Dragon Ball Z Manga Power Scaling

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Piccolo didn't even know about that until he figured out who Shin was.

His statement still more than imply he can sense Shin's power

 

[ByAsura]

Or he recognises how powerful he is from his status.

I think this is more likely given the context, but it's hard to get the exact intent.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

I'm uneasy about the timeframe method; for all we know, it could take Kid Buu Quadrillions or Sextillions of years to finally succeed in nuking every planet and star in the universe one by one over time. As opposed to 1000s, having the power to destroy the most durable star in the universe is the absolute bench mark for his AP, but we do not know how much stronger or better range that would actually be or how fast he can actually pull it off. It all still sounds far to hypothetical to properly calculate.

I see. Perhaps we just just stick to living planets?

Even if calc is accepted, the speed result from a thousand years (High-end) is too low because beerus will hakai Buu before he can destroy even 1/10 of the living universe let alone run everywhere of the entire universe and destroy all its planets and stars and then go to Kaioshin realm and kill all kaioshins. And even without that, buu can't even get to the kaioshin realm right away because he can't sense God ki (goku just needs to hide his ki or tele somewhere) to get there immediately after destruction o universe, so there must be an indeterminate amount of time he's looking for it, causing Buutenks' travel speed (yeah that's buu in the statement context, this feat only scales to him anyone stronger/faster than him because kid buu can't before showing teleport) is much higher than the high-end of calc, not to mention the size of universe 7 which is much larger than observable universe + travel speed is always a lot slower than DB's combat/react speed consistently throughout the series. So no matter if calc is accepted or not, always remember it's a terrible low end

I would made high-end for this

Beerus isn't a concept yet.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Or he recognises how powerful he is from his status.

I think this is more likely given the context, but it's hard to get the exact intent.

What? This is just a baseless assumption, if a character capable of power reading states someone else's strength, then the character used power reading to do so.

Piccolo gives no further context of on why he thinks that, so saying it's status is a completely unsupported interpretation than just using a character established abilities.

 

[ByAsura]

How is this baseless?

Piccolo before that point said nothing about Shin the whole time except that he's a complete unknown and that he vaguely recognises him. He says nothing about how massive Shin's power is until right after he finally recognises him from Kami's memories.

Vegeta even notes they don't know Shin's capabilities, and yet we're supposed to assume Piccolo sensed something they never talked about?

Piccolo, after remembering everything, even recognises that he stands above all the Kais. This is inspite of the fact that the Nameless Namekian was born in age 242 (a few hundred years ago), and the other Kais died millions of years ago.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Vegeta even notes they don't know Shin's capabilities, and yet we're supposed to assume Piccolo sensed something they never talked about?

Isn't... Isn't the scan you just sent Piccolo sensing him?

Vegeta and the others couldn't tell his capabilities because he wasn't showing his power yet.

 

[ByAsura]

No, he's slowly recognising who he is, and confronts him about it (albeit somewhat incorrectly, since he doesn't know all the Kais are dead). Piccolo brings up their strange nature prior and is on edge the whole time.

You do realise how contradictory that is, right? You're claiming that he's not showing his power, and you're also saying that in this same panel Piccolo is sensing his power.

Even Goku questions him about the gap after Piccolo leaves. So it's not like he's only suppressing his power above Piccolo's level.

 

[ByAsura]

On this note, Shin's scaling doesn't make any sense.

The quote says 'A juzgar por las precauciones que se toma con Dabra, de nivel similar al de Cell, se puede deducir que tiene la misma fuerza que Goku durante el Cell Game.'

I'm don't understand Spanish, but this apparently says something along the lines of 'Judging by the precautions taken with Dabra, who is of a similar level to Cell, it can be deduced that he has the same strength as Goku during the Cell Game.'

That doesn't make sense. It's effectively saying that because Shin is inferior to Dabura, who's on par with Cell, Shin can be equated to Goku.

It's not really that big a deal anyway. Piccolo here is at least as strong as his Post-HTC self, who was comparable to the Androids and far superior to Cell. So it only halves the scaling.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

On this note, Shin's scaling doesn't make any sense.

The quote says 'A juzgar por las precauciones que se toma con Dabra, de nivel similar al de Cell, se puede deducir que tiene la misma fuerza que Goku durante el Cell Game.'

I'm don't understand Spanish, but this apparently says something along the lines of 'Judging by the precautions taken with Dabra, who is of a similar level to Cell, it can be deduced that he has the same strength as Goku during the Cell Game.'

That doesn't make sense. It's effectively saying that because Shin is inferior to Dabura, who's on par with Cell, Shin can be equated to Goku.

I actually agree with this. Shin being inferior to Dabura doesn't mean at all that he's at Goku's level during the Cell games

The only scaling we can actually give him is being way above 100% Frieza, as all Supreme Kais can one shot him

 

[ByAsura]

He's still far superior to Piccolo, who's more powerful than the Androids.

With the scaling we have now/will have when I finish, it only halves the ratings of him/anyone who scales to him.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

He's still far superior to Piccolo, who's more powerful than the Androids.

With the scaling we have now/will have when I finish, it only halves the ratings of him/anyone who scales to him.

That still doesn't mean he's Goku's level. Goku was miles ahead of everyone else sans Gohan during the Cell Games, and matched Cell at a significant portion of his power, so much so that even Cell admit that Goku is good, even if he's not as strong as him

 

[ByAsura]

I'm not saying he's on par with Goku, I'm saying his current level will be halved via new scaling.

 

[Vizer04]

On this note, Shin's scaling doesn't make any sense.

The quote says 'A juzgar por las precauciones que se toma con Dabra, de nivel similar al de Cell, se puede deducir que tiene la misma fuerza que Goku durante el Cell Game.'

I'm don't understand Spanish, but this apparently says something along the lines of 'Judging by the precautions taken with Dabra, who is of a similar level to Cell, it can be deduced that he has the same strength as Goku during the Cell Game.'

That doesn't make sense. It's effectively saying that because Shin is inferior to Dabura, who's on par with Cell, Shin can be equated to Goku.

The guide is still implying that he's comparable to SSJ Goku and that's enough proof to upscale Shin to Goku. It doesn't contradict anything.

 

[ByAsura]

It doesn't matter what it implies, it implies it with nonsense logic.

It not contradicting anything also doesn't matter. It's just not reliable by the logic it gives. Should we accept an official source when the logic it's founded on is 1 x 1 = 10?

On another note, Super Saiyan 2 Gohan is more powerful than Buu Saga Super Saiyan Goku. So would he also be faster?

 

[Vizer04]

It isn't 0 logic, it's a direct comparison of powers. It implies that the difference between Shin and Dabra is the same difference between Goku and Cell.

 

[Vizer04]

I think it's clear that i completely disagree with this downgrade.

 

[ByAsura]

It isn't 0 logic, it's a direct comparison of powers. It implies that the difference between Shin and Dabra is the same difference between Goku and Cell.

It states that the fact that Shin needs precautions implies he's similar in power. It doesn't even establish the gap being the same first.

 

[Vizer04]

On another note, Super Saiyan 2 Gohan is more powerful than Buu Saga Super Saiyan Goku. So would he also be faster?

We already scale SS2 Gohan to Buu Saga SSJ Goku

 

[ByAsura]

I don't have access to the old blog. We've supplanted it with this.

 

[Vizer04]

This blog?

 

[ByAsura]

Thanks.

 

[Vizer04]

All of that is anime only, Gohan got stomped by Buutenks in the manga.

He managed to escape Buu's Galactic Donut though:

 

[Antvasima]

@DarkDragonMedeus @ByAsura @AKM sama

What should we do here exactly?

 

[ByAsura]

I’m just about finished with the new blog.

I’ll post it tomorrow.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Thank you for helping out.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I don't really see the issue with comparing Shin to SSJ Mastered Goku during the Cell games, he'd still be well below Dabura regardless. And he is considered well above Piccolo despite SSJ Gohan, who is as strong as he was during Cell saga if we exclude the SSJ2 stuff, not considering him impressive to Goku or Vegeta as they both grew a lot to the point where Teen Gohan is well below them now. So I do not mind using the secondary canon source statement. But at bare minimum, he should still upscale from Super Namekian Piccolo during the Cell games and in turn have base form Saiyans rated above him.

 

[Antvasima]

I have unfortunately lost track of what is being discussed in this thread at this point, so it would be good if all staff members here can try to reach an agreement on your own.

 

[ByAsura]

I don't really see the issue with comparing Shin to SSJ Mastered Goku during the Cell games, he'd still be well below Dabura regardless. And he is considered well above Piccolo despite SSJ Gohan, who is as strong as he was during Cell saga if we exclude the SSJ2 stuff, not considering him impressive to Goku or Vegeta as they both grew a lot to the point where Teen Gohan is well below them now. So I do not mind using the secondary canon source statement. But at bare minimum, he should still upscale from Super Namekian Piccolo during the Cell games and in turn have base form Saiyans rated above him.

I don’t mind the actual scaling, it’s just that the logic this guide employs is incredibly stupid. You could make the exact same argument for anything.

It’d be far different if it said something like ‘Shin is on par with Goku during the Cell Games’, but that’s not the case. It’s just giving very bad justification to make a claim.

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

It’d be far different if it said something like ‘Shin is on par with Goku during the Cell Games’, but that’s not the case. It’s just giving very bad justification to make a claim.

I think that was their intention but they just made it sound stupid.

 

[ByAsura]

I get that was their intention, but that doesn’t change what they said.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

It could be a roughly bad translation; sentences often get worded awkwardly during translations as people often translate words but fail to adapt from one sentence speaking structure to the other.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Goku in the Cell Games was actually relative to Perfect Cell at a significant portion of his power. Something that Shin can't even hope to compare to Dabura

Moreover, SSJ Gohan is still far stronger than Yakon and Pui-Pui, as both are far weaker than even a held back Dabura, who Gohan could fight pretty well with, but Shin was even scared of Pui-Pui

So: Held Back Dabura ~ SSJ Gohan = SSJ Teen Gohan >>> Yakon >>> Pui-Pui > Shin

SSJ Teen Gohan is stronger than Goku, but certainly not to that much of a massive extent

 

[ByAsura]

I’ve checked with the wiki and a few other pages/out of wiki sources that understand Spanish after I uploaded the argument, and they all say the same thing. So I strongly doubt it’s a mistranslation.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

On this note, Shin's scaling doesn't make any sense.

The quote says 'A juzgar por las precauciones que se toma con Dabra, de nivel similar al de Cell, se puede deducir que tiene la misma fuerza que Goku durante el Cell Game.'

I'm don't understand Spanish, but this apparently says something along the lines of 'Judging by the precautions taken with Dabra, who is of a similar level to Cell, it can be deduced that he has the same strength as Goku during the Cell Game.'

That doesn't make sense. It's effectively saying that because Shin is inferior to Dabura, who's on par with Cell, Shin can be equated to Goku.

It's not really that big a deal anyway. Piccolo here is at least as strong as his Post-HTC self, who was comparable to the Androids and far superior to Cell. So it only halves the scaling.

Also:
The wording of "deducir" implies they themselves aren't sure. They are literally saying: "it could be like this, because of this". Not that it actually is.

 

[AKM sama]

On the Buu speed blog. I completely disagree with the assumption that Buu would destroy each and every planet of the universe. That is an insanely hefty assumption we don't make for anything that comes out of only one statement like "nobody in the universe is safe" which could just as well be an exaggeration. For something like that, it would definitely require more proof. Like, I am not sure why people are suddenly bringing it up again after all these years, seems like the cycle just keeps repeating and same things are doomed to be argued back and forth even after decades.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

On the Buu speed blog. I completely disagree with the assumption that Buu would destroy each and every planet of the universe. That is an insanely hefty assumption we don't make for anything that comes out of only one statement like "nobody in the universe is safe" which could just as well be an exaggeration. For something like that, it would definitely require more proof. Like, I am not sure why people are suddenly bringing it up again after all these years, seems like the cycle just keeps repeating and same things are doomed to be argued back and forth even after decades.

Again, low ball it to just the living planets. Problem solved.

Because while giving insanely high feats from that statement is unreliable, completely ignoring the implications of the statement itself is also absurd in its nature.

 

[AKM sama]

Again, low ball it to just the living planets. Problem solved.

That would require a lot of assumptions. Where are all these living planets? Nothing states they are spread evenly throughout the universe. Most planets we know about are planets in the rule of Freeza, so they probably are concentrated in a region.
Plus, the statement could be an exaggeration to give a sense that Buu is a threat to everybody because nobody is there to stop him. Not that he will definitely destroy all planets with life. We can acknowledge the statement without interpreting it at the highest level possible.
And in how many years? He is a being who cannot die, he could play along for as long as he wants. The people talking about him are also beings with insanely long lifespan.

I think it is much better and much more favorable to argue for "buu destroyed several hundreds planets in a few years" because that is much much more solid and actually refers to a "feat" that happened in the past. But like I said, a staff thread should be created for that.

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

I agree, I believe Buu only targets living worlds and not just the entire universe. The reason for this is that it's consistent with the statements and it's implied so. He'd already been targetting planets with life strictly in his 100s of planets feat. That's because he's able to sense where these planets are. But he can't sense lifeless planets so he's forced to actually target entire solar systems which means he will target the luminous stars and destroy them. The issue is that Buu doesn't do this and shin only stated that he destroys planets and not entire solar systems or stars.
Of course we can still low ball this feat to strictly habitable planets and since they are scattered all across the universe like I showed earlier, it would still give MFTL+ results.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

On the Buu speed blog. I completely disagree with the assumption that Buu would destroy each and every planet of the universe. That is an insanely hefty assumption we don't make for anything that comes out of only one statement like "nobody in the universe is safe" which could just as well be an exaggeration. For something like that, it would definitely require more proof.

If so, then how else Buu would be a threat to the universe? I'm fine with editing the calc with Buu only destroying planets with life on them, but otherwise, there is no way a MFTL 4-B would be any sort of threat to the galaxy, let alone the entire universe. If you disagree and think they can, then I'd like to see your reasonings as to why.

Even I'd lowball the result to one in a billion planets in the universe have life on them, the results would still be solidly into MFTL+. And even that is lowball seeing that practically every planet we see in DB have some sort of alien life on them (the Frieza Force is filled with such creatures)

Like, I am not sure why people are suddenly bringing it up again after all these years, seems like the cycle just keeps repeating and same things are doomed to be argued back and forth even after decades.

How does that have any connection to what you said before? That has nothing to do with the validity of either side's statement

 

[AKM sama]

If so, then how else Buu would be a threat to the universe

Being a threat to the universe is vague. Anybody capable of destroying planets and solar systems is a threat to the universe if they can live long enough and nobody is able to stop them. I would consider an angry man with a small hammer a threat to my car even if all he can do is put a dent at one or two places or break a glass or something. You don't need to be destroying anything and everything to be considered a threat. Just being a destructive maniac with enough power who can't be stopped by anybody is enough to be considered one.