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Dragon Ball Z Manga Power Scaling
- Thread starter FluffyCreatureZ
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Damn, you got the wiki page in blue, dark's better.Well, you tried:
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According to you. I don’t buy into your logic because we don’t see anything to suggest it’s flight.
In Babidi’s first appearance. Also, it’s not really that much of a stretch to assume he hasn’t a large amount of ways to travel.
Toriyama confirmed Buu undergoes certain periods of dormancy, and Bibidi pulled him out of that dormancy like Babidi. They’d have meet to at some point, and he’s always associated with him.
No it’s wouldn’t be included. It was Buu who destroyed the planets, so Bibidi gets the credit as his (sort of master) while Buu is the feared and powerful one.
Why? Those planet’s surfaces were shown as scorched, and we’ve seen all forms of Buu alternate from playful to obliterating planets.
I meant Bibidi. My point was that he’s portrayed as capable of interacting with Buu across light-years and planets, otherwise he’d logically be unable to interact with Buu’s other form. So he definitely has interstellar travel already.
He did seal Buu, but the rest isn’t shown in the manga.
That doesn’t really make sense to assume? Why would he seal him in another dimension when he can just keep Buu maintained in one place without movement or possibility of escape? It’s not like the cocoon is fragile, since even Gohan’s Kamehameha either did nothing or just cracked it in two.
It’s support that he likely has other forms of travel.
Then stop relying on massive assumptions.
No it doesn’t. Not adding the feat at all requires the least assumptions.
The_Legendary_Vin
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y'all HAVEN'T done that yet?
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Again bro, there is no way kid buu rode a space ship with bibidi, that would contradict his bloodlusted nature, how else could have bibidi transported him which doesn't involve head canon?
He's associated with him because he allegedly created him. I don't recall anything about buu being dormant in the manga, can you scan me? Anyway bibidi could have revived buu then buu got out of his control then went away to destroy planets before bibidi sealed him, and took him to places himself, this is consistent with bibidi finding buu uncontrollable.
Yes it would be included, how would bibidi get credit for being his master if he couldn't even control him? And hiw would he transport him if so? If he could actually transport him then bibidi would get credit for helping buu destroy planets.
The first thing buu did when he spawned was try to destroy earth, buu only doesn't do that when there are people he can fight like when he saw goku and vegeta and even then he just blew up the earth anyway. So if bibidi can teleport him then he buu would've went planet to planet destroying them instantly which means way more than hundreds of planets would be destroyed.
I don't understand your point, he could only control buu after he became fat, which means he only needed to interact with him after he became fat. This ties well with buu being out of control and performing the feat by himself. Also bibidi only sealed buu after he became fat bruh.
I don't understand this, what do you mean by bibidi sealing buu in another dimension?
Okay.
No you are also using assumptions, it makes far more sense for buu to have performed the feat by himself.
The_Legendary_Vin
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Pretty sure Babidi can teleport... or Buu could... I really don't know what it would be
The_Legendary_Vin
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Bibidi might not be able to though
Gilad_Hyperstar
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Buu only learned teleportation after seeing Shin do it after Super Buu reverted back to Kid Buu
The_Legendary_Vin
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So probably babidi
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'There is no way' in and of itself is headcanon.
As I said, Toriyama confirmed it in an interview.
Could have, which relies on headcanon.
I still don't see why it would be included. Buu is the one destroying the planets and the one who's feared, not Bibidi.
And the first thing he did after that was toy with Goku and Vegeta.
We see scorched, blackened planets with dead people in the scan. Clearly he didn't blow up these worlds completely.
Bruh, he was dormant when Bibidi pulled him out (according to Toriyama), so they'd have interacted.
You said he could just seal him in another dimension. I'm saying that doesn't make sense in context.
The operative word is also. We don't actually see it. At best, it's a strong possibility.
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Well, this thread will keep going like this. The changes we need to do here are:
- I believe the changes that were made due to assuming Android 17 is twice as strong as Future Gohan would have to be redone because that is rejected.
- Speed ratings would have to be changed because we aren't going above MFTL.
- Medeus' personal blog should be removed from the verse page until a new one is made.
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On this point, I don't even see why Goku and Future Trunks scales.
If the Androids are using less than half their power when Trunks and Gohan thought Goku could beat them (Trunks was knocked out and couldn't sense their energy if he wanted to), then this scaling is already dead in the water. But that's not enough, Future Trunks went back to the future for 18 months between the meeting with Goku and Androids' awakening, and Cell's spy bots still confirmed he was weaker than Future 17 and 18 individually (keep in mind, as well, that Future Cell hadn't absorbed 15,000 people like present Cell, and Cell far surpassed non-weighted Kamicolo by only absorbing hundreds of thousands). It was only after going to the past and training that he gained the strength needed to obliterate them.
Additionally, the Zenkai boosts Goku, Gohan and Vegeta receive after the Frieza Saga are significantly lower (which is probably why Vegeta gains very little in the way of power after 18 breaks both his arms and leaves him knocked out, and Ultimate Gohan gains nothing). So he would have gained no strength 5 days after recovering, and after Bulma confirmed his strength wasn't that different from Future Gohan.
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Gilad_Hyperstar
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Cell's spy robots only got Trunks' power before he came back after these 3 years. Also, Gohan and Trunks were talking about FUTURE Goku, not present Goku who trained much harder in the 3 years before the Androids.
SSJ Vegeta, who is comparable or slightly superior to SSJ Goku at the time, fought Android 18 pretty well, with her resorting to stalling him and draining his stamina before going on the offensive and beating him. Android 17 also stated that if SSJ Vegeta, SSJ Trunks and Piccolo would fight Android 18 all at once, they'll overwhelm her. Considering Trunks and Piccolo are way below Vegeta at the time, that means the gap between him and Present Android 18 is not that big
Keep in mind that the Present Androids are much stronger than the ones in the future, so if Vegeta managed to hold his own against a much stronger Android 18 than her counterpart in the future, it's safe to assume he'd win against a much weaker Future 18. Same goes to Goku as he's comparable to Vegeta
However only Goku and Vegeta (as well as Kamiccolo and the Present Androids) would scale to twice of Future Gohan's strength, as Trunks was evidently far below Vegeta in that fight
It's not that they don't get a zenkai, but rather that they're likely so small they don't matter much (until they do in the Goku Black Saga, and the Universe Survival Saga)
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Yes, which is when he would have had strength on par with Goku and Future Gohan. Clearly that statement of them being equal doesn't really make much sense given what Bulma said, which is what we're using to scale them in the first place.
Plus, Future Trunks was back in the future for an entire 18 months between his first trip and second trip.
What I said is it'd apply to the Androids at less than half power. Even Gohan says so at a time before then.
As for Android Saga Goku, that's irrelevant.
If 18 is even somewhat comparable to 17 (Akira Toriyama is somewhat infamous for his flipflopping), she was holding back her strength a lot. Piccolo at the time believed both Androids were both of the Androids were far inferior to Cell.
Wouldn't matter if he's only referring to the Androids at half power.
Which I said. The point, regardless of that, is Future Trunks gained very little strength after the Androids put him in the hospital for 5 days.
Nullflowerblush
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When they were both holding back, 18 managed to keep him at bay despite approaching him nonchalantly. Then, when they decided to get serious, 18 tanked a strike to the abdomen before grounding him with a single strike and knocking him away, leaving him bloodied and bruised. After that, 18 proceeded to knock him around, effortlessly block his attacks, and then just dominate him, ultimately leading to 18 breaking his arm and finally stomping him; at this point, Vegeta was only slowly being worn down, so the difference between him at the start of the fight and him then would not be as large as you suggest it is. On top of that, none of his attacks even fazed 18, with only one blast scratching her. And, "the Androids cannot feel pain" is not a valid argument, as 17 was clearly wounded by Piccolo and by Cell, two characters equal to and superior to him, respectively.
EDIT: The Daizenshuu 7 confirms that 18 "easily won in her battle with Kuririn, Vegeta, and the others".
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Hold on, if we're scaling the Androids to twice Future Gohan, and Future Trunks scales to Goku who's apparently above the Androids anyway, how does this scaling even work?
Edit: Nvm, we're scaling him to Frieza Saga Goku with this statement that seemingly doesn't even apply to the Frieza Saga.
Edit: Nvm, we're scaling him to Frieza Saga Goku with this statement that seemingly doesn't even apply to the Frieza Saga.
Gilad_Hyperstar
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Piccolo was wrong with that however. Cell himself says that he needs to absorb more humans to surpass the Androids
Vegeta was still pretty fine afterwards, and later landed some good hits on her, enough for Android 17 to think that if Trunks and Piccolo would've joined Vegeta, they'll defeat her, causing him to make a deal with the Z fighter than he won't interfere as long as they won't help Vegeta either. Trunks also states that Vegeta is holding his own well against Android 18, with Piccolo saying that she's tiring him down and will win because of that
It's literally is though. And the scenes you used were after Vegeta already dropped in stamina so at this point he became too weak to fight her anymore
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This is my entire point to begin with.
Piccolo can't sense the Androids' power levels, and believed they were a lot weaker because they used far less strength than Cell against the Z-Fighters.
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Gilad_Hyperstar
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Piccolo never fought Android 18 when she fought Vegeta, and Android 17 only used minimal power since the rest were much weaker than Vegeta
And even if that's true, the Future Androids are still far weaker than the Present Androids so Android Saga Goku and Vegeta could still scale to them
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Piccolo can sense Vegeta's power, which he used as a metric here. As for 17 using minimal power, go figure, that's my point (plus, Piccolo isn't that much weaker than Vegeta since he retained the majority of his power after 19 absorbed it, and it's still stated Gero could win).
My guy, you and Fluffy were arguing the other day that Future Trunks and Future Gohan only fought the Androids at less than half power, and is only comparable to them at that level of power. You even went to such great lengths as to suggest that 17 didn't actually power up before facing Gohan this time. Why now is Future Goku suddenly equal to their full power and Future Trunks' statement suddenly referring to their full power? It is either one way or the other.
My guy, you and Fluffy were arguing the other day that Future Trunks and Future Gohan only fought the Androids at less than half power, and is only comparable to them at that level of power. You even went to such great lengths as to suggest that 17 didn't actually power up before facing Gohan this time. Why now is Future Goku suddenly equal to their full power and Future Trunks' statement suddenly referring to their full power? It is either one way or the other.
Gilad_Hyperstar
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Piccolo was not using his full power when he fought Gero, and he even stated the drain Gero got was very minimal. And Piccolo is definitely much weaker than Vegeta, as Android 20 doesn't scale to him at all, and while Piccolo was stated to be almost comparable to a Super Saiyan, that doesn't mean that it's for Android Saga Goku, as it could be Post-Yardrat or even Frieza Saga SSJ Goku
And I still stand by that. Gohan and Trunks were only comparable to the Androids' less than half of their full power, because even if Gohan surpassed the power 17 showed, it still doesn't mean he surpassed 50% Android 17 because he evidently used less against Gohan last time
I never said that. I said that about PRESENT Goku. Don't twist my words for the sake of your argument
Obviously Future Goku doesn't scale to them (probably, since he died before they arrived), but Present Goku trained a lot harder and is comparable to SSJ Vegeta, who fought decently agaisnt 18, with 17 thinking that Vegeta, alongside Piccolo and Trunks, will defeat her if they would fight together
What I actually meant is that Present Android Saga Goku, should scale to the Future Androids, as Vegeta fought decently against Present Android 18, who is much stronger than the Future Androids, so Goku and Vegeta should probably scale as well as they aren't that far from the Present Androids
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Why wouldn't Piccolo be fighting at full power? He never says that, and strongly implies otherwise.
It is outright stated that Gero would have most likely won against a drained Vegeta. Android 19's power is 19 + the power he absorbed, so Vegeta logically would have retained the majority of his strength in order to rip 18's arms off.
I never accused you of it directly, I contested the scaling because Goku from Yaradrat is scaled to Future Goku, who's scaled to the Future Androids being twice Future Gohan, via Trunks' statement. You're the one who started this twisted argument.
Trunks would have had to have seen the Androids at full power for this to work, and your previous arguments relies on that not being the case.
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Gilad_Hyperstar
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Piccolo powered up after Gero attacked him. Fighters like Piccolo can change their power level instantly
Vegeta wasn't in full power either when he fought Android 18, since he was already drained from the fight against Android 19 and Gero
No. I didn't say that Post-Yardrat Goku scales to them. Android Saga Goku would scale due to Vegeta's feat when fighting Present Android 18, who is >>> her future self
Post Yardrat Goku is obviously much weaker than that, and so is Future Goku, and neither scale to the Androids
Then it's either the Future Androids are equal to the Present Androids, which will be the case if they held back on Trunks (which can be argued to be true, though we have no feats to say they did)
Or that they are really weaker than them like he said, as Trunks could fight the Future Androids for a while, but he fell in one shot to the Prssent Androids
Nullflowerblush
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Like, yeah, he has the ability to alter his power level, but nothing suggests he held back.
I could use this argument to claim Goku is secretly above Jiren or pretty much anyone.
No. Vegeta got a senzu bean right after, so he wasn't drained (that much, anyway, Gero absorbed a single attack), which is why he outclassed Gero so heavily to begin with; Piccolo confirms he would have lost against Gero if he didn't eat the bean.
Even if he was, everybody suggests he's outclassed by the Androids at that level, and he stays in one place for 3 days because his pride is demolished.
Oh my god, I'm not saying you did. I'm saying Yaradrat Goku is currently scaled to the Androids, and I'm contesting it.
They're actually stronger for different reasons. The Future Androids are inferior to Future Cell, while the Present Androids at full power are stronger than Cell after he absorbed 15,000 humans.
Like I said, they are, but Trunks fought them once with Gohan's level of power and got creamed, so if your past arguments are true, he wouldn't know their full power.
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As of now, all of these characters are scaled to Frieza's very casual Supernova in his first form amplified by the Super Saiyan multiplier.
Gohan in the Frieza Saga could only scuff Second Form Frieza initially (who was supressed, but using way more power than his First Form) and heavily surprised Vegeta after he could fight almost on par with First Form Frieza, but his power after a Zenkai jumped to such an extent where Vegeta thought the outcome of a battle between the Z-Fighters and Frieza was looking more promising, despite his full power blast doing nothing to an off-guard Frieza. He then proceeds to make Third Form Frieza struggle with a rage amped attack, who confirms he got an amp. In fact, it's their ever-increasing abilities that makes Frieza skip to his strongest form.
The Saiyans by this point have also abused Zenkai enough that it just gave small amps, so it's very likely he's settled around this power level.
Now, for Future Gohan, whose timeline only diverted a year after the events of the Namek Saga.
It's confirmed that the last time Future Gohan fought Future Android 17 was a year ago, and he says he used less than half his power in that battle. They strongly imply this is the battle where he lost his arm, and we see in all media (including the Super manga that's canon to the original manga) that Future Gohan as a kid retains his arm. And he's grown stronger since that battle.
So, Future Gohan (who died in 780, while the Future Androids arrived in 767) before he lost his arm had something like 13 years (many of which would be alongside Trunks) to train his abilities to the limit so he could beat the Future Androids, and a ton of untapped potential. Even if we discount the 4 years between 763 and 767 in which he'd have small amps and training partners like Future Piccolo and (to a lesser extent) Future Goku, he'd still 100% be stronger than his kid self.
Edit: Trunks was born 2.5 years from Frieza's death, and Androids arrive about half a year after his birth. Trunks is 17 before he left, which is 3 years after Gohan's death, which took place a year after he lost his arm. So it's about 12.5, but same difference. The guy had more potential than Gohan, who was only 10 in the Android Saga.
Keep in mind, it's not technically proven that he was even a Super Saiyan in the last battle, but the fact that he survived the encounter, dreads another confrontation, states he's more powerful now, and is shocked when 17 reveals his true power suggests this is the case. Otherwise, he'd just have got 50x stronger and confronted them immediately (which he potentially did in the last battle).
It's not like Future Android 17 could even hit him with Super Saiyan/sub-Super Saiyan levels of power without base Future Gohan dying, or that Future Gohan could sense his ki. Future Gohan obviously fought him as a Super Saiyan, lost and got his arm lopped off like the adaptation shows.
Additionally, the Androids don't seem to say anything about it. They'd certainly note at least the blonde spiky hair and glowing aura, especially if Vegeta didn't have Super Saiyan yet like the Super manga implies. Hell, they even don't really know of the form in the present timeline (which is very similar to Cell's timeline, who saw Future Trunks and possibly Super Saiyan Goku), and are very surprised when Vegeta and Trunks change back. IIRC, it's only Cell who was programmed with knowledge of it.
Edit: Even Gero didn't know in the present after it was slightly altered. So only Cell, who's from another timeline, has confirmed knowledge.
Why is this relevant?
Raged amped Gohan in the Namek Saga, at the very least, scales enough to First Form Frieza that he's a hindrance to his Second Form, and his Post-Zenkai is more powerful. Future Gohan should above this level of power after a decade, and there's a 99% chance that he fought the less than half power 17 while he was a Super Saiyan.
So, there we have it. Future Gohan from the battle where he got his arm lopped off is 50x more powerful than First Form Frieza, and is less than half as strong as the Androids.
As I said, the actual translation of Future Bulma's statement is that Trunks' strength isn't that different from Future Gohan when he died, which is repeated almost verbatim in the film. So, Future Trunks scales to a stronger form of Future Gohan, and we don't have to have these debates if this is accepted.
Gohan in the Frieza Saga could only scuff Second Form Frieza initially (who was supressed, but using way more power than his First Form) and heavily surprised Vegeta after he could fight almost on par with First Form Frieza, but his power after a Zenkai jumped to such an extent where Vegeta thought the outcome of a battle between the Z-Fighters and Frieza was looking more promising, despite his full power blast doing nothing to an off-guard Frieza. He then proceeds to make Third Form Frieza struggle with a rage amped attack, who confirms he got an amp. In fact, it's their ever-increasing abilities that makes Frieza skip to his strongest form.
The Saiyans by this point have also abused Zenkai enough that it just gave small amps, so it's very likely he's settled around this power level.
Now, for Future Gohan, whose timeline only diverted a year after the events of the Namek Saga.
It's confirmed that the last time Future Gohan fought Future Android 17 was a year ago, and he says he used less than half his power in that battle. They strongly imply this is the battle where he lost his arm, and we see in all media (including the Super manga that's canon to the original manga) that Future Gohan as a kid retains his arm. And he's grown stronger since that battle.
So, Future Gohan (who died in 780, while the Future Androids arrived in 767) before he lost his arm had something like 13 years (many of which would be alongside Trunks) to train his abilities to the limit so he could beat the Future Androids, and a ton of untapped potential. Even if we discount the 4 years between 763 and 767 in which he'd have small amps and training partners like Future Piccolo and (to a lesser extent) Future Goku, he'd still 100% be stronger than his kid self.
Edit: Trunks was born 2.5 years from Frieza's death, and Androids arrive about half a year after his birth. Trunks is 17 before he left, which is 3 years after Gohan's death, which took place a year after he lost his arm. So it's about 12.5, but same difference. The guy had more potential than Gohan, who was only 10 in the Android Saga.
Keep in mind, it's not technically proven that he was even a Super Saiyan in the last battle, but the fact that he survived the encounter, dreads another confrontation, states he's more powerful now, and is shocked when 17 reveals his true power suggests this is the case. Otherwise, he'd just have got 50x stronger and confronted them immediately (which he potentially did in the last battle).
It's not like Future Android 17 could even hit him with Super Saiyan/sub-Super Saiyan levels of power without base Future Gohan dying, or that Future Gohan could sense his ki. Future Gohan obviously fought him as a Super Saiyan, lost and got his arm lopped off like the adaptation shows.
Additionally, the Androids don't seem to say anything about it. They'd certainly note at least the blonde spiky hair and glowing aura, especially if Vegeta didn't have Super Saiyan yet like the Super manga implies. Hell, they even don't really know of the form in the present timeline (which is very similar to Cell's timeline, who saw Future Trunks and possibly Super Saiyan Goku), and are very surprised when Vegeta and Trunks change back. IIRC, it's only Cell who was programmed with knowledge of it.
Edit: Even Gero didn't know in the present after it was slightly altered. So only Cell, who's from another timeline, has confirmed knowledge.
Why is this relevant?
Raged amped Gohan in the Namek Saga, at the very least, scales enough to First Form Frieza that he's a hindrance to his Second Form, and his Post-Zenkai is more powerful. Future Gohan should above this level of power after a decade, and there's a 99% chance that he fought the less than half power 17 while he was a Super Saiyan.
So, there we have it. Future Gohan from the battle where he got his arm lopped off is 50x more powerful than First Form Frieza, and is less than half as strong as the Androids.
As I said, the actual translation of Future Bulma's statement is that Trunks' strength isn't that different from Future Gohan when he died, which is repeated almost verbatim in the film. So, Future Trunks scales to a stronger form of Future Gohan, and we don't have to have these debates if this is accepted.
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