Dragon ball universe crt

[TheGodOfICE777]

i believe that i already answered those, if the things themselves are not in scale, why would anything else be? plus as i showed in the op, the dbs anime does not use that map when we actually see the universe from outside

Because those things in the afterlife are that big to show where the locations are which shouldn’t have an effect on the shape of the universe and realms

 

[Tarang123]

I do have a quick question, but why are we using visual representation against actual statements. It's not like the realms established in Z have been retconned. The afterlife still exists, heaven and hell still exist, the kaioshin realm still exists. Why exactly are we removing the map?

Edit: My bad, I misunderstood the point of the thread. I'll stay neutral

 

[Omegabronic]

Because those things in the afterlife are that big to show where the locations are which shouldn’t have an effect on the shape of the universe and realms

yes it should, if it has this big of an contradiction to the show, why would it still be used to calc the distance between realms when the size in clearly inconsistent in the map? why would the things like snake way and king kai's planet be that out of scale and not anything else like the distance or size of the realms themselves?

 

[TheGodOfICE777]

yes it should, if it has this big of an contradiction to the show, why would it still be used to calc the distance between realms when the size in clearly inconsistent in the map? why would the things like snake way and king kai's planet be that out of scale and not anything else like the distance or size of the realms themselves?

Because as AKM said above snakeway and the stuff in the afterlife is inconsistent so only the realms are calced you can find his comment in here https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:AKM_sama/Dragon_Ball_Super:_Whis'_Speed_Feat

 

[Omegabronic]

I do have a quick question, but why are we using visual representation against actual statements. It's not like the realms established in Z have been retconned. The afterlife still exists, heaven and hell still exist, the kaioshin realm still exists. Why exactly are we removing the map?

these things can exist without the map, but it is mostly because the map contradicts the series with it sizes for things, it is not on scale in size so it shouldn't be used in calculations, plus it contradicts how the dbs anime shows the universes to be

Because as AKM said above snakeway and the stuff in the afterlife is inconsistent so only the realms are calced you can find his comment in here https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:AKM_sama/Dragon_Ball_Super:_Whis'_Speed_Feat

i am questioning the logic behind that while referencing what he said, if the so many things are inconsistent in size, why wouldn't the realms themselves be?


btw, gonna go sleep now, not gonna answer until tomorrow

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

I do have a quick question, but why are we using visual representation against actual statements. It's not like the realms established in Z have been retconned. The afterlife still exists, heaven and hell still exist, the kaioshin realm still exists. Why exactly are we removing the map?

Because it just went crazy today and now we're discarding everything, even the map created by Akira, and even the newest guides are represented with the same map and even manga, well.

 

[Tarang123]

these things can exist without the map, but it is mostly because the map contradicts the series with it sizes for things, it is not on scale in size so it shouldn't be used in calculations, plus it contradicts how the dbs anime shows the universes to be

In what way? Yes, it's not visibly shown in the universe depictions, but I believe I already said this earlier, but this could just be a case of the animators not wanting to show too much detail and just giving the vague idea of a universe. As a separate question, where would these different realms exist. What would they be on the images that you posted?

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

these things can exist without the map, but it is mostly because the map contradicts the series with it sizes for things, it is not on scale in size so it shouldn't be used in calculations, plus it contradicts how the dbs anime shows the universes to be


i am questioning the logic behind that while referencing what he said, if the so many things are inconsistent in size, why wouldn't the realms themselves be?


btw, gonna go sleep now, not gonna answer until tomorrow

It does not contradict, the guides talk about the size, does it show me where the guide is contracted?

 

[TheGodOfICE777]

these things can exist without the map, but it is mostly because the map contradicts the series with it sizes for things, it is not on scale in size so it shouldn't be used in calculations, plus it contradicts how the dbs anime shows the universes to be


i am questioning the logic behind that while referencing what he said, if the so many things are inconsistent in size, why wouldn't the realms themselves be?


btw, gonna go sleep now, not gonna answer until tomorrow

The universe depiction can be answered as it being a simplification of the globe as even other canon sources and guides for the dbs anime prove there’s no retcon

I’ll quote AKM’s logic behind it again “
The snake way and other planets are obviously not drawn to scale, everybody knows that and they haven't been used in this calculation. The main reason for drawing the map was to make people grasp the atmosphere of the DB universe easily and that is conveyed by the relative positions of different objects and the basic structure.

Clearly, Enma's palace is in the middle surrounded by 4 Snake Ways, and Kaioshin realm is outside the ball, orbiting it. You will find that nothing inconsistent has been used to scale or determine anything here and the objects not drawn to scale have absolutely no influence on anything that is calculated here.”

 

[Omegabronic]

my last answer for today, good night everyone until tomorrow

In what way? Yes, it's not visibly shown in the universe depictions, but I believe I already said this earlier, but this could just be a case of the animators not wanting to show too much detail and just giving the vague idea of a universe.

well you would need to show evidence of this, also even without that the map is still not usable per point 2 of the op

As a separate question, where would these different realms exist. What would they be on the images that you posted?

they would simply not be visible from outside, either by being too small or by we already seeing them but not reconizing them, i answered that more clearly in the op with links and scans

It does not contradict, the guides talk about the size, does it show me where the guide is contracted?

"2: the map is clearly not in scale, and you can clearly see the map makes the snake way, which is only 1.000.000 km long, is seemingly 2x the universe in height if put in a horizontal position, also king kai's planet, which is extremely small, is via this map only 14.25x smaller than the entire living universe, so even in the manga, it shouldn't be used to calc since it is clearly out of scale in size."

The universe depiction can be answered as it being a simplification of the globe

your evidence for this is?

as even other canon sources and guides for the dbs anime prove there’s no retcon

and the dbs anime itself shows that this is not the case, guides are secondary cannon and the series gets priority over it

I’ll quote AKM’s logic behind it again “
The snake way and other planets are obviously not drawn to scale, everybody knows that and they haven't been used in this calculation. The main reason for drawing the map was to make people grasp the atmosphere of the DB universe easily and that is conveyed by the relative positions of different objects and the basic structure.

Clearly, Enma's palace is in the middle surrounded by 4 Snake Ways, and Kaioshin realm is outside the ball, orbiting it. You will find that nothing inconsistent has been used to scale or determine anything here and the objects not drawn to scale have absolutely no influence on anything that is calculated here.”

and this again does not answer my points, i questioned this logic so quoting it again doesn't do much for me

anyway, good night for now, until tomorrow

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

my last answer for today, good night everyone until tomorrow


well you would need to show evidence of this, also even without that the map is still not usable per point 2 of the op


they would simply not be visible from outside, either by being too small or by we already seeing them but not reconizing them, i answered that more clearly in the op with links and scans


"2: the map is clearly not in scale, and you can clearly see the map makes the snake way, which is only 1.000.000 km long, is seemingly 2x the universe in height if put in a horizontal position, also king kai's planet, which is extremely small, is via this map only 14.25x smaller than the entire living universe, so even in the manga, it shouldn't be used to calc since it is clearly out of scale in size."


your evidence for this is?


and the dbs anime itself shows that this is not the case, guides are secondary cannon and the series gets priority over it


and this again does not answer my points, i questioned this logic so quoting it again doesn't do much for me

anyway, good night for now, until tomorrow

But that's not even a contradiction, show me a real argument, what does the serpent's path have to do with the other realms? Each one has its size defined according to the presented guides, really who is using the serpent's path to refute the other planes?

 

[Tarang123]

well you would need to show evidence of this, also even without that the map is still not usable per point 2 of the op

Why? We already have evidence of these same realms being directly referenced again and again. Nothing about the cosmology has changed (at least, for individual universes), just that now we have a look at the entire thing.

they would simply not be visible from outside, either by being too small or by we already seeing them but not reconizing them, i answered that more clearly in the op with links and scans

Zero evidence that they're too small. This requires a whole lot of reaching a lack of hard evidence.

"2: the map is clearly not in scale, and you can clearly see the map makes the snake way, which is only 1.000.000 km long, is seemingly 2x the universe in height if put in a horizontal position, also king kai's planet, which is extremely small, is via this map only 14.25x smaller than the entire living universe, so even in the manga, it shouldn't be used to calc since it is clearly out of scale in size."

I don't remember these things ever actually being a part of the calculations. Disregarding the model because things aren't in scale is stupid.

 

[TheGodOfICE777]

my last answer for today, good night everyone until tomorrow


well you would need to show evidence of this, also even without that the map is still not usable per point 2 of the op


they would simply not be visible from outside, either by being too small or by we already seeing them but not reconizing them, i answered that more clearly in the op with links and scans


"2: the map is clearly not in scale, and you can clearly see the map makes the snake way, which is only 1.000.000 km long, is seemingly 2x the universe in height if put in a horizontal position, also king kai's planet, which is extremely small, is via this map only 14.25x smaller than the entire living universe, so even in the manga, it shouldn't be used to calc since it is clearly out of scale in size."


your evidence for this is?


and the dbs anime itself shows that this is not the case, guides are secondary cannon and the series gets priority over it


and this again does not answer my points, i questioned this logic so quoting it again doesn't do much for me

anyway, good night for now, until tomorrow

The macrocosm isn’t detailed at all any shows none of the realms just because it’s shown doesn’t mean it’s accurate plus other canon sources like the manga and the guides give a detailed overview of the macrocosm

That’s why I said it was a simplified version of the macrocosm

Basically he’s saying the only inconsistent thing is snakeway and only depicted to give the relative positions of things in the map and the things not drawn to scale (anything within the afterlife) wasn’t used in the Calc and the living universe being as big as the observable universe and then using that to Calc the entire afterlife and kaioshin realm is used as they make up the main 3 components of the macrocosm but it would be cool if we could get AKM’s opinion on this

 

[Reiner04]

I think U7 actual size is indeed unknown but we do know it's bigger than observable universe, get the values in "Atleast [[Whatever the calc shows]]" I suppose.

 

[Damage3245]

This point about Earth and the observable Universe in relation to the map doesn't make a lit if sense to me. Why exactly is that valid?

 

[Ruphas_Mafahl123]

Ok, in DBS manga we got a structure of how an average macrocosm looks like, which is equal to the map shown in guides.

So I prupose leaving the Manga out of this, and just focus on the DBS Anime.

 

[Ruphas_Mafahl123]

See, the main Canon in the manga uses. So it's usable for manga, at least.

Anime seems to be another can of worms.

 

[Damage3245]

Ok, in DBS manga we got a structure of how an average macrocosm looks like, which is equal to the map shown in guides.

So I prupose leaving the Manga out of this, and just focus on the DBS Anime.

That doesn't really address any of the raised issues.

 

[Ruphas_Mafahl123]

That doesn't really address any of the raised issues.

The main problem is. Authors already portrayed a structure of the macrocosm. It's that way, creating out our own speculations of how it looks like for the Manga is just a No-go.

There is no contradictions, for how it looks like in the manga.

We can't just go and say..... "Eh well, it doesn't make sense for us, so we gonna create our own structure that looks more accurate for our own criteria"


The main issue is the Anime. Again, not the manga.




We can't just dismiss what the author portrayed in the main Canon, more when we don't have another alternative of model.

 

[Damage3245]

It's not just about how it looks, it's about how applicable it is in the calcs. The calcs currently force our own assumptions about how that macrocosm works, like assuming that the distance between the Earth and the Supreme World of the Kais is to scale outside of the living world. Ignoring how thinks outside of the living world are not drawn to scale there.

 

[Omegabronic]

But that's not even a contradiction, show me a real argument, what does the serpent's path have to do with the other realms? Each one has its size defined according to the presented guides, really who is using the serpent's path to refute the other planes?

If these things are so out of scale, who is to say the realms aren't, why would the realms be in scale when everything else isn't

Why? We already have evidence of these same realms being directly referenced again and again. Nothing about the cosmology has changed (at least, for individual universes), just that now we have a look at the entire thing.

The realms existing is not a factor here, they do exist in the universe, they are just not visible in dbs anime version of the universe

Zero evidence that they're too small. This requires a whole lot of reaching a lack of hard evidence.

The fact that we don't see them from outside the universe?

I don't remember these things ever actually being a part of the calculations. Disregarding the model because things aren't in scale is stupid.

If they aren't in scale, why would anything else be?

The macrocosm isn’t detailed at all any shows none of the realms just because it’s shown doesn’t mean it’s accurate plus other canon sources like the manga and the guides give a detailed overview of the macrocosm

The guides are secondary cannon, and again the realms not being visible just means that they are not visible just means that they are not visible from outside, is therr anything in the main canon, no guides, that would suggwst that they would be visible?

That’s why I said it was a simplified version of the macrocosm

Read above

Basically he’s saying the only inconsistent thing is snakeway and only depicted to give the relative positions of things in the map and the things not drawn to scale (anything within the afterlife) wasn’t used in the Calc and the living universe being as big as the observable universe and then using that to Calc the entire afterlife and kaioshin realm is used as they make up the main 3 components of the macrocosm but it would be cool if we could get AKM’s opinion on this

If the tge things are not in scale, why would the living realm or the other realms be? Because if they aren't then calcing with it doesn't work

Ok, in DBS manga we got a structure of how an average macrocosm looks like, which is equal to the map shown in guides.

So I prupose leaving the Manga out of this, and just focus on the DBS Anime.

Covered in point 2 of the op:
"2: the map is clearly not in scale, and you can clearly see the map makes the snake way, which is only 1.000.000 km long, is seemingly 2x the universe in height if put in a horizontal position, also king kai's planet, which is extremely small, is via this map only 14.25x smaller than the entire living universe, so even in the manga, it shouldn't be used to calc since it is clearly out of scale in size."

 

[Ruphas_Mafahl123]

Covered in point 2 of the op:
"2: the map is clearly not in scale, and you can clearly see the map makes the snake way, which is only 1.000.000 km long, is seemingly 2x the universe in height if put in a horizontal position, also king kai's planet, which is extremely small, is via this map only 14.25x smaller than the entire living universe, so even in the manga, it shouldn't be used to calc since it is clearly out of scale in size."

 

[Omegabronic]

That doesn't counter the problems pointed tho

 

[Damage3245]

Doesn't answer anything dude...

 

[Ruphas_Mafahl123]

That doesn't counter the problems pointed tho

No, but it shows that the manga already has an stablished macrocosm structure.

We can't just contradict the author here, otherwise we will just enter in the speculation territory and mess up everything.

So I rather stick with what the author has shown us.

 

[Damage3245]

No, but it shows that the manga already has a stablished macrocosm structure.

We can't just contradict the author here, otherwise we will just enter in the speculation territory and mess up everything.

So I rather stick with what the author has shown us.

Nobody is contradicting what the author has shown...

The CRT is to get rid of how it is currently used in the calcs.

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

If these things are so out of scale, who is to say the realms aren't, why would the realms be in scale when everything else isn't


The realms existing is not a factor here, they do exist in the universe, they are just not visible in dbs anime version of the universe


The fact that we don't see them from outside the universe?


If they aren't in scale, why would anything else be?


The guides are secondary cannon, and again the realms not being visible just means that they are not visible just means that they are not visible from outside, is therr anything in the main canon, no guides, that would suggwst that they would be visible?


Read above


If the tge things are not in scale, why would the living realm or the other realms be? Because if they aren't then calcing with it doesn't work


Covered in point 2 of the op:
"2: the map is clearly not in scale, and you can clearly see the map makes the snake way, which is only 1.000.000 km long, is seemingly 2x the universe in height if put in a horizontal position, also king kai's planet, which is extremely small, is via this map only 14.25x smaller than the entire living universe, so even in the manga, it shouldn't be used to calc since it is clearly out of scale in size."

I really don't understand you, the sizes are already defined by Akira toriyama himself, why are you using the serpent's path to refute every map?

I THINK YOU HAVE TO UNDERSTAND A LITTLE THING, THE PATH OF THE SERPENT DOESN'T REFUTE THE SIZE OF THE AFTERLIFE AND THE MAP, AKIRA HAS A LOT OF INTERVIEW SAYING ABOUT THE MAP ITSELF AND STILL YOU STAY IN IT, MAN, AND WE STILL SHOW THE MAP THAT IT IS USED TO REFER TO THE WHOLE MACROCOSM IN DBS ( ONE OF THE NEWEST GUIDES ) HOW DOES PATH OF THE SERPENT REFUTE AFTER LIFE AND SIZE? WOULD YOU LIKE TO PRESENT DESCENT ARGUMENTS?

ON WHAT BASIS DO YOU ACKNOWLEDGE THAT THE WAY OF THE SERPENT REFUTE THE MAP?

 

[Damage3245]

@LuffyRuffy46307 Quit it with the all caps and calm down. Not only does all caps make it look like you're shouting at the other person, nobody will take your seriously and will ignore your post.

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

@LuffyRuffy46307 Quit it with the all caps and calm down. Not only does all caps make it look like you're shouting at the other person, nobody will take your seriously and will ignore your post.

I'm calm, the keyboard that gave a crazy bug here, anyway.

 

[Damage3245]

I'm calm, the keyboard that gave a crazy bug here, anyway.

Stop joking around. There's no chance in Hell that your keyboard "had a bug" where you wrote in all caps, didn't notice it, and it only affected part of your post.

If you keep messing around on CRT's, you will be reported for repeated trolling.

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

Nobody is contradicting what the author has shown...

The CRT is to get rid of how it is currently used in the calcs.

But it is exactly contracting the author's idea by contracting the map itself, which he made to find it easier, the OP's arguments do not refute the map created by Akira toriyama and not even the serpent's argument, the Universe shown in the anime is a living Universe observed, it does not represent the whole macrocosm, and the path of the serpent does not refute the afterlife, which already has its size defined.

 

[Damage3245]

But it is exactly contracting the author's idea by contracting the map itself, which he made to find it easier, the OP's arguments do not refute the map created by Akira toriyama and not even the serpent's argument, the Universe shown in the anime is a living Universe observed, it does not represent the whole macrocosm, and the path of the serpent does not refute the afterlife, which already has its size defined.

Akira Toriyama has not told us that the entire map is to scale with the living world as the basis of that. In fact the objects repeatedly drawn not to scale contradict that assumption.

Neither has Akira Toriyama told us where the "observable Universe" is in relation to the map of the macrocosm. That too is an unnecessary assumption.

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

Stop joking around. There's no chance in Hell that your keyboard "had a bug" where you wrote in all caps, didn't notice it, and it only affected part of your post.

If you keep messing around on CRT's, you will be reported for repeated trolling.

Jeez dude, are you threatening me? Just because it bugged here? Be more fair, I'm not doing any trolling or whatever.

 

[Robo432343]

correct me if im wrong but are these some contradictions according to the macrocosm map?
we see king kai planet is bigger than supreme kai planet
we see mountains in hell bigger than supreme kai plane
we see snakeway in length is halfway the entire macrocosm
king yemma palace bigger than supreme kai planet and about 10% of the length of the macrocosm,heaven and grand kaio planet comparison, which is wrong since we see them actually compared to each other and it's nowhere near the same as the macrocosm implies

 

[Damage3245]

Jeez dude, are you threatening me? Just because it bugged here? Be more fair, I'm not doing any trolling or whatever.

No, I'm warning you. There is a difference between warning and threatening. And you have already been warned on this thread by other staff members besides me.

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

Akira Toriyama has not told us that the entire map is to scale with the living world as the basis of that. In fact the objects repeatedly drawn not to scale contradict that assumption.

Neither has Akira Toriyama told us where the "observable Universe" is in relation to the map of the macrocosm. That too is an unnecessary assumption.

I don't know where it contradicts, since the serpent's path does not refute, this argument contradicts something is getting old, could you please show me where it contradicts? Even because the other world has its own size, already mentioned several times in guides and in an interview with Akira toriyama, I don't see where you want to go with these arguments, but one thing does not refute the other.

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

correct me if im wrong but are these some contradictions according to the macrocosm map?
we see king kai planet is bigger than supreme kai planet
we see mountains in hell bigger than supreme kai plane
we see snakeway in length is halfway the entire macrocosm
king yemma palace bigger than supreme kai planet and about 10% of the length of the macrocosm,heaven and grand kaio planet comparison, which is wrong since we see them actually compared to each other and it's nowhere near the same as the macrocosm implies

I think that's the way of looking at it, but we have some confirmation of the Ema palace being the size of a solar system, about hell it's right, we guide it is said that it is even bigger than the sky itself, its width as we can see fills all that ball, which from below fills all the living

 

[SSJGeminiJJ]

Neither has Akira Toriyama told us where the "observable Universe" is in relation to the map of the macrocosm. That too is an unnecessary assumption.

He labeled it as a section of the bottom part.

 

[Omegabronic]

No, but it shows that the manga already has an stablished macrocosm structure.

We can't just contradict the author here, otherwise we will just enter in the speculation territory and mess up everything.

So I rather stick with what the author has shown us.

As damage said, even it uses the map, if the map itself is not on scale thrn we can't use to calc

I think that's the way of looking at it, but we have some confirmation of the Ema palace being the size of a solar system, about hell it's right, we guide it is said that it is even bigger than the sky itself, its width as we can see fills all that ball, which from below fills all the living

This was removed in a thread made by null, so moot point

I really don't understand you, the sizes are already defined by Akira toriyama himself, why are you using the serpent's path to refute every map?

I THINK YOU HAVE TO UNDERSTAND A LITTLE THING, THE PATH OF THE SERPENT DOESN'T REFUTE THE SIZE OF THE AFTERLIFE AND THE MAP, AKIRA HAS A LOT OF INTERVIEW SAYING ABOUT THE MAP ITSELF AND STILL YOU STAY IN IT, MAN, AND WE STILL SHOW THE MAP THAT IT IS USED TO REFER TO THE WHOLE MACROCOSM IN DBS ( ONE OF THE NEWEST GUIDES ) HOW DOES PATH OF THE SERPENT REFUTE AFTER LIFE AND SIZE? WOULD YOU LIKE TO PRESENT DESCENT ARGUMENTS?

ON WHAT BASIS DO YOU ACKNOWLEDGE THAT THE WAY OF THE SERPENT REFUTE THE MAP?

I will be repearing myself at this point i feel, if things like the kai's planets and the snake way are not in scale, why would anything else be? Answer this questiom directly please

 

[Damage3245]

He labeled it as a section of the bottom part.

You know that's not what I'm referring to? I'm referring to what is on the calc.