Dragon Ball Z Manga Power Scaling

[Stefano4444]

Scouters transmitting signals across interstellar distances is a good point, but it feels like an outlier kind of. I'll just remain neutral and see what others thing.

To be honest i'm not even sure if we can scale the message sending speed to Ki signature detection speed.

They may work differently.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

To be honest i'm not even sure if we can scale the message sending speed to Ki signature detection speed.

They may work differently.

Why should we assume as such if we don't have any information regarding that?

Even with real life phones, both the scanning and the messaging travels at the same speed (the speed of light), so it's more likely to assume they'd be the same here too

 

[Damage3245]

Why should we assume as such if we don't have any information regarding that?

I see no reason to assume they work the same way. The power-scanning feature and the message-sending feature aren't implied to be linked at all.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

I see no reason to assume they work the same way. The power-scanning feature and the message-sending feature aren't implied to be linked at all.

Scanners and messaging apps in real life work in the same speed (both send their signals at the speed of light), so why assume differently with nothing to say otherwise?

 

[Damage3245]

Scanners and messaging apps in real life work in the same speed (both send their signals at the speed of light), so why assume differently with nothing to say otherwise?

Because the former has something to do with an actual limiting concept in speed, while in Dragon Ball it has nothing to do with anything of the sort? Seems like a no-brainer to me.

I'm not assuming differently; I'm just not seeing any reason to assume they're the same for the sake of upgrades.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Because the former has something to do with an actual limiting concept in speed, while in Dragon Ball it has nothing to do with anything of the sort? Seems like a no-brainer to me.

They're the same speed because both send light signals. They work with the same way (photons, though at different wavelengths and frequencies), so the speeds are the same

Same goes with the scouters (scanning), and messaging

I'm not assuming differently; I'm just not seeing any reason to assume they're the same for the sake of upgrades.

I'm assuming they're the same because it's the same in real life as well, so it's probably works in a similar way in there too

 

[Damage3245]

I'm assuming they're the same because it's the same in real life as well, so it's probably works in a similar way in there too

So do you want to limit it down to Lightspeed, since that's how it works in real life?

Otherwise I don't know what principle you're basing it off of to say that they must be the same speed.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

So do you want to limit it down to Lightspeed, since that's how it works in real life?

You're missing the point. The reason the messaging and scanning have the same speed is because they work in the same way.

The same thing applies to the scouters as well. Their messaging and scanning should work in the same way as well relative to each other, so they would also have the same speed

Otherwise I don't know what principle you're basing it off of to say that they must be the same speed.

Because the method of how they work is the same, so it'd have the same speed as the other one

 

[ByAsura]

How is Frieza reacting to the Dragon Balls as they scatter?

All he does is get dejected after they're some distance into the sky.

Even the argument that they moved in that time is kind of flimsy because they're already looking upwards at the dragon.

It's more blatant in the anime, if anything.

 

[Damage3245]

You're missing the point. The reason the messaging and scanning have the same speed is because they work in the same way.
The same thing applies to the scouters as well. Their messaging and scanning should work in the same way as well relative to each other, so they would also have the same speed

And you know they work the same way in Dragon Ball because.... ?

Because the method of how they work is the same, so it'd have the same speed as the other one

Why?

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

And you know they work the same way in Dragon Ball because.... ?

Because we know it works the same way in real life too? And using Occam's razor, the solution that makes the least assumptions is that it works in a similar way in DB as well.

If you want to say it works differently in DB somehow despite it not being the case in reality, then explain how is it different and why it shouldn't scale

Why?

Same method = same information traveling = same speed. Unless you prove they work differently obviously

 

[Damage3245]

Because we know it works the same way in real life too? And using Occam's razor, the solution that makes the least assumptions is that it works in a similar way in DB as well.
If you want to say it works differently in DB somehow despite it not being the case in reality, then explain how is it different and why it shouldn't scale

I already stated how. Real life works through the speed of light. You're trying to assume some new physical property of the DB Universe that would make them the same speed.

It doesn't have to work that way and I see no reason to assume that it does. I believe the true Occam's Razor here is not to make assumptions on how they work and not treat the same through additional assumptions.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

I already stated how. Real life works through the speed of light. You're trying to assume some new physical property of the DB Universe that would make them the same speed.

You didn't actually explained. You said it doesn't worked that way but didn't elaborated on it further

I don't assume anything. Since both work the same way in real life, there's no reason why they would act in a completely different way in DB

 

[AKM sama]

Anyway, as I mentioned earlier, this blog is near-unreadable. Is somebody willing to rework it so that it looks something like this instead. Note that the starting sections look much cleaner and provide better readability.

The heavy use of arrows need to be removed. We already have a speed blog so anything related to DBZ speed should preferably also removed. And the characters going in the megafoe range towards the end should also be removed.

 

[Damage3245]

You didn't actually explained. You said it doesn't worked that way but didn't elaborated on it further

I don't assume anything. Since both work the same way in real life, there's no reason why they would act in a completely different way in DB

Let's agree to disagree then.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Let's agree to disagree then.

Fine by me, but I still didn't see the explaination. If I am wrong, I would like to know why

 

[Vietthai96]

Anyway, as I mentioned earlier, this blog is near-unreadable. Is somebody willing to rework it so that it looks something like this instead. Note that the starting sections look much cleaner and provide better readability.

No offend but your sandbox also look pretty hard in the eyes

 

[Damage3245]

Fine by me, but I still didn't see the explaination. If I am wrong, I would like to know why

I don't know how else to explain it to you.

You say that scanning/transmitting works as X speed in real life because of the speed of light which is a principle they must obey.

And you're saying that if transmitting works at Y speed in Dragon Ball then scanning must work at Y speed too because.... it just does. That's not an explanation in my books. You can't just say "It's like that in real life, so for no good reason it must be kinda similar."

That's where you're throwing Occam's Razor away and making unnecessary assumptions.

 

[AKM sama]

The same thing applies to the scouters as well. Their messaging and scanning should work in the same way as well relative to each other, so they would also have the same speed

The reason being this is an assumption not supported in the show. I don't think this discussion should continue, it is pretty pointless.

No offend but your sandbox also look pretty hard in the eyes

I only changed the top part. I think it looks better because the numbers are bolded, they stand out, and they are not drowned by repeated arrows. I am open to more suggestions though.

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

How is Frieza reacting to the Dragon Balls as they scatter?

All he does is get dejected after they're some distance into the sky.

Even the argument that they moved in that time is kind of flimsy because they're already looking upwards at the dragon.

It's more blatant in the anime, if anything.

The fact that they are watching them fly away means they scale, if the DBs move at the calculated speed then they'd move out of sight from the planet in a fraction of a second.

 

[Vietthai96]

I only changed the top part. I think it looks better because the numbers are bolded, they stand out, and they are not drowned by repeated arrows. I am open to more suggestions though.

If i'm not wrong, the use of > is for stronger, and the higher the amount of > mean the stronger the character is compare to the bold number right??

 

[ByAsura]

The fact that they are watching them fly away means they scale, if the DBs move at the calculated speed then they'd move out of sight from the planet in a fraction of a second.

They’re not watching them as they move across interstellar distances. In the manga, they may not even be looking at them properly. It’s not like it’s directly stated that they’re directly tracking the balls as they scatter/move.

You can look at the direction of a bullet. That doesn’t mean you can follow it and scale to its movements.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

There's a feat of the scouter reading Goku's power against Vegeta while using Kaioken times 3 and then exploding.

And it is happens instantly even when Goku and Vegeta fight in the other side of the world, sincd Bulma was sensing it with the scouter on real time, so that is likely a FTL feat as well for the scouters

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

They’re not watching them as they move across interstellar distances. In the manga, they may not even be looking at them properly. It’s not like it’s directly stated that they’re directly tracking the balls as they scatter/move.

Goku and Frieza can't see interstellar distances, but they are able to observe the Dragonballs as they dissapear from Namek

You can look at the direction of a bullet. That doesn’t mean you can follow it and scale to its movements.

Goku and Frieza directly saw the Dragon Balls though, so that is incorrect

 

[ByAsura]

Goku and Frieza can't see interstellar distances, but they are able to observe the Dragonballs as they dissapear from Namek

How wouldn’t a normal human be able to see the fact that they’ve left? Literally all you need to do is notice they’re there one minute, and not the next.

Goku and Frieza directly saw the Dragon Balls though, so that is incorrect

They notice they’re gone after scattering. Doesn’t take a superhuman to do that.

You could also argue the glow radiated by them scattering is what they notice, since it’d reach them at the speed of light.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

How wouldn’t a normal human be able to see the fact that they’ve left? Literally all you need to do is notice they’re there one minute, and not the next.

Because they saw it in the split second between launching and dissapearing? They looked directly at the balls the entire time

They notice they’re gone after scattering. Doesn’t take a superhuman to do that.

You could also argue the glow radiated by them scattering is what they notice, since it’d reach them at the speed of light.

Or that they just looked at the balls leaving. No need to assume so much when they literally watch the balls dissapear

 

[ByAsura]

Because they saw it in the split second between launching and dissapearing? They looked directly at the balls the entire time

They look at the balls before they scatter, though. They don’t follow as they’re scattering.

Or that they just looked at the balls leaving. No need to assume so much when they literally watch the balls dissapear

It’s not really much of an assumption that they saw the glow of the balls. It’s actually just as much of an assumption to suggest their eyes kept up when the balls scattered.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

They look at the balls before they scatter, though. They don’t follow as they’re scattering.

The dragon balls don't scatter. They all move to Earth together

It’s not really much of an assumption that they saw the glow of the balls. It’s actually just as much of an assumption to suggest their eyes kept up when the balls scattered.

They were looking right at the balls as they were leaving. And they definitely noticed them leaving in the split seconds they could still see them

Also, another thing is that Purunga (and the Dragon Balls too), are only as strong (and as fast, since in most cases a stronger character = faster character) as the one who made them, which is Guru. That would mean that the speed that the dragon balls traveled to would be less than Goku's and Frieza as Guru is weaker than both of them

Purunga was also able to teleport Vegeta to Earth against his will, which he wouldn't be able to do if he would be weaker than Vegeta, as Shenron wasn't able to stop the Saiyans from coming to Earth in the Saiyan Saga since that was beyond his power

 

[Damage3245]

Also, another thing is that Purunga (and the Dragon Balls too), are only as strong (and as fast, since in most cases a stronger character = faster character) as the one who made them, which is Guru. That would mean that the speed that the dragon balls traveled to would be less than Goku's and Frieza as Guru is weaker than both of them

You're conflating the power of the wishes with the speed of the dragon balls here. There is nothing saying that the Dragon Balls can only travel as fast as Guru - the practically immobile Namekian - can fly.

This is the biggest stretch I've seen in a CRT for a while to try and get upgrades for characters.

 

[ByAsura]

The dragon balls don't scatter. They all move to Earth together

You’re right. I was thinking of the anime.

They were looking right at the balls as they were leaving. And they definitely noticed them leaving in the split seconds they could still see them

They were looking at the Dragon anyway, and the balls group in the same direction. Noting really suggests they were following it perfectly.

Also, another thing is that Purunga (and the Dragon Balls too), are only as strong (and as fast, since in most cases a stronger character = faster character) as the one who made them, which is Guru. That would mean that the speed that the dragon balls traveled to would be less than Goku's and Frieza as Guru is weaker than both of them

Not necessarily. Kami and Guru don’t have the power to affect events from light-years away, while the Namekians can’t create Earth.

They’re comparable for some things, but the balls obviously do things they can’t. For example, Dende could just resurrect everyone at any time from light-years away if he had their power.

Purunga was also able to teleport Vegeta to Earth against his will, which he wouldn't be able to do if he would be weaker than Vegeta, as Shenron wasn't able to stop the Saiyans from coming to Earth in the Saiyan Saga

Given Piccolo’s statement after fusing with Nail (he says his original power is stronger), I could see that, but I also kind of doubt my own logic since he couldn’t make Dragon Balls after fusing with Kami.

Edit: I was misremembering slightly. Nail suggests the Nameless Namekian is potentially stronger than First Form Frieza.

Sorry I don’t have a larger scan. I’m not on my computer.

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

How wouldn’t a normal human be able to see the fact that they’ve left? Literally all you need to do is notice they’re there one minute, and not the next.

They notice they’re gone after scattering. Doesn’t take a superhuman to do that.

You could also argue the glow radiated by them scattering is what they notice, since it’d reach them at the speed of light.

The problem is not them knowing the balls left, but it is the fact that they are watching them leave in the first place, it would be impossible for the glow to reach them at light speed if the balls are moving that fast, if they are still able to see them after the balls started moving, that proves they scale or else the dragon balls would be instantly out of sight for them.

 

[Damage3245]

it would be impossible for the glow to reach them at light speed if the balls are moving that fast

Have you considered the possibility that the balls weren't that fast then?

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

Have you considered the possibility that the balls weren't that fast then?

I guess the dragon balls never reached earth then.

 

[ByAsura]

On another note, do we have a confirmed/calculated speed for the Earth-based Dragon Balls?

The problem is not them knowing the balls left, but it is the fact that they are watching them leave in the first place, it would be impossible for the glow to reach them at light speed if the balls are moving that fast, if they are still able to see them after the balls started moving,

It wouldn’t be impossible for the glow radiating off them to be percieved. Also, they’re not necessarily watching them, just looking at the Dragon before the balls go to Earth.

that proves they scale or else the dragon balls would be instantly out of sight for them.

Why wouldn’t that happen?

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

On another note, do we have a confirmed/calculated speed for the Earth-based Dragon Balls?

It wouldn’t be impossible for the glow radiating off them to be percieved. Also, they’re not necessarily watching them, just looking at the Dragon before the balls go to Earth.

Why wouldn’t that happen?

No I don't have one for the earth balls but I'll make one for the namek balls.
It would be because they are watching the glow real time, but it would be impossible if the glow is moving at light speed because of the speed the balls are moving at, very later on will they be able to see the glow which would be too weak to see by then. They are actually watching them move, if they are able to percieve them flying away at all then they scale.
The dragon balls are not instantly out of sight for them.

 

[ByAsura]

It would be because they are watching the glow real time, but it would be impossible if the glow is moving at light speed because of the speed the balls are moving at, very later on will they be able to see the glow which would be too weak to see by then. They are actually watching them move, if they are able to percieve them flying away at all then they scale.

I’m not talking about the glow around the balls itself, I’m talking about the visible light reaching the characters.

The dragon balls are not instantly out of sight for them.

Cool. Proof? All I can see is the Dragon Balls moving away and them only reacting after they’re far gone.

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

I’m not talking about the glow around the balls itself, I’m talking about the visible light reaching the characters.

Cool. Proof? All I can see is the Dragon Balls moving away and them only reacting after they’re far gone.

What do you mean? Like I said they wouldn't be able to see the dragon balls at all if the light they're emitting moves at light speed.
They wouldn't be able to see the dragon balls far gone if they couldn't react to their speed because of how light works.
http://zjcdn.********.me/store/manga/214/27-130.0/compressed/kdragon_ball_z_v011-164.jpg?token=ffc56405401712aa5146b9effce0dcd420b2b1cc&ttl=1641744000
In the second panel, freeza is watching the dragon bas flying away, and they were looking at them moving in the previous panel.

 

[ByAsura]

Emitted light still moves at light-speed. It’s still moving, just well after the balls would travel because they can’t keep up.

Like I said, they’re not necessarily looking in different positions.

Also, what Frieza is looking at is a glow in the sky far after they’d moved. No evidence of reaction even if the radiated light isn’t light-speed.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

You’re right. I was thinking of the anime.

They were looking at the Dragon anyway, and the balls group in the same direction. Noting really suggests they were following it perfectly.

They were. In the scan where it's shown we can see the Dragon Balls before they dissapear as they moved to Earth, so they did watched them

Not necessarily. Kami and Guru don’t have the power to affect events from light-years away, while the Namekians can’t create Earth.

The Namekian Dragonballs literally recreated the Earth in the Buu Saga when the Earth got destroyed by Kid Buu

They’re comparable for some things, but the balls obviously do things they can’t. For example, Dende could just resurrect everyone at any time from light-years away if he had their power.

Still, the Balls only have so much power (and thus also speed since stronger = faster in most cases) as their creator, as we know Kami couldn't wish the Saiyans away as they were too strong for him to do that

Same goes with Purunga with his own limitations. However, Purunga is stronger and thus can do more things, such as wishing Base Vegeta away against his will to Earth

That doesn't contradict anything since while Guru was old and sick, he obviously made Purunga when he was much more healthy

Given Piccolo’s statement after fusing with Nail (he says his original power is stronger), I could see that, but I also kind of doubt my own logic since he couldn’t make Dragon Balls after fusing with Kami.

Kami fused into Piccolo, who is a warrior Namekian like Nail, rather than a Dragon clan member like Dende, so that's why he can't make Dragon Balls

The original Nameless Namekian couldn't make Dragon Balls either as he needed to expell the evil (King Piccolo) out of him, making them split and weakening them greatly

 

[Damage3245]

This is like trying to scale someone to a jet for watching it take off in front of them.