Dragon Ball Z Manga Power Scaling

[AKM sama]

Orange, the multiplier being accepted is not the issue here and you know it. I have gone through it several times already and I have copied an excerpt from our multipliers page that asks what needs to be done in case of multiplier stacking.

don't make it about something that it isn't about. And if you don't understand what the issue is, then don't reply before understanding.

 

[Orange]

You need to try to be more respectful/less antagonistic towards AKM.

But I haven't done anything wrong, I just asked him for more convincing argument , just like he did to us. There is no reason to be less respectful to him, it's just a matter of different takes, that's all, but I do need to sound less disrespectful , I apologise if I did.

 

[Orange]

Orange, the multiplier being accepted is not the issue here and you know it. I have gone through it several times already and I have copied an excerpt from our multipliers page that asks what needs to be done in case of multiplier stacking.

don't make it about something that it isn't about. And if you don't understand what the issue is, then don't reply before understanding.

Then what is the issue? Multiplier stacking? Lack of feats and statements? Which are all well explained and even accepted.

 

[AKM sama]

I still see no proof of anybody in the Freeza saga being 500x faster than Piccolo's feat. With no supporting evidence, I don't think the 2000x multiplier should be applicable on SSJ Goku.

And I see that nobody chose one of those two options I presented, except Ant who chose the stricter one, I'm going to choose the lenient option (since I am biased for DB) and let the current speed be as it is. No multipliers will be applied after SSJ Goku (Namek Saga) because of lack of evidence. And I know this is being very generous, so if someone else later decides to question why SSJ Goku (Namek Saga) is rated so high in speed without a shred of evidence and tries to downgrade the speed, I won't stop them because they'd be right.

 

[Stefano4444]

No multipliers will be applied after SSJ Goku (Namek Saga) because of lack of evidence.

NO, even if we go with the idea that SSj1 multiplier its "only" a 20x speed increase, there is no reason whatsoever to stop apply multipliers to later arcs.

The SSj1 multiplier doesn't just cease to exist after the Frieza Saga just because you say so, its asinine and plain downplay.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

NO, even if we go with the idea that SSj1 multiplier its "only" a 20x speed increase, there is no reason whatsoever to stop apply multipliers to later arcs.

The SSj1 multiplier doesn't just cease to exist after the Frieza Saga just because you say so, its asinine and plain downplay.

Agreed. Multipliers don't dissapear arbitrarily just because someone says so.

Besides, evidence for the scaling exist all around the thread, and the scaling is undeniable. If someone really want to eliminate the multipliers, then they'd have to debunk the scaling, which is impossible

 

[AKM sama]

The reason is right there, and know that I can see you disagree with it, but saying it doesn't exist is kinda overdoing it. In any case, you don't have to agree with the standards and there are some things I don't agree with, but we all have to compromise at some point.

Otherwise, we can just not apply the SSJ boost altogether, if it makes you feel any better about applying it in the Freeza saga and not applying it later. Because even 432 xFTL with kaioken x20 is a highball considering it has 0 evidence. I'll be fine with that option too.

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

But since I have not received what I asked for, as per the demands of our standards, I will ask again. If someone can show me evidence (in form of feats or something that doesn't hinge on multipliers) of SSJ Goku until the end of Freeza saga, even being 1000 times faster than Piccolo's feat, I will gladly take it as acceptable supporting evidence for claiming his speed increased by 2000 times.

There's one last feat I can provide but it will need calculating. But first I want to ask you.
You want evidence for SSJ Goku being 1000x or 2000x faster than piccolo, why doesn't the undeniable scaling satisfy this? Seriously? You said it's because there is "unquantifiable amps, zenkai, training etc" but why does that mean that we can't use the multiplier? Wouldn't that just mean that the value that is resulted is a huge low ball?
I've asked this before but why do I need to support something entirely built on facts with evidence?
That's what I have to say about this bullshit site standard.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

The reason is right there, and know that I can see you disagree with it, but saying it doesn't exist is kinda overdoing it. In any case, you don't have to agree with the standards and there are some things I don't agree with, but we all have to compromise at some point.

Otherwise, we can just not apply the SSJ boost altogether, if it makes you feel any better about applying it in the Freeza saga and not applying it later. Because even 432 xFTL with kaioken x20 is a highball considering it has 0 evidence. I'll be fine with that option too.

If you really want to eliminate the multiplier, then you'll have to provide reasons to why it shouldn't be valid despite the myriad of evidence for it. Just saying "no becsuse standards" won't cut it

And there's no compromise when you still didn't provided a good reason to why said multiplier should suddenly stopped being used. You're the one arguing against this, so you'd have to bring arguments from the story itself to support it. Again, just saying "no because standards" isn't going to cut it

 

[AKM sama]

You want evidence for SSJ Goku being 1000x or 2000x faster than piccolo, why doesn't the undeniable scaling satisfy this? Seriously? You said it's because there is "unquantifiable amps, zenkai, training etc" but why does that mean that we can't use the multiplier? Wouldn't that just mean that the value that is resulted is a huge low ball?
I've asked this before but why do I need to support something entirely built on facts with evidence?

You refer to multipliers as facts. The wiki treats multipliers like a claim. If someone says that a character got 2x stronger, but doesn't display any feats of being that much stronger, we generally don't question the validity of the multiplier. But when someone says that a character got 3 billion times stronger, and the character doesn't display any feats, the multiplier gets discarded because extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. That's just the way it is and it is the best way to avoid inconsistent and inflated ratings.

Now I am not here to debate with you about we should change standards. I'm just telling you what they are and why they are and you are free to disagree with them personally but you'll still have to follow them here. Multiplier stacking is also treated like a big multiplier in this case, which has to be backed up by sufficient evidence depending on the magnitude.

You are saying that Goku should be 2000x faster due to multipliers. And since that is a big claim, it needs to be backed up as well. And while Goku does get a lot faster there needs to be something quantifiable instead of just a long scaling chain depicting how man characters he is faster than. What I said about zenkai and training is that the boost characters get from them is unquantifiable, and when your purpose is to get something quantifiable only from multipliers, you can't include other unquantifiable factors in it that disturb the result, because then there is no way of saying that the result isn't massively dominated by the unquantifiable factors.

 

[AKM sama]

I've called for more input on this so I'll reiterate the relevant sections:


Piccolo blows up the moon in the beginning of Saiyan saga = 0.54c

Post-King Kai training base Goku scales above that, so > 0.54c

Kaioken x4 Goku > 2.16c


Post-gravity training base Goku scales above that, so > 2.16c

Namek saga Kaioken x2 Goku > 4.32c

Goku has shown to be able to use Kaioken x4 earlier.

Namek saga Goku if he used Kaioken x4 > 8.64c

Goku was confident that he can withstand Kaioken x10 after the gravity training.

Hypothetical Namek saga Kaioken x10 Goku > 21.6c


Goku said that he won't be able to beat Third-form Freeza in his current state even if he healed, yet due to his Zenkai boost he managed to grow stronger than that. It is very likely that Goku must already be taking his ability to go Kaioken x4 and x10 into consideration here. Therefore,

Post-Zenkai base Goku scales above that, so > 8.64c, likely 21.6c

Kaioken x20 Goku > 172.8c, likely 432c

Super Saiyan (x50) Goku > 432c, likely 1080c


@Antvasima @Promestein @Sir_Ovens This multiplier stacking inflates the result of the initial feat by 2000 times, which means, it will be treated like a 2000x multiplier according to our standards. That's a crazy number and would need a good amount of evidence to back it up. Unfortunately, there is no feat in DBZ that supports even a 500x increase in speed, let alone 2000x. Rating it as MFTL+ when not a single feat even scratches the surface of FTL is not okay with me.

I'd personally suggest to draw the line at Kaioken x20 and leave the speed at 172.8 xFTL. And I know this is also very generous, but if you're not okay with that compromise, I'd like to hear your suggestions.

 

[Antvasima]

I am personally fine with AKM's suggestion.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I have to work today, but I still have my issues with the heavy restrictions.

 

[Orange]

And we are personally think that his suggestion is not downplay, it's borderline insanity. Why shouldn't we use ssj if the multiplier is accepted, the scaling is accepted. What's even the point of his thread to downgrade ssj if he is not using it. I have a better suggestion, we ignore his proposals, and continue on our work, until he brings decent arguments.
The sheer inconsistency of his actions is rubbing me off the wrong, from using head canon to justify his downgrade, to actaully stop using ssj because "nuh numbers" even when scaling and the multipliers are already accepted. So no, we aren't going to stop using multipliers, but we could settle off on "[x value of speed] likely [x value of speed while taking the multipliers in consideration]".

 

[Ruphas_Mafahl123]

And we are personally think that his suggestion is not downplay, it's borderline insanity. Why shouldn't we use ssj if the multiplier is accepted, the scaling is accepted. What's even the point of his thread to downgrade ssj if he is not using it. I have a better suggestion, we ignore his proposals, and continue on our work, until he brings decent arguments.
The sheer inconsistency of his actions is rubbing me off the wrong, from using head canon to justify his downgrade, to actaully stop using ssj because "nuh numbers" even when scaling and the multipliers are already accepted. So no, we aren't going to stop using multipliers, but we could settle off on "[x value of speed] likely [x value of speed while taking the multipliers in consideration]".

I understand how you feel, but you are very stubborn about it, just chill

 

[Vietthai96]

I personally don't agree with this, SSJ should be atleast far above x20

Rating it as MFTL+ when not a single feat even scratches the surface of FTL is not okay with me.

I also want to hear from you that, what kind of feat which can be considered as FTL to you, if we talk about cinematic and statement, i think we should also downgrade DBS speed to below FTL as it is stated by the character in the series that only Dyspo can go FTL, and even then, his supposed cinematic speed feat is not even SoL

 

[Stefano4444]

You refer to multipliers as facts. The wiki treats multipliers like a claim. If someone says that a character got 2x stronger, but doesn't display any feats of being that much stronger, we generally don't question the validity of the multiplier. But when someone says that a character got 3 billion times stronger, and the character doesn't display any feats, the multiplier gets discarded because extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. That's just the way it is and it is the best way to avoid inconsistent and inflated ratings.

Then by the same logic then you shouldn't had any issue with 100% Frieza be two times faster than 50% Frieza and SSj1 Goku be a 50x speed increase as well, as those are still relatively small increases in the grand scale of the series (since i must remind you that in the OG series Goku jumped from Subsonic to Relativistic).

 

[Orange]

At this point, it's just laughable to even debate against him, it doesn't Even matter anymore. If using accepted multipliers and scaling is "not valid" and "wank", might as well ban scaling and multipliers from the whole site.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Once again, no arguments from the opposition beyond "no becasue standards/I said so", no reasons to why stop so arbitrarily, and no acknowledgment of the arguments me and other people supporting the thread made.

 

[StrawHatArslan]

the arguments have been pretty repetitive, and lack any solid evidence, still hard disagree with the OP

 

[Promestein]

My issue is less using multipliers and more continuously stacking them again and again to get higher and higher results for characters who don't really show any speed feats beyond 'is faster than x'. It leads to exaggerated statistics that aren't really backed up by anything that happens in canon; I'm not talking about the speed in relation to other characters in verse, I'm talking about the values received

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for helping out Promestein.

 

[Stefano4444]

My issue is less using multipliers and more continuously stacking them again and again to get higher and higher results for characters who don't really show any speed feats beyond 'is faster than x'. It leads to exaggerated statistics that aren't really backed up by anything that happens in canon; I'm not talking about the speed in relation to other characters in verse, I'm talking about the values received

While i can understand your point, at the same time limit the multipliers to just the saga where they have been introducted and just ignore them in future arcs its also wrong other to be inaccurate to what the series had show.

If we know that multiplier of the SSj1 hasn't change a bit (or better that 4th Grade SSj1 possess the same multiplier) and if we know that characters in their base have have surpassed their previous peak in previous arc, its should be fine to upscale in this scenario, speed included.

Now, while i will admit that i'm not fully certain about Post ROSAT Gotenks, i think there is enough legitimate evidence for at least Buu Saga Base Goku to upscale above his previous peak during the Cell Saga (via scaling from Shin), meaning Buu Saga Base Goku should be Massively FTL in base, and Massively FTL+ in SSj1.

 

[Sir_Ovens]

After reading the arguments I think it's fine to say that characters who surpassed their previous selves can upscale from their previous speeds on top of multipliers as well.

However, the case of outlier is also prevelant. I'm all for adding big dummy numbers to speed but we can't just apply multipliers without at least one on-screen feat even remotely close to that level.

So if someone can provide feats of Dragon Ball being MFTL or even FTL in the latter half of the saga, I would be more willing to accept the multipliers.

 

[AKM sama]

snip

snip

If you cannot cool off enough to address the arguments and instead resort to personal attacks, then you don't deserve to be on this thread.

i think we should also downgrade DBS speed to below FTL as it is stated by the character in the series that only Dyspo can go FTL, and even then, his supposed cinematic speed feat is not even SoL

Feel free to make a thread on it and invite me, I will give my views there. DBS is not relevant to this thread.


Considering all the bureaucrats here and Ovens agree that a downgrade is more reasonable, and only DDM thinks that we should grant huge speed values not backed up by the show, I think it is time to stop these circular arguments. I have deep respect for DDM but I feel he is excessively lenient to verses he likes. Doing this sets a bad precedent and does not show rational sense of judgment. And I am guilty of that too when I accepted MFTL+ SSJ Goku, and that led to this abomination of a thread where people are asking for 500000x FTL or whatever in the Buu saga.

What I'd like to do is draw a hard line above which the inflation will not be allowed without supporting feats and it should be noted in the speed blog so we don't get repeated threads about it.

We can draw a line at Kaioken x20 Goku > 172.8c and rate everything beyond this as being likely higher, or likely far higher. It is a bit of a highball that wouldn't pass for any other verse given the best feat is only 0.54c, but DB has always relied on numbers and scaling more than feats so we can make this exception.

I'd wait for a bit before applying these changes.

 

[Stefano4444]

Then we might as well just drop the new entire scaling along with the SSj1 Multiplier in its entirety, as there hasn't be any Stellar level feats during/after the Frieza Saga, beside SPC's infamous statement, so we should also delete Star level and Large Star level if we want to be consistent.

And no, Planet Vegeta Destuction isn't solid proof of SSj1 Multiplier be a 50x increase in anyway, since presumably we can only be certain that SSj1 its above 100% Frieza to an "unquantifiable" amount.

Even 100% Frieza its exactly 2x stronger than 50% Frieza can be brought into question, with Saiyan Saga Vegeta who its only at most slightly above Planet level yet Base Frieza with a Power Level of only 520,000 its casually a Dwarf Star level+, meaning the actual difference may be far higher.

 

[AKM sama]

The issue of AP is quite different as the feat is Dwarf Star level+ and multipliers aren't being used as aggressively in that scenario with the width of Small Star level and Star level only being 18x and 5x respectively and we do have a good supporting evidence for AP because of Cell. I'd be willing to discuss it in another thread if you really want to but this isn't as egregious as thousands of times increase in speed without any evidence.

 

[AKM sama]

Sarcasm is good and all, but all you're doing with that comment is trying to derail the thread. Nobody said Vegito is going to be rated as 5-C and rel+, so I'd appreciate if you don't post such comments again. The thread is already too long and I'd like to finish it now. Thanks.

 

[Stefano4444]

The issue of AP is quite different as the feat is Dwarf Star level+ and multipliers aren't being used as aggressively in that scenario

But this isn't true, the Multipliers for AP have been used just as much, if not more since we also apply Android 17, Goku and Gohan's statements in the scaling.

We have SSj1 Gotenks and everyone who scale to him in the 100+ KiloFoe range and Super Vegito in the MegaFoe range despire having no supporting feats, yet for some reason you think Speed its getting too high?

I'm sorry but this its simply stupid, AP shouldn't get special treatment, if the evidence for the Speed scaling isn't enough then the same should be apply with AP, since both are based more or less on the same evidence.

And yes, doing so would probably cause a massive downgrade to the series, but i would rather doing that if we want to be consistent with our own rules rather than cherry pick what we don't like.

with the width of Small Star level and Star level only being 18x and 5x respectively and we do have clear cut evidence for AP because of Cell.

Yet you also think that 2x increase for 100% Frieza and 2.5x increase via SSj1 Goku its too much?

Also Cell its just a statement, not an actual feat.

I'd be willing to discuss it in another thread if you really want to but this isn't as egregious as thousands of times increase in speed without any evidence.

This thread its about the scaling of the entire manga including AP, there is no reason to discuss it in another thread.

but this isn't as egregious as thousands of times increase in speed without any evidence.

Yet its fine having characters's getting thousands of times more powerful despire having just as much evidence?

 

[AKM sama]

We have SSj1 Gotenks and everyone who scale to him in the 100+ KiloFoe range and Super Vegito in the MegaFoe range despire having no supporting feats, yet for some reason your think Speed its getting too high?

I am not aware of any such thing. And for the record, I don't agree with assigning these random numbers on Gotenks and Vegito. I checked their profiles, and they have nothing in there that suggests it. All they have is that they are Solar System level because they scale unquantifiably above Cell and like you said, we shouldn't use hard numbers on them as it sets a bad precedent.

EDIT: If you are talking about this blog being listed on the verse page, I want you to know that while the power scaling regarding who is stronger than whom is correct, we do not use the actual numbers in any official capacity because the blog is not linked to any character profile. And I think the blog should be redone without the numbers and excessive use of ">>>" arrows if it is going to be listed on the verse page because it is misleading. Apart from us not using any particular values, the structure also looks really bad. Otherwise, we may have to remove it. I didn't even know it was listed on the verse page in the first place and I don't know why it is.

 

[ByAsura]

I really don't like this speed scaling, but I'll remain neutral.

Personally, I have problems with scaling speed to above previous higher forms unless there's outright confirmation.

Android #17 and #18
During the final fight between future Gohan and #17, #17 states that in their last battle he only used 50% of his power against Gohan (chapter 397.5 page 11). 3 years later, future trunks is stated by Bulma to still be weaker than future Gohan before he died (chapter 397.5 page 16), but this same Gohan told trunks that he was not as strong as Goku was before he passed away (chapter 397.5 page 3), and this Goku scales to Vegeta who fought #18 and badly lost. With this, we can derive this scaling chain, Future Trunks < Future Gohan < Goku < Vegeta <<< #18/#17 (2x Future Gohan), this will make then androids and those who scale to them star level
+ (489 tenatons). This will also make Semi-perfect large star level (978 tenatons).

I've always found this line a little weird given how Trunks can survive against the Androids, so I looked into the raws

あのときの 悟飯くんと いまのあんたと そんなに すごく ちがっているとは おもえないわ.......

From what I can find, she's saying that Gohan wasn't very different from Trunks when he was killed by the Androids 3 years ago.

It changes the context because Gohan is around the same level as Future Trunks and much stronger than when he lost the first time (he even thinks, which is somewhat implied by the Androids, that he can win against that level of power). So we can't reliably scale him to half the Androids' power.

SSJ Grade 4 Goku
Next up is Cell saga SSJ Goku. After leaving the chamber, he showcased his power to Korin which made everyone freak out (chapter 391 page 10) and Vegeta even said that Goku had surpassed him (chapter 391 page 14), it turns out that Goku was only using half power and was still stronger than everybody there (chapter 391 page 11), this makes him at least 2x stronger than them at full power which is (1956 tenatons), this scales to Shin, Cell saga and Boo saga Gohan, Perfect cell, Dabura and the base forms of Boo saga saiyans. Katchin busters scale far above that.

This is actually a lot more impressive because Trunks was among the terrified Z-Fighters at this time, and he had Grade 3.

but he still scales to Cell saga SSJ Goku

Doesn't that contradict Goku threatening to kill him, and your entire (albeit very strange) argument that base Goku alone is stronger?

He should probably scale to Piccolo instead.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

I really don't like this speed scaling, but I'll remain neutral.

Personally, I have problems with scaling speed to above previous higher forms unless there's outright confirmation.

I've always found this line a little weird given how Trunks can survive against the Androids, so I looked into the raws

あのときの 悟飯くんと いまのあんたと そんなに すごく ちがっているとは おもえないわ.......

From what I can find, she's saying that Gohan wasn't very different from Trunks when he was killed by the Androids 3 years ago.

It changes the context because Gohan is around the same level as Future Trunks and much stronger than when he lost the first time (he even thinks, which is substantiated by the Androids, that he can win). So we can't reliably scale him to half the Androids' power.

Android 17 actually said he didn't used half of his power last time Gohan fought him (when he had both arms). Not in the day he was killed. Gohan fought Android 17 used his full power, and thought he would be able to defeat him this time, but then 17 revealed to Gohan that he used less than half of his full power when he fought him last time

 

[ByAsura]

I know, and that's the whole point of my argument.

We can't reliably scale Future Trunks to half the Androids' power because he's comparable to Future Gohan, and FG had grown much stronger since the Androids fought him at half power.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

I know, and that's the whole point of my argument.

We can't reliably scale Future Trunks to half the Androids' power because he's comparable to Future Gohan, and FG had grown much stronger since the Androids fought him at half power.

Gohan also lost one arm when he battled against them. We from Present Gohan that his power got halved when Cell broke his arm and rendered it useless, so we can safely say that a similar thibg can be applied with Future Gohan, that his power got halved as well due to losing his arm

 

[ByAsura]

Gohan's clearly stronger than when he last fought them a year ago. He's done training, believes he can win, and the androids have to tell him he can't because they were suppressed.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Gohan's clearly stronger than when he last fought them. He's done training, believes he can win, and the androids have to tell him he can't because they were suppressed.

That still doesn't mean he scales to half their full power though. Gohan thought that he can win now given their perfirmance last time, but 17 can still be more than twice as strong as Gohan

Assume Android 17 is 15 and Gohan is 10. Android 17 obviously overpowers Gohan easily. However, Android 17's full power is 40, so even if Gohan's power now is 15, he's still less than twice as strong as 17

Now the numbers aren't accurate, but were meant to prove a point, that even though Gohan was stroger than before, that still doesn't mean he scales to more than half of 17's power

That is further supported by Trunks being unable to beat them, despite being as strong as Gohan at his death, and at half strength due to his arm loss

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

I really don't like this speed scaling, but I'll remain neutral.

Personally, I have problems with scaling speed to above previous higher forms unless there's outright confirmation.

I've always found this line a little weird given how Trunks can survive against the Androids, so I looked into the raws

あのときの 悟飯くんと いまのあんたと そんなに すごく ちがっているとは おもえないわ.......

From what I can find, she's saying that Gohan wasn't very different from Trunks when he was killed by the Androids 3 years ago.

It changes the context because Gohan is around the same level as Future Trunks and much stronger than when he lost the first time (he even thinks, which is somewhat implied by the Androids, that he can win against that level of power). So we can't reliably scale him to half the Androids' power.

This is actually a lot more impressive because Trunks was among the terrified Z-Fighters at this time, and he had Grade 3.

Doesn't that contradict Goku threatening to kill him, and your entire (albeit very strange) argument that base Goku alone is stronger?

He should probably scale to Piccolo instead.

Oh, an actual scaling argument.
I see your point, but why was gohan so shocked when 17 revealed he only used 50% power? I'll explain, gohan trained to beat 17, but in his mind the 17 he though he needed to beat was actually less than half as strong as the real one, and gohan believed he could possibly beat 17 this time, this means gohan now at least scales to 50% but he wasn't confident, so that's why it shocked him that 17 was actually only using 50%, it's because that would mean the real 17 is 2x stronger than him.
Yeah sure but grade 3's multiplier is not accepted and at this rate, ain't no way in hell will it be.
Mate, Buu saga Goku threatened to kill shin, shin scales to cell saga Goku.

 

[ByAsura]

That still doesn't mean he scales to half their full power though. Gohan thought that he can win now given their perfirmance last time, but 17 can still be more than twice as strong as Gohan

Which is an assumption, one we don't have enough evidence to make.

As I said, we can't reliably scale him to half the Androids' power. I didn't say it's impossible, I just said it's unknown since Gohan got stronger to an unknown extent, but less than the Androids' full power, since then.

Now the numbers aren't accurate, but were meant to prove a point, that even though Gohan was stroger than before, that still doesn't mean he scales to more than half of 17's power

You haven't proved this point though. You've given a reason why it could work.

That is further supported by Trunks being unable to beat them, despite being as strong as Gohan at his death, and at half strength due to his arm loss

If his ki is cut in half, Trunks would scale to Gohan as he is with his power always being half of what it could be, not twice his level of strength due to having both limbs.

I see your point, but why was gohan so shocked when 17 revealed he only used 50% power? I'll explain, gohan trained to beat 17, but in his mind the 17 he though he needed to beat was actually less than half as strong as the real one, and gohan believed he could possibly beat 17 this time, this means gohan now at least scales to 50% but he wasn't confident, so that's why it shocked him that 17 was actually only using 50%, it's because that would mean the real 17 is 2x stronger than him.

That's just a massive assumption.

He could literally just be 1.5x stronger than Gohan and completely eclipse him. In fact, Kaioken x3 Goku was beating Vegeta with less of a gap. Hell, suppressed Vegeta was beating Kaioken x2 Goku with less of a gap than 1.5x.

Mate, Buu saga Goku threatened to kill shin, shin scales to cell saga Goku.

Sorry, I read it as Buu Saga. My mistake.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you to all staff members who are helping out here.

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

Which is an assumption, one we don't have enough evidence to make.

As I said, we can't reliably scale him to half the Androids' power. I didn't say it's impossible, I just said it's unknown since Gohan got stronger to an unknown extent, but less than the Androids' full power, since then.

You haven't proved this point though. You've given a reason why it could work.

If his ki is cut in half, Trunks would scale to Gohan as he is with his power always being half of what it would be, not twice his level of strength due to having both limbs.

That's just a massive assumption.

He could literally just be 1.5x stronger than Gohan and completely eclipse him. In fact, Kaioken x3 Goku was beating Vegeta with less of a gap. Hell, suppressed Vegeta was beating Kaioken x2 Goku with less of a gap than 1.5x.

Sorry, I read it as Buu Saga. My mistake.

Do you know what Gohan told trunks before he went to his final battle?
"Someday you will be the only warrior who can beat the androids"
Gohan went to fight 17 and he wasn't even confident he could win. The way he even said he's been training didn't even imply confidence. This means Gohan should be at least equal or barely above 17 if he thought he could maybe win. Your stomp gap examples are not valid because of this, and that is consistent with gohan ******** himself when he heard 17 is only at 50%. 17 is still 2x stronger than gohan.