Dragon Ball Z Manga Power Scaling

[FluffyCreatureZ]

We should just keep going editing the profiles on what has been accepted by DDM and the supporters of the verse.

I finished the profiles. Only the TOP fodder with no justifications are left out.

So do the DB pages need to have their statistics adjusted based on what AKM said, or should the remaining edits for this revision be carried out now?

Let's wait for akmman to respond until we reach a conclusion.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Let's wait a bit then. It may be best to finish this revision, and then let AKM and Zamasu create their own revisions thread later on.

 

[Orange]

I have a suggestion , and I hope this doesn't cause alot of problems.
I think most fodder T.O.P characters should just get deleted solely because people don't use them that much in matches and such, and aren't widely popular.
But that's just my opinion

 

[Antvasima]

I am uncertain. It depends on what others here think.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

I have a suggestion , and I hope this doesn't cause alot of problems.
I think most fodder T.O.P characters should just get deleted solely because people don't use them that much in matches and such, and aren't widely popular.
But that's just my opinion

Agreed,
Though the better reason is simply that they are redundant and are basically just copy-pasted basic power/abilities and scaling of main characters

 

[Orange]

Agreed,
Though the better reason is simply that they are redundant and are basically just copy-pasted basic power/abilities and scaling of main characters

I disagree because.
refuses to elaborate.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Of course he's allowed to voice his disagreements or take as long as he needs; not that it's particularly good practice to necro and old decision and/or push for something that feels double standard/golden eggish. If the discussion is about trying to maybe make ssj form a 50x AP multiplier but lack anything beyond 20x speed multiplier or make it so it's not a multiplier later on despite ssj mastered implying it's actually more than 50x. That still sounds awkward. I might need to talk with him in DMs if I'm misunderstanding him or maybe do what we did last time in which he finally conceded to 3rd form Frieza being possibly 10x stronger than Ginyu saga base Goku and what not after looking at specific scans back to back.

 

[AKM sama]

The Multiplier for Base Vegito and Buu Saga SSj1 Goku its always the same one accepted and used for the Frieza Saga SSj1 Goku.

You missed the point so I'll explain once again. It doesn't matter if the multiplier is same. It matters that the multiplier is being stacked. Read the multipliers page again.

If a 5x multiplier is accepted and used, that is fine. If it is stacked 4 times over, it is not treated as the same 5x multiplier. It is treated as a 625x multiplier. And the acceptance of the 5x multiplier doesn't have anything to do with whether we will accept the latter.

AKM, even Darkdragomedeus and the rest of the staff agrees with this, you are the only one arguing against this.

One staff member agreeing with such a big upgrade is not enough. No other staff member has even been on this thread for a long time and I haven't received any valid reason to allow for something that goes against the standards.

And cells solar system feat isn't a feat?

Not a feat, to be exact. A statement. But that's not the point. The point is that is comes after gaining many powerups through training, zenkais and transformations that don't have a fixed multiplier. After Freeza, they trained for several years including Yardrat, Earth, RoSaT and got stronger. They got zenkais and got stronger. They got a SSJ2 transformation. All of that culminates into Cell's statement. So Cell being 4-B can be easily attributed to the results of these increases. These increases don't come from accepted multipliers. So they have no relation to speed. And secondly, SPC is still above SSJ1 Goku from the Buu saga. So I don't even know how you think you've got a valid scaling chain here.

SSJ1 Goku (Buu saga) < SPC < SSJ2 Goku (Buu saga)

So you can use SPC's 4-B for SSJ2 Goku. But not for SSJ1 Goku.

And even if you somehow do try to use it for SSJ1 Goku, it just means Goku grew in strength because as I explained earlier, there are several ways to grow in strength which are unquantifiable. And these increases do not come from accepted multipliers alone.

Your entire logic is "Goku should be this fast because Goku is this strong". This is illogical and not how things are done. You can't use AP to justify speed. Especially when the AP is so high because there have been many unquantifiable increases in it. You don't understand that using Freeza's AP feat to justify speed increases in Namek saga is utterly questionable in itself and can be easily argued against. Because Freeza's AP feat only supports the multiplier till his first form. Not till SSJ Goku level.

Nah it's still supporting because it doesn't make sense if they go from barely MFTL+ to quadrillions of times FTL.

It makes perfect sense. That seems like an argument from incredulity. The God boost was huge and unquantifiable.

So do the DB pages need to have their statistics adjusted based on what AKM said, or should the remaining edits for this revision be carried out now?

They don't need to be changed. I will create a separate thread soon.

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

Not a feat, to be exact. A statement. But that's not the point. The point is that is comes after gaining many powerups through training, zenkais and transformations that don't have a fixed multiplier. After Freeza, they trained for several years including Yardrat, Earth, RoSaT and got stronger. They got zenkais and got stronger. They got a SSJ2 transformation. All of that culminates into Cell's statement. So Cell being 4-B can be easily attributed to the results of these increases. These increases don't come from accepted multipliers. So they have no relation to speed. And secondly, SPC is still above SSJ1 Goku from the Buu saga. So I don't even know how you think you've got a valid scaling chain here.

SSJ1 Goku (Buu saga) < SPC < SSJ2 Goku (Buu saga)

So you can use SPC's 4-B for SSJ2 Goku. But not for SSJ1 Goku.

And even if you somehow do try to use it for SSJ1 Goku, it just means Goku grew in strength because as I explained earlier, there are several ways to grow in strength which are unquantifiable. And these increases do not come from accepted multipliers alone.

Your entire logic is "Goku should be this fast because Goku is this strong". This is illogical and not how things are done. You can't use AP to justify speed. Especially when the AP is so high because there have been many unquantifiable increases in it. You don't understand that using Freeza's AP feat to justify speed increases in Namek saga is utterly questionable in itself and can be easily argued against. Because Freeza's AP feat only supports the multiplier till his f

Feh, what a load of crap.
The difference between perfect cell and buu saga base Goku is not that big, perfect cell is stronger.
Cell saga SSJ Goku = shin < Yakon < Goku.
Cell saga SSJ Goku < SSJ Gohan <<< perfect cell.
Goku goes SSJ and he is still not on super perfect cells level, but super perfect cell is now 50x faster than before but it's supported by his feat which is the thing that puts him above Goku in AP. This almost purely a multiplier increase in speed, no training no zenkai, no unquantifiable bullshit.

You can use AP to justify speed in the case of dragon ball because magnifying ki increases both statistics by the same amount. This is literally a note on the verse page.

Yeah freeza saga SSJ multiplier "utterly questionable" because FTL+ SSJ Vegito makes perfect sense. This is borderline downplay, I'm tired of this.

makes perfect sense. That seems like an argument from incredulity. The God boost was huge and unquantifiable

Despite the fact that the god amp is not portrayed nearly as large as the gap between solar system to universal/multigalaxy in the actual story. Going from 1000x ftl to quadrillions x ftl is unreasonable.

 

[AKM sama]

Allow me to go over the speed scaling in detail:

Piccolo blows up the moon in the beginning of Saiyan saga = 0.54c

Post-King Kai training base Goku scales above that, so > 0.54c

Kaioken x3 Goku fighting Vegeta > 1.62c

Kaioken x4 Goku > 2.16c

Post-gravity training base Goku scales above that, so > 2.16c

Namek saga Kaioken x2 Goku > 4.32c

Goku has shown to be able to use Kaioken x4 by this point.

Namek saga Kaioken x4 Goku > 8.64c

Goku was confident that he can withstand Kaioken x10 after the gravity training.

Namek saga Kaioken x10 Goku > 21.6c

After this point, Goku becomes stronger than Freeza's feat of blowing up planet Vegeta. There is no speed feat to back up this much increase in speed. But there is Freeza's AP feat that Goku scales to. The problem with using the AP feat is that you are neglecting that Goku got a zenkai and a training boost in between this scaling. So his AP increase does not only come from kaioken multipliers, but it also has two unquantifiable increases. So the AP feat does not fully support the validity of the multipliers because of two unknown factors. And thus, you shouldn't use it.

Believe me, the only reason this was passed is because staff members are too generous when it comes to DB.



Beyond this point, there exists no feat that supports the following numbers:

Post-Zenkai base Goku scales above that, so > 8.64c, likely 21.6c

Kaioken x20 Goku > 172.8c, likely 432c

Super Saiyan (x50) Goku > 432c, likely 1080c

So all these numbers are even more questionable since they have 0 backing.

If you ask my honest opinion, the speed should be downgraded.

 

[Antvasima]

AKM seems to make sense above. Thank you for helping out.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

The problem was, I though you conceded long ago that a Kaioken x10 Goku from Ginyu saga should logically not be anywhere near as fast as a 3rd form Frieza saga. And Dragon Ball is consistent that being multiple tiers in AP above the previous character should hold back no reason for them to also be superior in speed to some extent. Going all the way back down to FTL+ is the textbook definition of Golden Egg Fallacy. I don't disagree with the "Lack of Feats" statement, however, Dragon Ball is not the only verse where we accepted AP or speed jump solely based on multipliers. Let's not bring up the 3-A and Quadrillions FTL feats since that came much later, but there are verses that didn't even have those but have going from 5-B to 5-A accepted via multipliers.

I understand the "Possible 10x" being iffy in itself since that's a hypothetical confidence. Though, Goku did sense 3rd form Frieza's power and was 100% certain that not even a 10x Kaioken would keep up with him. Plus, from their, Goku clearly being able his previous Kaioken x4 self is 100% blatant and him being able to stomp/blitz 3rd form Frieza in base outright is also blatant. Even if the 10x part got removed, Massively FTL would need to stay regardless. Plus, nuking speed multipliers would also nuke multipliers from the initial High 5-A+ feat. Kaioken was accepted as being X times for both AP and speed.

Furthermore, we cannot ignore some lore back ups revealed in Buu Saga. Goku, Vegeta, and Gohan all grew to the point where even their base forms are well above Frieza scaling from Shin. Which would also affect their Kaioken, Super Saiyan forms accordingly at that point too. Also, SSJ Mastered gas plenty of other statements about it being an even bigger multiplier than the basic SSJ form. And some Kaizenshuu statements, while secondary canon and some parts are unreliable. Kind of compares the Perfect Cell to Super Perfect Cell jump as similar to going from base form to SSJ form.

 

[Antvasima]

Medeus also makes good points. I suppose that you will both largely have to figure out a solution together then.

 

[AKM sama]

I don't disagree with the "Lack of Feats" statement, however, Dragon Ball is not the only verse where we accepted AP or speed jump solely based on multipliers. Let's not bring up the 3-A and Quadrillions FTL feats since that came much later, but there are verses that didn't even have those but have going from 5-B to 5-A accepted via multipliers.

This is whataboutism. The context might differ, the multipliers might differ, and the evidence they have backing them up might differ. I cannot speak for other verses here without any knowledge. But two wrongs don't make a right. If you think other verses are getting hundreds of times increases in speed or AP due to multiplier stacking without anything backing them up, then now you know it is wrong to do that, and they should be corrected as well.

I understand the "Possible 10x" being iffy in itself since that's a hypothetical confidence. Though, Goku did sense 3rd form Frieza's power and was 100% certain that not even a 10x Kaioken would keep up with him. Plus, from their, Goku clearly being able his previous Kaioken x4 self is 100% blatant and him being able to stomp/blitz 3rd form Frieza in base outright is also blatant. Even if the 10x part got removed, Massively FTL would need to stay regardless. Plus, nuking speed multipliers would also nuke multipliers from the initial High 5-A+ feat. Kaioken was accepted as being X times for both AP and speed.

This is you not understanding my point. I don't really care for Goku's possible 10x increase, and it's not something I have presented as an issue in my previous point. And kaioken is still a valid multiplier. But like I said earlier, when you stack a multiplier over something, the amount of evidence needed increases based on the stacking. The multipliers stacking being applied on a relativistic feat in Saiyan saga and the multiplier being applied on an AP feat in Freeza saga will be treated differently. Like I said earlier, you can apply a 5x multiplier on a recent feat and it will be fine because it will only be treated as a 5x multiplier. But if you apply the same 5x multiplier over a very old feat and then stack in over 4 more times, it's treated as a 625x multiplier.

Your problem here is that if you're using the 5x multiplier on a direct AP feat, then it's just 5x. But when you use the same multiplier over something that was already stacked three times in the past and had become 125x over an old speed feat, it becomes a 625x multiplier for the speed. Both will be treated separately.

Furthermore, we cannot ignore some lore back ups revealed in Buu Saga. Goku, Vegeta, and Gohan all grew to the point where even their base forms are well above Frieza scaling from Shin. Which would also affect their Kaioken, Super Saiyan forms accordingly at that point too. Also, SSJ Mastered gas plenty of other statements about it being an even bigger multiplier than the basic SSJ form. And some Kaizenshuu statements, while secondary canon and some parts are unreliable. Kind of compares the Perfect Cell to Super Perfect Cell jump as similar to going from base form to SSJ form.

Nobody is denying they are stronger and faster. It just means they will get likely higher. And not actual multipliers stacked onto already stacked multipliers without proper backing.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

This is whataboutism. The context might differ, the multipliers might differ, and the evidence they have backing them up might differ. I cannot speak for other verses here without any knowledge. But two wrongs don't make a right. If you think other verses are getting hundreds of times increases in speed or AP due to multiplier stacking without anything backing them up, then now you know it is wrong to do that, and they should be corrected as well.

I don't care about the outcome of those other verses, and "Two Wrongs don't make a right" isn't something I need to be told. And it could apply to the opposite as well. As not using multipliers at all could also be seen as a wrong and a double wrong if we started using it for other verses. But the other points are already brought up in the next paragraph.

This is you not understanding my point. I don't really care for Goku's possible 10x increase, and it's not something I have presented as an issue in my previous point. And kaioken is still a valid multiplier. But like I said earlier, when you stack a multiplier over something, the amount of evidence needed increases based on the stacking. The multipliers stacking being applied on a relativistic feat in Saiyan saga and the multiplier being applied on an AP feat in Freeza saga will be treated differently. Like I said earlier, you can apply a 5x multiplier on a recent feat and it will be fine because it will only be treated as a 5x multiplier. But if you apply the same 5x multiplier over a very old feat and then stack in over 4 more times, it's treated as a 625x multiplier.

Your problem here is that if you're using the 5x multiplier on a direct AP feat, then it's just 5x. But when you use the same multiplier over something that was already stacked three times in the past and had become 125x over an old speed feat, it becomes a 625x multiplier for the speed. Both will be treated separately.

Yes, throughout the thread, they have been showing me evidence step by step. Albeit, the thread is uber lengthy and likely difficult to dig up. I'd like to reread the entire manga myself if I wasn't still using an outdated hardware and screenshot each and every single scan so I can show each and every step back to back. But if you do read through the entire thread, they actually did show evidence. You already did concede back in the original thread with the 10x and later stacked 20x, but are now showing concerns for the 40x and 50x next which is being tackled on the other thread. But the others such as Fluffy Creature and Stefanno have been thoroughly providing scans throughout the thread albeit not quite lined up back to back. I was initially on the offense still I saw the scans as I was active during the discussion. I'm sure you'd be at least a bit less reluctant to agree if you were as active as I was during the discussion or if the provided scans were lined up more closely. Such as all scans linked in a bullet list format as opposed to one or two scans per paragraph discussing each topic. But they did provide scans for the following facts.

• Shin being comparable to SSJ Goku (Android Saga)
• Gohan (Post Zenkai or at least Post Z Sword training) and Base Vegeta (Buu saga) being above Shin; or Vegeta being above Pui Pui who was above Shin
• Base Gotenks being above Majin Vegeta via Krillin's statement
• Base Gotenks (Post RoSaT) being above SSJ Gotenks via Piccolo's reaction
• Base Vegito > Buuhan.

@FluffyCreatureZ @Stefano4444 you guys are welcome to back up and rewrite the list with more expansive statements + screenshots. Again, can't too risky for me to read manga reader atm.

Nobody is denying they are stronger and faster. It just means they will get likely higher. And not actual multipliers stacked onto them without proper backing.

Fair enough, but replacing all 50x speed multipliers with extra arrowed 20x multipliers would still result in Massively FTL+ happening eventually. Or at least one of those aforementioned multipliers happening. Even if it means Android saga is downgraded to just plain Massively FTL. And the "Without proper backing" was the key phrase already elaborated upon.

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

Thanks for helping out dark dragon man, really. I'll provide all the scans for the things you listed.

• Shin being comparable to SSJ Goku (Android Saga)

He is stated equal to him in the El Manga Legendario guide, and it's consistent with piccolo's statement.

• Gohan (Post Zenkai or at least Post Z Sword training) and Base Vegeta (Buu saga) being above Shin; or Vegeta being above Pui Pui who was above Shin

Shin is worried about vegeta for fighting pui pui alone and doesn't want him to fight alone, then when pui pui gets stomped by base vegeta he acts shocked and says "such power, it can't be".
Shin states that SSJ Gohan's power is impressive and was shocked that the other saiyans could be holding back and can't believe they are that strong, SSJ Gohan at this point is weaker than both base Goku and vegeta.
Before sending yakon out, dabura stated that he'd kill everyone in stage 2 despite knowing about supreme kai shin and pui pui's power. This is consistent with Shin saying he is one of the most feared creatures in the universe, and suggesting to fight him all at once twice. Base Goku is already above Yakon.
After the fight with majin buu, Gohan becomes strong enough to lift the Z sword in base, this is something that Shin cannot do, and Goku is shown having a little difficulty swinging it around like Gohan, this means Gohan scales to him.

• Base Gotenks being above Majin Vegeta via Krillin's statement

Krillin, Goten and Trunks all watched Majin Vegeta get pooped on by Buu, yet both Gotenks and Krillin believed Gotenks stood a chance against Buu, this is further backed up by Gotenks managing to escape and surviving a beating that would've otherwise killed Majin Vegeta.

• Base Gotenks (Post RoSaT) being above SSJ Gotenks via Piccolo's reaction

Piccolo though Gotenks could only beat buu by going super saiyan (he was basing buu's strength off fat buu) and was confused on why Goten and Trunks aren't fusing as SSJs, but when he felt post ROSAT base Gotenks' power, he was so impressed by his growth that he said he was completely different than before and thought he could win regardless.

• Base Vegito > Buuhan.

Not exactly buuhan, it's buutenks.
Elder kai said that a fusion of Goku and Gohan wouldn't need SSJ to beat Buutenks, Vegito should be as strong since Goku, Gohan and vegeta all have nigh equal bases, Vegito is confirmed stronger in the El Manga Legendario.

Not using the multipliers with the scaling is unreasonable, you either have to attack the scaling that supports the multiplier or attack the multiplier to deny this both of which are supported by a miryad of evidence.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Scans

It'd probably be better to use the scans in the official translation of the series. Can't seem to link the site where I found these though

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Yes, I think that settles all the multiplier stacks. The only thing left is the other thread to determine if we keep them at 50x each or lower to 20x each.

But I'll see what AKM thinks and hopes he can accept this.

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

It'd probably be better to use the scans in the official translation of the series. Can't seem to link the site where I found these though

I've seen the official ones and these aren't far off, I already am working with the official ones like seen in the OP, but you can see that the ones in the OP aren't working anymore. These are just the available ones since I can't get my hands on the high quality ones. If you got them, tell me the name of the site.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

I've seen the official ones and these aren't far off, I already am working with the official ones like seen in the OP, but you can see that the ones in the OP aren't working anymore. These are just the available ones since I can't get my hands on the high quality ones. If you got them, tell me the name of the site.

You should post the scans on imgur rather than doing that directly, since these may not be blocked

 

[Spinoirr]

Yeah the scans for dragon ball characters need to be updated because most of them link to places that don't work anymore

 

[AKM sama]

Uh....

I don't need to be retold what the thread is about. I already know and I looked over all the evidence too. And this is, once again, not the issue I brought up in my post. I am only talking about speed and not the other scaling being brought up. Changing the topic doesn't help.

So I will summarize once again.

Piccolo blows up the moon in the beginning of Saiyan saga = 0.54c

Post-King Kai training base Goku scales above that, so > 0.54c

Kaioken x3 Goku fighting Vegeta > 1.62c

Kaioken x4 Goku > 2.16c

Post-gravity training base Goku scales above that, so > 2.16c

Namek saga Kaioken x2 Goku > 4.32c

Goku has shown to be able to use Kaioken x4 by this point.

Namek saga Kaioken x4 Goku > 8.64c

Goku was confident that he can withstand Kaioken x10 after the gravity training.

Hypothetical Namek saga Kaioken x10 Goku > 21.6c

After this point, Goku becomes stronger than Freeza's feat of blowing up planet Vegeta. There is no speed feat to back up this much increase in speed. But there is Freeza's AP feat that Goku scales to. The problem with using the AP feat is that you are neglecting that Goku got a zenkai and a training boost in between this scaling. So his AP increase does not only come from kaioken multipliers, but it also has two unquantifiable increases. So the AP feat does not fully support the validity of the multipliers because of two unknown factors. And thus, you shouldn't use it.

What you can use is Freeza's own attack speed at this point, which is also relativistic. And does not help the case.

Beyond this point, there exists no feat that supports the following numbers:

Post-Zenkai base Goku scales above that, so > 8.64c, likely 21.6c

Kaioken x20 Goku > 172.8c, likely 432c

Super Saiyan (x50) Goku > 432c, likely 1080c

So all these numbers are even more questionable since they have 0 backing.



Now we can do one of two things from here:

Either we downgrade the speed to previous levels because there is no evidence backing up SSJ Goku becoming MFTL, let alone MFTL+. And AP feats can't be used because they don't explicitly come from multipliers alone because of unquantifiable increases in between from zenkais and trainings.

Or, we can honor the original compromise solution reached in the first speed thread and leave the speed as it is without trying to stack more on something that is already so flimsy and questionable and has 0 evidence backing it up.

 

[Orange]

Or use established multiplier, scaling and statements that determine which is stronger and which is weaker and by how much.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

They already elaborated the key phrase was also our issues. There is evidence of multiple steps of each character being stronger/faster in their base forms than the previous character was in SSJ multiplier. Also, if the other thread goes through, the only thing removed on that list is the SSJ multiplier and downgrading the big list back to Massively FTL except for SSJ Buu sagas who then have SSJ Teen Gohan and Super Perfect Cell upscale from accordingly. And we'd still be stacking 20x multipliers instead of the 50x ones.

Also, I wouldn't say 0 evidence. 0 on panel demonstrations yes and multiple statement based evidence is obviously not as preferred as on panel feats based evidence. But the former is still sort of evidence technically speaking.

 

[AKM sama]

No, we'd still be not using so much multiplier stacking with 0 evidence. There is no feat supporting SSJ Goku being MFTL. What "statement based evidence" are you referring to? Is there a statement about SSJ Goku being MFTL?

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

No, we'd still be not using so much multiplier stacking with 0 evidence. There is no feat supporting SSJ Goku being MFTL. What "statement based evidence" are you referring to? Is there a statement about SSJ Goku being MFTL?

0 evidence? Why would I need to provide evidence for something that's entirely built on facts? Both the scaling and the multiplier are true and already accepted here. If this is questionable then what's the point of a multiplier at all?

 

[Orange]

No, we'd still be not using so much multiplier stacking with 0 evidence. There is no feat supporting SSJ Goku being MFTL. What "statement based evidence" are you referring to? Is there a statement about SSJ Goku being MFTL?

Multipliers are accepted, the scaling is accepted, it's a matter of implementing both.....

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Statements about Post Zenkai Goku being stronger in base form than he was his strongest Kaioken form, followed by next gen being stronger in base form than he previously was in SSJ form and the list goes on. That's what I mean by statement based evidence.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

No, we'd still be not using so much multiplier stacking with 0 evidence. There is no feat supporting SSJ Goku being MFTL. What "statement based evidence" are you referring to? Is there a statement about SSJ Goku being MFTL?

The multipliers are very explicit in the story, are accepted, and the scaling is undeniable. All of those statements and feats have plenty of scans and evidence to support them, so if one character is shown to be faster than another character's SSJ form in base, then his speed would logically upscale from that, because if A > B > C > D, and C = 50 * D, then B > 50 * D, and A > 50 * C > 2500 * D

Now replace A,B,C,D with SSJ Vegito, Base Vegito, SSJ Goku and Base Goku respectively, and you get a part of the scaling you can't deny

 

[AKM sama]

From the multipliers page:

If multiple multipliers are to be stacked, that are used upon each other, the evidence for the end result is equal to the total multiplier applied to the best feat. That means that if, for example, a character has a times 10 multiplier and later on gets another times 50 multiplier, than the evidence necessary to use both multipliers to get a statistic, is like that of a times 500 multiplier, as the best feat would be increased by a factor of 500 in that case.

Now I have just one thing to ask. After all this stacking, the final multiplier for SSJ Goku's speed comes out to be 2000x and his final speed becomes MFTL+. As you just read, the burden of evidence increases with the amount of multiplier stacking. Now I won't ask for an exact 2000x faster speed feat than Piccolo's attack. And I won't ask for any evidence that suggests Goku is MFTL+. But even if you can give me a feat that is 1000x faster than Piccolo's attack or is in the MFTL territory, I'd happily count it as sufficient supporting evidence for this increase.

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:GodlyCharmander/Manga_Piccolo_is_kinda_fast
https://read.mangadad.com/Mangadad/dragon-ball/chapter-446/13.jpg
These are two MFTL feats though the second is uncalced.

 

[AKM sama]

That's from DBS, where Piccolo has received many boosts. I am asking for evidence up till the Freeza saga.

Me running at a speed of 10 m/s now wouldn't be evidence of me running at the same speed when I was 3, would it? If I want to prove that I can run at 10 m/s when I was 3, then I'd need to show feats of me doing it while I was 3 or younger than 3.

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

That's from DBS, where Piccolo has received many boosts. I am asking for evidence up till the Freeza saga.

Me running at a speed of 10 m/s now wouldn't be evidence of me running at the same speed when I was 3, would it? If I want to prove that I can run at 10 m/s when I was 3, then I'd need to show feats of me doing it while I was 3 or younger than 3.

That's supporting for the solar system level guys since this piccolo scales below the majority of them. Remember the dudes who scale to 57000c? Piccolo casually performed this feat, which is really consistent because he scales to that value. Kid buu feat is also mftl, but I don't have a value for it.
SSJ Goku also reacted to the namek DBs which went from namek to earth in like, a minute this is also mftl+ but it's also calcless.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Yeah, I think the DBS Manga example is not particularly good.

But whenever that rule is brought up, it appears devoid of key phrases. I'm pretty sure the evidence of Frieza saga Goku being stronger/faster than 3rd form Frieza who is in turn easily stronger/faster than Kaioken 4x Ginyu saga Goku and possibly stronger faster than the hypothetical 10x Kaioken Goku is far too in our faces to strait up ignore. It's just as blatant as Base Ginyu saga Goku being many times stronger/faster than Kaioken x4 Vegeta saga Goku. And the rest are also in our faces accordingly.

 

[AKM sama]

I'm pretty sure the evidence of Frieza saga Goku being stronger/faster than 3rd form Frieza who is in turn easily stronger/faster than Kaioken 4x Ginyu saga Goku and possibly stronger faster than the hypothetical 10x Kaioken Goku is far too in our faces to strait up ignore.

It's not being ignored. Whatever you said is correct. The scaling checks out.

And I am glad you agree that the example being brought up from DBS manga is invalid here as I already explained why.

But since I have not received what I asked for, as per the demands of our standards, I will ask again. If someone can show me evidence (in form of feats or something that doesn't hinge on multipliers) of SSJ Goku until the end of Freeza saga, even being 1000 times faster than Piccolo's feat, I will gladly take it as acceptable supporting evidence for claiming his speed increased by 2000 times.

Well, even if the evidence shows someone from the Freeza saga being 500 times faster than Piccolo's feat, I will consider it acceptable too. I shouldn't be so lenient but considering DB is one of my favorite verses, I am a bit lenient with it.



In case such evidence doesn't exist, then we still have the two choices.

Either, downgrade the speed based on lack of evidence, (this would be the just way of doing things)

Or, leave it as it is and not try to push for an even higher number on an already unbacked number. (this would be the lenient way of doing things)

 

[Antvasima]

AKM makes sense to me above. A downgrade is probably best then.

 

[Orange]

AKM makes sense to me above. A downgrade is probably best then.

How? Are you both suggesting we should drop official multipliers, canon scaling because "muh speed too high". Actually, can the opposing side give us an argument to why we shouldn't use the scaling and multipliers besides "muh speed too high".

 

[Antvasima]

Well, the other side can still try to show the evidence that AKM asked for.

 

[Orange]

Well, the other side can still try to show the evidence that AKM asked for.

The evidence for what? Multipliers, they are currently accepted and in the verse page, the scaling? There are numerous statement that shows which is faster, and how much power are they using to dictate thier speed.
Actually, why don't AKM gives an argument to why we shouldn't use multipliers that are accepted, and scaling that is accepted, without mentioning the lazy argument of "muh speed".

 

[Antvasima]

You need to try to be more respectful/less antagonistic towards AKM.