-
This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.
For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here. -
We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.
Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.
Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page. -
Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.
Dragon Ball Z Manga Power Scaling
- Thread starter FluffyCreatureZ
- Start date
- Status
- 167,684
- 76,264
- 8,857
- 5,697
- Thread starter
- #1,083
Usually the mastermind or the leader is the one who is gets the credit, but that doesn't mean the robbery could have happened with him alone. If the cab is not there to pick them up then they'll fail. This means that everyone gets credit for the crime since it couldn't be done without each group. In this case bibidi is the mastermind and the one allowing buu to destroy planets in the first place, if he's not getting credit then that means he wasn't involved. He recieved credit for allegedly creating buu but he never recieved credit for helping him destroy planets.
I found three statements. Vegeta says that if buu's released, the world is toast. Kibito (an actual reliable source for this statement) says that no one in the universe is safe from buu. Piccolo (another reliable source as he sensed buu's power) states that everything in the universe will be killed by buu.
This proves that Buu is a relevant threat to the universe without either instant teleportation or bibidi. This supports all the other evidence that buu performed the feat by crossing interstellar distance with them feet.
You misunderstamd my argument, what I originally said was that why would bibidi need to seal buu (since he couldn't control him) and manually take him to their next destination if bibidi already had a way to transport buu that prevented buu from killing him?
No. They are only linear from 8000-32000 and from 90000-180000. That is only what we can prove. Other than that, we have no proof that kaioken 10x Goku has a power level above 530000. We know for a fact that 18000 to 530000 is not linear as it is baseline planet to some dwarf star+ tier.
Goku could barely hold a kaioken 20x after he got a massive zenkai which pushed him from practically nothing to 1st form freeza to stronger than 3rd form freeza. Even this Goku stated that he could withstand a kk10 but never said anything about a 20x and the wiki already treats kk10x Goku as a likely rating.
- 11,134
- 14,116
This was what I posted earlier, but I think the first point is void now that ByAsura's comment makes the scaling okay even without that argument.
So only the second and third.
Stefano4444
He/Him- 6,195
- 5,321
Actually it doesn't, Anime DBS scale from this feat.
- 167,684
- 76,264
Okay. That is probably fine then.
Do any justifications in the wiki profile pages need to be updated based on what ByAsura said?
EmilioRory10
He/Him- 925
- 1,117
but isn't that the same thing?
- 31,376
- 34,126
I kind of got lost, what's wrong with using 17's statement as using an AP multiplier? I know we rejected it for speed doubling, but I though using it to say 17 and 18 are twice as strong as Trunks was okay last I checked. But I only recently heard AKM mentioning it "Being rejected" but didn't see reasons for it making sense. Unless someone can repeat the points.
- 8,857
- 5,697
- Thread starter
- #1,089
Asura man argued against the scaling itself stating that the gohan that fought 17 in the rematch isn't necessarily weaker than less than 50% 17 but actually stronger meaning we can't scale 17 reliably to 2x gohan but he then stopped. After, he proposed that SSJ gohan that got his arm lopped by 17 scales to final form freeza meaning his SSJ form would scale to the same value as namek goku meaning the 2x multiplier is applicable regardless. If you want more details you can just read the arguments again.
- 31,376
- 34,126
Ah, I see. So it would apply to 17 and 18 regardless, not to mention Trunks having statements about at their peaks; they were somewhat evenly matched with the Future versions of 17 and 18 where as the mainline timeline versions one-shotted them outright could leave room for them to apply to Trunks and Future Gohan as well, but being 2x stronger than Frieza Saga SSJ Goku still holds for Future Androids regardless.
Gilad_Hyperstar
He/Him- 11,381
- 4,319
Yeah. Trunks said that he could at least somewhat fight the Future Androids, but the Present Androids are much more powerful than them as 17 instantly one shotted Trunks
- 8,857
- 5,697
- Thread starter
- #1,092
Hey asura man, I also found another statement about buu being a threat to the universe without IT and bibidi but this one is a little weird because it's about bulma getting groped.
Spinoirr
He/Him- 16,066
- 9,038
Hey asura man, I also found another statement about buu being a threat to the universe without IT and bibidi but this one is a little weird because it's about bulma getting groped.
Viz version
Vizer04
He/Him- 5,167
- 3,063
Let's see, Goku thought that he could take on Frieza in his 2nd Form:
We have to remember that Vegeta and the others couldn't even scratch an off-guard Frieza:
- 4
- 1
agree
- 22,337
- 18,523
In the actual translation/raws, he's mocking him.
Also, I couldn't quite find exactly what world referred to, but it could mean universe.
What he says is that they'll never be able to get a day of rest. Basically, there won't be peace again.
I don't see how Piccolo's a reliable source, but I'll roll with it.
I checked the raws (since the official translation says galaxy), and Piccolo does, in fact, say the universe is threatened. He doesn't say 'at this rate', though, he says 'leave things as they are'. So he's a relevant enough threat, but not all that fast.
I suppose he is.
On another note, you might want to try finding a version with better translations and scan quality. I'd tell you where to find them, but the forum censors the names.
- 8,857
- 5,697
- Thread starter
- #1,097
I actually do have a version with good scan quality but the site doesn't let me share it. But every statement I found was from the good translations and I just got the scan from the bad translations. There's also the statement Bout bulma getting groped, the context is kind of a joke but it shows that Goku and Gohan believe buu is a threat to the universe. Anyway what does this change for you about buu's feat?
He's just telling them to hold off until he gets there. He's not saying he can beat freeza, he's just telling them to hold off until he can come help them. And even if you interpret this as Goku being confident in beating freeza, Goku would have been taking into account the zenkai he would be getting.
- 22,337
- 18,523
Depending on the site, you may be able to download the higher quality scan and upload it through your message wall.
It means his speed would be astronomically higher than that hundreds of planets thing.
It means his speed would be astronomically higher than that hundreds of planets thing.
- 8,857
- 5,697
- Thread starter
- #1,099
You think we can use the high end as a low ball of casual buu, and scale him to what he normally scales to with multipliers? (20000-50000~c). This would support the huge MFTL+ multiplier ratings for DBZ.
Vizer04
He/Him- 5,167
- 3,063
Again, if he thinks he can be of any help against Frieza then he must be at least comparable to Vegeta, and even that is not enough since Vegeta was helpless against Frieza:
And there's no way that Goku could foresee a Zenkai that would make him jump from 5-B to High 5-A
Last edited:
- 8,857
- 5,697
- Thread starter
- #1,102
Oh my god we're on 12 pages. When will this end.
Not true, he's already seen vegeta go from below recoome to matching first form freeza which is technically a far bigger jump than from first form to second form freeza. Now couple that with kaioken 10x and it makes sense he thinks that he can do something against freeza, and then take his statement that he can't beat third form freeza with kk10 even counting a zenkai and this doesn't prove that 90000 pl goku is stronger than first form freeza.
Gilad_Hyperstar
He/Him- 11,381
- 4,319
I'm pretty sure that the way power levels work is that we can't use them for linear scaling, but higher power levell = higher AP, so considering a power level of 900,000 is bigger than 530,000 , someone with a power of 900,000 would scale to Frieza's High 5-A+ feat as well
Gilad_Hyperstar
He/Him- 11,381
- 4,319
This is the scan in the Viz version:
Keep in mind that Goku doesn't know about zenkai boosts, nor how they work (since when Vegeta explained how they worked, Goku wasn't there to hear it), so he would've no way to know how they work, especially not that he'd power up to such a degree he'd even surpass third form frieza
That means that Goku thinks that at his current power (with the help of Kaioken), he can stand up to second form Frieza, who is far superior to his first form
Gohan could. But only when he was enraged
Last edited:
- 8,857
- 5,697
- Thread starter
- #1,106
I know that. But we do not know if kk10 Goku actually has a power level of 900000 or not, and along with that, a power level of 42000 is planet level but one of 530000 is dwarf star+, this means this is a non linear increase. Because of this, we cannot scale scale kk10 Goku above 1st form freeza using power levels.
He should've known about it actually, he had already experienced zenkai's during his training on the way to namek several times. And he also sensed vegeta go from below recoome to matching 1st form freeza. Why do you think Goku waited until he was fully 100% healed before he left to help his friends?
Gilad_Hyperstar
He/Him- 11,381
- 4,319
Yes we do. Kaioken increases power level linearly, but those may not be translated to a linear increase in AP (We know Goku with Kaioken times 2 had a PL of 16000, while with KK3 he had 24,000). So similarly, a kaioken times 10 would be 900,000 from a base PL of 90,000. Also, when Goku used the Kaioken against Ginyu, he had a PL of 180,000 even in Ginyu's scouter
However, even if power level increases are non linear, we do know that higher power level = higher AP. Anyone who scale to First Form Frieza's PL of 530,000 would also be High 5-A+
Still he doesn't know how it works. And even then, he certainly couldn't have anticipated that his zenkai would elevate him to such degrees he would even eclipse Vegeta after his zenkai against third form frieza
Goku didn't knew about it. He waited to heal because otherwise Goku would be in no state to fight or help his friends, and would've not be able to also use the kaioken to help them
- 8,857
- 5,697
- Thread starter
- #1,108
Actually it's the opposite, kaioken increases AP and speed linearly but the power level increase isn't necessarily linear. Everytime it's used it does increase power level linearly, but in this case, we know for a fact that going to 530000 is not a linear increase. Goku going kk6x may not make his power level 540000 and thus above freeza, that's why we can't scale linearly without proof, otherwise this scaling would work if we did actually know that Goku's pl is 900000 in kk10
He doesn't need to think it would elevate him above vegeta, he would just take into account that himself after zenkai + kk10 is not above 3rd form freeza.
Not true, goku was almost fully healed by the time freeza was pounding vegeta but goku waited until he was fully healed before leaving because that's the conditions of a zenkai.
Anyway, thinking about this more, maybe this scaling is viable, but I'd leave it for another CRT. Stay clear from here for now and continue this discussion in the other thread.
Gilad_Hyperstar
He/Him- 11,381
- 4,319
Why wouldn't it be? You yourself admit the increase in power level and AP is linear too, so there's no reason why it would suddenly not increase power levels linearly when it did so in all other occasions. Without proof showing why this should be any different, there's no reason to assume the increase in PL isn't linear too (In that case, Goku and Ginyu would downscale from First Form Frieza's feat, which even makes sense since Frieza was very causal when doing the feat, and used one finger, so he used much less power than the 530,000 he has at full power)
He thought that even if he's healed, he couldn't beat 3rd form Frieza (which we know is wrong). But was confident he could do something against second form Frieza since he thought that if Gohan, Krillin, Vegeta and Piccolo could stall him long enough, Goku could come and help them defeat him
- 8,857
- 5,697
- Thread starter
- #1,110
That's because when the power levels hit 530000, it stops being linear because we jump from planet level to dwarf star level. We have no proof it was linear from 90000 to 530000 so we cannot assume it is. That's unquantifiable, it'd just be <<<530000.
The key word here is "healed", goku thought zenkai + kk10 wouldn't beat 3rd freeza but he maybe though he could do something against 2nd form. This doesn't apply to 90000 Goku however since he doesn't have that zenkai.
Also stop discussing this here, it already has a thread.
Gilad_Hyperstar
He/Him- 11,381
- 4,319
You're the one who needs to come with a proof to show why it isn't linear despite kaioken increases being linear in both power level and AP. The jump in AP doesn't matter because the only reason they're even scaled to High 5-A is because feats > power systems. And considering you have no proof and can't come with anything to support your point, the only solution to keep both increases as consistent (since kaioken increases both AP and PL linearly, and it stays that way unless you prove it doesn't) is that both Namek Saga Goku and Ginyu would downscale from Frieza's feat, much like how Base Goku in the Saiyan Saga downscales from Vegeta's planet level feat
Gilad_Hyperstar
He/Him- 11,381
- 4,319
Fluffy basically trying to argue kaioken increase isn't linear for some reason even though it is in every occasion it was used, and provides no proof to support his claims
Gilad_Hyperstar
He/Him- 11,381
- 4,319
Honestly, I don't think applying power levels in Dragon Ball would even work. They were only mentioned later by some guides and weren't confirmed anywhere in the story for earlier sagas, so I don't think these examples would work
- 22,337
- 18,523
It's just one example of how treating PLs as linear without transformations probably isn't the best idea.
In probably one of the more linear parts of Dragon Ball, Krillin split one energy blast into six parts, four of which vaporized Saibamen on par with Raditz. Even if you don't want to go by Daizenshu because this could be a SBC-like attack that increases power, Krillin's power level here is bound to be under 5,000.
In probably one of the more linear parts of Dragon Ball, Krillin split one energy blast into six parts, four of which vaporized Saibamen on par with Raditz. Even if you don't want to go by Daizenshu because this could be a SBC-like attack that increases power, Krillin's power level here is bound to be under 5,000.
Gilad_Hyperstar
He/Him- 11,381
- 4,319
Well this instance has kaioken as a transformation, so I don't understand what are you trying to argue
I mean, we also scale Nappa to Low 5-B despite him having a PL of 4,000 to 6,000
- 8,857
- 5,697
- Thread starter
- #1,119
Glowing rat man, I'm not claiming kaioken isn't linear, I'm saying it is linear when scaling AP but AP is not linear to power level except when it is (8000-32000 and 90000-180000). In this case, we cannot prove it is, and because of that we cannot apply the linear to AP kaioken to the non linear pl 530000 because it corresponds to an AP way greater than 6 times.
This is called a strawman argument.
They trying to downscale namek goku from 1st form freeza's feat.
- Status
Similar threads
