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Dragon Ball Z Manga Power Scaling

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The_Legendary_Vin said:
not only that, but it was outclassed by a mere 2x increase from SSJ on all factors, being SSJ2
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The 2 times SSJ2 statement is not accepted either, and nothing in story even say it's times two. If anything, SSJ2 is far above two times SSJ, as there's no way that w times SSJ Gohan's level is enough to stomp Super Perfect Cell. In fact, if that would be the case, then just SSJ Gohan would be > Super Perfect Cell, as 50% SSJ2 Gohan defeated him
 
Gilad_Hyperstar said:
The 2 times SSJ2 statement is not accepted either, and nothing in story even say it's times two. If anything, SSJ2 is far above two times SSJ, as there's no way that w times SSJ Gohan's level is enough to stomp Super Perfect Cell. In fact, if that would be the case, then just SSJ Gohan would be > Super Perfect Cell, as 50% SSJ2 Gohan defeated him
Click to expand...

<_<

So sure, let's argue with the OFFICIAL material, sometimes I don't get this wiki
 
I have to ask again, why can't we downscale Goku and Ginyu from Frieza's AP?

Goku with KKx10 has a higher power level than Frieza so they should downscale
 
ByAsura said:
'There is no way' in and of itself is headcanon.

As I said, Toriyama confirmed it in an interview.

Could have, which relies on headcanon.

I still don't see why it would be included. Buu is the one destroying the planets and the one who's feared, not Bibidi.

And the first thing he did after that was toy with Goku and Vegeta.

We see scorched, blackened planets with dead people in the scan. Clearly he didn't blow up these worlds completely.

Bruh, he was dormant when Bibidi pulled him out (according to Toriyama), so they'd have interacted.

You said he could just seal him in another dimension. I'm saying that doesn't make sense in context.

The operative word is also. We don't actually see it. At best, it's a strong possibility.
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Sorry for not replying to you for 300 years.
Bibidi would be included because kid buu would not be a threat to the universe if he couldn't reach other planets, but with bibidi's influence, he would become a threat meaning it's thanks to bibidi so he'd get credit. But buu is actually a threat to the universe without bibidi.
Actually, in that same interview you sent, toriyama says buu had been terrorizing the universe way before bibidi ever awakened him, this means buu was a threat to the universe by himself further supporting him being able to travel across interstellar distances.
I didn't say he could seal him in another dimension, when did I ever say that?
It is a very very strong possibility, let me just go over the points again.
Kid buu was terrorizing the universe by himself and killing planets and life forms.
Bibidi merely awakened him from his hibernation and Buu went on another rampage and performed the feat.
Bibidi found buu extremely uncontrollable and decided to seal him even after he became fat and kinder.
There is no evidence of bibidi having methods of being able to transport buu and all are either extremely unlikely or head canon.
The manga implies buu performed the feat single handedly without bibidi's help.
From this, I conclude that the most likely event is that buu went out of control and performed the feat single handedly by flying to all his destinations.
ByAsura said:
As of now, all of these characters are scaled to Frieza's very casual Supernova in his first form amplified by the Super Saiyan multiplier.

Gohan in the Frieza Saga could only scuff Second Form Frieza initially (who was supressed, but using way more power than his First Form) and heavily surprised Vegeta after he could fight almost on par with First Form Frieza, but his power after a Zenkai jumped to such an extent where Vegeta thought the outcome of a battle between the Z-Fighters and Frieza was looking more promising, despite his full power blast doing nothing to an off-guard Frieza. He then proceeds to make Third Form Frieza struggle with a rage amped attack, who confirms he got an amp. In fact, it's their ever-increasing abilities that makes Frieza skip to his strongest form.

The Saiyans by this point have also abused Zenkai enough that it just gave small amps, so it's very likely he's settled around this power level.

Now, for Future Gohan, whose timeline only diverted a year after the events of the Namek Saga.

It's confirmed that the last time Future Gohan fought Future Android 17 was a year ago, and he says he used less than half his power in that battle. They strongly imply this is the battle where he lost his arm, and we see in all media (including the Super manga that's canon to the original manga) that Future Gohan as a kid retains his arm. And he's grown stronger since that battle.

So, Future Gohan (who died in 780, while the Future Androids arrived in 767) before he lost his arm had something like 13 years (many of which would be alongside Trunks) to train his abilities to the limit so he could beat the Future Androids, and a ton of untapped potential. Even if we discount the 4 years between 763 and 767 in which he'd have small amps and training partners like Future Piccolo and (to a lesser extent) Future Goku, he'd still 100% be stronger than his kid self.

Edit: Trunks was born 2.5 years from Frieza's death, and Androids arrive about half a year after his birth. Trunks is 17 before he left, which is 3 years after Gohan's death, which took place a year after he lost his arm. So it's about 12.5, but same difference. The guy had more potential than Gohan, who was only 10 in the Android Saga.

Keep in mind, it's not technically proven that he was even a Super Saiyan in the last battle, but the fact that he survived the encounter, dreads another confrontation, states he's more powerful now, and is shocked when 17 reveals his true power suggests this is the case. Otherwise, he'd just have got 50x stronger and confronted them immediately (which he potentially did in the last battle).

It's not like Future Android 17 could even hit him with Super Saiyan/sub-Super Saiyan levels of power without base Future Gohan dying, or that Future Gohan could sense his ki. Future Gohan obviously fought him as a Super Saiyan, lost and got his arm lopped off like the adaptation shows.

Additionally, the Androids don't seem to say anything about it. They'd certainly note at least the blonde spiky hair and glowing aura, especially if Vegeta didn't have Super Saiyan yet like the Super manga implies. Hell, they even don't really know of the form in the present timeline (which is very similar to Cell's timeline, who saw Future Trunks and possibly Super Saiyan Goku), and are very surprised when Vegeta and Trunks change back. IIRC, it's only Cell who was programmed with knowledge of it.

Edit: Even Gero didn't know in the present after it was slightly altered. So only Cell, who's from another timeline, has confirmed knowledge.

Why is this relevant?

Raged amped Gohan in the Namek Saga, at the very least, scales enough to First Form Frieza that he's a hindrance to his Second Form, and his Post-Zenkai is more powerful. Future Gohan should above this level of power after a decade, and there's a 99% chance that he fought the less than half power 17 while he was a Super Saiyan.

So, there we have it. Future Gohan from the battle where he got his arm lopped off is 50x more powerful than First Form Frieza, and is less than half as strong as the Androids.

As I said, the actual translation of Future Bulma's statement is that Trunks' strength isn't that different from Future Gohan when he died, which is repeated almost verbatim in the film. So, Future Trunks scales to a stronger form of Future Gohan, and we don't have to have these debates if this is accepted.
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I agree. About your earlier point, no, yardrat goku absolutely does not scale to the androids, only present Goku (not future goku) scales to the full power present androids who vegeta scales to. That was very hard to understand though.
Vizer04 said:
It seems that 3rd Grade multiplies the power of a SSJ ten times, we can use this to upgrade characters stronger than Trunks (SSJ Goku and SSJ Gohan during the Cell Games)
Click to expand...
We need a whole CRT to get this accepted and I'm like 99% sure it won't be.
The_Legendary_Vin said:
not only that, but it was outclassed by a mere 2x increase from SSJ on all factors, being SSJ2
Click to expand...
SSJ2 being a 2x amp is blatantly false.
Vizer04 said:
I have to ask again, why can't we downscale Goku and Ginyu from Frieza's AP?

Goku with KKx10 has a higher power level than Frieza so they should downscale
Click to expand...
We don't know if kk10x Goku is actually stronger than freeza or not since we have no clue if power levels are linear at that section or not.
 
Vizer04 said:
Goku thought that he could defeat 3rd Form Frieza with KKx10
Click to expand...
He, in fact, thought quite the opposite.
The_Legendary_Vin said:
So we're using the source books for one form, but rejecting another source book? how tf does that work?
Click to expand...
Guide books are not used if they contradict the source material. SSJ2 being a 2x multiplier would mean super perfect cell would be as strong as regular SSJ Gohan, the same dude who was washed by a non serious regular perfect cell.
 
FluffyCreatureZ said:
He, in fact, thought quite the opposite.

Guide books are not used if they contradict the source material. SSJ2 being a 2x multiplier would mean super perfect cell would be as strong as regular SSJ Gohan, the same dude who was washed by a non serious regular perfect cell.
Click to expand...
I'm still trying to figure out the logic here...
 
I disagree with both multipliers. They're stated once, and don't have any backing. We only used the Super Saiyan multiplier eventually because I showed that it appeared in multiple canon sources and was heavily consistent with the manga.
FluffyCreatureZ said:
Bibidi would be included because kid buu would not be a threat to the universe if he couldn't reach other planets, but with bibidi's influence, he would become a threat meaning it's thanks to bibidi so he'd get credit. But buu is actually a threat to the universe without bibidi.
Click to expand...
I still don't get your logic. Are getaway drivers considered bank robbers in and of themself?
FluffyCreatureZ said:
Actually, in that same interview you sent, toriyama says buu had been terrorizing the universe way before bibidi ever awakened him, this means buu was a threat to the universe by himself further supporting him being able to travel across interstellar distances.
Click to expand...
No it does not. It says
  • He cycled between rampages and long hibernation.
It's pretty blatant he did travel between solar systems here (not the universe like you claim) to gleam evil off aliens, but this is over potentially billions of years. I could easily see someone like Frieza, who's capable of traveling to Alpha Centauri in less 1.6 days by these ratings, doing this. Let alone Kid Buu, who's on par with Super Saiyan 3 Goku after his base form alone eclipsed Frieza.
FluffyCreatureZ said:
I didn't say he could seal him in another dimension, when did I ever say that?
Click to expand...
Sorry, I read destination as dimension. But that's actually a far worse argument, if anything.
FluffyCreatureZ said:
I agree. About your earlier point, no, yardrat goku absolutely does not scale to the androids, only present Goku (not future goku) scales to the full power present androids who vegeta scales to. That was very hard to understand though.
Click to expand...
Look at the profiles. He's already got a + in the Yaradrat key. I understand it's adjunct to the Android Saga, but it probably shouldn't.

At least Star level as a Super Saiyan (Matched Frieza's full power and ultimately defeated him) | At least Small Star level, At least Star level+ as a Super Saiyan (Much stronger than he was previously, easily blocked Trunks' slashes with his finger before becoming stronger for the confrontation with the androids, should be comparable to SSJ Vegeta)

The actual reason why it's in the Android key according to the scaling blog is because Yaradrat Goku exceeded Trunks' expectations, which was right after Future Bulma said he could have beat both Androids. But that'd make no sense in order for your previous logic to work.
 
That doesn't make sense because Cell has his own version of the form, and SS2 Gohan one-shot it despite his Super Saiyan form being far inferior to even a supressed Cell.
 
StekFence said:
Didn’t he just have a zenkai, and regen?
Click to expand...
Zenkai doesn't put your stamina at full, and His regen Is extremely taxing, (It's the same type as Nail and Piccolo exhibit, which lowers his strength every time he regenerates, which is offset normally by the effects of Saiyan Power)
 
Even though Cell regained his abilities entirely and became even more powerful, why would stamina stuff even matter?

Cell broke his arm at his previous level with one blast, and then Gohan unleashed his full strength to one-shot this Cell and overpower a Kamehameha that was overpowering him.

What you're saying now isn't relevant to those factors.
 
ByAsura said:
Even though Cell regained his abilities entirely and became even more powerful, why would stamina stuff even matter?

Gohan took on a version of Cell that's far more powerful than any of his previous states and broke his arm with one blast, and then unleashed his full strength to one-shot a Kamehameha that was overpowering him.

What your saying now isn't relevant to those factors.
Click to expand...
Yet he also had energy from Goku's encouragement, a massive rage boost, and also the combined attacks of the other Z fighters as well
 
Why would Goku's encouragement give him more ki? That makes no sense (at least until the penultimate episode of Dragon Ball Super) and isn't stated.

As for the rage boost, that's not stated either. It's stated that Gohan is holding back. Even the pep talk in the Buu Saga explicitly says its his own power reserves, and the chapter guide confirms that Super Saiyan 2 itself is his true power that was unlocked by anger.

All that happens is Vegeta hits Cell in his base form. He was kind of distracted, but I don't see why his Kamehameha would get weaker, and he still had the time to recognise that he was being overpowered. Even attacks that are disconnected from characters don't lose their strength.
 
Vizer04 said:
He's uncertain
Click to expand...
He's saying he can't beat freeza's third form, even if we use 10x goku's power level it's gonna be 900000 which is canonically weaker than freeza's 1000000 power level in his second form. But that's only if this section of PL is linear which we don't know.
ByAsura said:
I disagree with both multipliers. They're stated once, and don't have any backing. We only used the Super Saiyan multiplier eventually because I showed that it appeared in multiple canon sources and was heavily consistent with the manga.

I still don't get your logic. Are getaway drivers considered bank robbers in and of themself?

No it does not. It says
  • He cycled between rampages and long hibernation.
It's pretty blatant he did travel between solar systems here (not the universe like you claim) to gleam evil off aliens, but this is over potentially billions of years. I could easily see someone like Frieza, who's capable of traveling to Alpha Centauri in less 1.6 days by these ratings, doing this. Let alone Kid Buu, who's on par with Super Saiyan 3 Goku after his base form alone eclipsed Frieza.

Sorry, I read destination as dimension. But that's actually a far worse argument, if anything.

Look at the profiles. He's already got a + in the Yaradrat key. I understand it's adjunct to the Android Saga, but it probably shouldn't.

At least Star level as a Super Saiyan (Matched Frieza's full power and ultimately defeated him) | At least Small Star level, At least Star level+ as a Super Saiyan (Much stronger than he was previously, easily blocked Trunks' slashes with his finger before becoming stronger for the confrontation with the androids, should be comparable to SSJ Vegeta)

The actual reason why it's in the Android key according to the scaling blog is because Yaradrat Goku exceeded Trunks' expectations, which was right after Future Bulma said he could have beat both Androids. But that'd make no sense in order for your previous logic to work.
Click to expand...
If they are affiliated with the bank robbers then absolutely, they get treated with full involvement in the robbery. Unless of course they were some random cab who was threatened but this doesn't apply to bibidi.
I was paraphrasing, what I meant by the statement is that he was indeed travelling between solar systems and terrorizing planets. I highly doubt it's over billions of years, toriyama did state that buu was doing a long hibernation between his rampages, but if it was taking him that long to do anything then that would contradict him being a relevant threat to the universe (As in life in the universe not the whole thing). This supports kid buu travelling to all his destinations without bibidi's help along with the other evidence. Point is, kid buu was already doing what he did when he performed that feat way before bibidi ever could've existed to help him.
Explain.
No that makes no sense I agree. The scaling this revision is using is that yardrat SSJ Goku is comparable to Trunks who is still weaker than future gohan before dying to the androids and future gohan gets clapped by less than half of the future androids power androids power. In this case, future Goku would be ateast on par with the future androids and the present androids and present Goku would be comparable to each other byt far stronger than their future selfs.
 
FluffyCreatureZ said:
If they are affiliated with the bank robbers then absolutely, they get treated with full involvement in the robbery. Unless of course they were some random cab who was threatened but this doesn't apply to bibidi.
Click to expand...
Of course they're charged as aiding the robbery, but I've only ever seen them mentioned separately.
FluffyCreatureZ said:
I highly doubt it's over billions of years, toriyama did state that buu was doing a long hibernation between his rampages, but if it was taking him that long to do anything then that would contradict him being a relevant threat to the universe (As in life in the universe not the whole thing). This supports kid buu travelling to all his destinations without bibidi's help along with the other evidence. Point is, kid buu was already doing what he did when he performed that feat way before bibidi ever could've existed to help him.
Click to expand...
This brings up something we talked about earlier. When is Kid Buu stated to be a threat to the universe before he gets Instantaneous Movement?

If he actually is, it renders your statement and the vague interview you're trying to push completely obsolete.
FluffyCreatureZ said:
Explain.
Click to expand...
Your argument was that instead of sealing him, Babidi could dump him anywhere.

Where, in the entire cosmos, would Babidi dump Fat Buu?
 
Spinoirr said:
IMG_20220113_125025.jpg

Someone needs to calc the shockwave speed for the speed of the god tiers of the super manga (remember earth in the super manga is at the edge of the universe) I can get the Viz scan for that
Click to expand...
Question, why we never used the shockwaves to find the speed for DBS Anime characters?
 
FluffyCreatureZ said:
He's saying he can't beat freeza's third form, even if we use 10x goku's power level it's gonna be 900000 which is canonically weaker than freeza's 1000000 power level in his second form. But that's only if this section of PL is linear which we don't know.
Click to expand...
PL are linear in this time of the story, i thought we already discussed that on another thread.

Also, you are ignoring the fact that Goku could possibly use a KKx20 which would increase his power to 1,800,000
 
What do you think that we should do here, ByAsura?
 
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