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Dragon Ball Z Manga Power Scaling

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FluffyCreatureZ said:
No. I am busy right now so I apologize for the delay in finishing editing the profiles so leave them open till I finish. After that we can discuss whatever akmman wants to discuss.
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@FluffyCreatureZ

Will you have the time to finish this soon? Tell me here afterwards, so I can close the controversial currently unlocked profile pages again.

Also, @AKM sama , I would still appreciate your input here when you find the time.
 
Antvasima said:
@FluffyCreatureZ

Will you have the time to finish this soon? Tell me here afterwards, so I can close the controversial currently unlocked profile pages again.

Also, @AKM sama , I would still appreciate your input here when you find the time.
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Sorry, the past week I've been very busy irl but hopefully today I'll be a little free. I will try to finish it as soon as possible.
Also, open the page "Son Goten".
 
Spinoirr said:
yeah that's fine

edit: we should probably mention the fact that the god forms scale above beerus and god gokus shock-wave
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Perhaps, but that should get calculated. I added that Goku scales above vegito in SSG in the justification to make it clear what value he scales to as he is now not valueless.
I don't know what to do with the TOP characters with no justifications though, should I put them in unknown or just not bother with them.
 
FluffyCreatureZ said:
Perhaps, but that should get calculated. I added that Goku scales above vegito in SSG in the justification to make it clear what value he scales to as he is now not valueless.
I don't know what to do with the TOP characters with no justifications though, should I put them in unknown or just not bother with them.
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If they scale above Beerus (before recon or Beerus training) should definitely scale to Champa who got to the land of the kais from the mortal realm in a second during the start of the super manga However the ones that are featless should be unknown
 
I'm finally done editing the profiles. I apologize for the delay.
Only 2 things are left.
1. We do something about the TOP profiles that have no justifications, either suggest what to do with them or leave them for another time.
2. Akmman edits his blog with the new multipliers.
 
FluffyCreatureZ said:
I'm finally done editing the profiles. I apologize for the delay.
Only 2 things are left.
1. We do something about the TOP profiles that have no justifications, either suggest what to do with them or leave them for another time.
2. Akmman edits his blog with the new multipliers.
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We shoul do the CRT for Manga Bog Shockwaves once for all, for the sake of fairness lol.
 
LephyrTheRevanchist said:
Weren't you told not to use the far higher since it implies they could scale to infinite?
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Ah I figured out that it's only like that when the higher is in the tier itself.
So "MFTL+, likely higher" bad.
"MFTL+, higher with ..." good.
I even checked and saw profiles already using this format.
Besides they should scale to infinite.
 
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I hope I'm not annoying with this question, but, who would be willing to do a CRT for the manga Shockwaves?
 
Can somebody explain what we currently need to discuss and do here please?
 
Also, should I re-lock any pages that have already been edited?
 
Antvasima said:
Can somebody explain what we currently need to discuss and do here please?
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Here
FluffyCreatureZ said:
Only 2 things are left.
1. We do something about the TOP profiles that have no justifications, either suggest what to do with them or leave them for another time.
2. Akmman edits his blog with the new multipliers.
Click to expand...
Antvasima said:
Also, should I re-lock any pages that have already been edited?
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You can but there are still the TOP fodder profiles like I said before.
 
God900 said:
I know but @FluffyCreatureZ is the one behind these DBZ speed upgrades, so his help is needed for that.
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I guess we can calc the shockwaves by using the radius of the universe from it's edge then assume a time frame, maybe use the same one from the anime. But then both the anime and manga would scale to the same value lol.
There's also a feat in the same chapter where Goku's kamehameha illuminates inter planetary space in like 1 second so we could get that calced too. Just request them in the calculations thread like apple said.
 
FluffyCreatureZ said:
I guess we can calc the shockwaves by using the radius of the universe from it's edge then assume a time frame, maybe use the same one from the anime. But then both the anime and manga would scale to the same value lol.
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Now that i think about it, what was the reason why the Anime DBS don't use the shockwave to determinate the speed of BoG SSjG Goku?
 
Antvasima said:
Also, @AKM sama , it seems like we still need your help here:
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Sorry, as you know, I wasn't active for the past few days.

I don't have much else to say besides what I have already said before. The kaioken and SSJ multipliers take the speed from relativistic in Saiyan saga to MFTL+ in Freeza saga. There is no speed feat to support such a massive multiplier. But fortunately, there is an AP feat by Freeza and the multiplier is same for both, so that provides a bit of support. I'd argue this is still iffy because we are using AP to justify speed, but whatever.

An even massive multiplier is being suggested for Buu saga which increases the burden of proof, and unfortunately, there is no feat in that saga that supports it. Scaling isn't supporting evidence, feats are. I most definitely cannot agree to such a big jump without sufficient backing. So this is a hard no from me.

On another note, Zamasu Chan brought up an issue with SSJ multiplier being used for speed a couple weeks ago in a conversation with me. So either him or I will probably create a thread addressing that soon-ish.

That is all I have to say. Sorry for the delayed response. I was busy irl.
 
AKM sama said:
Sorry, as you know, I wasn't active for the past few days.

I don't have much else to say besides what I have already said before. The kaioken and SSJ multipliers take the speed from relativistic in Saiyan saga to MFTL+ in Freeza saga. There is no speed feat to support such a massive multiplier. But fortunately, there is an AP feat by Freeza and the multiplier is same for both, so that provides a bit of support. I'd argue this is still iffy because we are using AP to justify speed, but whatever.

An even massive multiplier is being suggested for Buu saga which increases the burden of proof, and unfortunately, there is no feat in that saga that supports it. Scaling isn't supporting evidence, feats are. I most definitely cannot agree to such a big jump without sufficient backing. So this is a hard no from me.

On another note, Zamasu Chan brought up an issue with SSJ multiplier being used for speed a couple weeks ago in a conversation with me. So either him or I will probably create a thread addressing that soon-ish.

That is all I have to say. Sorry for the delayed response. I was busy irl.
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MFTL+ ratings are supported by a AP increase too. Base Goku in the buu saga going Super saiyan takes him higher into large star and boost his speed by 50x but super perfect cell scales above him and he has the solar system level feat. So that is definitely supported by a feat. And it's even supported by a MFTL+ feat in super.
The other multipliers are also supported by feats such as kid buu galaxy busting over time for AP. The super speed feats also support the very high values for speed.
And regardless I completely disagree with not using the multipliers because the numbers are too large.
The scaling is accepted and facts and the multiplier is accepted and facts, but using the multiplier is not cool...? So we use the SSJ multiplier in the frieza arc, but when say vegito transforms into a SSJ he just gets a bunch of >>> and not the actual multiplier. I do not agree with that at all.
 
Base Goku in the buu saga going Super saiyan takes him higher into large star and boost his speed by 50x but super perfect cell scales above him and he has the solar system level feat.
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Powerscaling isn't supporting evidence, feats are. Of course Goku and company would grow stronger as the series progresses. For the multiplier to be supported, there needs to be a direct feat in the same range at the same time. In short, there needs to be a direct feat in Buu saga that supports the multiplier for Buu saga. Unfortunately there isn't. You're also neglecting increases from training, zenkai and other transformations that led to SPC's solar system statement. You can't say all of that was because of multiplier boost.

The other multipliers are also supported by feats such as kid buu galaxy busting over time for AP.
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I think we are talking about manga only here. Kid Buu isn't 4-A in the manga for busting a galaxy over time.

The super speed feats also support the very high values for speed.
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DBS speeds come from their own boosts. They are not supporting evidence for anything in Z.

And regardless I completely disagree with not using the multipliers because the numbers are too large.
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Which is okay. You don't have to agree with every wiki policy there is, and neither do I. But it is a wiki policy. A massive multiplier definitely needs supporting evidence because, yes, the numbers are too large and require evidence in the same proportion.

I would have also proposed to wait before concluding this thread, seeing as Zamasu and/or I were planning to create a thread soon which would somewhat affect the results of this thread, but I guess the changes were already made and I was too late?
 
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AKM sama said:
A massive multiplier definitely needs supporting evidence because, yes, the numbers are too large and require evidence in the same proportion.
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The Multiplier for Base Vegito and Buu Saga SSj1 Goku its always the same one accepted and used for the Frieza Saga SSj1 Goku.

And the reason why its applied in those cases its because it was proven that Buu Saga Base Goku its at least comparable if not above Cell Saga SSj1 Goku, same with Base Vegito.

We are not made up random stuff, we are just apply things that have already been accepted previously.
 
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AKM, even Darkdragomedeus and the rest of the staff agrees with this, you are the only one arguing against this. This has already been accepted long time ago. You can't just suddenly appear in mid of the editings of a thread which it's already accepted.
 
The multiplier for Super Saiyan being 50 times never changes, whether it's between Frieza Saga Goku, Gotenks and even Vegito. The feats show clearly that characters should scale since they can directly scale to people who done those feats

It's like how in AP you can be 5-B by busting a planet, but you also get the tier if you beat someone who can do said feat. Same goes for speed. Scaling chains exists for a reason, and this is because the notion of if: A > B > C then A > C, exists

Besides, all of those increases are supported with direct statements and feats done by other characters (For example, Base Goku in the Buu Saga is stronger than Shin, who is much stronger than Frieza, and Frieza Saga SSJ Goku by extention. That obviously means that Base Goku's speed would be >>> Frieza Saga SSJ Goku's speed, and as a SSJ, his speed would scale accordingly. Likewise, Base Vegito is >>> SSJ Goku, so Base Vegito's speed would be also >>> SSJ Goku's speed, and with SSJ Vegito, his speed would scale accordingly)

Assuming Base Goku in Frieza Saga has a speed of 1 (for convenience sake here)

Base Goku (Frieza Saga) = 1

Frieza Saga SSJ Goku = 50

Shin >>>> 50

Base Goku (Buu Saga) >>>>> 50

SSJ Goku >>>>> 2500

Base Vegito >>>>>> 2500

SSJ Vegito >>>>>>> 125,000
 
AKM sama said:
Powerscaling isn't supporting evidence, feats are. Of course Goku and company would grow stronger as the series progresses. For the multiplier to be supported, there needs to be a direct feat in the same range at the same time. In short, there needs to be a direct feat in Buu saga that supports the multiplier for Buu saga. Unfortunately there isn't. You're also neglecting increases from training, zenkai and other transformations that led to SPC's solar system statement. You can't say all of that was because of multiplier boost.


I think we are talking about manga only here. Kid Buu isn't 4-A in the manga for busting a galaxy over time.


DBS speeds come from their own boosts. They are not supporting evidence for anything in Z.


Which is okay. You don't have to agree with every wiki policy there is, and neither do I. But it is a wiki policy. A massive multiplier definitely needs supporting evidence because, yes, the numbers are too large and require evidence in the same proportion.

I would have also proposed to wait before concluding this thread, seeing as Zamasu and/or I were planning to create a thread soon which would somewhat affect the results of this thread, but I guess the changes were already made and I was too late?
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And cells solar system feat isn't a feat? There is a multiplier in the buu saga that sits between the cell saga scaling, cell saga goku = shin < base goku < 50x = SSJ Goku buu saga < cells solar system feat. This blatantly supports it, what are you even going on about?
Never mind, I thought kid buu destroying a galaxy in a few years was in the manga but apparently it was only stated that he destroyed several hundred planets.
Nah it's still supporting because it doesn't make sense if they go from barely MFTL+ to quadrillions of times FTL. Plus chou doesn't even scale to a value so they scale to the Z values which are actually consistent with their feats.

Why would I need evidence to prove something entirely built on facts?! The scaling and multipliers are undeniable so why do I have to support them with feats? That defeats the purpose of a multiplier.
Yes you were too late I finished the profiles already.
 
God900 said:
AKM, even Darkdragomedeus and the rest of the staff agrees with this, you are the only one arguing against this. This has already been accepted long time ago. You can't just suddenly appear in mid of the editings of a thread which it's already accepted.
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He should be able to, actually. Is it somewhat annoying, inconvenient, and frustrating that he's done so? Sure, and I can understand that, but it's Christmas time. If he was busy dealing with real life stuff, especially in a time where practically everyone and their mother are busy, there should at least be some understanding. Besides, isn't it better to maybe tackle his disagreements in this thread rather than creating an entirely separate thread for it?

Also this is bordering on an appeal to popularity.
 
Because he was busy, perhaps?

Not sure why that means he doesn't have the right to disagree (not that I agree with him or anything)
 
ShakeResounding said:
He should be able to, actually. Is it somewhat annoying, inconvenient, and frustrating that he's done so? Sure, and I can understand that, but it's Christmas time. If he was busy dealing with real life stuff, especially in a time where practically everyone and their mother are busy, there should at least be some understanding. Besides, isn't it better to maybe tackle his disagreements in this thread rather than creating an entirely separate thread for it?

Also this is bordering on an appeal to popularity.
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I'm going to agree with God900 here. AKM was on the thread even when it begun two months ago, but then dissapeared from the thread and came back after everything was finished with the profiles. So yeah, he did came late.
 
I'm not going to derail further in a thread that's already long enough. But let's just say I find the prospect of gatekeeping somebody from commenting on a thread to be very weird regardless of how "late" they are if it's within reason (or how much they annoyingly ignore it, we aren't oblivious), especially when you're basically asking for another thread on the same matter to be created. And I say this as a person who agrees with the OP.
 
So do the DB pages need to have their statistics adjusted based on what AKM said, or should the remaining edits for this revision be carried out now?
 
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