell

That would give at least twice the result, since both Cell and Android 17 scale to 489 Tenatons

We discussed this. SPC scales to SS2 Buu Saga Gohan, who's superior to SS1 Buu Saga Goku.

That should be included in the explainations

Why does Base Vegito scale above Buutenks?

Vegito is stronger than a hypothetical fusion of Goku and Gohan, who doesn't need Super Saiyan to defeat Buuhan

The last blog doesn't use this logic. This doesn't make him twice as strong, you need actual in universe proof that 2 arms are twice as strong as one.

When Cell broke Gohan's arm, Gohan stated he lost half of his power

 

[Vizer04]

I made a blog with all the AP values and Speeds. I removed the arrows because it was very difficult to read. Also, i upscaled Goku with KKx6 above 1st Form Frieza as many people suggested (Fluffy included)

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

He should not. He incorporates their designs to an extent. He doesn't have their infinite energy reactors (shown by the fact that he loses a lot of energy against Goku, and can actually be sensed by the Z-Fighters/sense their power), and Perfect Cell would be a tiny amp, not a well over 2x amp, considering that he'd already absorbed someone more powerful than 18.

I forgort.
Why would that matter at all? He absorbs them and gets stronger. Are you suggesting that he gets less stronger than the sum of his and their powers? Since it's clearly shown that he not only gets that strong but surpasses by a lot as seen with 18. His perfect amp was far far greater than 2x. So 17's amp would be at least the sum of their powers.

Why does Base Vegito scale above Buutenks?

At least Solar System level, far higher as a Super Saiyan (Should be even stronger than Buu with Gotenks absorbed as Elder Kai believed Goku and Gohan fusion wouldn't need SSJ to beat him[1], and Vegito should be stronger which is also confirmed in a guide[2], effortlessly toyed with and dominated Super Buu after he absorbed Gohan as a Super Saiyan and could kill him any time[3])

When Cell broke Gohan's arm, Gohan stated he lost half of his power

You're right.

I made a blog with all the AP values and Speeds. I removed the arrows because it was very difficult to read. Also, i upscaled Goku with KKx6 above 1st Form Frieza as many people suggested (Fluffy included)

You did a good job with the values in the freeza saga. Asura can copy off that.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

I made a blog with all the AP values and Speeds. I removed the arrows because it was very difficult to read. Also, i upscaled Goku with KKx6 above 1st Form Frieza as many people suggested (Fluffy included)

OH! That's that good shit

 

[Antvasima]

I forgot to put the sandbox here.

This is just the ratings. It hasn't been properly formatted yet.

@AKM sama @DarkDragonMedeus @GyroNutz

What do you think about this?

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

I made a blog with all the AP values and Speeds. I removed the arrows because it was very difficult to read. Also, i upscaled Goku with KKx6 above 1st Form Frieza as many people suggested (Fluffy included)

One problem: Dabura was actually toying with Gohan and was confident he could easily beat SSJ Gohan after they fought

Besides, Gohan's power stagnated since he was a boy, meaning his SSJ form when he fought Dabura was at most equal to his Cell Games SSJ form

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I think By Asura's missed some important multipliers, plus the fact that Frieza should be upscaling from Kaioken Goku's speed not just base Goku. His 1st form at least upscales from Kaioken x2 or even Kaioken x4 arguably. And 3rd form Frieza would perhaps upscale from a Kaioken x10 assuming he's legit capable of it at the time. Where as, it seems Vizer's had some more hypotheticals such as 1st form assuming to be equal to Kaioken x10 via estimated PL numbers.

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

I think By Asura's missed some important multipliers, plus the fact that Frieza should be upscaling from Kaioken Goku's speed not just base Goku. His 1st form at least upscales from Kaioken x2 or even Kaioken x4 arguably. And 3rd form Frieza would perhaps upscale from a Kaioken x10 assuming he's legit capable of it at the time. Where as, it seems Vizer's had some more hypotheticals such as 1st form assuming to be equal to Kaioken x10 via estimated PL numbers.

Pfizer actually got it right. 1st form freeza scales to a hypothetical kk6 and 2nd form freeza scales to kk10. However both of them have ditched the likely kk10x thing and opted for a full speed tier.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Pfizer actually got it right.

Did you just call this man a whole-ass vaccine?

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Where as, it seems Vizer's had some more hypotheticals such as 1st form assuming to be equal to Kaioken x10 via estimated PL numbers.

Power levels, as well as AP from the kaioken are proven to be linear, so a KK6 Goku in Namek Saga would be more powerful than First Form Frieza (only by a very little though. 540k vs 530k), so he'd scale to Frieza's calc

Goku also can definitely use kaioken times 10, as he used it with zero issues in the Frieza Saga (that was on the same day he arrived), as well as Goku doesn't lie about his abilities or exaggarates them.

Also, the mastery on kaioken isn't reliant on power levels, but by how much he trains with the technique

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

PLs were never agreed to be 100% linear, Kaioken yes, but not PLs. I know Kaioken seems to treat PLs as linear thus far, but that doesn't mean every single change in PL is 100% linear else wear. That, and Kaioken x2 had a 180000 showing on panel, but not the rest and most are otherwise hypothetical.

Also, his base power level does still have effect on Kaioken; less to do with the ability to activate it in the 1st place and more due to how much stamina it consumes. King Kai initially though going past Kaioken x2 would simply kill Goku as soon as it wears off and told him not to use it until he gets stronger. But then was King Kai admitting he was comparing Goku too much to himself afterwards.

Whether or not he has the ability to activate it, whether he can activate it without completely draining himself may or may not be a different story.

 

[AKM sama]

I forgot to put the sandbox here.

When you format it, please remove the excessive arrows.

Also, please make it with AP values only for less confusion. Speed is already listed separately in this blog.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

PLs were never agreed to be 100% linear, Kaioken yes, but not PLs. I know Kaioken seems to treat PLs as linear thus far, but that doesn't mean every single change in PL is 100% linear else wear. That, and Kaioken x2 had a 180000 showing on panel, but not the rest and most are otherwise hypothetical.

Yes they are. Kaioken multiplies both base power level and AP linearly. We see it cleatly in both the Saiyan Saga and Namek Saga. There's nothing hypothetical when it was proven that kaioken increases both power level and AP consistently.

I also proved it in an earlier comment so you should check it out, but I'll repeat myself here

Saiyan Saga: Base Goku was 8000, with KK2 he's 16000 and with KK3 he's 24000

Namek Saga: Base Goku was 90,000. With times 2 it becomes 180,000

Frieza Saga: Goku was 3 million, with KK20 it became 60 million

Also, his base power level does still have effect on Kaioken; less to do with the ability to activate it in the 1st place and more due to how much stamina it consumes. King Kai initially though going past Kaioken x2 would simply kill Goku as soon as it wears off and told him not to use it until he gets stronger. But then was King Kai admitting he was comparing Goku too much to himself afterwards.

He could use higher power because Goku trained to master the technique, not because he got stronger. That's also how he got it in the first place. He got stronger as a result of his training to master the technique

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

The problem with that is that we don't assume Recoome, Burter and Jeice are stronger than a hypothetical Kaioken x7 Saiyan saga Goku nor do we better yet assume Master Roshi is exactly 36x stronger than the fodder farmer. So saying PLs are 100% linear is factually incorrect. That, and Recoome and others don't downscale from 1st form Frieza like Ginyu does.

Those are just rarer examples with going from Over 8000 to Over 16000 or going from 90000 to 180000. We visibly see those examples, but they don't prove every other example and I need to prove the negatives on the rest.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

PLs were never agreed to be 100% linear, Kaioken yes, but not PLs. I know Kaioken seems to treat PLs as linear thus far, but that doesn't mean every single change in PL is 100% linear else wear.

I am sorry, but every use of Kaioken has been linear in terms of Power Level while the concept was a thing. It was linear when it was introduced on Saiyan Saga, and it remained linear throughout the remaining of the Freeza Saga.

Kaioken has proven that it is linear without any reasonable doubt.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

The problem with that is that we don't assume Recoome, Burter and Jeice are stronger than a hypothetical Kaioken x7 Saiyan saga Goku nor do we better yet assume Master Roshi is exactly 36x stronger than the fodder farmer. So saying PLs are 100% linear is factually incorrect. That, and Recoome and others don't downscale from 1st form Frieza like Ginyu does.

I am sorry, but we are not treating PL itself as a linear concept, but we're saying that KAIOKEN's PL is raised linearly. So people who scales above it's values should be scaled accordingly, it's a matter of scaling, PL is still not linear in the rest of the show.

 

[Vizer04]

The problem with that is that we don't assume Recoome, Burter and Jeice are stronger than a hypothetical Kaioken x7 Saiyan saga Goku

And we don't have any reason to do so? As far as i know there aren't any official PLs for the Ginyu Force (excluding the Captain, of course) unlike Goku and Frieza, both characters that we do have confirmed power levels.

Power levels in the range between 90,000 to 1,000,000 are linear as Fluffy, Gilad and me have demostrated.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

I am sorry, but we are not treating PL itself as a linear concept, but we're saying that KAIOKEN's PL is raised linearly. So people who scales above it's values should be scaled accordingly, it's a matter of scaling, PL is still not linear in the rest of the show.

Exactly. What I say is that each time kaioken was used, the power levels rose linearly.

That is not at all saying that all power levels are linear, but when Goku used the kaioken, the power levels rose linearly alongside the AP