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Damn, you got the wiki page in blue, dark's better.Well, you tried:
According to you. I don’t buy into your logic because we don’t see anything to suggest it’s flight.Sorry but there is no way kid buu rode a space ship with bibidi.
In Babidi’s first appearance. Also, it’s not really that much of a stretch to assume he hasn’t a large amount of ways to travel.Just because shin called bididi's power massive (when did that even happen) doesn't mean he knows teleportation, that's just head canon.
Toriyama confirmed Buu undergoes certain periods of dormancy, and Bibidi pulled him out of that dormancy like Babidi. They’d have meet to at some point, and he’s always associated with him.Kid Buu not killing bibidi is a good point, but it does not defeat my argument because bibidi could have easily just not encountered buu, which is consistent with bibidi being unable to control buu and supports buu traveling to each planet by walking.
No it’s wouldn’t be included. It was Buu who destroyed the planets, so Bibidi gets the credit as his (sort of master) while Buu is the feared and powerful one.Destroying planets requires you to go to each planet, (unless buu is 4-A which clearly is not true), so bibidi's help would include taking buu to each planet, but that is never stated and the opposite is.
Why? Those planet’s surfaces were shown as scorched, and we’ve seen all forms of Buu alternate from playful to obliterating planets.Also if they could just teleport, then they could have easily destroyed MUCH more than hundreds of planets in a few years. They could destroy hundreds of planets in a day if they could teleport to each one.
I meant Bibidi. My point was that he’s portrayed as capable of interacting with Buu across light-years and planets, otherwise he’d logically be unable to interact with Buu’s other form. So he definitely has interstellar travel already.Next point is confusing, do you mean babidi knew about buu's forms or bibidi? if you mean babidi then babidi would have no reason to take into account kid buu's form since he's already tamable in fat form. If you mean bibidi then what? Bibidi only learned about fat Buu AFTER he already performed the feat.
He did seal Buu, but the rest isn’t shown in the manga.This actually ties well into this point, bibidi only started taking buu to different planets after he performed the feat, after which bibidi realized buu was too strong to control and decided to seal him and take him to places himself, if he had a way to transport buu then he wouldn't need to seal him then take him to another destination.
It’s support that he likely has other forms of travel.Babidi getting dabura is unknown how he did it and it wouldn't apply to bibidi.
Then stop relying on massive assumptions.Not another possibly rating noooooooo.
No it doesn’t. Not adding the feat at all requires the least assumptions.My argument relies on the least amount of assumptions, actually there is no other way buu could have been transported to planets.
Someone needs to calc the shockwave speed for the speed of the god tiers of the super manga (remember earth in the super manga is at the edge of the universe) I can get the Viz scan for that
Good to know.Just a note to ByAsura that I think that we can use the Dragon Ball Kai anime for timeframes of manga feats that happen the same way in both.
Again bro, there is no way kid buu rode a space ship with bibidi, that would contradict his bloodlusted nature, how else could have bibidi transported him which doesn't involve head canon?According to you. I don’t buy into your logic because we don’t see anything to suggest it’s flight.
In Babidi’s first appearance. Also, it’s not really that much of a stretch to assume he hasn’t a large amount of ways to travel.
Toriyama confirmed Buu undergoes certain periods of dormancy, and Bibidi pulled him out of that dormancy like Babidi. They’d have meet to at some point, and he’s always associated with him.
No it’s wouldn’t be included. It was Buu who destroyed the planets, so Bibidi gets the credit as his (sort of master) while Buu is the feared and powerful one.
Why? Those planet’s surfaces were shown as scorched, and we’ve seen all forms of Buu alternate from playful to obliterating planets.
I meant Bibidi. My point was that he’s portrayed as capable of interacting with Buu across light-years and planets, otherwise he’d logically be unable to interact with Buu’s other form. So he definitely has interstellar travel already.
He did seal Buu, but the rest isn’t shown in the manga.
That doesn’t really make sense to assume? Why would he seal him in another dimension when he can just keep Buu maintained in one place without movement or possibility of escape? It’s not like the cocoon is fragile, since even Gohan’s Kamehameha either did nothing or just cracked it in two.
It’s support that he likely has other forms of travel.
Then stop relying on massive assumptions.
No it doesn’t. Not adding the feat at all requires the least assumptions.
Buu only learned teleportation after seeing Shin do it after Super Buu reverted back to Kid BuuPretty sure Babidi can teleport... or Buu could... I really don't know what it would be
'There is no way' in and of itself is headcanon.Again bro, there is no way kid buu rode a space ship with bibidi, that would contradict his bloodlusted nature, how else could have bibidi transported him which doesn't involve head canon?
As I said, Toriyama confirmed it in an interview.He's associated with him because he allegedly created him. I don't recall anything about buu being dormant in the manga, can you scan me?
Could have, which relies on headcanon.Anyway bibidi could have revived buu then buu got out of his control then went away to destroy planets before bibidi sealed him, and took him to places himself, this is consistent with bibidi finding buu uncontrollable.
I still don't see why it would be included. Buu is the one destroying the planets and the one who's feared, not Bibidi.Yes it would be included, how would bibidi get credit for being his master if he couldn't even control him? And hiw would he transport him if so? If he could actually transport him then bibidi would get credit for helping buu destroy planets.
And the first thing he did after that was toy with Goku and Vegeta.The first thing buu did when he spawned was try to destroy earth, buu only doesn't do that when there are people he can fight like when he saw goku and vegeta and even then he just blew up the earth anyway. So if bibidi can teleport him then he buu would've went planet to planet destroying them instantly which means way more than hundreds of planets would be destroyed.
Bruh, he was dormant when Bibidi pulled him out (according to Toriyama), so they'd have interacted.I don't understand your point, he could only control buu after he became fat, which means he only needed to interact with him after he became fat. This ties well with buu being out of control and performing the feat by himself. Also bibidi only sealed buu after he became fat bruh.
You said he could just seal him in another dimension. I'm saying that doesn't make sense in context.I don't understand this, what do you mean by bibidi sealing buu in another dimension?
The operative word is also. We don't actually see it. At best, it's a strong possibility.No you are also using assumptions, it makes far more sense for buu to have performed the feat by himself.
So can you remind me what you think that we should do here please?
On this point, I don't even see why Goku and Future Trunks scales.Well, this thread will keep going like this. The changes we need to do here are:
- I believe the changes that were made due to assuming Android 17 is twice as strong as Future Gohan would have to be redone because that is rejected.
Cell's spy robots only got Trunks' power before he came back after these 3 years. Also, Gohan and Trunks were talking about FUTURE Goku, not present Goku who trained much harder in the 3 years before the Androids.On this point, I don't even see why Goku and Future Trunks scales.
If the Androids are supposedly holding back when Trunks and Gohan thought Goku could beat them, then this scaling is already dead in the water. But that's not enough, Future Trunks went back to the future for a while from his perspective, and Cell's spy bots still confirmed he was weaker than the future versions of 17 and 18. It was only after going to the past and training that he gained this much strength.
It's not that they don't get a zenkai, but rather that they're likely so small they don't matter much (until they do in the Goku Black Saga, and the Universe Survival Saga)Additionally, the Zenkai boosts Goku, Gohan and Vegeta receive after the Frieza Saga are significantly lower (which is probably why Vegeta gains very little in the way of power after 18 breaks both his arms and leaves him knocked out, and Ultimate Gohan gains nothing). So he would have gained no strength 5 days after recovering, and after Bulma confirmed his strength wasn't that different from Future Gohan.
Yes, which is when he would have had strength on par with Goku and Future Gohan. Clearly that statement of them being equal doesn't really make much sense given what Bulma said, which is what we're using to scale them in the first place.Cell's spy robots only got Trunks' power before he came back after these 3 years.
What I said is it'd apply to the Androids at less than half power. Even Gohan says so at a time before then.Also, Gohan and Trunks were talking about FUTURE Goku, not present Goku who trained much harder in the 3 years before the Androids.
If 18 is even somewhat comparable to 17 (Akira Toriyama is somewhat infamous for his flipflopping), she was holding back her strength a lot. Piccolo at the time believed both Androids were both of the Androids were far inferior to Cell.SSJ Vegeta, who is comparable or slightly superior to SSJ Goku at the time, fought Android 18 pretty well, with her resorting to stalling him and draining his stamina before going on the offensive and beating him. Android 17 also stated that if SSJ Vegeta, SSJ Trunks and Piccolo would fight Android 18 all at once, they'll overwhelm her. Considering Trunks and Piccolo are way below Vegeta at the time, that means the gap between him and Present Android 18 is not that big
Wouldn't matter if he's only referring to the Androids at half power.Keep in mind that the Present Androids are much stronger than the ones in the future, so if Vegeta managed to hold his own against a much stronger Android 18 than her counterpart in the future, it's safe to assume he'd win against a much weaker Future 18. Same goes to Goku as he's comparable to Vegeta.
However only Goku and Vegeta (as well as Kamiccolo and the Present Androids) would scale to twice of Future Gohan's strength, as Trunks was evidently far below Vegeta in that fight
Which I said. The point, regardless of that, is Future Trunks gained very little strength after the Androids put him in the hospital for 5 days.It's not that they don't get a zenkai, but rather that they're likely so small they don't matter much (until they do in the Goku Black Saga, and the Universe Survival Saga)
When they were both holding back, 18 managed to keep him at bay despite approaching him nonchalantly. Then, when they decided to get serious, 18 tanked a strike to the abdomen before grounding him with a single strike and knocking him away, leaving him bloodied and bruised. After that, 18 proceeded to knock him around, effortlessly block his attacks, and then just dominate him, ultimately leading to 18 breaking his arm and finally stomping him; at this point, Vegeta was only slowly being worn down, so the difference between him at the start of the fight and him then would not be as large as you suggest it is. On top of that, none of his attacks even fazed 18, with only one blast scratching her. And, "the Androids cannot feel pain" is not a valid argument, as 17 was clearly wounded by Piccolo and by Cell, two characters equal to and superior to him, respectively.fought Android 18 pretty well
Piccolo was wrong with that however. Cell himself says that he needs to absorb more humans to surpass the AndroidsIf 18 is even somewhat comparable to 17 (Akira Toriyama is somewhat infamous for his flipflopping), she was holding back her strength a lot. Piccolo at the time believed both Androids were both of the Androids were far inferior to Cell.
Vegeta was still pretty fine afterwards, and later landed some good hits on her, enough for Android 17 to think that if Trunks and Piccolo would've joined Vegeta, they'll defeat her, causing him to make a deal with the Z fighter than he won't interfere as long as they won't help Vegeta either. Trunks also states that Vegeta is holding his own well against Android 18, with Piccolo saying that she's tiring him down and will win because of thatWhen they were both holding back, 18 managed to keep him at bay despite approaching him nonchalantly. Then, when they decided to get serious, 18 tanked a strike to the abdomen before grounding him with a single strike and knocking him away, leaving him bloodied and bruised. After that,
It's literally is though. And the scenes you used were after Vegeta already dropped in stamina so at this point he became too weak to fight her anymore18 proceeded to knock him around, effortlessly block his attacks, and then just dominate him, ultimately leading to 18 breaking his arm and finally stomping him; at this point, Vegeta was only slowly being worn down, so the difference between him at the start of the fight and him then would not be as large as you suggest it is.
This is my entire point to begin with.Piccolo was wrong with that however. Cell himself says that he needs to absorb more humans to surpass the Androids
Piccolo never fought Android 18 when she fought Vegeta, and Android 17 only used minimal power since the rest were much weaker than VegetaThis is my entire point to begin with.
Piccolo can't sense the Androids' power levels, and believed they were a lot weaker because they used far less strength than Cell against the Z-Fighters.
Piccolo was not using his full power when he fought Gero, and he even stated the drain Gero got was very minimal. And Piccolo is definitely much weaker than Vegeta, as Android 20 doesn't scale to him at all, and while Piccolo was stated to be almost comparable to a Super Saiyan, that doesn't mean that it's for Android Saga Goku, as it could be Post-Yardrat or even Frieza Saga SSJ GokuPiccolo can sense Vegeta's power, which he used as a metric here. As for 17 using minimal power, go figure, that's my point (plus, Piccolo isn't that much weaker than Vegeta since he retained the majority of his power after 19 absorbed it, and it's still stated Gero could win)
And I still stand by that. Gohan and Trunks were only comparable to the Androids' less than half of their full power, because even if Gohan surpassed the power 17 showed, it still doesn't mean he surpassed 50% Android 17 because he evidently used less against Gohan last timeMy guy, you and Fluffy were arguing the other day that Future Trunks and Future Gohan only fought the Androids at less than half power, and is only comparable to them at that level of power. You even went to such great lengths as to suggest that 17 didn't actually power up before facing Gohan this time.
I never said that. I said that about PRESENT Goku. Don't twist my words for the sake of your argumentWhy now is Future Goku suddenly equal to their full power and Future Trunks' statement suddenly referring to their full power? It is either one way or the other.
Why wouldn't Piccolo be fighting at full power? He never says that, and strongly implies otherwise.Piccolo was not using his full power when he fought Gero, and he even stated the drain Gero got was very minimal.
It is outright stated that Gero would have most likely won against a drained Vegeta. Android 19's power is 19 + the power he absorbed, so Vegeta logically would have retained the majority of his strength in order to rip 18's arms off.And Piccolo is definitely much weaker than Vegeta, as Android 20 doesn't scale to him at all, and while Piccolo was stated to be almost comparable to a Super Saiyan, that doesn't mean that it's for Android Saga Goku, as it could be Post-Yardrat or even Frieza Saga SSJ Goku
I never accused you of it directly, I contested the scaling because Goku from Yaradrat is scaled to Future Goku, who's scaled to the Future Androids being twice Future Gohan, via Trunks' statement. You're the one who started this twisted argument.I never said that. I said that about PRESENT Goku. Don't twist my words for the sake of your argument
Trunks would have had to have seen the Androids at full power for this to work, and your previous arguments relies on that not being the case.What I actually meant is that Present Android Saga Goku, should scale to the Future Androids, as Vegeta fought decently against Present Android 18, who is much stronger than the Future Androids, so Goku and Vegeta should probably scale as well as they aren't that far from the Present Androids
Piccolo powered up after Gero attacked him. Fighters like Piccolo can change their power level instantlyWhy wouldn't Piccolo be fighting at full power? He never says that, and strongly implies otherwise.
Vegeta wasn't in full power either when he fought Android 18, since he was already drained from the fight against Android 19 and GeroIt is outright stated that Gero would have most likely won against a drained Vegeta. Android 19's power is 19 + the power he absorbed, so Vegeta logically would have retained the majority of his strength in order to rip 18's arms off.
No. I didn't say that Post-Yardrat Goku scales to them. Android Saga Goku would scale due to Vegeta's feat when fighting Present Android 18, who is >>> her future selfI never accused you of it directly, I contested the scaling because Goku from Yaradrat is scaled to Future Goku, who's scaled to the Future Androids being twice Future Gohan, via Trunks' statement. You're the one who started this twisted argument.
Then it's either the Future Androids are equal to the Present Androids, which will be the case if they held back on Trunks (which can be argued to be true, though we have no feats to say they did)Trunks would have had to have seen the Androids at full power for this to work, and your previous arguments relies on that not being the case.
crunchsince he was already drained from the fight against Android 19 and Gero
Like, yeah, he has the ability to alter his power level, but nothing suggests he held back.Piccolo powered up after Gero attacked him. Fighters like Piccolo can change their power level instantly
No. Vegeta got a senzu bean right after, so he wasn't drained (that much, anyway, Gero absorbed a single attack), which is why he outclassed Gero so heavily to begin with; Piccolo confirms he would have lost against Gero if he didn't eat the bean.Vegeta wasn't in full power either when he fought Android 18, since he was already drained from the fight against Android 19 and Gero
Oh my god, I'm not saying you did. I'm saying Yaradrat Goku is currently scaled to the Androids, and I'm contesting it.No. I didn't say that Post-Yardrat Goku scales to them. Android Saga Goku would scale due to Vegeta's feat when fighting Present Android 18, who is >>> her future self
Post Yardrat Goku is obviously much weaker than that, and so is Future Goku, and neither scale to the Androids
They're actually stronger for different reasons. The Future Androids are inferior to Future Cell, while the Present Androids at full power are stronger than Cell after he absorbed 15,000 humans.Then it's either the Future Androids are equal to the Present Androids, which will be the case if they held back on Trunks (which can be argued to be true, though we have no feats to say they did)
Like I said, they are, but Trunks fought them once with Gohan's level of power and got creamed, so if your past arguments are true, he wouldn't know their full power.Or that they are really weaker than them like he said, as Trunks could fight the Future Androids for a while, but he fell in one shot to the Prssent Androids