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Dragon Ball Z Manga Power Scaling
- Thread starter FluffyCreatureZ
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That's not what I am saying. Even if he fights 1v1, he must have thought that he'd win against 1 but be so depowered as a result that the other would have killed him right after. Which means, while he was confident that he grew strong enough to beat 17, he was still prepared for the worst outcome. This interpretation doesn't contradict either one of the statements.
Gilad_Hyperstar
He/Him- 11,438
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That still doesn't mean he surpassed half of 17's power. He could grow strong enough to surpass the power 17 showed before, so Gohan would think he can overpower him, but as 17 stated he used "less than half of his full power", and given that less than half means below half, we cannot assume based on that alone that Gohan surpassed 50% of Android 17's actual full power
For example: Imagine 17 used 40% of his power against Gohan last time, but Gohan surpassed that and became equal to 45% of 17's full power. That would mean Gohan would think he'd win against 17 based on what he witnessed last time, but also still be below 50% of 17's full power.
Basically: Android 17's power against Gohan < Gohan (at his death) < 50% Android 17
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True. Therefore, we should not assume anything. Although, when someone says something like "I didn't even use half of my power", they mean that they used close to half. Otherwise they'd simply say one-third or 25% or something like that. But you're correct, we shouldn't assume anything so I don't think this is valid grounds to claim that full power Android 17 is twice of Gohan's max and the information we have is not concrete enough to be used in the scaling one way or the other.
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I'm aware I missed out on a lot, but I should perhaps state my thoughts even if it's mostly repetition. But I need more time to think before I type.
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- Thread starter
- #806
Gohan told trunks that he'd be the only hope against the androids in plural, therefore meaning that he couldn't even think he can beat one. This supports my interpretation more than you.
Vizer04
He/Him- 5,290
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Just a minor correction but i think Ultimate Gohan should scale to 10.53 Megafoe like Buutenks does:
1. He's far stronger than Super Buu who is already 5.26 Megafoe
2. Initially he fought decently well against Buutenks
3. He even tanked a Makankōsappō (one of Piccolo's strongest techniques)
4. And he continued fighting even after tanking that attack
5. And even after Buu used the Super Ghost Kamikaze Attack...
6. He continued fighting
In my opinion that guarantees upscaling from Buutenks to an extent
1. He's far stronger than Super Buu who is already 5.26 Megafoe
2. Initially he fought decently well against Buutenks
3. He even tanked a Makankōsappō (one of Piccolo's strongest techniques)
4. And he continued fighting even after tanking that attack
5. And even after Buu used the Super Ghost Kamikaze Attack...
6. He continued fighting
In my opinion that guarantees upscaling from Buutenks to an extent
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- Thread starter
- #808
Regarding this thread. I will try to calc a speed feat to try to get the multiplier thing sorted out. In terms of the scaling, I'm waiting to see what asura man has to say.
All of that is anime only, Gohan got stomped by Buutenks in the manga.
Vizer04
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What is the speed feat you have in mind?
- 8,857
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- Thread starter
- #811
There are 2, Goku and Freeza reacting to the namek dragon balls which reached earth from namek in 2 minutes, and kid buu destroying several hundred planets in a few years.
Stefano4444
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Actually that feat happen before Buu was sealed when he was still under Bibidi.
And if we use the Anime as evidence, they were not travelling on a spaceship as far i'm aware.
Stefano4444
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Depend by how much distance there its between Namek and Earth, the result that you get should be easily Massively FTL+.
Now we don't have any solid evidence about Namek's location, but at the very least we can use Alpha Centauri's distance as the bare minimum, which its 4.13141275e16 meters.
And since the dragon balls reached Earth in less than 5 minutes (since they arrived before Namek exploded) and they arrived in a few panels, a timeframe of 2.5 minutes (half of the time of Namek's time before it explode) aka 150 seconds would be plausible.
4.13141275e16/150 = 2.75427517e14 m/s or 918,727.305c.
- 8,857
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- Thread starter
- #815
I have 2 accurate ways of determining namek's distance. The best rocket taking 4000 years to reach namek and kami's space ship. We have an exact time frame too, we don't need to assume one, it's 2 minutes until the planet explodes as stated by freeza.
Stefano4444
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The fastest human-made object its the Parker Solar Probe which move over 330,000 miles per hour or 147,523.2 m/s (but its a low end since DB's Earth its far more advance than our own).
4000 years are 1.26227704e11 seconds, meaning we get a distance of 1.86215148e16 m, assuming a timeframe of 2 minutes we get 1.5517929e14 m/s, which its equal to 517,622.394c.
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The first one there isn't a useful feat. They don't actually react to the dragon balls midflight.
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You mean when they see the Dragon Balls rise up very slowly in front of them then shoot into the sky? How does that require reaction speed that high when it's happening right in front of them?
It's not like either of them take any action to intercept the Dragon Balls or move out of the way... Frieza just helplessly stares as they fly away. No reacting on his part is involved.
And that's not even getting into the possibility that the balls were accelerating away from him instead of instantly shooting at full speed. If they were accelerating from Namek, then it's even less impressive.
Gilad_Hyperstar
He/Him- 11,438
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Frieza and Goku could see the balls dissapearing as they traveled to Earth. In the manga they just fly away even, not even stopping to rise slowly as they immediately travel to the Earth
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- Thread starter
- #822
No I don't mean that, it's when the dragon balls fly up then immediately split everywhere, but this time they all fly together, they don't accelerate when they do this, they go full speed immediately. Everytime we see the dragon balls split apart they never accelerate.
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I'm not sure. I just know that I'm not in favor of scaling Goku or Frieza based on the Dragon Balls flying to Earth.
Not sure what other proposals are ongoing at the moment.
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I forgot I should have commented in a previous day when I was off work, but now's not the time again. But I was going to voice parts about Oven's post, but then his "Outlier" statement kind of assumes things. But the word "Outlier" implies he's suggesting the initial Relativistic+ feat; thus the Moon level AP and Planetary range is an outlier. And that we should use a different speed feat. But I don't think it has any reason to be considering how far superior Piccolo is compared to Teen Piccolo, who is above Kami, who is above King Piccolo who is far above Master Roshi who also has the same AP and range feat combined with a Sub-Relativistic+ that is just a hair behind Relativistic. High tiers via multiplier stacking has nothing to do with "Outlier" (It be a different story if there was just a random Massively FTL+ speed feat done by a fodder character everyone scales from) but just "Multiplier Stacking".
I don't want to sound like a broken record, and don't have the time to craft entire essays. But the other thing is that Frieza's Relativistic Attack speed feat has no reason to be an "Antifeat" for speed. Frieza was focused on raw power to bust the planet, not like he was in a rush before the enemy attacks. Also, Death Ball is one of Frieza's slowest attacks compared to things like Death Beam. He wasn't actively blitzing anyone with the Death Ball; Bardock clearly saw his Death Ball coming, but of course his raw power was a different story. So the Relativistic attack speed doesn't contradict any Relativistic+ reactions of anybody let alone the upgrades done via Kaioken. Frieza saga Goku being stronger, faster, tougher, than a fully Kaioken Ginyu saga Goku is far too blatant. Then Kaioken multipliers are also amping him another 20x fold. Making anything less than Massively FTL too low at this point.
Parts that not going to enforce are whether or not Super Saiyan multipliers are 50x speed, or also doing the same thing in which we use evidence of base Buu saga being above Shin who is comparable to SSJ Cell saga Goku who is a lot superior to SSJ Frieza saga Goku. And then using the multipliers from there. I still support those though, but I really am fairly exhausted to continue arguing further. But at the very least, the Massively FTL up to > 172.8c, likely 432c should be an absolute minimum to everybody superior to 50% Frieza regardless of what we decide for those aforementioned details.
I don't want to sound like a broken record, and don't have the time to craft entire essays. But the other thing is that Frieza's Relativistic Attack speed feat has no reason to be an "Antifeat" for speed. Frieza was focused on raw power to bust the planet, not like he was in a rush before the enemy attacks. Also, Death Ball is one of Frieza's slowest attacks compared to things like Death Beam. He wasn't actively blitzing anyone with the Death Ball; Bardock clearly saw his Death Ball coming, but of course his raw power was a different story. So the Relativistic attack speed doesn't contradict any Relativistic+ reactions of anybody let alone the upgrades done via Kaioken. Frieza saga Goku being stronger, faster, tougher, than a fully Kaioken Ginyu saga Goku is far too blatant. Then Kaioken multipliers are also amping him another 20x fold. Making anything less than Massively FTL too low at this point.
Parts that not going to enforce are whether or not Super Saiyan multipliers are 50x speed, or also doing the same thing in which we use evidence of base Buu saga being above Shin who is comparable to SSJ Cell saga Goku who is a lot superior to SSJ Frieza saga Goku. And then using the multipliers from there. I still support those though, but I really am fairly exhausted to continue arguing further. But at the very least, the Massively FTL up to > 172.8c, likely 432c should be an absolute minimum to everybody superior to 50% Frieza regardless of what we decide for those aforementioned details.
Stefano4444
He/Him- 6,251
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Speaking of other possible FTL speed feats, what about Namek Saga Base Goku moving so fast that neither Jeice and Burter's scouters could detect Goku's presence until he was already behind them?
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I don't think there is a precedent on the latency of scouters. An even better example would be Goku beating up Recoom, but Jeice and Burter's scouter did not pick up Goku's momentary rise in power level. But we cannot get any quantifiable speed from that.
I'm with Damage, you cannot exactly scale Dragon Balls to anybody. In the manga we see that Freeza looks at the Dragon Balls when it is shining in the sky. It's like looking at a jet airplane from a long distance. It isn't scalable, and this doesn't take into consideration the possible acceleration. Even in the anime, Freeza reacts to the lingering light, long after the dragon balls pick up speed.
As for the Buu feat, the anime version cannot be used for the manga. We do use it as supporting feat for the anime. But in the manga, Buu destroying several planets can be achieved by Babidi taking Buu from planet to planet in his spaceship.
I'm with Damage, you cannot exactly scale Dragon Balls to anybody. In the manga we see that Freeza looks at the Dragon Balls when it is shining in the sky. It's like looking at a jet airplane from a long distance. It isn't scalable, and this doesn't take into consideration the possible acceleration. Even in the anime, Freeza reacts to the lingering light, long after the dragon balls pick up speed.
As for the Buu feat, the anime version cannot be used for the manga. We do use it as supporting feat for the anime. But in the manga, Buu destroying several planets can be achieved by Babidi taking Buu from planet to planet in his spaceship.
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- Thread starter
- #829
I agree, I don't think we have any speed feat for the scouters for Goku to scale to.
I disagree, the dragon ball scattering never ever shows acceleration. In fact it consistently is shown for the dragon balls to suddenly burst and move at full speed immediately.
As for freeza reacting, we see them looking at the dragon balls when they were next to them and when they flew away
This means they are watching them fly away, if they are flying at MFTL+ speeds then the dragon balls would just disappear instantly to the next solar system.
Stefano4444
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Why exactly we can't?
I mean, there are plenty of scenes that show scouters's impressive range of detection, capable to nearly instantly detect Ki signatures even from many kilometers away.
And this without consider the fact that it can send messages from light years at speeds way faster than even the saiyan's spaceships.
Pretty sure we can find a way to quantify the speed.
I mean, the are characters that get their speed because they can move so fast that they can't be tracked by cameras and the human eyes, this shouldn't be that different.
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- Thread starter
- #831
Scouters transmitting signals across interstellar distances is a good point, but it feels like an outlier kind of. I'll just remain neutral and see what others thing.
Vizer04
He/Him- 5,290
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3,778,643,476.2c
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I find myself agreeing with AKM and Damage
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Question, is Kami's ship travelling to jupiter in the manga?
Vizer04
He/Him- 5,290
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It is
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If it is, then isn't it possible to calculate the distance between Earth and Namek by using timeframes? Like compare how long it took Kami's ship to travel from Earth to Jupiter to how long it took it to travel from Earth to Namek.
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- Thread starter
- #838
It is and it is more impressive than the anime's timeframe.
That is precisely what I did. I just need to blog it.
Stefano4444
He/Him- 6,251
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Where did you get that calc?
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