Dragon Ball Z Manga Power Scaling

[GyroNutz]

What do you think about this?

The numbers seem fine, arrows get very excessive though and makes it hard to read. I also think the SPC and SS2 Gohan stuff could be formatted better - the AP requires you to read the Buu Saga scaling to understand the Cell Saga stuff, and the speed claims that SS2 Gohan is 25x faster than SPC, which seems like an oversight.

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

The numbers seem fine, arrows get very excessive though and makes it hard to read. I also think the SPC and SS2 Gohan stuff could be formatted better - the AP requires you to read the Buu Saga scaling to understand the Cell Saga stuff, and the speed claims that SS2 Gohan is 25x faster than SPC, which seems like an oversight.

Asura just wrote it wrong. SPC does actually scale to Gohan.

 

[GyroNutz]

Asura just wrote it wrong. SPC does actually scale to Gohan.

Yeah, I'm pretty sure it was just an oversight.

 

[ByAsura]

I can’t see the Buuhan links rn, so I’ll take a look later.

The last blog doesn't use this logic. This doesn't make him twice as strong, you need actual in universe proof that 2 arms are twice as strong as one.

I just blatantly showed you an example.

What? That's the same guy arguing that 90000 to 900000 is linear, that would make Freeza scale to roughly 6x Goku. and 2nd form freeza scales to above 10x Goku. Ya'll the same dudes who used Goku being useful against second form freeza as proof that he downscales.
Why not? If you have a higher power level than someone then you are both faster AND stronger, unless explicitly stated otherwise, example Burter or dyspo.

We dropped that logic. Only Gilad was arguing linear power levels, while Vizier was using the feat itself.

If we were using that logic, Frieza’s other forms would be Small Star level.

Same as above. Goku literally says he can't beat 3rd form freeza. Seems like pretty clear cut scaling to that 21 c. And continuing with your logic, there'd be no reason for vegeta and final form freeza to scale to kk10 speed.

Fine for his Third Form then, but that could refer to strength alone/ki.

Correct.

Then do that for SSJ2 Gohan too, as well as Buu's absorptions.

Gohan was just an accident.

Buu’s absorption can weaken and strengthen him, as shown with Fat Buu being a thing. Suggesting linear scaling doesn’t make sense, imo.

For what reason?

Because I’m not quite finished.

Goku scales to 1/10th of Second Form Frieza's power, but due to kaioken's linearity the power levels would place him at 1/6th of First Form Frieza's power level, not 1/10th of it. The calc for Frieza was done by his first form, so Goku isn't 10 times weaker than First Form Frieza

Frieza had a power level of 530,000. Goku had a PL of 90,000. With a KK6, that would be 540,000, which is relatively on par with First Form Frieza

Kaioken increases both speed and AP. This is why Saiyan Saga KK2 Goku and Vegeta are FTL

This logic was dumped by Vizier himself. That was the entire point of his argument.

Also, we don’t assume power levels are linear boosts without multipliers.

Uhh what? He should still be way stronger than the combined power of his Imperfect form + Android 17, as even 17 was nothing compared to Imperfect Cell, and Semi-Perfect Cell stomped 16, who was equal to Imperfect Cell

I’m not saying he’s stronger, just that the strength isn’t demonstrably equal, it’s actually way higher than the sum of their parts. We have no reason to scale speed.

That should be included in the explainations

Sure.

I forgort.
Why would that matter at all? He absorbs them and gets stronger. Are you suggesting that he gets less stronger than the sum of his and their powers? Since it's clearly shown that he not only gets that strong but surpasses by a lot as seen with 18. His perfect amp was far far greater than 2x. So 17's amp would be at least the sum of their powers.

I’m suggesting he incorporates their designs. Nothing suggests he gets their exact strength (this aspect is even higher for PC) and speed, and it’s demonstrably shown he doesn’t.

You did a good job with the values in the freeza saga. Asura can copy off that.

I’ll take a look later.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Fine for his Third Form then, but that could refer to strength alone/ki.

Note: It has been stated numerous times across various sources in the series that a larger ki means greater statistics -- statistics such as strength[1] and overall power[2], speed[3], aerial capabilities[4], destructive capacity[4], and defense[4].

Yes, it was referring to Ki, Ki is overall statistics, therefore Freeza should be at least fast enough to keep up with Pre Zenkai Goku, because it's very... unreasonable to say Kaioken x10 Goku is losing to someone ten times slower than him.

 

[ByAsura]

It's kind of weird due to Ginyu Force stuff/Namek Goku and multipliers, but I can see your point.

Also, I did plan to scale First Form Frieza above Kaioken x4 Namek Goku in speed, but I kind of forgot.

 

[ByAsura]

I looked at the Buutenks thing.

It seems extremely ridiculous given that they're claiming a fusion of Goku and Vegeta, two equal characters, surpasses a fusion between Goku and someone far above Super Buu simply due to a rivalry boost that's passingly alluded to at best in the manga.

That's not to mention that even this scan doesn't present it as confirmation. They said there's a possibility that this is the case, not that it's objectively stronger than this hypothetical fusion.

 

[StekFence]

It seems extremely ridiculous given that they're claiming a fusion of Goku and Vegeta, two equal characters, surpasses a fusion between Goku and someone far above Super Buu simply due to a rivalry boost that's passingly alluded to at best in the manga.

same franchise that can’t decide whether or not kid buu is stronger than Kid buu plus Gotenks plus piccolo plus gohan plus a Kai, plus some others prob.

 

[ByAsura]

This is why we tend to avoid guides unless they're substantiated by the manga or consistent.

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

I just blatantly showed you an example.

Yeah.

We dropped that logic. Only Gilad was arguing linear power levels, while Vizier was using the feat itself.

If we were using that logic, Frieza’s other forms would be Small Star level.

I don't understand. Didn't you guys accept this because kk10 Goku would be useful against 2nd form freeza? That CRT's whole point was to make 90000-900000 linear.

Fine for his Third Form then, but that could refer to strength alone/ki.

Power level corresponds to both speed and power, 2 dudes with the same power level have the same speed and AP unless in very specific circumstances which is when it's stated otherwise like grade 3, burter, or dyspo.
And like pokemon man said, it's pretty dumb if Goku loses to someone who is 10x slower than him.

Gohan was just an accident.

Buu’s absorption can weaken and strengthen him, as shown with Fat Buu being a thing. Suggesting linear scaling doesn’t make sense, imo.

I mean multiply gohan's speed by 2.
Buu's absorptions don't weaken him necessarily. When buu absorbed the daikaioshin, he should've gotten astronomically stronger however he couldn't utilize his god ki, and his kind nature suppressed him which is why he appeared to have gotten weaker. This doesn't discredit buu's absorptions being linear.

I’m suggesting he incorporates their designs. Nothing suggests he gets their exact strength (this aspect is even higher for PC) and speed, and it’s demonstrably shown he doesn’t.

It's shown his amps far surpass a mere addition. It's actually a low ball. I still don't understand what you mean by incorporating their designs.

I looked at the Buutenks thing.

It seems extremely ridiculous given that they're claiming a fusion of Goku and Vegeta, two equal characters, surpasses a fusion between Goku and someone far above Super Buu simply due to a rivalry boost that's passingly alluded to at best in the manga.

That's not to mention that even this scan doesn't present it as confirmation. They said there's a possibility that this is the case, not that it's objectively stronger than this hypothetical fusion.

This is why we tend to avoid guides unless they're substantiated by the manga or consistent.

That guide statement literally reaffirms something in the manga.
Notice how elder kai says they won't need SSJ? This means goku + gohan fusion will not be using potential unleashed. This is important because base Gohan is relative to vegeta. So it is entirely plausible that Vegito got stronger than gokhan via a rival boost.

 

[Nullflowerblush]

Using Potential Unleashed? That is just his normal power now.

 

[ByAsura]

I don't understand. Didn't you guys accept this because kk10 Goku would be useful against 2nd form freeza? That CRT's whole point was to make 90000-900000 linear.

Vizier told me otherwise. Also, like I said, 2nd Form Frieza would be Small Star level if this logic was accepted.

Power level corresponds to both speed and power, 2 dudes with the same power level have the same speed and AP unless in very specific circumstances which is when it's stated otherwise like grade 3, burter, or dyspo.

Which seems pretty stupid because of how multipliers are linear and get the same multiplied PL.

And like pokemon man said, it's pretty dumb if Goku loses to someone who is 10x slower than him.

I can see your point.

I mean multiply gohan's speed by 2.

Planning to, just forgot.

Buu's absorptions don't weaken him necessarily. When buu absorbed the daikaioshin, he should've gotten astronomically stronger however he couldn't utilize his god ki, and his kind nature suppressed him which is why he appeared to have gotten weaker. This doesn't discredit buu's absorptions being linear.

It doesn't credit it either.

It's shown his amps far surpass a mere addition. It's actually a low ball. I still don't understand what you mean by incorporating their designs.

For strength. It's a non-linear addition for physical strength in one form that I'm already giving an equivalent amp for speed, so I don't get why we should assume the speed raises equally based on absorbing the androids.

Nvm on the incorporating designs, it was a dub-only thing.

That guide statement literally reaffirms something in the manga.
Notice how elder kai says they won't need SSJ? This means goku + gohan fusion will not be using potential unleashed. This is important because base Gohan is relative to vegeta. So it is entirely plausible that Vegito got stronger than gokhan via a rival boost.

Or because Gohan alone, who's made Super Saiyan obsolete, is already far above Super Buu.

Your assumption also makes no sense because Elder Kai was telling Goku to fuse with Gohan, not for Gohan to drop out of his form first (I'm assuming it's a form due to DBS).

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

We dropped that logic. Only Gilad was arguing linear power levels, while Vizier was using the feat itself.

No I wasn't. Don't put words in my mouth as this is extremely disrespectful.

What I argued is that since the power levels from 90,000 to 900,000 rise linearly with the kaioken increases alongside AP, scaling KK6 Goku to First Form Frieza is possible

If we were using that logic, Frieza’s other forms would be Small Star level.

So what? That isn't an argument against kaioken increases being linear.

Again, I'm not arguing they're generally linear, but whenever kaioken was used, it was proven that both AP as well as power levels rose linearly, which is why KK6 Goku scales to First Form Frieza

Fine for his Third Form then, but that could refer to strength alone/ki.

Higher ki = higher AP and speed in almost all cases. This was proven many times, and in the only times that doesn't apply is when it's specifically noted the form causes the user to lose speed (SSJ Grade 3)

Buu’s absorption can weaken and strengthen him, as shown with Fat Buu being a thing. Suggesting linear scaling doesn’t make sense, imo.

This logic was dumped by Vizier himself. That was the entire point of his argument.

I'm sorry but Vizer isn't WoG either. If you say he argued against it, maybe let him explain that

Also, we don’t assume power levels are linear boosts without multipliers.

Kaioken is a multiplier. The whole reason we're assuming KK6 Namek Saga Goku scales to First Form Frieza is because of the multiplier of the kaioken.

This is why we said the power level increases between 90,000 to 900,000 are linear. Because the kaioken was proven to increase them linearly

 

[ByAsura]

No I wasn't. Don't put words in my mouth as this is extremely disrespectful.

What I argued is that since the power levels from 90,000 to 900,000 rise linearly with the kaioken increases alongside AP, scaling KK6 Goku to First Form Frieza is possible

You're putting words in my mouth because I only said Vizier's argument, which is the one that was accepted and put onto the profiles, wasn't based on that.

So what? That isn't an argument against kaioken increases being linear.

Again, I'm not arguing they're generally linear, but whenever kaioken was used, it was proven that both AP as well as power levels rose linearly, which is why KK6 Goku scales to First Form Frieza

Higher ki = higher AP and speed in almost all cases. This was proven many times, and in the only times that doesn't apply is when it's specifically noted the form causes the user to lose speed (SSJ Grade 3)

Kaioken is a multiplier. The whole reason we're assuming KK6 Namek Saga Goku scales to First Form Frieza is because of the multiplier of the kaioken.

I'm going to be honest, I really just don't care and am not going to continue. We haven't accepted your logic in any capacity so far, and we're probably not going to. I'll let others argue because I'm doing a bunch of stuff this week.

You're using the linearity of Kaioken to apply to Second Form Frieza, who doesn't have Kaioken. That's extremely different from just simply using the Kaioken multiplier. It's upscaling another character with non-linear scaling, and backscaling another at the same time.

This is why we said the power level increases between 90,000 to 900,000 are linear. Because the kaioken was proven to increase them linearly

Kaioken increases all levels linearly. Applying it to random characters makes no sense.

Kaioken x2-4 (16,000-32,000) is linear in the Saiyan Saga, but why would we attempt to scale everyone in that tiering to Goku's kaioken levels?

I'm sorry but Vizer isn't WoG either. If you say he argued against it, maybe let him explain that

You're putting words in my mouth again.

I never said anything to this effect, what I said was that his logic, which isn't the stuff you're pushing now, is what was accepted.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

You're putting words in my mouth because I only said Vizier's argument, which is the one that was accepted and put onto the profiles, wasn't based on that.

No. I didn't said anything about what you say, I only said it's not nice to put words into my mouth to support your argument

I'm going to be honest, I really just don't care. We haven't accepted your logic in any capacity, and we're probably not going to.

That still doesn't change your argument. And still doesn't prove you're right.

You're using the linearity of Kaioken to apply to Second Form Frieza, you're not using the Kaioken multiplier itself.

I'm using both. The kaioken multiplier is linear. That was proven many times. And because both aspects are linear, then it works in both ways

Kaioken increases all levels linearly.

Yes. Including power levels. The power levels increases due to the kaioken increases linearly as well as the AP

This is why we can safely say KK6 Goku scale to First Form Frieza, as Goku's AP increases linearly alongside his power level

 

[ByAsura]

No. I didn't said anything about what you say, I only said it's not nice to put words into my mouth to support your argument

I didn't even say what you're claiming I did in the first place. I never put any words in your mouth.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

I didn't even say what you're claiming I did in the first place. I never put any words in your mouth.

Alright then. I apologize

This is why I'm getting so tired of arguing with you.

No need to be hostile toward me. I have noting against you and if I offended you I apologize for that

 

[ByAsura]

I deleted that last part afterwards. It is getting a bit tiresome, but I can't really blame you for it and everyone misunderstands everyone from time-to-time.

 

[Vizer04]

So, what do we do now? Did we accept scaling KKx6 above Frieza or not?

 

[Antvasima]

I do not know. Have our staff here reached some form of consensus yet?

 

[Vizer04]

Did we accept scaling KKx6 above Frieza or not?

 

[Vizer04]

Please, i need an answer so i can finish the blog

 

[Antvasima]

What do you think, ByAsura?

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

Vizier told me otherwise. Also, like I said, 2nd Form Frieza would be Small Star level if this logic was accepted.

What did you guys even accept then? If kk10 Goku scales to only 1st form freeza then that throws out the "useful against 2nd form" thing which is one of the main reasons why this scaling even works.

Which seems pretty stupid because of how multipliers are linear and get the same multiplied

PLs are only linear when kaioken or SSJ is used. In this case they are. Nevertheless, having a higher PL still corresponds to being faster as well as stronger.

It doesn't credit it either.

When buu absorbs dudes, he gets their powers, abilities and knowledge/traits. Absorption is not a multiplier he simply adds them to his own. It is logical that the ability is addition based and nothing to suggest otherwise.

For strength. It's a non-linear addition for physical strength in one form that I'm already giving an equivalent amp for speed, so I don't get why we should assume the speed raises equally based on absorbing the androids.

I was arguing it for strength in the first place bruh. You can apply the same logic for the PL thing raising the speed as well as strength. The important thing is that cell retains his 2x AP value and probably speed too.

Or because Gohan alone, who's made Super Saiyan obsolete, is already far above Super Buu.

Your assumption also makes no sense because Elder Kai was telling Goku to fuse with Gohan, not for Gohan to drop out of his form first (I'm assuming it's a form due to DBS).

Elder kai says "you may not need to". This implies that gokhan will get stronger if he goes SSJ which means he will be in base and not PU. Elder kai also says to not fuse in SSJ but in base so as to not shorten their life span. That "may" would not exist if Elder kai was telling Goku about PU, since he already knows that the form is obsolete. This is why gokhan being stronger than buutenks in base hence not needing SSJ is correct. + the elder kai's rival statement + the guide statement.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

What did you guys even accept then? If kk10 Goku scales to only 1st form freeza then that throws out the "useful against 2nd form" thing which is one of the main reasons why this scaling even works.

It doesn't work if KK10 Goku = First Form Frieza, as Second Form Frieza makes his first form to look like a joke (like when Vegeta's off guard blast couldn't even scratch Frieza, but he matched First Form Frieza)

However, since power levels that are increased by the kaioken are linear (as they're shown to be linear when raised through multipliers such as kaioken and SSJ), we can safely say KK6 Goku matches First Form Frieza, while Second Form Frieza upscales from KK10 Goku. Considering Goku with KK10 had a PL of 900,000 while Frieza's was >1 million, this is accurate

When buu absorbs dudes, he gets their powers, abilities and knowledge/traits. Absorption is not a multiplier he simply adds them to his own. It is logical that the ability is addition based and nothing to suggest otherwise.

Also considering SSJ3 Gotenks is >= Base Super Buu, that would mean Buu's power more than doubled as Buutenks. However we do know that Buu + Piccolo is actually weaker than Ultimate Gohan

Elder kai says "you may not need to". This implies that gokhan will get stronger if he goes SSJ which means he will be in base and not PU. Elder kai also says to not fuse in SSJ but in base so as to not shorten their life span. That "may" would not exist if Elder kai was telling Goku about PU, since he already knows that the form is obsolete. This is why gokhan being stronger than buutenks in base hence not needing SSJ is correct. + the elder kai's rival statement + the guide statement.

Yeah. We know that Base Gohan is = / = Ultimate Gohan because of DBS (Pretty sure that was in both versions), where we saw Base Gohan being pretty weak, but Ultimate Gohan being capable of fighting SSG-SSB level threats such as SSB Goku, Dyspo and Golden Frieza.

Gohan just have no reason to power down in the Buu Saga since his Ultimate form requires no stamina drain and makes SSJ obsolete

Besides, the anime gives us further proof that Vegito is more than a match for Buuhan even in his Base form

 

[Nullflowerblush]

Potential Unleashed is not a super state or any sort of transformation, it is a "super base form". All of his dormant power was drawn out and amplified beyond its limits by Elder Kai, and Gohan just has that power now. It is a similar situation to Goku infusing the power of the Super Saiyan God into his body.

Only the Super anime "portrays" it as a transformation, and we do not back-pedal off of Super, if memory serves me correctly. There are two separate sequels branching off of the original manga, so the Wiki avoids using either of them to powerscale Z characters.

Also, in the manga, Vegito transforms right off the bat, seemingly out of a sense of urgency. In the anime, though, Vegito is mega-confident and pummels Buu for a good thirty minutes or two before transforming. These two scenes are not at all compatible, so using the anime to support the manga in this instance

 

[Vizer04]

Since Asura and many other staff have disagreed with scaling KKx6 above Frieza, i decided to remove it from my blog.

Now it's finished, please read the blog and tell me if there's any mistakes.

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

Potential Unleashed is not a super state or any sort of transformation, it is a "super base form". All of his dormant power was drawn out and amplified beyond its limits by Elder Kai, and Gohan just has that power now. It is a similar situation to Goku infusing the power of the Super Saiyan God into his body.

Only the Super anime "portrays" it as a transformation, and we do not back-pedal off of Super, if memory serves me correctly. There are two separate sequels branching off of the original manga, so the Wiki avoids using either of them to powerscale Z characters.

Also, in the manga, Vegito transforms right off the bat, seemingly out of a sense of urgency. In the anime, though, Vegito is mega-confident and pummels Buu for a good thirty minutes or two before transforming. These two scenes are not at all compatible, so using the anime to support the manga in this instance

The Super anime is canon to the manga. That's like saying the potara is still permanent because we don't back scale to super. PU is indeed a transformation as it was retconned in super.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Potential Unleashed is not a super state or any sort of transformation, it is a "super base form". All of his dormant power was drawn out and amplified beyond its limits by Elder Kai, and Gohan just has that power now. It is a similar situation to Goku infusing the power of the Super Saiyan God into his body.

Uh no. That doesn't prove it. Gohan never dropped out of his Ultimate form in the Buu Saga, and since it makes SSJ obsolete, he has no reason to power down

Oh and RoF is canon to both the anime and the manga, and in both versions Gohan is no longer in his Ultimate form when he fights Frieza. Even in the Resurrection F manga, Gohan drops out of his Ultimate form and goes SSJ

Only the Super anime "portrays" it as a transformation, and we do not back-pedal off of Super, if memory serves me correctly. There are two separate sequels branching off of the original manga, so the Wiki avoids using either of them to powerscale Z characters.

Yes we do backscale from Super. The reason why Frieza is even High 5-A is because of the DBS Anime showing the feat of Frieza blowing planet Vegeta

Also, in the manga, Vegito transforms right off the bat, seemingly out of a sense of urgency.

Vegito wasn't scared at all when transforming. He just chose to do it to toy with Super Buu, not because he would otherwise die instantly or something. The moment they fused, they stopped fearing Buuhan, while Goku was terrified of him earlier

In the anime, though, Vegito is mega-confident and pummels Buu for a good thirty minutes or two before transforming. These two scenes are not at all compatible, so using the anime to support the manga in this instance

It still clearly shows that Vegito could've easily handled Buuhan in Base form, which supports the guide statement

 

[Vizer04]

I do not know. Have our staff here reached some form of consensus yet?

I think you can close this Ant. The only thing left is to put the blog on the verse page and upgrade SSJ Goku to 4-B.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

I think you can close this Ant. The only thing left is to put the blog on the verse page and upgrade SSJ Goku to 4-B.

Hold on, we're still discussing stuff. Shutting down the thread mid-conversation is pretty disrespectful

 

[Vizer04]

Hold on, we're still discussing stuff. Shutting down the thread mid-conversation is pretty disrespectful

I didn't said we should close the thread right now, but i apologize.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

I didn't said we should close the thread right now, but i apologize.

Alright then

 

[ByAsura]

What did you guys even accept then? If kk10 Goku scales to only 1st form freeza then that throws out the "useful against 2nd form" thing which is one of the main reasons why this scaling even works.

No it doesn't. 2nd Form Frieza has no other scaling, which is why he's not Small Star level.

When buu absorbs dudes, he gets their powers, abilities and knowledge/traits. Absorption is not a multiplier he simply adds them to his own. It is logical that the ability is addition based and nothing to suggest otherwise.

He also got the Supreme Kai's abilities, like the clothes beam and healing.

I was arguing it for strength in the first place bruh. You can apply the same logic for the PL thing raising the speed as well as strength. The important thing is that cell retains his 2x AP value and probably speed too.

Yes, I get that you were arguing for strength. I was telling you that I already doubled his strength and speed for Perfect Cell. The problem is that we have no reason to assume an additive boost for S-PC because PC is not an additive boost, and we don't know of any multiplier for him.

Elder kai says "you may not need to". This implies that gokhan will get stronger if he goes SSJ which means he will be in base and not PU. Elder kai also says to not fuse in SSJ but in base so as to not shorten their life span. That "may" would not exist if Elder kai was telling Goku about PU, since he already knows that the form is obsolete. This is why gokhan being stronger than buutenks in base hence not needing SSJ is correct. + the elder kai's rival statement + the guide statement.

Then I don't really see how this proves your point in any way because it's exactly what I was saying. It's just claiming that a fusion including someone between Super Buu and Buutenks is stronger than Buutenks.

That's good and all, but how does a rival boost between two characters weaker than him as Super Saiyan 3s (theoretically in Vegeta's case) that's not mentioned in the manga give this big a boost?

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

No it doesn't. 2nd Form Frieza has no other scaling, which is why he's not Small Star level.

Then answer me this, why was downscaling kk10 from 1st form freeza accepted?

He also got the Supreme Kai's abilities, like the clothes beam and healing.

Okay? Do you agree with me or?

Yes, I get that you were arguing for strength. I was telling you that I already doubled his strength and speed for Perfect Cell. The problem is that we have no reason to assume an additive boost for S-PC because PC is not an additive boost, and we don't know of any multiplier for him.

Doesn't that just support an additive boost even more? Look, we scale the androids, 16 and cell all to the same value, however they are not the same strength, cell could face tank piccolo's strongest move with no damage at all. Adding the androids powers to himself would be a minute boost to him. However SPC was a much more massive boost than that, seeing how he blitz stomped 16. This means an additive boost is actually a low ball. And considering that PC was such an astronomical boost and definitely not just additive, I find it hard to believe that we can't even add cells AP value with the androids.

Then I don't really see how this proves your point in any way because it's exactly what I was saying. It's just claiming that a fusion including someone between Super Buu and Buutenks is stronger than Buutenks.

That's good and all, but how does a rival boost between two characters weaker than him as Super Saiyan 3s (theoretically in Vegeta's case) that's not mentioned in the manga give this big a boost?

Look, base gohan ~ base vegeta ~ base Goku.
Base goku + base gohan > buutenks.
Therefore Base goku + base vegeta > buutenks.
I already showed that gohan fusing doesn't factor PU.
Add to this, despite the fact kibitoshin was present when elder kai stated that gokhan > buutenks, he was still shocked at how strong vegito was. And at the same time, it's when elder kai said that it doesn't hurt that they're rivals.

 

[ByAsura]

Then answer me this, why was downscaling kk10 from 1st form freeza accepted?

Because it was.

Okay? Do you agree with me or?

No. Because he retains characteristics even when weaker.

Doesn't that just support an additive boost even more?

Why would it support an additive boost if it's not an additive boost? That's my entire point.

Look, we scale the androids, 16 and cell all to the same value, however they are not the same strength, cell could face tank piccolo's strongest move with no damage at all. Adding the androids powers to himself would be a minute boost to him. However SPC was a much more massive boost than that, seeing how he blitz stomped 16. This means an additive boost is actually a low ball. And considering that PC was such an astronomical boost and definitely not just additive, I find it hard to believe that we can't even add cells AP value with the androids.

I already did a hell of a lot more for PC than it simply being additive.

I kind of agree with it being at least additive, but opinions on the matter aren't evidence at all, and we only have one boost from his perfect form that Cell boasts about being the strongest and fastest being in the universe.

Look, base gohan ~ base vegeta ~ base Goku.

Base goku + base gohan > buutenks.
Therefore Base goku + base vegeta > buutenks.
I already showed that gohan fusing doesn't factor PU.
Add to this, despite the fact kibitoshin was present when elder kai stated that gokhan > buutenks, he was still shocked at how strong vegito was. And at the same time, it's when elder kai said that it doesn't hurt that they're rivals.

Again, who says it's base?

You've shown nothing of the sort at all, especially since fusion retains combined characteristics, like Vegito being alive while Vegeta was dead and Goku was alive. It's entirely reasonable that Vegito would still be a Super Saiyan and have the potential boost.

Why would Gohan even drop out of the form in order to transform? That's exactly what he doesn't do in the manga.

I added the scan exactly because of Elder Kai's wording. How does that suggest it's an astronomical boost? He wouldn't have said 'it doesn't hurt', he would have said 'it helps'. This is not a boost or a downgrade if we go by his wording.

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

Because it was.

Bro, the reason. What is the evidence that supported Goku downscaling from freeza.

No. Because he retains characteristics even when weaker.

His characteristics are independent from his power. I already explained why his power decreased.

Why would it support an additive boost if it's not an additive boost? That's my entire point.
I already did a hell of a lot more for PC than it simply being additive.

I kind of agree with it being at least additive, but opinions on the matter aren't evidence at all, and we only have one boost from his perfect form that Cell boasts about being the strongest and fastest being in the universe.

He absorbs the androids integrating them into himself and becoming stronger. I've shown you that the amp itself is actually greater than a mere addition, so it's adding their power + more, in cells case however, it's much much more.

Again, who says it's base?

You've shown nothing of the sort at all, especially since fusion retains combined characteristics, like Vegito being alive while Vegeta was dead and Goku was alive. It's entirely reasonable that Vegito would still be a Super Saiyan and have the potential boost.

Why would Gohan even drop out of the form in order to transform? That's exactly what he doesn't do in the manga.

I added the scan exactly because of Elder Kai's wording. How does that suggest it's an astronomical boost? He wouldn't have said 'it doesn't hurt', he would have said 'it helps'. This is not a boost or a downgrade if we go by his wording.

I will repeat what I said before.

Elder kai says "you may not need to". This implies that gokhan will get stronger if he goes SSJ which means he will be in base and not PU. Elder kai also says to not fuse in SSJ but in base so as to not shorten their life span. That "may" would not exist if Elder kai was telling Goku about PU, since he already knows that the form is obsolete. This is why gokhan being stronger than buutenks in base hence not needing SSJ is correct. + the elder kai's rival statement + the guide statement.

This is why he would be fusing in base, because he cannot be in both super saiyan and PU at the same time.
That possibility is called head canon.
It doesn't need to be an astronomical boost, it is enough to put vegito over gokhan. This is reaffirmed in a guide statement.

 

[ByAsura]

Bro, the reason. What is the evidence that supported Goku downscaling from freeza.

What are you even asking exactly? I showed you the damn thread before.

It's just based on downscaling from 2nd Form Frieza by 10x.

That's what we accepted and what was put onto the profiles.

His characteristics are independent from his power. I already explained why his power decreased.

Again, what have you explained? You keep saying you've explained stuff without much evidence or proof.

Also, what does this even mean? My argument was that, despite getting his powers and abilities, Fat Buu was weakened with the fusion. So this is exactly what I'm saying, and it doesn't remotely begin to support your argument, which was 'When buu absorbs dudes, he gets their powers, abilities and knowledge/traits. Absorption is not a multiplier he simply adds them to his own. It is logical that the ability is addition based and nothing to suggest otherwise.'

He absorbs the androids integrating them into himself and becoming stronger. I've shown you that the amp itself is actually greater than a mere addition, so it's adding their power + more, in cells case however, it's much much more.

You haven't shown anything. All you showed was that S-PC is stronger, which is obvious. I showed that Perfect Cell is twice as strong. S-PC is an unidentified amp, and since the amp isn't additive, your unproven reasoning isn't enough.

I will repeat what I said before.

And I will repeat that your evidence is sub-par at best. Also, how would this even work, logically. Transformations are explicitly included in fusions, so if you fuse as a Super Saiyan, you'll be a Super Saiyan forever. Why would it not work the same for Potential Unleashed?

This is why he would be fusing in base, because he cannot be in both super saiyan and PU at the same time.

But he straight up wasn't doing that.

That possibility is called head canon.

So is your argument. The thing is, though, fusions have been shown performing transformations certain characters don't, such as Kefla transforming into Kale's forms.

It doesn't need to be an astronomical boost, it is enough to put vegito over gokhan. This is reaffirmed in a guide statement.

According only to your sub-par reasoning.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Transformations are explicitly included in fusions, so if you fuse as a Super Saiyan, you'll be a Super Saiyan forever. Why would it not work the same for Potential Unleashed?

Because PU was only retconned as a form in Super, in the Anime specifically, not in the manga, meaning it's not even in Toriyama's script, while we do backscale stuff, we have to see things as they were written at the time. PU was just Base Gohan...

 

[ByAsura]

If PU was just base Gohan, why wouldn't that mean a Goku / Gohan fusion could go Super Saiyan?

Also, is either your or Fluffy's logic mentioned in the guide itself?

If you want to go by other guides in the past, it's stated that Gohan has the potential to go Super Saiyan in this form if he trains enough.