Dragon Ball Z Manga Power Scaling

[ByAsura]

They were. In the scan where it's shown we can see the Dragon Balls before they dissapear as they moved to Earth, so they did watched them

They were already looking, and reacted only after the Dragon Balls had left. No evidence of reaction.

The Namekian Dragonballs literally recreated the Earth in the Buu Saga when the Earth got destroyed by Kid Buu

My point was that the Dragon Balls can do things their creators can’t. I’m not claiming the Namekian DBs can’t create the Earth, which I even mentioned in that post as an example of them doing something the Namekians themselves don’t do.

Still, the Balls only have so much power (and thus also speed since stronger = faster in most cases) as their creator, as we know Kami couldn't wish the Saiyans away as they were too strong for him to do that

Not necessarily when you’re speaking of magical objects that can teleport to begin with. Also, the fact that Kami even tried suggests their powers are different.

That doesn't contradict anything since while Guru was old and sick, he obviously made Purunga when he was much more healthy

I don’t recall mentioning Guru. I do, on the other hand, remember mentioning Dende, who’s perfectly healthy and made the Dragon Balls when he was a child. If anything, Buu Saga Dende probably has power greater than the Shenron he made 7 years ago.

Kami fused into Piccolo, who is a warrior Namekian like Nail, rather than a Dragon clan member like Dende, so that's why he can't make Dragon Balls

I know and it’s my point. Guru even in his prime isn’t a warrior. He makes the Dragon Balls for Frieza to caress them.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I'm not sure if using Scouters to track ship movement is the best example either. Normals can detect the movement of Mach 8 jets in the sky from a distance; because ang size perception makes it look like the plane is a lot smaller traveling a smaller distance under the same timeframe; but in reality the jets are going a lot faster than that. And the jet would be like so fast, the human eye can't track the movement if the plane was a lot closer. Scouters likely have the same limitation/weakness

 

[ByAsura]

When do scouters sense the power levels of people on moving ships?

The best I remember is Vegeta sensing the Ginyu Force as they approached Namek, potentially meaning they’re going slower than light.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

They were already looking, and reacted only after the Dragon Balls had left. No evidence of reaction.

They were looking at the Dragon Balls as they were leaving

My point was that the Dragon Balls can do things their creators can’t. I’m not claiming the Namekian DBs can’t create the Earth, which I even mentioned in that post as an example of them doing something the Namekians themselves don’t do.

Sure, but still, the power (and thus the speed) of the balls are limited by the power of their creators, something that was mentioned several times. Meaning that the Dragon Balls can't be faster or stronger than their creator

Not necessarily when you’re speaking of magical objects that can teleport to begin with. Also, the fact that Kami even tried suggests their powers are different.

They literally didn't teleport. They can teleport others with wishes (and even then it's Shenron/Purunga doing it), but the balls traveled the distance to Earth

I don’t recall mentioning Guru. I do, on the other hand, remember mentioning Dende, who’s perfectly healthy and made the Dragon Balls when he was a child. If anything, Buu Saga Dende probably has power greater than the Shenron he made 7 years ago.

I know and it’s my point. Guru even in his prime isn’t a warrior. He makes the Dragon Balls for Frieza to caress them.

Guru however was still able to create Dragon Balls strong enough to teleport Vegeta against his will to Earth, something that is impossible to do if Vegeta was stronger, as Kami would've done the same thing in the Saiyan Saga if that would've worked

That would mean that Prime Guru > Vegeta, which is not that far fetched if you consider Namekian fusion, especially since Guru was the elder namekian

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

I'm not sure if using Scouters to track ship movement is the best example either. Normals can detect the movement of Mach 8 jets in the sky from a distance; because ang size perception makes it look like the plane is a lot smaller traveling a smaller distance under the same timeframe; but in reality the jets are going a lot faster than that. And the jet would be like so fast, the human eye can't track the movement if the plane was a lot closer. Scouters likely have the same limitation/weakness

Scouters can easily keep up with powers and speeds close to the user's at very short distance, and since even Piccolo with PL of 329 is about half the speed of light, that says a lot

Besides, Bulma's scouter was keeping up with Goku and Vegeta's powers at real time

 

[ByAsura]

They were looking at the Dragon Balls as they were leaving

I still only see them already looking in the direction of the balls and not reacting until after they’ve started moving in both the anime and manga, not keeping up or tracking them in real time.

Sure, but still, the power (and thus the speed) of the balls are limited by the power of their creators, something that was mentioned several times. Meaning that the Dragon Balls can't be faster or stronger than their creator

Noting really suggests that specific limitation applies to the inactive Dragon Balls moving to Earth when they can consistently bypass that aspect.

They literally didn't teleport. They can teleport others with wishes (and even then it's Shenron/Purunga doing it), but the balls traveled the distance to Earth

You’re missing the point. They have fast travel abilities Guru doesn’t.

Guru however was still able to create Dragon Balls strong enough to teleport Vegeta against his will to Earth, something that is impossible to do if Vegeta was stronger, as Kami would've done the same thing in the Saiyan Saga if that would've worked

Ok, and? This isn’t even the point, Kid Dende’s range is.

That would mean that Prime Guru > Vegeta, which is not that far fetched if you consider Namekian fusion, especially since Guru was the elder namekian

I can see that. It’s just that we probably should scale him and Nameless Namekian.

 

[Vizer04]

The best I remember is Vegeta sensing the Ginyu Force as they approached Namek, potentially meaning they’re going slower than light.

He didn't use a scouter for that though

 

[Vizer04]

Where did you get that calc?

Assuming that scouters can send messages faster than the Saiyan Space-ships

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

Emitted light still moves at light-speed. It’s still moving, just well after the balls would travel because they can’t keep up.

Like I said, they’re not necessarily looking in different positions.

Also, what Frieza is looking at is a glow in the sky far after they’d moved. No evidence of reaction even if the radiated light isn’t light-speed.

Correct and that is why freeza seeing the dragon balls when they are in range of being seen proves he scales, light does not have any time to move from where the balls are to where freeza is.
Freeza literally moved his hand up from a low position to a higher one while saying ah ah while watching the balls fly away.
The radiated light is light speed which is why watching them move while still being in range is a feat.

This is like trying to scale someone to a jet for watching it take off in front of them.

This is a fallacy, that analogy doesn't work because the plane doesn't go from 0 to full speed instantly.

Also who renamed the thread?

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

I still only see them looking in the direction of the balls and not reacting until after they’ve started moving in both the anime and manga, not keeping up or tracking them in real time.

Noting really suggests that specific limitation applies to the inactive Dragon Balls moving to Earth when they can consistently bypass that aspect.

It applies to everything. And consistently? When did the Dragon Balls far exceeded their users in capabilities? If anything they're slower, as Kid Goku got the four star ball as it traveled away, but Kami is much faster than him

You’re missing the point. They have fast travel abilities Guru doesn’t.

Guru is old and sick. Of course he can't travel now. I'm talking about Prime Guru who made the balls

Ok, and? This isn’t even the point, Kid Dende’s range is.

This has nothing to do with range. Kami couldn't wish the Saiyans away because it was beyond Shenron's (and therefore his) capabilities. However, Purunga has no problem teleprting Vegeta to Earth. And Dende only made Dragon Balls in the Cell Saga so that's irrelevant

I can see that. It’s just that we probably should scale him and Nameless Namekian.

I would agree that Nameless Namekian and Prime Guru should scale above Vegeta, as well as Goku and Frieza since Guru is weaker than both of them

 

[Stefano4444]

Scouters can easily keep up with powers and speeds close to the user's at very short distance, and since even Piccolo with PL of 329 is about half the speed of light, that says a lot

Besides, Bulma's scouter was keeping up with Goku and Vegeta's powers at real time

To be honest i think at the very least we can assume that scouters can detect Ki signatures at the speed of light, similar to radars and other receivers in real life.

 

[Vizer04]

To be honest i think at the very least we can assume that scouters can detect Ki signatures at the speed of light, similar to radars and other receivers in real life.

I agree with this

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:FluffyCreatureZ/Kid_Buu_Speed_Feat
I have done a calculation. Can you review it damage man?
Regarding what akmman said, it's wrong, bibidi ever only sealed buu after he performed the feat when bibidi realized he was too strong. Only after he sealed him did he start manually taking him to the next destination.
Shin also never refers to both bibidi and Buu as the ones performing the feat, but only as Buu.

Also can someone provide me this scan in imgur? The auto block filter prevents me from putting it in the blog.

 

[EmilioRory10]

the scan in imgur

 

[Damage3245]

Please tell me those aren't the scans people are still using to read Dragon Ball. Here is the Viz version of the page.

I'm not sure how it is a valid feat for Kid Buu though, seeing as the manga doesn't imply that he flew personally to every star system instead of being transported to them.

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

Please tell me those aren't the scans people are still using to read Dragon Ball. Here is the Viz version of the page.

Sorry, these scan are the only ones that I can actually find.

I'm not sure how it is a valid feat for Kid Buu though, seeing as the manga doesn't imply that he flew personally to every star system instead of being transported to them.

It implies exactly that. Buu is a bloodlusted monster stated in that literal same scan. There ain't no way he rode a space ship with bibidi, and bibidi transporting him himself is head canon. Not only did the manga specifically say that buu did it himself with no mention of bibidi helping him, but it also stated that bibidi couldn't control buu which is why he sealed him. This is a valid feat, please evaluate it and thank you.

 

[Damage3245]

It implies exactly that. Buu is a bloodlusted monster stated in that literal same scan. There ain't no way he rode a space ship with bibidi, and bibidi transporting him himself is head canon. Not only did the manga specifically say that buu did it himself with no mention of bibidi helping him, but it also stated that bibidi couldn't control buu which is why he sealed him. This is a valid feat, please evaluate it and thank you.

What is stopping Bibidi from sealing him, transporting him to a new world then unsealing him?

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

What is stopping Bibidi from sealing him, transporting him to a new world then unsealing him?

Regarding what akmman said, it's wrong, bibidi ever only sealed buu after he performed the feat when bibidi realized he was too strong. Only after he sealed him did he start manually taking him to the next destination.
Shin also never refers to both bibidi and Buu as the ones performing the feat, but only as Buu.

 

[ByAsura]

He didn't use a scouter for that though

I know. Which is why I'm even asking.

Correct and that is why freeza seeing the dragon balls when they are in range of being seen proves he scales, light does not have any time to move from where the balls are to where freeza is.

Light would, if they're seeing it after the event.

It's slower for sure, but would still take place in a tiny fraction of a second.

Freeza literally moved his hand up from a low position to a higher one while saying ah ah while watching the balls fly away.

After they'd gone a considerable distance. Which is my point, he'd reacted well after, not really to the balls themselves as they moved at superluminal speeds. It's not like he reacted to them.

The radiated light is light speed which is why watching them move while still being in range is a feat.

That proves this isn't a feat, if anything. They're seeing it at light-speed.

This is a fallacy, that analogy doesn't work because the plane doesn't go from 0 to full speed instantly.

Doesn't really matter. You can still see a plane at full speed in motion.

It applies to everything.

It clearly doesn't.

Guru is old and sick. Of course he can't travel now. I'm talking about Prime Guru who made the balls

And consistently? When did the Dragon Balls far exceeded their users in capabilities? If anything they're slower, as Kid Goku got the four star ball as it traveled away, but Kami is much faster than him

None of the Dragon Ball creators so far have been able to teleport people across interstellar distances or resurrect the dead (en masse or not). They always have to use the Dragon Balls to do it. Clearly, it's capable of doing stuff they can't do.

This has nothing to do with range. Kami couldn't wish the Saiyans away because it was beyond Shenron's (and therefore his) capabilities. However, Purunga has no problem teleprting Vegeta to Earth. And Dende only made Dragon Balls in the Cell Saga so that's irrelevant

I'm not talking about power here, it's a different part of the speed argument. You're misinterpreting my entire argument here.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

None of the Dragon Ball creators so far have been able to teleport people across interstellar distances or resurrect the dead (en masse or not). They always have to use the Dragon Balls to do it. Clearly, it's capable of doing stuff they can't do.

I'm not talking about power here, it's a different part of the speed argument. You're misinterpreting my entire argument here.

You keep missing the point by stating the obvious. Of course I don't argue Kami or Guru can create planets or resurrect massuve groups of people, as they obviously can't do that

I'm talking purely about the speed and power of the balls. And ONLY that. You keep ignoring this point, and keep mentioning abilities that don't even matter to what I'm saying.

You can't deny that Shenron (and by extention Kami) couldn't teleport Nappa and Vegeta away from Earth, as it was beyond their power to do so, however, Purunga was able to teleport Vegeta away from Namek and to Earth against his will, which only works if Purunga > Vegeta, which also means Prime Guru > Vegeta.

The Dragon Balls' travel speed is also slower than their creator, proven by Kid Goku being able to catch the 4 star ball as it was flying away, but Kami is far faster than the Goku who caught the Dragon Ball

That would also mean the speed of Namek's Dragon Balls is slower than that of Prime Guru (emphasis on Prime since now Guru is old and sick so he obviously isn't fast now), meaning Goku and Frieza scale to that

 

[Damage3245]

You can't deny that Shenron (and by extention Kami) couldn't teleport Nappa and Vegeta away from Earth, as it was beyond their power to do so, however, Purunga was able to teleport Vegeta away from Namek and to Earth against his will, which only works if Purunga > Vegeta, which also means Prime Guru > Vegeta.

Did they try to teleport Vegeta and Nappa with the dragon balls, or did they try and kill them with the dragon balls?

 

[ByAsura]

You keep missing the point by stating the obvious. Of course I don't argue Kami or Guru can create planets or resurrect massuve groups of people, as they obviously can't do that

I'm talking purely about the speed and power of the balls. And ONLY that. You keep ignoring this point, and keep mentioning abilities that don't even matter to what I'm saying.

I'm saying they have methods of travel and abilities the characters don't. It's not ignoring the obvious, it's you missing the point.

You can't deny that Shenron (and by extention Kami) couldn't teleport Nappa and Vegeta away from Earth, as it was beyond their power to do so, however, Purunga was able to teleport Vegeta away from Namek and to Earth against his will, which only works if Purunga > Vegeta, which also means Prime Guru > Vegeta.

I already agreed to this when you first brought it up. My point here has literally nothing to do with Vegeta. It's that Dende's at least as strong as when he made the Dragon Balls in the Cell Saga, but it can do things he can't.

Again, you're missing the point.

The Dragon Balls' travel speed is also slower than their creator, proven by Kid Goku being able to catch the 4 star ball as it was flying away, but Kami is far faster than the Goku who caught the Dragon Ball

That would also mean the speed of Namek's Dragon Balls is slower than that of Prime Guru (emphasis on Prime since now Guru is old and sick so he obviously isn't fast now), meaning Goku and Frieza scale to that

These aren't the Dragon Balls scattering, these are the Balls moving to a completely different planet in a large grouping.

Dragon Balls scatter in random directions. The Namekian Balls followed their creator.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Did they try to teleport Vegeta and Nappa with the dragon balls, or did they try and kill them with the dragon balls?

Neither, because they couldn't. The Dragon Balls could've been easily collected and used to wish the Saiyans away from Earth or teleport them outside of their pods to get of them, but that was beyond Shenron's power

 

[Damage3245]

Neither, because they couldn't. The Dragon Balls could've been easily collected and used to wish the Saiyans away from Earth or teleport them outside of their pods to get of them, but that was beyond Shenron's power

Do you have a scan for this?

 

[ByAsura]

Oolong asks if wishes like defeating the Saiyans would work.

However, Porunga can't unwillingly teleport Goku later, so we already know they can't unwillingly TP people stronger than them.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Do you have a scan for this?

Well there's no scan I found, but if Kami could do it, he would've done it instead of trusting his plan for King Kai to train Goku in his planet

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Oolong asks if wishes like defeating the Saiyans would work.

However, Porunga can't unwillingly teleport Goku later, so we already know they can't unwillingly TP people stronger than them.

However Purunga teleported Frieza Saga Vegeta, who was stronger than that Goku

 

[Damage3245]

Well there's no scan I found, but if Kami could do it, he would've done it instead of trusting his plan for King Kai to train Goku in his planet

Characters not always doing the most logical things possible is extremely common in fiction.

It might not have occured to them to simply teleport the Saiyans away if their focus was on beating/killing the Saiyans somehow.

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

I know. Which is why I'm even asking.

Light would, if they're seeing it after the event.

It's slower for sure, but would still take place in a tiny fraction of a second.

After they'd gone a considerable distance. Which is my point, he'd reacted well after, not really to the balls themselves as they moved at superluminal speeds. It's not like he reacted to them.

That proves this isn't a feat, if anything. They're seeing it at light-speed.

Doesn't really matter. You can still see a plane at full speed in motion.

It clearly doesn't.

None of the Dragon Ball creators so far have been able to teleport people across interstellar distances or resurrect the dead (en masse or not). They always have to use the Dragon Balls to do it. Clearly, it's capable of doing stuff they can't do.

I'm not talking about power here, it's a different part of the speed argument. You're misinterpreting my entire argument here.

Freeza was looking at the balls while they were flying up next to him, and then was watching them fly away and raised his hand when the balls were still visible in the sky. Due to the speed they were flying at, they would be out of view near instantly meaning that frieza couldn't have performed the feat without scaling to that speed, so frieza would at least downscale from the value if there's no evidence for him reacting to it fully.
A jet plane flyibg at full speed in front of you would blitz you.

 

[ByAsura]

However Purunga teleported Frieza Saga Vegeta, who was stronger than that Goku

Ok, like I said, I'm not arguing against this. I never did.

Freeza was looking at the balls while they were flying up next to him, and then was watching them fly away and raised his hand when the balls were still visible in the sky.

After they were leaving. Also, they're very bright, so they'd definitely be visible at a high altitude. They're so high up we can't actually see them.

Due to the speed they were flying at, they would be out of view near instantly meaning that frieza couldn't have performed the feat without scaling to that speed, so frieza would at least downscale from the value if there's no evidence for him reacting to it fully.

Yes he could. It's called time and relative distance. The fact is, the balls were already leaving.

A jet plane flyibg at full speed in front of you would blitz you.

That's if it's right in front of you, not already far into the sky.

 

[Damage3245]

I don't want to see this topic go on for a whole other page.

I think ByAsura and myself have firmly rejected this "feat" and explained why it is invalid. It preferably shouldn't be discussed anymore unless there is some new evidence or other staff members think that it is a valid feat.

 

[ByAsura]

I could see this being a huge upgrade, but people can see rockets and meteors entering and exiting the atmosphere.

I think this could very well constitute a speed upgrade for Frieza since the balls had well under 2 minutes to travel to Earth, but I just don't see him directly scaling to the feat given the lack of solid evidence.

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

Ok, like I said, I'm not arguing against this. I never did.

After they were leaving. Also, they're very bright, so they'd definitely be visible at a high altitude. They're so high up we can't actually see them.

Yes he could. It's called time and relative distance. The fact is, the balls were already leaving.

That's if it's right in front of you, not already far into the sky.

Yes after they were leaving, but they were still visible in the sky where freeza could still track them leaving, that would be impossible if freeza doesn't at least partially scale.
Also they aee not that bright, they are much closer than you think.
The balls were moving when they were directly in front of Goku and freeza, and they were tracking them until they got out of view.

I could see this being a huge upgrade, but people can see rockets and meteors entering and exiting the atmosphere.

I think this could very well constitute a speed upgrade for Frieza since the balls had well under 2 minutes to travel to Earth, but I just don't see him directly scaling to the feat given the lack of solid evidence.

Maybe they can downscale.

I don't want to see this topic go on for a whole other page.

I think ByAsura and myself have firmly rejected this "feat" and explained why it is invalid. It preferably shouldn't be discussed anymore unless there is some new evidence or other staff members think that it is a valid feat.

You got anything else to say about the buu feat?

 

[ByAsura]

Yes after they were leaving, but they were still visible in the sky where freeza could still track them leaving, that would be impossible if freeza doesn't at least partially scale.

He could somewhat make a sound indicating he knows they left. Nothing really suggests his eyes kept up, and his head was in the same position across the scene.

Also they aee not that bright, they are much closer than you think.

It's a completely black sky due to Porunga's influence. I'd agree if it were daytime, but it isn't.

The balls were moving when they were directly in front of Goku and freeza, and they were tracking them until they got out of view.

That's not shown. All we see is Frieza giving a defeated noise once they've far passed the surface.

Maybe they can downscale.

By a lot.

I don't see why they have to be millions of times FTL from this (the balls are moving at like 12-25 million x SoL). I could see tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands of times SoL, though.

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

He could somewhat make a sound indicating he knows they left. Nothing really suggests his eyes kept up, and his head was in the same position across the scene.

It's a completely black sky due to Porunga's influence. I'd agree if it were daytime, but it isn't.

That's not shown. All we see is Frieza giving a defeated noise once they've far passed the surface.

By a lot.

I don't see why they have to be millions of times FTL from this (the balls are moving at like 12-25 million x SoL). I could see tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands of times SoL, though.

He did, he moved his hand and made a sound in the time the balls were next to him to all the way over there.
What's your point? The balls aren't bright, that means they are close to freeza, and that is reinforced by the dark sky.
We see freeza looking at the balls flying up next to him then next panel we see him looking at the balls flying away from him and he raised his hand in that time, he's clearly tracking them.
Not that much, they would downscale unquantifiably. Wait a bit, I'll make the calculation.

 

[Damage3245]

I'm still against using this "feat" to get ratings for Frieza or Goku, and definitely against downscaling them from the calculation for the full travel time between Namek and Earth. It relies on too many assumptions and generous interpretations.

 

[Stefano4444]

What about Goku speedblitz Ginyu Force's scouters? Do we try to calc and see what result we get?

 

[ByAsura]

He did, he moved his hand and made a sound in the time the balls were next to him to all the way over there.

No. They're well into the sky when he does. That's all we see.

What's your point? The balls aren't bright, that means they are close to freeza, and that is reinforced by the dark sky.

The balls are directly shown to be very bright. Also, it's not very hard to see something that's not even very bright in the dark; even the unaided eye can see a match from nearly 2.6 km in the dark.

We see freeza looking at the balls flying up next to him then next panel we see him looking at the balls flying away from him and he raised his hand in that time, he's clearly tracking them.

His hand is raised the entire time. All he does is go 'ah' when they're far into the sky.

What about Goku speedblitz Ginyu Force's scouters? Do we try to calc and see what result we get?

How would we go about that?

 

[Stefano4444]

How would we go about that?

Like i say before, i think we can fairly assume that scouters can track Ki at the speed of light.

As scouters have been able detect and keep track with Relativistic+ and FTL speeds characters.

Other that radars and similar devices in real life can also detect objects at the speed of light, and scouters should be able to perform at the same speed.

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

No. They're well into the sky when he does. That's all we see.

The balls are directly shown to be very bright. Also, it's not very hard to see something that's not even very bright in the dark; even the unaided eye can see a match from nearly 2.6 km in the dark.

His hand is raised the entire time. All he does is go 'ah' when they're far into the sky.

How would we go about that?

Okay that doesn't matter, the point is that it's still visible therefore the balls haven't travelled very much meaning that freeza reacted to them crossing a small distance.
That's a good point, I guess they are farther than I thought.
No his hand was slightly lower when the balls were flying next to them than when they were far away. It's above freeza's shoulder in the 2nd panel.

What about Goku speedblitz Ginyu Force's scouters? Do we try to calc and see what result we get?

Yeah how? Saiyan space ships?