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Dragon Ball Z Manga Power Scaling

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Isn't this too subjective? "Well, after this point, it's simply too much higher than the highest feat"

Which scaling x feat discrepancy is too large for us to consider?

Would 10x not be considered a large discrepancy?
Would 100x not be considered a large discrepancy?
Why would we stop at "well, 450 times faster than the fastest feat is fair game, but beyond that is too absurd"? Why isn't a 450 times discrepancy considered too much?

I am sorry, but this seems very arbitrary. If we are going by that mindset, the cap should be either immensely lower (at most FTL), or non existent, imo.
 
Yes, it is subjective but that is what we agreed on. The only other alternative would be to rate them all as "rel+, likely far higher" or stop at "at least FTL+" like we used to earlier, which we would have done if it were any other verse. But since it is Dragon Ball, we are allowing some leeway. I think what we are allowing here is also pretty much a massive highball, but it is what it is. I don't want another long winded discussion on this topic though, which is why I am proposing a discussion rule about it.
 
AKM sama said:
The only other alternative would be to rate them all as "rel+, likely far higher" or stop at "at least FTL+" like we used to earlier, which we would have done if it were any other verse.
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The former would be much better going by those standards.

Well, I already voiced my disagreement towards how large the cap is, so I guess that's that. Agreements or Disagreements don't have much power, since bias might be a thing.
 
Well, now that Kaioken x20 and Kaioken x10 exists, it's more like we stop as Massively FTL with no "+" signs with corrected math. But SSJ only is a 20x multiplier for speed for Frieza saga and not a multiplier afterwards. But using it as a 50x for AP is still consistent, but we don't use it post Cell saga and just say Buu saga is unquantifiable higher.
 
DarkDragonMedeus said:
Well, now that Kaioken x20 and Kaioken x10 exists, it's more like we stop as Massively FTL with no "+" signs with corrected math. But SSJ only is a 20x multiplier for speed for Frieza saga and not a multiplier afterwards. But using it as a 50x for AP is still consistent, but we don't use it post Cell saga and just say Buu saga is unquantifiable higher.
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Wait, has SSJ's speed multiplier been downgraded here?
 
No, that thread was never concluded in agreement of the OP, so SSJ being a 50x for all stats still stays true.
 
I know, but it sounds like that's still what AKM wants to do here, because Goku becomes possibly "Massively FTL+" once he reaches the SSJ part against 100% Frieza based on the accepted multipliers thus far. 3000000 PL Goku is objectively stronger/faster than 3rd form Frieza who is objectively faster than Kaioken x4 Ginyu saga Goku and likely faster than 10x Kaioken as well. And that's not counting his ability to Kaioken all the way to x20 and so on. But stopping at "FTL+" comes from no where other than cherry picking some multipliers but not others.
 
But again, SSJ can't be x20, cuz it is hilariously wrong, it still superior KKx20 thus even if speed doesn't x50 increases, it still superior to x20 speed increases. Unless we also nuke x20 KK speed increases
 
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ByAsura said:
I don't like the prospect of picking some multipliers but not others either.
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Yes. "We'll use the multipliers up until "that" point, then, the speed doesn't increase anymore"

And if SSJ is still a 50x speed multiplier, what'd happen in a VsMatch?

Base Goku is likely 21.5c, and SSJ would be likely 1088c, but it's not registered as a "likely MFTL+" on the profile. But the multiplier is still accepted... Literally, what would happen?
 
One more thing, though. Sorry for the multiple posts, I just thought about it:

We scale character speed to the blast and explosions generated from their attacks, correct? We literally do that with Super Saiyan God Goku, and Beerus. We consider explosions of any size in Dragon Ball to be rather fast, taking up to 10 seconds to engulf and destroy the intended object, right?

Can't we do that to Cell's Solar System destruction? If we consider the explosion would engulf the entire solar system rather quickly, wouldn't that scale to Cell's speed?
 
GodlyCharmander said:
One more thing, though. Sorry for the multiple posts, I just thought about it:

We scale character speed to the blast and explosions generated from their attacks, correct? We literally do that with Super Saiyan God Goku, and Beerus. We consider explosions of any size in Dragon Ball to be rather fast, taking up to 10 seconds to engulf and destroy the intended object, right?

Can't we do that to Cell's Solar System destruction? If we consider the explosion would engulf the entire solar system rather quickly, wouldn't that scale to Cell's speed?
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true, but we didn't see cell do it
 
Vietthai96 said:
Why not using it again, that is one hell of a bad decision
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I think AKM said before that we're still using it.
GodlyCharmander said:
We scale character speed to the blast and explosions generated from their attacks, correct? We literally do that with Super Saiyan God Goku, and Beerus. We consider explosions of any size in Dragon Ball to be rather fast, taking up to 10 seconds to engulf and destroy the intended object, right?

Can't we do that to Cell's Solar System destruction? If we consider the explosion would engulf the entire solar system rather quickly, wouldn't that scale to Cell's speed?
Click to expand...
We already tried this before. The problem is that even Frieza would get to from Pluto to the Sun in 15 seconds.

Also, I said this before, but we should include Pluto in maybe a higher end of the Cell calculation. It was still, albeit controversially, a planet in 1993.
 
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ByAsura said:
I think AKM said before that we're still using it.

We already tried this before. The problem is that even Frieza would get to from Pluto to the Sun in 15 seconds.

Also, I said this before, but we should include Pluto in maybe a higher end of the Cell calculation. It was still, albeit controversially, a planet in 1993.
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Pluto is a part of the solar system regardless if it's a planet or not.

Plus, I made the calculations... It's 50c, not worth calculating.
 
Could just do the most lowball calc possible for Cell's solar system engulfing blast if used and work from there
 
@DarkDragonMedeus Hey can you give me your opinion on kid buu's feat?

Pokemon man, I don't think your calc works.
Edit: Pokemon man, you are using an insane distance in that calculation. It says 287 billion km. That is tens of times farther away than the kuiper belt. If cells blast travelled that far then it would contradict his AP calculation which only reaches up to neptune. If cells AP calc used this distance then he'd be stupidly high into solar system level.
 
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GodlyCharmander said:
This was accepted, no?
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No. We don't have a timeframe for how long it would take for the blast explosion to reach and destroy sun. On a lower end if we assume 10 minutes or 5 minutes, it would still come out to be way lower than Cell's current speed. We could say that hypothetical speed feat is easily factored in Cell's current speed.
 
AKM sama said:
No. We don't have a timeframe for how long it would take for the blast explosion to reach and destroy sun.
Click to expand...
We actually do, in a game, Assalt said that if we used the game where the solar system is shown to be destroyed, it'd wield some insane results. It happened quite fast too, in mere seconds IIRC. Can't get the AP because the solar system is not exactly shown in full so it prevents us from getting the full explosion's size, but the whole "destroy-the-Sun-from-Earth" stuff is a basic reverse-inverse square law calc.
 
KLOL506 said:
We actually do, in a game, Assalt said that if we used the game where the solar system is shown to be destroyed, it'd wield some insane results. It happened quite fast too, in mere seconds IIRC. Can't get the AP because the solar system is not exactly shown in full so it prevents us from getting the full explosion's size, but the whole "destroy-the-Sun-from-Earth" stuff is a basic reverse-inverse square law calc.
Click to expand...
Can we simply assume a timeframe of 15 seconds, similar with SSjG Goku and Beerus's Universal explosion?
 
AKM sama said:
It's a game. It's not canon.
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Yeah, we know, but the whole reason kiloFOE Cell was accepted was due to this in Assalt's original thread:

"The game only gives visualization to what canon Cell has already been accepted to be capable of. Calcing the game itself would involve taking the speed of the blast and derive an even higher result. My calculation is exclusively the power required the destroy the solar system from Earth."

Problem is, the game doesn't give you a good enough shot to determine the blast's biggest size anyway. Since FTL KE is a no-no, the next best bet is to determine the explosion size and figure out weird reverse-inverse square law shenanigans. And again,you can't because the game is too low-poly, and thus you're dropped back right onto square one, calculating the energy needed to bust the Sun from Earth.
 
Well, my point is that we don't even use the game as any sort of significant evidence. We just take Cell's statement at face value, assume it is true and calculate the result of a hypothetical feat of blowing up the sun from Earth. The game doesn't factor in the discussion. It might as well have not existed and nothing would change.

If we used the game for calculation, it would have been rejected.
 
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AKM sama said:
Well, my point is that we don't even use the game as any sort of significant evidence. We just take Cell's statement at face value, assume it is true and calculate the result of a hypothetical feat of blowing up the sun from Earth. The game doesn't factor in the discussion. It might as well have not existed and nothing would change.
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Well, I did see people making a big deal out of using the game to support Cell destroying the Sun from Earth back in those days so that's why I asked.

AKM sama said:
If we used the game for calculation, it would have been rejected.
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Problem is, you can't determine AP from it anyway because the full explosion is never shown.

And... oh, NVM, with the timeframe in the game, the explosion reaches the Sun from Earth in roughly 6.8 seconds, only goes upto 71c.
 
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KLOL506 said:
Well, I did see people making a big deal out of using the game to support Cell destroying the Sun from Earth so that's why I asked.
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Yeah, it is a common misconception that I have also come across many times. Fan's and Assalt's blogs may use non-canon sources to support Cell's statement, but at the end of the day, our primary evidence is Cell's statement alone, since we have no reason to doubt it. It should be enough on its own even without other non-canon supporting evidences.
 
AKM sama said:
Yeah, it is a common misconception that I have also come across many times. Fan's and Assalt's blogs may use non-canon sources to support Cell's statement, but at the end of the day, our primary evidence is Cell's statement alone, since we have no reason to doubt it. It should be enough on its own even without other non-canon supporting evidences.
Click to expand...
I see. Thank you for the clarification.
 
FluffyCreatureZ said:
@DarkDragonMedeus Hey can you give me your opinion on kid buu's feat?
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So listen... let's do it right. I believe you have a case, since like I said earlier, it is a possibility. And I told you why it is not currently accepted. It comes down to whether we assume Bibidi was the one to take Buu from planet to planet (which is also a strong possibility), or Buu did that on his own. In such cases, we default to the lower assumption anyway, since the higher one needs more explicit evidence. Which is why the feat isn't used.

Frankly, even if I agree with you on my own, it wouldn't be enough since apparently this decision was made after much staff deliberation in the past. So a single staff member agreeing with it won't be enough and I feel bad that you are awaiting Medeus' response. The proper process to challenge a prior decision (especially when it involves a big verse and the topic is significant enough to get its own thread) would be to create a staff thread, and get majority agreement there.

Either you or I can create one, let's post all the arguments for the feat to be used as Buu's speed feat and all the arguments for why it is not considered as such currently in the OP, and let majority staff members decide what to do. That works?
 
AKM sama said:
So listen... let's do it right. I believe you have a case, since like I said earlier, it is a possibility. And I told you why it is not currently accepted. It comes down to whether we assume Bibidi was the one to take Buu from planet to planet (which is also a strong possibility), or Buu did that on his own. In such cases, we default to the lower assumption anyway, since the higher one needs more explicit evidence. Which is why the feat isn't used.

Frankly, even if I agree with you on my own, it wouldn't be enough since apparently this decision was made after much staff deliberation in the past. So a single staff member agreeing with it won't be enough and I feel bad that you are awaiting Medeus' response. The proper process to challenge a prior decision (especially when it involves a big verse and the topic is significant enough to get its own thread) would be to create a staff thread, and get majority agreement there.

Either you or I can create one, let's post all the arguments for the feat to be used as Buu's speed feat and all the arguments for why it is not considered as such currently in the OP, and let majority staff members decide what to do. That works?
Click to expand...
Okay. Alright I'm fine with. I will post all the arguments for and against it in the OP later. But first, I need that calculation evaluated.
@KLOL506 klol man, can you kindly evaluate it?
 
Great. Before posting the thread, you can post it in my PM. I will cross-check the arguments and tell you if you can add/remove anything.
 
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