Dragon Ball Z Manga Power Scaling

[ByAsura]

Only could also imply he's not around. So he's not necessarily saying he can't beat them now.

We're we reading the same scan? Also, you're forgetting that's there's 2 androids.

Edit: I got the translations. He says (not at all exactly, but I don't have the effort to do better translations, so here's just summaries) '[Trunks] can't die, [he's] the last one with the potential to beat the androids' and 'now it's your turn to be killed'. Idk, maybe he's extremely confident in destroying one android, but not both, which is consistent with his reaction of being shocked at 17 saying he's more than twice as strong as what he used last time.

Overall, we definitely don't have enough evidence to say that he's still half as strong as 1 android.

These stomp values are perfectly consistent with Gohan's reaction, especially if he's factoring in 2 androids instead of 1.

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

Only could also imply he's not around. So he's not necessarily saying he can't beat them now.

We're we reading the same scan? Also, you're forgetting that's there's 2 androids.

Edit: I'll get translations. Maybe you're reading a different translation in the second panel.

Edit 2: He says something along the lines of 'now it's your turn to be killed'. I'll work on getting the other.

These stomp values are perfectly consistent with Gohan's reaction, especially if he's factoring in 2 androids instead of 1.

Yup, only implies gohan is not around, because he'll be dead. If gohan was confident he could win, he wouldn't say that at all. Gohan won't be fighting both at the same time, he even fought 17 by himself, one at a time, he thinks if he can beat one, he can beat the other.
I'm saying that gohan was bluffing since what he was saying niw doesn't align with what he was saying before.

 

[ByAsura]

I got the other translation, and I don't think he's bluffing, I think he's just extremely confident that he can kill 17. Plus, why would he even try to bluff? It'd be utterly pointless because he's fighting them anyway.

If he's much stronger than 1 android, but weaker than both, it aligns very well with him being so shocked that Android 17's full power is over twice as high.

Either way, it's not enough evidence to suggest Gohan is half as strong as 17 in his current form. He only implies he can't beat the Androids at one point.

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

I got the other translation, and I don't think he's bluffing, I think he's just extremely confident that he can kill 17. Plus, why would he even try to bluff? It'd be utterly pointless because he's fighting them anyway.

If he's much stronger than 1 android, but weaker than both, it aligns very well with him being so shocked that Android 17's full power is over twice as high.

Either way, it's not enough evidence to suggest Gohan is half as strong as 17 in his current form. He only implies he can't beat the Androids at one point.

Okay but still that his statement against 17 is not consistent with what he said to trunks, it's contradictory and both interpretations work.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

I got the other translation, and I don't think he's bluffing, I think he's just extremely confident that he can kill 17. Plus, why would he even try to bluff? It'd be utterly pointless because he's fighting them anyway.

That doesn't mean much. Vegeta was v3ry confident to beat both Frieza and Android 18 and was proven wrong both times

This is especially true since Gohan can't tell how strong 17 actually is

If he's much stronger than 1 android, but weaker than both, it aligns very well with him being so shocked that Android 17's full power is over twice as high.

If anything, Gohan thought he could kill both at once. Only to be horrified that even one Android is well above his level.

Either way, it's not enough evidence to suggest Gohan is half as strong as 17 in his current form. He only implies he can't beat the Androids at one point.

Gohan wasn't stronger than them even back then. Not even against just Android 17

He was less than half of 17's power before, and we can't assume he became so much stronger he'd surpass half of 17's power

 

[ByAsura]

Okay but still that his statement against 17 is not consistent with what he said to trunks, it's contradictory and both interpretations work.

How is it inconsistent? Gohan implied he’d lose against both.

Your argument hinges on the fact that 17 alone is equal to him just at half power. So far, you haven’t really proved it.

That doesn't mean much. Vegeta was v3ry confident to beat both Frieza and Android 18 and was proven wrong both times

Vegeta’s whole character is that he knows his power, but underestimates the opponent. Gohan isn’t Vegeta.

This is especially true since Gohan can't tell how strong 17 actually is

He clearly has an idea of how strong 17 is since he’s shocked at his full strength.

Besides, how does this actually prove you’re point? All we can gather from your statement is that Gohan’s stronger than before and inferior to their full power, which anyone could have told you, if Gohan isn’t reliable.

If anything, Gohan thought he could kill both at once. Only to be horrified that even one Android is well above his level

Because they were always suppressed. Again, what’s your point?

Gohan wasn't stronger than them even back then. Not even against just Android 17

Ok, and? What does it matter if he wasn’t stronger than them 1 year ago?

Also, ‘even’. He’s obviously stronger than what he was back then.

He was less than half of 17's power before, and we can't assume he became so much stronger he'd surpass half of 17's power

Just like the moon thread, we’re not making assumptions based on unknown variables. We simply don’t make the assumption that Gohan is still less than half as strong as the androids because we can’t confirm it.

Saying ‘we shouldn’t assume he’s now that much stronger’ is, in and of itself, an assumption we can’t confirm. All we can confirm is that he’s potentially weaker than both androids at their lower levels, and inferior to 17 at full power.

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

How is it inconsistent? Gohan implied he’d lose against both.

Your argument hinges on the fact that 17 alone is equal to him just at half power. So far, you haven’t really proved it.

Because last time gohan fought 17 as well as this time when he died, he fought 17 by himself. That's why gohan being able to beat one can enable him to beat the other which is why he still thought he stood a chance but wasn't confident.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

How is it inconsistent? Gohan implied he’d lose against both.

Your argument hinges on the fact that 17 alone is equal to him just at half power. So far, you haven’t really proved it.

Vegeta’s whole character is that he knows his power, but underestimates the opponent. Gohan isn’t Vegeta.

He clearly has an idea of how strong 17 is since he’s shocked at his full strength.

No he doesn't. All 17 did is telling him that what he used against Gohan wasn't even half of his full power. That horrified Gohan, realizing too late how wrong he was about them

That doesn't mean 17 used his full power to kill Gohan in their final fight, and Gohan's statement that he became stronger than before still doesn't mean he became stronger than half of the Androids' power

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

Did 17 say he used half power or less than half power? The translation I have says he used exactly half not less.

 

[StrawHatArslan]

Did 17 say he used half power or less than half power? The translation I have says he used exactly half not less.

Less than half his power.

 

[ByAsura]

Because last time gohan fought 17 as well as this time when he died, he fought 17 by himself. That's why gohan being able to beat one can enable him to beat the other which is why he still thought he stood a chance but wasn't confident.

He said Androids when he called Trunks the last hope, not 17. He was very confident in being stronger than 17.

No he doesn't. All 17 did is telling him that what he used against Gohan wasn't even half of his full power. That horrified Gohan, realizing too late how wrong he was about them

Because he realises how strong they are compared to what he thought.

If 17 said he’s 1% stronger, that wouldn’t be very effective now, would it?

That doesn't mean 17 used his full power to kill Gohan in their final fight, and Gohan's statement that he became stronger than before still doesn't mean he became stronger than half of the Androids' power

According to what? And, besides, the argument is that half of his power is equal to Gohan, so it’s really irrelevant if he used his full power, just as long as he used more than half.

I’m not claiming he is, I’m claiming we can’t prove if he did or didn’t, so let’s not just assume.

Did 17 say he used half power or less than half power? The translation I have says he used exactly half not less.

I believe it’s less than half in the raws. I’ll get a translation for you tomorrow.

 

[AKM sama]

Chapter: Trunks: the Story, P9.4-5, P10.1
Context: It’s worth noting that Trunks doesn’t hear this conversation and is unconscious, so he doesn’t sense the fight.
No.17: “Anyway, it’s been a long time, Son Gohan…It’s been about 1 year, right? I’m surprised you managed to survive after taking a beating like that…”
Future Gohan: “This time I’ve trained so that I wouldn’t get beaten. It’s your turn to lose now!”
No.17: “Our turn? …Heh heh heh… Sorry to disappoint you…but I didn’t even use half my power when we fought before.”

 

[ByAsura]

From memory, that’s about what I got from those raws.

Btw, I have every raw chapter, but not the later release with chapter guides. If anyone asks, I can provide panels.

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

Chapter: Trunks: the Story, P9.4-5, P10.1
Context: It’s worth noting that Trunks doesn’t hear this conversation and is unconscious, so he doesn’t sense the fight.
No.17: “Anyway, it’s been a long time, Son Gohan…It’s been about 1 year, right? I’m surprised you managed to survive after taking a beating like that…”
Future Gohan: “This time I’ve trained so that I wouldn’t get beaten. It’s your turn to lose now!”
No.17: “Our turn? …Heh heh heh… Sorry to disappoint you…but I didn’t even use half my power when we fought before.”

Thanks, before I respond again, what did gohan tell trunks after knocking him unconscious from the same source? Just to be consistent.

 

[AKM sama]

Chapter: Trunks: the Story, P5.6
Context: after knocking Trunks out
Gohan: “If you died, then there wouldn’t be any more warriors to save the Earth…You’re the last warrior with the potential to be capable of defeating those androids after a few years…”

 

[ByAsura]

So it still says Androids, plural, and we can’t confirm he’s below 1.

Also, I kind of glanced over this part of AKM’s translation since it’s past mid-night here, but 17 suggests Gohan’s saying both androids will lose.

So either Gohan is lying that he’s capable of killing both (which really makes no sense, because why would he even attempt to lie?), or Toriyama has a faulty memory.

Either way, we can’t confirm Future Gohan is still inferior to half power 17 after a full year of training with Trunks.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

So it still says Androids, plural, and we can’t confirm he’s below 1.

Also, I kind of glanced over this part of AKM’s translation since it’s past mid-night here, but 17 suggests Gohan’s saying both androids will lose.

So either Gohan is lying that he’s capable of killing both (which really makes no sense, because why would he even attempt to lie?), or Toriyama has a faulty memory.

Either way, we can’t confirm Future Gohan is still inferior to half power 17 after a full year of training with Trunks.

Even if that is true, Gohan would probably still be above SSJ Goku on Namek

And Trunks wasn't above any of the Androids, individually and together, so saying that Gohan was stronger than one of them is a lie, especially since 17 kills Gohan by himself while 18 stands there and watch

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

Okay that's good. Now in those raws or whatever, 17 states the he didn't even use 50% against gohan meaning that he used far less. This means gohan who was already not confident in beating the androids (via his statement to trunks and refer below) scales not to a 50% of 17 but much less than that. This means 50% 17 is still above current gohan.
Gohan << less than 50% 17 =< gohan 1 year later < 50% 17 (via gohan not being confident in beating a less than 50% 17)

So either Gohan is lying that he’s capable of killing both (which really makes no sense, because why would he even attempt to lie?), or Toriyama has a faulty memory

Or he's bluffing to challenge the androids who he thinks he can win against 1v1...

 

[AKM sama]

I wouldn't say Gohan not being confident was the issue there. He just wanted to protect Trunks and he was not ready to risk it. He would have taken into account how there are two Androids, and one of them could have easily killed Trunks in a second, if Gohan was busy with another. Gohan could have also taken into account that he might have become strong enough to defeat one of them, albeit not so easily. And it would take a lot out of him to defeat one, but then he might become depowered and the other one could easily kill him.

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

I wouldn't say Gohan not being confident was the issue there. He just wanted to protect Trunks and he was not ready to risk it. He would have taken into account how there are two Androids, and one of them could have easily killed Trunks in a second, if Gohan was busy with another. Gohan could have also taken into account that he might have become strong enough to defeat one of them, albeit not so easily. And it would take a lot out of him to defeat one, but then he might become depowered and the other one could easily kill him.

Yeah that's the issue actually. What Gohan said clearly insinuated that Gohan was going to die in the fight, however gohan still decided to go and believed he somewhat stood a chance, this means he wasn't confident, trunks being out of the fight was irrelevant. This means Gohan was not confident about taking out even one android at less than 50% power and was shocked when he learned 17 is actually more than twice as strong.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Yeah that's the issue actually. What Gohan said clearly insinuated that Gohan was going to die in the fight, however gohan still decided to go and believed he somewhat stood a chance, this means he wasn't confident, trunks being out of the fight was irrelevant. This means Gohan was not confident about taking out even one android at less than 50% power and was shocked when he learned 17 is actually more than twice as strong.

Gohan at the time didn't knew that Android 17 was using less than half of his power. He knew he was likely going to die when he fought the Androids are only as strong as they were showing last time he battled them. The fact that Android 17's full power is actually more than twice as strong makes it even worse for Gohan

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

Gohan at the time didn't knew that Android 17 was using less than half of his power. He knew he was likely going to die when he fought the Androids are only as strong as they were showing last time he battled them. The fact that Android 17's full power is actually more than twice as strong makes it even worse for Gohan

I know. Was I not clear? Gohan thought he'd die against less than half power android, so 50% 17 would be stronger.

 

[AKM sama]

That statement implies Gohan was prepared for the worst outcome. The worst outcome is that he might die. Again, it does not mean he thought he was weaker than 17. He could be stronger and still think that because there were 2 of them and he wasn't confident that he could take out both of them. Maybe by his calculation, he only grew strong enough to win against one at cost of losing a lot of stamina which would allow the other one to finish him off.

He has no reason to lie when he said that he has become strong enough to defeat 17. And that kind of statement would work dangerously if he was really trying to get them to 1v1. It would just make the Androids more alert and eager to fight 2v1.

I don't think these statements are definitive proof of what is being claimed because the other interpretation looks more likely to me.

 

[Antvasima]

ByAsura and AKM:

Thank you for helping out. So what do you think that we should do here?

 

[ByAsura]

Even if that is true, Gohan would probably still be above SSJ Goku on Namek

That depends on if we scale Future Trunks to Yardrat Goku, so I think that's the case.

especially since 17 kills Gohan by himself while 18 stands there and watch

When he's not using less than half his power.

I know. Was I not clear? Gohan thought he'd die against less than half power android, so 50% 17 would be stronger.

Or he's bluffing to challenge the androids who he thinks he can win against 1v1...

Which means he'd be superior to one, no? It's just the same problem. He never said just 1 android would kill him.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

That depends on if we scale Future Trunks to Yardrat Goku, so I think that's the case.

Future Trunks is still >> SSJ Frieza Saga Goku. As Mecha Frieza was confident that he could kill him after witnessing his full power, and Trunks easily destroyed Frieza

When he's not using less than half his power.

There's nothing that says he used any more power to kill Gohan than he used to beat him last time, and no reason to scale Gohan above half his full power

Which means he'd be superior to one, no? It's just the same problem. He never said just 1 android would kill him.

No, not necessarily. He maybe thought that he could defeat one of the Androids after his training and then Trunks will eventually finish what he started and kill the other one, but that didn't worked out as even if Gohan was superior to the power the Androids showed before, which we can't be sure he is, that still doesn't mean he scales to half of their full power, because Android 17 said he used less than half of his power, with emphasis on "less"

 

[ByAsura]

Future Trunks is still >> SSJ Frieza Saga Goku. As Mecha Frieza was confident that he could kill him after witnessing his full power, and Trunks easily destroyed Frieza

He wasn't at full power.

There's nothing that says he used any more power to kill Gohan than he used to beat him last time, and no reason to scale Gohan above half his full power

Why wouldn't he use more power if he just tells Gohan that he was holding back a lot and proceeds to kill him?

You guys are making these arguments in order to change our profiles, so it's actually up to you to prove that he's still using the same amount of power.

He maybe thought that he could defeat one of the Androids after his training and then Trunks will eventually finish what he started and kill the other one, but that didn't worked out as even if Gohan was superior to the power the Androids showed before, which we can't be sure he is, that still doesn't mean he scales to half of their full power

Trunks purposely isn't there, so your logic doesn't make sense.

because Android 17 said he used less than half of his power, with emphasis on "less"

Less can mean 45% or a small amp. So, no, since we don't know anything, the emphasis isn't really on less.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

He wasn't at full power.

Frieza doesn't have ki control so he can't suppress himself more than his forms can. Besides, even if you say that he was just 50% of his power as Mecha Frieza, even that was enough to overpower SSJ Goku according to Frieza, and he saw Goku's full power before

Why wouldn't he use more power if he just tells Gohan that he was holding back a lot and proceeds to kill him?

Because he doesn't need to? Besides, Android 17 before he said this to Gohan took a full power attack from SSJ Gohan and came relatively unscathed, with only his clothes being harmed

You guys are making these arguments in order to change our profiles, so it's actually up to you to prove that he's still using the same amount of power.

Actually, the half power statement is already accepted and on the profiles, and since you want to debunk it, it's actually you who needs to debunk it

Trunks purposely isn't there, so your logic doesn't make sense.

I meant way later. Like years later. He knew he was going to die so he hoped Trunks would eventually be strong enough to kill them

Less can mean 45% or a small amp. So, no, since we don't know anything, the emphasis isn't really on less.

Less means it's not half. It's below half, and even if we do accept that Gohan got stronger, that still doesn't mean he became stronger than half of their full power, so we can't simply assume he did just because he got stronger

 

[ByAsura]

Frieza doesn't have ki control so he can't suppress himself more than his forms can.

He used 75%, 50% and less against Goku, so that's inaccurate.

Because he doesn't need to?

According to you.

Besides, Android 17 before he said this to Gohan took a full power attack from SSJ Gohan and came relatively unscathed, with only his clothes being harmed

Fair, but it's also one attack. Vegeta was mostly unscathed after being hit by an attack almost twice as strong as him (I might have to use that for scaling in the future, on this note), and he doesn't have infinite stamina.

It's also stated in the Piccolo fight and when Goku transforms after Yardrat that their power output heightens during actual combat.

Actually, the half power statement is already accepted and on the profiles, and since you want to debunk it, it's actually you who needs to debunk it

What's accepted is that he fought them at some point at half power. So, no.

I meant way later. Like years later. He knew he was going to die so he hoped Trunks would eventually be strong enough to kill them

I guess you could see it that way.

Less means it's not half. It's below half, and even if we do accept that Gohan got stronger, that still doesn't mean he became stronger than half of their full power, so we can't simply assume he did just because he got stronger

Yes, I know.

We can't assume anything, which is the point. We don't know where he'd stand if he actually fought them.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

He used 75%, 50% and less against Goku, so that's inaccurate.

What? Even if Mecha Frieza was only at 50% of his full power, it was still enough for Frieza to confidently say he could kill SSJ Goku on Namek. Besides, Post-Yardrat Goku killed Mecha Frieza in the future, so even if what we saw is 50% Mecha Frieza, Goku would still be stronger than 100% Mecha Frieza as unlike at
Trunks, Goku would let Frieza to power up for a fair fight

Fair, but it's also one attack. Vegeta was mostly unscathed after being hit by an attack almost twice as strong as him (I might have to use that for scaling in the future, on this note), and he doesn't have infinite stamina.

Vegeta harmed Android 18 way more than Gohan did to 17, even to the point of Vegeta fighting nearly on par with 18, and her resorting to outlasting him

It's also stated in the Piccolo fight and when Goku transforms after Yardrat that their power output heightens during actual combat.

What does that have to do with this?

What's accepted is that he fought them at some point at half power. So, no.

The statement is literally accepted in the current scaling. So it's you who need to debunk it, not the other way around

We can't assume anything, which is the point. We don't know where he'd stand if he actually fought them.

Yet you're assuming he surpassed half of the Androids' power simply because he got stronger than before? Because that is not true. Just because he surpassed what they showed doesn't mean he's now > 50% Android 17, as 17 used less than half of his full power against him.

Also, even when Gohan caught 17 off guard and attacked him, he got up unscathed, and there's no reason to assume he used any more power than last time, especially when he wasn't fighting at the time

 

[ByAsura]

What? Even if Mecha Frieza was only at 50% of his full power, it was still enough for Frieza to confidently say he could kill SSJ Goku on Namek.

He never said it was with that level of power. His plan was to kill his friends, and then slaughter Goku when he arrived on Earth.

Besides, Post-Yardrat Goku killed Mecha Frieza in the future, so even if what we saw is 50% Mecha Frieza, Goku would still be stronger than 100% Mecha Frieza as unlike at
Trunks, Goku would let Frieza to power up for a fair fight

Fair point.

Vegeta harmed Android 18 way more than Gohan did to 17, even to the point of Vegeta fighting nearly on par with 18, and her resorting to outlasting him

Vegeta did no actual harm to 18, despite hitting her with his strongest attack.

What does that have to do with this?

They’re stronger in actual combat.

The statement is literally accepted in the current scaling. So it's you who need to debunk it, not the other way around

Can you show me where it’s accepted?

Yet you're assuming he surpassed half of the Androids' power simply because he got stronger than before? Because that is not true. Just because he surpassed what they showed doesn't mean he's now > 50% Android 17, as 17 used less than half of his full power against him.

For the last time, we can’t prove it, so I’m not assuming. You’re making stuff up jus to for scaling.

Also, even when Gohan caught 17 off guard and attacked him, he got up unscathed, and there's no reason to assume he used any more power than last time, especially when he wasn't fighting at the time

I’m pretty sure ‘caught off guard’ doesn’t apply to cyborgs with infinite energy reactors.

There’s every reason to assume he fought with more power.

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

That statement implies Gohan was prepared for the worst outcome. The worst outcome is that he might die. Again, it does not mean he thought he was weaker than 17. He could be stronger and still think that because there were 2 of them and he wasn't confident that he could take out both of them. Maybe by his calculation, he only grew strong enough to win against one at cost of losing a lot of stamina which would allow the other one to finish him off.

He has no reason to lie when he said that he has become strong enough to defeat 17. And that kind of statement would work dangerously if he was really trying to get them to 1v1. It would just make the Androids more alert and eager to fight 2v1.

I don't think these statements are definitive proof of what is being claimed because the other interpretation looks more likely to me.

He was prepared to fight them 1v1 not 2v1, he already fought them before 1v1 and the fight he died he also died in a 1v1, in fact, the androids have never ever fought together, they actually go out of their way to do the opposite. 18 v Vegeta, 17 v Piccolo, 17 v cell even trunks v 18, 17 was just watching from far away. So Gohan was not confident in beating a less than half power 17 which means he's weaker than half power 17.

Which means he'd be superior to one, no? It's just the same problem. He never said just 1 android would kill him.

No, read above.

 

[ByAsura]

No, read above

I get what you’re saying, but being confident in beating someone at less than half power really doesn’t prove your point. It just proves that he’s stronger than less than half of their power.

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

I get what you’re saying, but being confident in beating someone at less than half power really doesn’t prove your point. It just proves that he’s stronger than less than half of their power.

It does. When 17 says "I didn't even use half power" implies that he's using much less than half power. If gohan isn't even confident in beating this "much less than half power" then that means 17's half power is still greater which is consistent with gohan doodoo-ing his pants. This means that future 17 is 2x greater than SSJ Gohan.

 

[ByAsura]

It doesn’t imply he’s using much less, it confirms he’s using less.

Gohan never says he’s not confident in fighting 17. All that’s implied is that he can’t defeat both androids.

 

[ByAsura]

I’m honestly giving up, especially if all the profiles already scale like Gilad said.

I just don’t have the effort.

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

It doesn’t imply he’s using much less, it confirms he’s using less.

Gohan never says he’s not confident in fighting 17. All that’s implied is that he can’t defeat both androids.

It does. That's how I interpret it, I don't know about you. The way 17 says it comes off like "You're so weak I didn't even use 50% of my power!" It's not like he'll be using 49.9% right? More like 40% or 30%.
And yes gohan wasn't confident, him saying what he said to trunks means he thought he was going to die, but still went anyway and said what he said to 17 means he thought he stood a chance.
Get this. Gohan told trunks that he's the last hope to beat the androids in plural meaning that he wasn't even confident he can beat one which I already showed that he was going to fight one of them at a time. This proves that he was at least comparable to less than half of 17 but was not confident meaning he's below 50% 17.

I’m honestly giving up, especially if all the profiles already scale like Gilad said.

I just don’t have the effort.

Wait don't leave before I convince you. Wait please stay I need staff here.

 

[ByAsura]

These are the same arguments but somehow far worse. I’m definitely ending my involvement here.

 

[Antvasima]

@ByAsura

I would appreciate if you would help out with giving a verdict regarding what we should do here before you leave.

 

[ByAsura]

As I said, I’m neutral on speed. It’s wacky, and I don’t really have the effort to go over it right now.

I do have more small stuff on other scaling not covered by the OP that I could share tomorrow.