Dragon Ball Z Manga Power Scaling

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Glowing rat man, I'm not claiming kaioken isn't linear, I'm saying it is linear when scaling AP but AP is not linear to power level except when it is (8000-32000 and 90000-180000). In this case, we cannot prove it is, and because of that we cannot apply the linear to AP kaioken to the non linear pl 530000 because it corresponds to an AP way greater than 6 times.

You need to come with proof with why shouldn't it work after times two when in the exact same fight we see it being explicitly linear. The fact that the AP increases due to Frieza's feat isn't a proof for it suddenly stops being linear, especially since later we see Kaioken times 10 and times 20 being linear, yet for the sake of whatever reason it magically stops for no reason? Yeah I'm not buying that

If we really want to keep both consistent, then we'd have to downscale Goku and Ginyu from Frieza's feat, much like how Goku and Nappa downscale from Vegeta's feat a saga prior to this one

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

Oh, they're trying to do it. I thought you were.

No, we should probably avoid downscaling to get ratings. It sets some strange precedents.

Oh lol. Anyway what's your opinion on this? It's 100x more important.

You think we can use the high end as a low ball of casual buu, and scale him to what he normally scales to with multipliers? (20000-50000~c). This would support the huge MFTL+ multiplier ratings for DBZ.

 

[ByAsura]

I think downscaling direct showings is fine (like Goku being somewhere between half and a third of Vegeta's strength level), but we should avoid downscaling power levels.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

I think downscaling direct showings is fine (like Goku being somewhere between half and a third of Vegeta's strength level), but we should avoid downscaling power levels.

That is however the only way to make both the AP make sense and keeping Kaioken consistent. The fact that Goku just instantly blitzes and stomped both Jeice and Burter, as well as one shotting Recoome, supports this

 

[ByAsura]

It's pretty much the exact same thing as upscaling based on power levels, just with a different coat of paint.

I don't see how that supports Namek Goku surpassing Frieza with a 6x Kaioken.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

It's pretty much the exact same thing as upscaling based on power levels, just with a different coat of paint.

I don't see how that supports Namek Goku surpassing Frieza with a 6x Kaioken.

Because kaioken is proven to be linear in both AP and power level and so far no one presented why this shouldn't be a case that it'll magically stop being consistent in that convenitent moment and later be linear in Goku and Frieza's fight with higher multipliers such as Kaioken times 10 as times 20

Besides, as I shown earlier, Goku thought he could stand up to second form Frieza if he's healed. With a PL of 900,000 with a KK10, that is going to make him fairly close to Frieza's PL of > 1 million

 

[ByAsura]

Yeah, but we don't scale it based on power levels, we scale it based on the actual amplification.

Otherwise you could make any gap linear just because it surpasses Kaioken Goku at a certain level.

Farmer with a shotgun would be 1/3600th Planet level with these kinds of ratings.

It's just not reliable.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Yeah, but we don't scale it based on power levels, we scale it based on the actual amplification.

Kaioken amplifies both AP and power level linearly. We went over this a thousand times before

 

[ByAsura]

And it doesn't change anything that I said. But whatever. You and Fluffy can continue this yourselves.

 

[Vizer04]

PLs were linear sometimes, especially during the Frieza Saga.

Goku wasn't expecting to get such a gigantic zenkai:

 

[ByAsura]

I know it's referring to them in particular, but that's not the point I'm making.

 

[Vizer04]

No, we should probably avoid downscaling power levels to get ratings. It sets some strange precedents.

This wouldn't affect anyone but Goku and Ginyu. It makes perfect sense for them to be above the other 5-B characters as Goku curbstomped the Ginyu Tokusentai with utter ease:

 

[AKM sama]

Do any justifications in the wiki profile pages need to be updated based on what ByAsura said?

Ask Fluffy since the changes were already made. I don't know if they used the Android 17 justification on the pages or not.

But besides that, the speed ratings on several profiles need to be changed.

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

Ask Fluffy since the changes were already made. I don't know if they used the Android 17 justification on the pages or not.

But besides that, the speed ratings on several profiles need to be changed.

No. Nothing needs to be changed in the profiles as asura's scaling basically made it so the scaling doesn't actually change.
Anyway I want your opinion on kid buu's feat, asura went from thinking it's not even a feat to thinking it's a big lowball. I'm pretty sure that is the only thing left to discuss.

 

[Vizer04]

I'm pretty sure that is the only thing left to discuss.

No, we still have to discuss the Ginyu scaling.

 

[AKM sama]

Anyway I want your opinion on kid buu's feat, asura went from thinking it's not even a feat to thinking it's a big lowball. I'm pretty sure that is the only thing left to discuss.

I am sorry, but my opinion hasn't changed. This thing has been discussed hundreds of times since I have joined vs debating and there is nothing new in it now for me to change my view. Like, this wasn't even accepted before I was here, it wasn't accepted after I came here, so I don't see why it would get accepted now when nothing has changed. I've already given the reasons earlier for why this feat isn't usable.

 

[Antvasima]

Ask Fluffy since the changes were already made. I don't know if they used the Android 17 justification on the pages or not.

But besides that, the speed ratings on several profiles need to be changed.

Okay. What should they be changed to, and why?

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

I am sorry, but my opinion hasn't changed. This thing has been discussed hundreds of times since I have joined vs debating and there is nothing new in it now for me to change my view. I've already given the reasons earlier for why this feat isn't usable.

If your reason for disagreeing is the reasons you gave when I first shared it then I debunked it 4 pages ago.
Post in thread 'Dragon Ball Z Manga Power Scaling' https://vsbattles.com/threads/dragon-ball-z-manga-power-scaling.126509/post-4428311
I have went over every single argument to why kid buu's feat isn't usable with asura man already and it is actually usable.

Okay. What should they be changed to, and why?

Back to 1080 c, likely mftl+, because akm doesn't want to use multipliers to buff the speed.

 

[AKM sama]

MFTL+ would be removed. I will change this blog to only cap at MFTL as discussed earlier.

Also, ByAsura would probably be creating a clean AP-only scaling blog to better represent the values.

 

[AKM sama]

I debunked it

I don't think it counts as a debunk. All you did was post scans saying Bibidi sealed up Buu because Buu's power put strain on him. And then he brought him to Earth, which was his next target.

This doesn't prove that Bibidi did not take Buu from planet to planet in his own spaceship. Bibidi could have sealed Buu after every target planet to carry him to the next because as Shin said, his power put strain on him and any logical being won't let Buu roam freely in such a case indefinitely. They'd have to keep regularly sealing them. Or they could have simply travelled by the spaceship even if Buu was not sealed. Either could be the case given the scenario.

Shin not referring to Bibidi and Buu together is not a factor and it doesn't really mean anything. Buu is the one who destroyed the planets and he is the one being talked about since he is the main threat, not Bibidi.

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

I don't think it counts as a debunk. All you did was post scans saying Bibidi sealed up Buu because Buu's power put strain on him. And then he brought him to Earth, which was his next target.

This doesn't prove that Bibidi did not take Buu from planet to planet in his own spaceship. Bibidi could have sealed Buu after every target planet to carry him to the next because as Shin said, his power put strain on him and any logical being won't let Buu roam freely in such a case indefinitely. They'd have to keep regularly sealing them. Or they could have simply travelled by the spaceship even if Buu was not sealed. Either could be the case given the scenario.

Shin not referring to Bibidi and Buu together is not a factor and it doesn't really mean anything. Buu is the one who destroyed the planets and he is the one being talked about since he is the main threat, not Bibidi.

That is false. You are missing the context of the scene. Bibidi only sealed buu AFTER he already performed the feat, and that's the thing, bibidi didn't let buu roam freely, buu was just too hard for him to control, so he performed the feat and only after did he get sealed. Shin said that buu performed the feat and then after said that buu was too hard to control and bibidi sealed him so he could rest, why would bibidi seal buu so he could rest if he was already sealing him and manually taking him to planets?
And only after buu was sealed was bibidi stated to have taken him manuallyto other planets meaning that he wasn't doing so before.
That is also wrong, if buu didn't perform the feat himself and needed help from bibidi, then he would not be a relevant threat to the universe by himself, which he is stated to be many times with no instant transmission or bibidi. And if bibidi did help him, he would actually get credit for the same reason as before since buu wouldn't be a threat without him.
All these points were already brought up by asura.

 

[Vizer04]

Since I'm redoing the blog, I had an idea that I'd like to get input on here. I'll drop it if anyone disagrees too much because I don't want to significantly derail the thread.

Vegeta in the Saiyan Saga wasn't very damaged by the Kaioken x4 Kamehameha, but he was somehow heavily damaged by a single punch from Kaioken x3. So I think it's reasonable to assume anyone does extreme damage to this Vegeta is around a similar level to the Kaioken x4.

Vegeta two-shot Cui, whose powers were equal to his own. But his power level was 24,000, causing some contradictions given that Kaioken x3 alone is higher than this, while a 4x would be between 32 and 36,000.

Monster Zarbon annihilated a much stronger Vegeta, causing his forehead to bleed simply by applying pressure to the sides of his head, making him perspire with a punch, and knocking him out with a tackle after he's lost some strength. Zarbon was strong enough that Vegeta with a power level close to 30,000 (20,000 was the original version) had to take him completely off guard and sap much of his strength with a preemptive strike.

Recoome left 30,000 PL Vegeta barely able to stand with just 4 attacks, one of which clearly did the bulk of the damage. There's some level of doubt for the previous ones, but Vegeta himself suggests nobody has outclassed him to this extent, so Recoome should be stronger than the Kaioken x4. Jeice and Burter are comparable.

So the Ginyu Force at the very least should be above Kaioken x4.

This was already accepted

 

[ByAsura]

I misread the numbers. My mistake.

I'll go to bed and do it tomorrow.

 

[Vizer04]

Vegeta said that he would need Goku's help to fight Frieza:

 

[AKM sama]

Shin said that buu performed the feat and then after said that buu was too hard to control and bibidi sealed him so he could rest, why would bibidi seal buu so he could rest if he was already sealing him and manually taking him to planets?
And only after buu was sealed was bibidi stated to have taken him manuallyto other planets meaning that he wasn't doing so before.

That "feat" was performed over a certain amount of time, and nothing is saying that Bibidi did not seal Buu and take him from planet to planet in that duration. Bibidi would seal Buu to rest because his powers put a strain on him. Didn't you see DBZ? In only a few hours after getting outside the egg, Buu killed Babidi. Which means that Buu was too hard to control even for a short amount of time. Which further suggests that Bibidi might have to seal Buu regularly over short durations, or risk his own life by either putting too much strain or Buu getting intelligent. And once again, nothing says that they did not use the spaceship.

then he would not be a relevant threat to the universe by himself, which he is stated to be many times with no instant transmission or bibidi.

He would still be. Since he can fly, can survive in vacuum and doesn't have any limit to his lifespan. Also, "threat to universe" statements are vague and do not mean anything on their own. Freeza and Cell were also called threats to the universe. Not that being a threat to Universe 7 is a big deal considering there were only around 28 planets with life (which means even if someone destroyed 2-3 planets with life it'd be enough to be called threat to the universe). Hell, Saiyan saga Vegeta is also a threat to the universe if he wants to be.

Even then, analyzing the statements one by one.

No one in the universe is safe now. Context here is that Buu has awakened. The statement itself doesn't say Buu will personally travel from planet to planet and kill everyone. It just says that the people are in danger. Why? Since Babidi is alive, and Buu has awakened, Babidi is free to carry out his plans and nobody can stop him with Buu being at his side because Buu is just that unbeatable. Kibito knows that the one in control of Buu is Babidi.

Buu is as strong as Kaioshin feared...everything in the universe will be killed. This statement is borrowed from Kibito so the context is same. Once again, the focus is on the strength of Buu and the fact that nobody can stop him. It doesn't say Buu will travel from planet to planet on his own. Just that with Babidi controlling Buu and nobody strong enough to stop him, they'd carry out their plans and nobody in the universe is safe.

This world is toast. Could just be referring to Earth. Or following along the same above context. Buu is the brawn, Babidi is the brain. With brawn on his side, Babidi can do whatever he wants to the world.

There is no statement that says "Buu will personally destroy yada yada yada". There are statements that say the universe is in danger. Why it is in danger is because Babidi managed to wake Buu up and they can do whatever the hell they want. The characters all knew that Babidi is Buu's master, so excluding him from their thought process just doesn't make any sense.

Joke statement. Makes it sound like the whole universe was going to be destroyed, which isn't the case. But either way, Buu is still a threat to the universe and that is not impossible with the speed or AP that he already has.

So the Ginyu Force at the very least should be above Kaioken x4.

Yes. Thanks for the effort on the blog.

 

[Vizer04]

Farmer with a shotgun would be 1/3600th Planet level with these kinds of ratings.

You can't compare that kind of downscaling from vastly different characters

While using a KKx2, Goku had a power level of 180,000 (and this was far from his full power)

At the same time, when Frieza was about to fight with Nail, he said that his power level was 530,000

I can understand that it's best to not downscale characters from different arcs, but during the Frieza Arc power levels were very detailed and useful in order to compare different characters.

 

[Antvasima]

AKM, would you be willing to write down your arguments in a single post here, so we can ask other staff members to evaluate them?

 

[ByAsura]

It's the same saga where Kaioken first appears and you could say the exact same things about the power levels in the Saiyan Saga, in which Raditz is a metric for the characters' growth.

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

That "feat" was performed over a certain amount of time, and nothing is saying that Bibidi did not seal Buu and take him from planet to planet in that duration. Bibidi would seal Buu to rest because his powers put a strain on him. Didn't you see DBZ? In only a few hours after getting outside the egg, Buu killed Babidi. Which means that Buu was too hard to control even for a short amount of time. Which further suggests that Bibidi might have to seal Buu regularly over short durations, or risk his own life by either putting too much strain or Buu getting intelligent. And once again, nothing says that they did not use the spaceship.


He would still be. Since he can fly, can survive in vacuum and doesn't have any limit to his lifespan. Also, "threat to universe" statements are vague and do not mean anything on their own. Freeza and Cell were also called threats to the universe. Not that being a threat to Universe 7 is a big deal considering there were only around 28 planets with life (which means even if someone destroyed 2-3 planets with life it'd be enough to be called threat to the universe). Hell, Saiyan saga Vegeta is also a threat to the universe if he wants to be.

Even then, analyzing the statements one by one.

No one in the universe is safe now. Context here is that Buu has awakened. The statement itself doesn't say Buu will personally travel from planet to planet and kill everyone. It just says that the people are in danger. Why? Since Babidi is alive, and Buu has awakened, Babidi is free to carry out his plans and nobody can stop him with Buu being at his side because Buu is just that unbeatable. Kibito knows that the one in control of Buu is Babidi.

Buu is as strong as Kaioshin feared...everything in the universe will be killed. This statement is borrowed from Kibito so the context is same. Once again, the focus is on the strength of Buu and the fact that nobody can stop him. It doesn't say Buu will travel from planet to planet on his own. Just that with Babidi controlling Buu and nobody strong enough to stop him, they'd carry out their plans and nobody in the universe is safe.

This world is toast. Could just be referring to Earth. Or following along the same above context. Buu is the brawn, Babidi is the brain. With brawn on his side, Babidi can do whatever he wants to the world.

There is no statement that says "Buu will personally destroy yada yada yada". There are statements that say the universe is in danger. Why it is in danger is because Babidi managed to wake Buu up and they can do whatever the hell they want. The characters all knew that Babidi is Buu's master, so excluding him from their thought process just doesn't make any sense.

Joke statement. Makes it sound like the whole universe was going to be destroyed, which isn't the case. But either way, Buu is still a threat to the universe and that is not impossible with the speed or AP that he already has.


Yes. Thanks for the effort on the blog.

Nothing is saying that he did do that and in fact it's challenged in the show because 1. Bibidi is never stated to have helped buu and actually stated to be unable to control him 2. Bibidi is only stated to have sealed buu and taken him manually after he performed the feat as shin only mentions bibidi finding buu straining on him after years passed which means bibidi was never controlling buu during that time which supports (buu is stated uncontrollable) what I'm saying and nukes yours. Nothing is saying he didn't use a space ship, but nothing is saying he did either, ultimately, it's head canon that is actively challenged by the show.
No he would not, they key word is "relevant" threat to the universe. He wouldn't be a real threat if it takes him until the heat death of the universe to end all life.
Freeza and vegeta being a threat is due to having spaceships and in freeza's case, an entire empire. Cell and buh don't have that and need to fly, that just massively supports the multiplier ratings.
while your counter to the statements make sense initially, I can prove that it's actually referring to buu being a threat without babidi.
1. Babidi could do exactly that without buu using just dabura and his other minions, he can go to planets one by one and let dabura wipe them all out with no one to challenge him, the universe being in danger suddenly becoming a real deal after buu is released implies that buu is a threat without babidi.
2. Now the first point is not enough on it's own, that'a why the "joke statement" is important. The context behined it is a joke but the statement isn't, it shows that both Goku and Gohan believe that the universe is in danger because of buu, mind you, this statement is made AFTER buu kills babidi.
3. Oh that isn't enough for you? Here's another statement.

Now the official translation isn't a universe buster statement lol, the real statement is "the alternative is the death of the universe, buu will make his way here eventually"
This means buu can fly to his destination as super buu and the statement is coming from a reliable source.
Also I found this treasure.

The official says "Don't worry he can't follow us here... besides, we can restore all the planets he blows up with the dragon balls"
This is directly before Goku learns that buu can teleport. This is such an undeniable statement that it basically straight up confirms his earlier feat. Kid buu can travel interstellar distances.

 

[AKM sama]

Bibidi is never stated to have helped buu and actually stated to be unable to control him

"Buu's power put a huge strain on Bibidi. He sealed Buu up so he could rest". That statement implies Bibidi was the one to control Buu, just as Babidi did until Buu killed him. The statement has a direct implication and is supported by the events in the manga. I have no idea how you are able to say such a thing.

Bibidi is only stated to have sealed buu and taken him manually after he performed the feat

Wrong interpretation. It doesn't say Bibidi only sealed Buu once in his lifetime. All Shin says is that Buu destroyed several planets over an unknown period of time. How? We don't know. But from the information we can gather, we can ascertain that it was either by travelling in the spaceship because they had that. Or Bibidi regularly sealing Buu to keep him under control so as to not strain himself and not get killed like Babidi.

Babidi could do exactly that without buu using just dabura and his other minions

When Kibito first said that statement, Dabura was already dead. And Buu beat up Gohan. That's when Kibito said nobody in the universe is safe because they see Buu as the ultimate and unbeatable display of brawn. So I don't know where you're going with this. That statement was said about Buu, but it doesn't really exclude Babidi because he is the ringmaster and he is the one who had Buu in control.

Now the official translation isn't a universe buster statement lol, the real statement is "the alternative is the death of the universe, buu will make his way here eventually"

You posted a scan that says "the universe will be destroyed" and then you said it doesn't actually say that without posting the source. I'd like to see the source before I respond to that. If we are taking the scan at face value, then we already dismiss it as Elder Kai exaggerating since Buu isn't a universe-buster.

The official says "Don't worry he can't follow us here... besides, we can restore all the planets he blows up with the dragon balls

I mean, he just blew up Earth and knowing him, Goku thought he'd blow up other planets of the solar system too since they are the ones nearby. What is wrong with that? And this scan directly contradicts the above one. Goku says Buu can't follow them there. While Elder Kai earlier said that Buu can come there too, which wouldn't be possible for any mortal without IT. So I wouldn't really put much stock into the earlier statement.

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

"Buu's power put a huge strain on Bibidi. He sealed Buu up so he could rest". That statement implies Bibidi was the one to control Buu, just as Babidi did until Buu killed him. The statement has a direct implication and is supported by the events in the manga. I have no idea how you are able to say such a thing.


Wrong interpretation. It doesn't say Bibidi only sealed Buu once in his lifetime. All Shin says is that Buu destroyed several planets over an unknown period of time. How? We don't know. But from the information we can gather, we can ascertain that it was either by travelling in the spaceship because they had that. Or Bibidi regularly sealing Buu to keep him under control so as to not strain himself and not get killed like Babidi.


When Kibito first said that statement, Dabura was already dead. And Buu beat up Gohan. That's when Kibito said nobody in the universe is safe because they see Buu as the ultimate and unbeatable display of brawn. So I don't know where you're going with this. That statement was said about Buu, but it doesn't really exclude Babidi because he is the ringmaster and he is the one who had Buu in control.


You posted a scan that says "the universe will be destroyed" and then you said it doesn't actually say that without posting the source. I'd like to see the source before I respond to that. If we are taking the scan at face value, then we already dismiss it as Elder Kai exaggerating since Buu isn't a universe-buster.


I mean, he just blew up Earth and knowing him, Goku thought he'd blow up other planets of the solar system too since they are the ones nearby. What is wrong with that? And this scan directly contradicts the above one. Goku says Buu can't follow them there. While Elder Kai earlier said that Buu can come there too, which wouldn't be possible for any mortal without IT. So I wouldn't really put much stock into the earlier statement.

Despite it being literally stated that bibidi could not control Buu at all, and even after he became fat and tamable, bibidi found him uncontrollable and was forced to seal him. So this is quite a literal direct statement proving that bibidi didn't have shit to do with kid buu and could barely control the fat Buu who he was forced to seal way after the feat was performed.
Wronger interpretation. I have explained why 15 times to you and to asura if you bother to read it why that is wrong. There is no method to which bibidi could have helped buu that I haven't already debunked like the sealing argument or that is head canon and is overwhelmed by the loads of evidence suggesting that Buu did the feat with his feet.
You completely missed the point. Before dabura died, and before buu was released, Babidi could have easily done the thing he wanted to do (terrorize the universe and destroy planets) with dabura only. Yet once kibito learned that Buu was released, he states that the universe is screwed, this suggest that even without babidi, Buu is a threat to the universe.
Sigh

Elder kai says the universe will die, insinuating that living things will die, not a universe buster statement. Also, Elder kai says Buu will reach the supreme kai realm eventually, this is important for your next point.

Goku is referring to planets with life on them as the ones that buu will destroy, not random lifeless planets. We know this is true because Buu targets planets with life on them specifically because of the numerous implications (such as this scan with dead lifeforms) and statements of Buu being a threat to the universe. Being a threat to the universe here means threating life on planets, now if we assume that buu attacks random lifeless planets then this will mean these statements are referring to buu being able to literally destroy the universe, so unless we really push galaxy- multi galaxy level Buu here then the safest interpretation and the one actually consistent in the story is that Buu is just a solar system buster who moves really fast and targets planets with life.
I also want to mention that the title of chapter 509 (the one this scan is from) is called "Match with the whole universe at stake", so yet another universe threatning statement, hmmmmmmm, strangely consistent if I do say so.
No it does not contradict it, Elder kai's statement includes "eventually", this means it'll take Buu a very long time, most likely after he cleared the universe or most of it, of course this is irrelevant in the scene where Goku supposedly contradicts this because they have more than enough time to make a plan before he ever comes since usually you need teleportation to get there which is why Goku says he can't "follow them there" as in replicate the teleportation.

 

[Vizer04]

@DarkDragonMedeus can we have your input please?

 

[AKM sama]

Despite it being literally stated that bibidi could not control Buu at all, and even after he became fat and tamable, bibidi found him uncontrollable and was forced to seal him. So this is quite a literal direct statement proving that bibidi didn't have shit to do with kid buu and could barely control the fat Buu who he was forced to seal way after the feat was performed.

There are two things to consider here.
1. The statement about destroying several planets was made about Buu in general. We don't know if Kaioshin was referring to Fat Buu or Buu's original form, but from a narrative perspective, Kid Buu wasn't even revealed at that time and the very first introduction about Kid Buu was given by Kibito-Shin later in the scan you posted. So, it would make a whole lot more sense that Shin was talking about Fat Buu when he mentioned that he destroyed several planets.
2. Bibidi not being able to control Buu would only mean that Kid Buu didn't listen much to Bibidi and did whatever he wanted to do. If he was completely uncontrollable, Bibidi would have been dead. But as he said, Fat Buu became gentler and more reasonable so it was easy for Bibidi to make him listen. Though still, even Fat Buu was hard to control as we saw in just a few hours Babidi ended up being dead.

None of that says Buu destroyed several planets flying from one star system to another by himself. Once again, this is just your assumption, which might be true according to your interpretation of events. I am not denying that a slight possibility exists. Although, that possibility is not enough to make the feat usable because there are other more reasonable possibilities which make more sense.

Wronger interpretation. I have explained why 15 times to you and to asura if you bother to read it why that is wrong. There is no method to which bibidi could have helped buu that I haven't already debunked like the sealing argument or that is head canon and is overwhelmed by the loads of evidence suggesting that Buu did the feat with his feet.
You completely missed the point. Before dabura died, and before buu was released, Babidi could have easily done the thing he wanted to do (terrorize the universe and destroy planets) with dabura only. Yet once kibito learned that Buu was released, he states that the universe is screwed, this suggest that even without babidi, Buu is a threat to the universe.

We will agree to disagree. You're not changing my mind, and I am not changing yours. My job is to make you aware of why we don't use that feat. And you are free to disagree. But we cannot change everything that was already discussed and decided previously because a new member comes in and disagrees with it. If we did that, we'd be constantly changing one thing or another. Most of the people involved in this decision have come and gone, and many people currently active don't even want to keep debating DB because of repeated discussions. So the only thing left for me to say is that you can accept that this particular feat was deemed to be unusable as a feat, even if you personally think otherwise.

Elder kai says the universe will die, insinuating that living things will die, not a universe buster statement. Also, Elder kai says Buu will reach the supreme kai realm eventually, this is important for your next point.

This translation says "death of the universe" and the other one said "the universe will be destroyed". It is pretty clear that the meaning behind both translation is that he is referring to the destruction of the universe, not destruction of all life in the universe. To which I'd say it's an exaggerated statement which we don't consider reliable. He also says that Buu will reach Kaioshin realm, which should be impossible since the only way it can be reached is via Goku's IT or Kaioshin's teleportation, not flight, also proving that it is unreliable. And Goku even contradicts it later saying that Buu won't be able to come to Kaioshin realm.

Goku is referring to planets with life on them as the ones that buu will destroy, not random lifeless planets.

In your latest translation, it says "we can restore the planets he blew up", talking about past tense. I'd say this isn't reliable translation because it does not make sense. The earlier translation says "we will undo the harm he will do". In any case, nothing suggests Goku was talking specifically about planets with life. Buu can destroy whatever he wants and Goku would still undo the harm in a single wish whether it is any planet with or without life is not relevant.

(such as this scan with dead lifeforms) and statements of Buu being a threat to the universe

Conflating two different statements is reaching. Both statements are true in their own separate contexts.

I also want to mention that the title of chapter 509 (the one this scan is from) is called "Match with the whole universe at stake"

We don't consider the title as anything noteworthy because they are purely for hype. And even so, Buu was a threat to the universe, nobody is denying that. He could be a threat even at his current AP and speed. He is MFTL, he only needs some days to go to the next solar system and destroy more planets. Even if Shin was talking about Buu flying on his own, his current speed more than factors it in. Even by your own calculation the low end is only FTL+, which is slower than what he is rated as.

I don't see a point in dying over whether we should treat this feat as "accurately usable" or not, because in the grand scheme of things it doesn't matter.

That is all from me on this topic. Frankly speaking, my job is not to convince you to change your viewpoints and make you agree with me. My job is to tell you why this feat has always been treated as too dicey to be usable in any accurate capacity. If you can't see that or you don't agree with it, that is fine. We will agree to disagree. But we cannot change something already been established by so many people over so many years because a new member joins once a month and tries to change the ratings. Notice how no other staff members who used to be present in earlier DB threads even show up anymore, except for Medeus and I. It just gets repetitive. You'll have to accept that what you think is legit was already deemed unusable and nothing new has come up since then. You can go ahead and have the last word but I won't be responding to this topic anymore.


@Antvasima We'll have to make a discussion rule about not trying to upgrade DBZ speed. We literally had an exhaustive discussion over it last year with SSJRyu and came to a compromise only to witness another upgrade thread few months later. We already decided to highball the speed enough already due to multipliers when the best feat is rel+ and seeing how this keeps coming up and there are not a lot of staff members willing to participate and I hear regular complains about multiplier abuse, I think it is time we ban this topic after this thread.

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

There are two things to consider here.
1. The statement about destroying several planets was made about Buu in general. We don't know if Kaioshin was referring to Fat Buu or Buu's original form, but from a narrative perspective, Kid Buu wasn't even revealed at that time and the very first introduction about Kid Buu was given by Kibito-Shin later in the scan you posted. So, it would make a whole lot more sense that Shin was talking about Fat Buu when he mentioned that he destroyed several planets.
2. Bibidi not being able to control Buu would only mean that Kid Buu didn't listen much to Bibidi and did whatever he wanted to do. If he was completely uncontrollable, Bibidi would have been dead. But as he said, Fat Buu became gentler and more reasonable so it was easy for Bibidi to make him listen. Though still, even Fat Buu was hard to control as we saw in just a few hours Babidi ended up being dead.

None of that says Buu destroyed several planets flying from one star system to another by himself. Once again, this is just your assumption, which might be true according to your interpretation of events. I am not denying that a slight possibility exists. Although, that possibility is not enough to make the feat usable because there are other more reasonable possibilities which make more sense.


We will agree to disagree. You're not changing my mind, and I am not changing yours. My job is to make you aware of why we don't use that feat. And you are free to disagree. But we cannot change everything that was already discussed and decided previously because a new member comes in and disagrees with it. If we did that, we'd be constantly changing one thing or another. Most of the people involved in this decision have come and gone, and many people currently active don't even want to keep debating DB because of repeated discussions. So the only thing left for me to say is that you can accept that this particular feat was deemed to be unusable as a feat, even if you personally think otherwise.



This translation says "death of the universe" and the other one said "the universe will be destroyed". It is pretty clear that the meaning behind both translation is that he is referring to the destruction of the universe, not destruction of all life in the universe. To which I'd say it's an exaggerated statement which we don't consider reliable. He also says that Buu will reach Kaioshin realm, which should be impossible since the only way it can be reached is via Goku's IT or Kaioshin's teleportation, not flight, also proving that it is unreliable. And Goku even contradicts it later saying that Buu won't be able to come to Kaioshin realm.


In your latest translation, it says "we can restore the planets he blew up", talking about past tense. I'd say this isn't reliable translation because it does not make sense. The earlier translation says "we will undo the harm he will do". In any case, nothing suggests Goku was talking specifically about planets with life. Buu can destroy whatever he wants and Goku would still undo the harm in a single wish whether it is any planet with or without life is not relevant.


Conflating two different statements is reaching. Both statements are true in their own separate contexts.


We don't consider the title as anything noteworthy because they are purely for hype. And even so, Buu was a threat to the universe, nobody is denying that. He could be a threat even at his current AP and speed. He is MFTL, he only needs some days to go to the next solar system and destroy more planets. Even if Shin was talking about Buu flying on his own, his current speed more than factors it in. Even by your own calculation the low end is only FTL+, which is slower than what he is rated as.

I don't see a point in dying over whether we should treat this feat as "accurately usable" or not, because in the grand scheme of things it doesn't matter.

That is all from me on this topic. Frankly speaking, my job is not to convince you to change your viewpoints and make you agree with me. My job is to tell you why this feat has always been treated as too dicey to be usable in any accurate capacity. If you can't see that or you don't agree with it, that is fine. We will agree to disagree. But we cannot change something already been established by so many people over so many years because a new member joins once a month and tries to change the ratings. Notice how no other staff members who used to be present in earlier DB threads even show up anymore, except for Medeus and I. It just gets repetitive. You'll have to accept that what you think is legit was already deemed unusable and nothing new has come up since then. You can go ahead and have the last word but I won't be responding to this topic anymore.


@Antvasima We'll have to make a discussion rule about not trying to upgrade DBZ speed. We literally had an exhaustive discussion over it last year with SSJRyu and came to a compromise only to witness another upgrade thread few months later. We already decided to highball the speed enough already due to multipliers when the best feat is rel+ and seeing how this keeps coming up and there are not a lot of staff members willing to participate and I hear regular complains about multiplier abuse, I think it is time we ban this topic after this thread.

That is false. "Buu had no fear or emotions, it was born to kill and destroy, in only a few years he destroyed several hundreds of planets". This statement exactly describes kid buu, this is not up for debate. Even more proof, "and the next one who was absorbed was the fat but gentle and mild mannered great kaioshin the majin buu that bibidi created was pure evil, he was a failure not even bibidi could handle, but when the great kaioshin was absorbed, it seems he was able to control him." This proves a few things, 1. Kid buu performed the feat before he killed and absorbed the kais 2. bibidi had no control over kid buu and was barely able to control fat buu, the one who he was forced to seal. 3. The fat buu is described as gentle and mild mannered and not fearless and heartless. From this we can deduce that, Kid buu performed the feat single handedly without help from bibidi and only after buu killed the kai's did bibidi start using him. There you go, those two things to consider are now wrong.

Yeah it's an assumption built on narrative implication and supported by facts. I would LOVE to hear your so called "more reasonable possibilities". I will reiterate, there is no logical explanation for buu performing this feat that hasn't already been explained or debunked (you haven't actually reiforced your sealing argument thing) except Buu performing the feat with his legs.

Unfortunately for me, to make a change, I have to convince you. If you're just gonna clog your ears and not listen then I'll just speak with other people, the reason I'm responding is to prove my argument right.

So you're intentionally taking the obvious wrong interpretation of the statement? That's clearly disingenuous. the fan translation isn't as accurate as the official which describes the universe with "dying", the universe doesn't die in that sense, meaning that this is a metaphor for clearing the universe of life. Which is consistent with, what, 4 more universal threat statements?
I'll admit that I don't actually know how elder kai thinks buu will reach the kai realm if he doesn't have teleportation, since buu clearly cannot fly there. But this does not discredit the universe threat part as they are irrelevant from each other.

It does make sense, he's referencing the the earth which has just been blown up and simultaneously referring to the future tense which is the planets he will blow up until they make the plan. It is very clear this is the meaning. Uhh yes it's referring to planets with life, did you not see my explanation as to why or did you ignore it? Buu's at least a galaxy buster if that's not the case since he needs to be a threat to all the universe and not just life in it.

Not reaching, it's narrative implication. which you are also going against.

Hyperbole that is strangely consistent with 5 other statements which are not hyperbole. No he's not a threat at that rating, for him to be a relevant threat to the universe, he needs to be able to cross interstellar distances quickly to destroy life on these planets, something which he has done before in the form of destroying several hundreds of planets in a few years. The low end of the calc is if we take the feat at face value, the high end is with actual context. OR he's like 20c but multi galaxy level for destroying lifeless worlds which you seem to be imlying for some reason.

And I'm here to argue that it's not too dicey, but it's just not fair to me if you come, put down some arguments then clog your ears and not listen to my reply. That's stone walling and it's not fair, just cuz you already decided it's unusable doesn't make it a fact and I should be allowed to challenge that.
Bruh discussion rule.
@ByAsura @DarkDragonMedeus What do you both think?

 

[Antvasima]

@Antvasima We'll have to make a discussion rule about not trying to upgrade DBZ speed. We literally had an exhaustive discussion over it last year with SSJRyu and came to a compromise only to witness another upgrade thread few months later. We already decided to highball the speed enough already due to multipliers when the best feat is rel+ and seeing how this keeps coming up and there are not a lot of staff members willing to participate and I hear regular complains about multiplier abuse, I think it is time we ban this topic after this thread.

Okay. That seems fine to me, but somebody needs to change back the DB speed values to how they were before.

 

[ByAsura]

@ByAsura @DarkDragonMedeus What do you both think?

I completely agree that it was Kid Buu, but I'm remaining neutral until either you or AKM concedes because I honestly have completely lost interest in the debate itself.

Okay. That seems fine to me, but somebody needs to change back the DB speed values to how they were before.

Let's hold off on that for now.

 

[AKM sama]

No, I've listened to your arguments and I have come across those arguments multiple times in the past. And I have used those arguments before you (not here, somewhere else). And I think the statement about Buu destroying several planets is unclear and we cannot determine the process with that information, even if it was Kid Buu. You think otherwise, which is fine. I also think being a threat to the universe is more than factored in his current ratings (as it will hardly take him a year to destroy a hundred planets which is a very short amount of time from the perspective of Shin and Buu), and you think otherwise. It's not like I am clogging my ears. I am disagreeing with you. We each have our interpretations and our standards for these points.

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

No, I've listened to your arguments and I have come across those arguments multiple times in the past. And I have used those arguments before you (not here, somewhere else). And I think the statement about Buu destroying several planets is unclear and we cannot determine the process with that information, even if it was Kid Buu. You think otherwise, which is fine. I also think being a threat to the universe is more than factored in his current ratings (as it will hardly take him a year to destroy a hundred planets which is a very short amount of time from the perspective of Shin and Buu), and you think otherwise. It's not like I am clogging my ears. I am disagreeing with you. We each have our interpretations and our standards for these points.

You seen my arguments before but you don't even bother responding or maybe you can't. That's not useful, that's basically you stating your opinion without giving evidence.
I am trying to argue that my interpretation is correct and you say you disagree and refuse to debate, basically shutting down any attempt at a discussion and then proposing a discussion rule. Bruh. I'm just going to wait for darkdragonmdjdjh's opinion then.

I completely agree that it was Kid Buu, but I'm remaining neutral until either you or AKM concedes because I honestly have completely lost interest in the debate itself.

Let's hold off on that for now.

Alright thanks.

 

[AKM sama]

I've been responding to you since the last 20-30 comments...what are you even saying? You can't just force me to agree with you simply because you think you're right.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I have to go to work soon, so I cannot go over everything discussed back and forth, but could both sides please slow down?