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Dragon Ball (Toei) GT upgrade (Redone)

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Maitreya said:
Ok so after checking over the thread I’d like to go over you disagreements and give my two cents on them. If I’ve misrepresented your position you can let me know.

Your disagreements:

1) with added context to the statement, Popo’s words about the room creating past present and future isn’t applicable the actual whole widespread universe.

- Valid. No disagreements unless OP provides better explanation/more evidence. This statements can be disregarded.

2) The words by the narrator in regards to goku and gohan being separated by space and time may not be so literally especially given added context with the manga and may be more poetic in nature.

- disagree. I feel the interpretation here would be too loose while the actual words by the narrator seem straightforward. However I agree with your notion in the previous thread that this statement alone should not be definitive evidence of 2-C cosmology and would be best used as a supporting statement. Overall this statement I find tone supporting evidence however not definitive evidence. More proof would be required.

3) Shin’s statement of “temporal world” doesn’t necessarily have to equate to Shin saying “different space-times.”

- valid. No disagreements unless OP provides better explanation/more evidence. The statement can be disregarded.

4) Neutral on the matter of heaven being the size of the universe.

- Valid. No disagreements however I personally find the evidence sufficient enough to say heaven is universal in size. Although this has no bearing on if the other world and the main world are separate space-times.

5) The GT statement.

- I didn’t quite find your argument to accurately represent it for this statement but regardless after process of elimination this and the previous Saiyan saga statement are the only two statements I find that support the notion of a 2-C cosmological structure which may be more supportive rather than truly substantial evidence.

I’ll switch my vote over to neutral for now after reading the counter arguments however the presence of what I find to be a clear statement by the narrator of there being separate space-times and another statement and showing of a place that is in between space-times I find to be compelling and hard arguments to fully counter. Although the validity of narrator statements comes into question which is why my vote will stay as neutral for now.
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The Shin statement calls the living universe a temporal world/its own space time because the afterlife is a place with no concept of time as shown by the other scans where when goku was in the afterlife and gohan was in the living universe and they were said to be separated by space and time and Goku was dead when Shin called it a temporal world
 
omegabronic said:
if there is no time in the afterlife, then goku wouldn't have to worry about that, since time would not be flowing by his perspective
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Except it doesn't matter if there's no time in the afterlife because there's still time in the mortal world, meaning he would have to get to Earth fast enough in order to stop the Saiyans. Your logic makes zero sense.
 
The "no time" part about the Afterlife is a simple figure of speech for time just not flowing there the same as the Living World, it's the whole reasoning behind SSJ3 not being as draining there, Goku directly says so. Worrying about time constraints in relation to returning to the Living World isn't really a contradiction to that. It's no different from time still moving forward in the Living World from the Rosat.

And it being worded as an effect of the worlds themselves should serve as further indication they're 2-C, clearly separated by time.
 
omegabronic said:
no? he said that it doesn't have time, so there is no flow to be different
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That's the nature of a figure of speech, because in a literal sense it does have time, but at the same time what Goku describes clearly isn't just some bullshit to be dismissed off a faulty interpretation of his words, especially when he substantiates that statement with a fact specifically related to the flow of time, which is SSJ3 not draining as fast in the Afterlife due to the "no time" effect.
 
SSJGeminiJJ said:
That's the nature of a figure of speech, because in a literal sense it does have time, but at the same time what Goku describes clearly isn't just some bullshit to be dismissed off a faulty interpretation of his words, especially when he substantiates that statement with a fact specifically related to the flow of time, which is SSJ3 not draining as fast in the Afterlife due to the "no time" effect.
Click to expand...
you would need to prove that it was a figure of speech in the first place, how can "there is no time" be interpreted as "time flows differently"?
 
omegabronic said:
you would need to prove that it was a figure of speech in the first place, how can "there is no time" be interpreted as "time flows differently"?
Click to expand...
It is by default since time does indeed exist in the Afterlife, otherwise everything would be static and unmoving there and there would be no progression or change. It's supposed to be taken that way because the effect of "no time" Goku explains right after is how his stamina doesn't drain when using SSJ3 while in the Afterlife, something that would be dictated by the flow of the time in this instance, as it's said to be an effect of the realms themselves.
 
SSJGeminiJJ said:
It is by default since time does indeed exist in the Afterlife, otherwise everything would be static and unmoving there and there would be no progression or change.
Click to expand...
Not really, time not existing just given them time hax resistance
SSJGeminiJJ said:
It's supposed to be taken that way because the effect of "no time" Goku explains right after is how his stamina doesn't drain when using SSJ3 while in the Afterlife, something that would be dictated by the flow of the time in this instance, as it's said to be an effect of the realms themselves.
Click to expand...
Don't see how any of what you just said proves anything, if there was time then goku wouldn't have said that it doesn't, "no time" can't mean that there is time
 
I've been asked to give my input on this thread. I'll state in advance that I'm far less knowledgeable or active on Dragon Ball than a lot of other staff members here, so my context on this CRT is based purely in the evidence given in the OP + the discussion so far. If there is any relevant evidence for/against the points provided in the CRT that haven't been mentioned yet, I would like to know before casting judgement.

Let's break down the premises individually (which, by the way, I'm very appreciative that the OP is formatted in such a way that makes this easy; I don't see that often):

1: Popo states that all of the past present and future are created in this room (The Room of Time): My natural response to a premise like this is "Is the statement being literal?". I wouldn't know for sure, but from the context given, I don't see a particular non-literal way to interpret it. As such, assuming Popo is knowledgeable on the Room of Time and not contradicted by other sources, this premise seems perfectly reasonable.

2: The other realms, such as the afterlife, weren’t established yet and the other universes don’t seem to exist, so this statement does seem to imply the past present and future of the living universe: By this, I assume you mean that this statement was made at a point in the show where no other universe was established as existing, meaning it must refer to the timeline of the universe they are in? I don't believe this is as decisive as it initially appears, as it's possible plans for other universes/timelines were already in play when this part was written. However, I don't think there's anything inherently unreasonable about inferring they are referring to the timeline they are in, so I'm largely okay with this premise. Perhaps more elaboration could be useful.

3: It says "Separated by time and space, the harsh trials that the sleeping father and son must face continue on and on." Goku is in the afterlife and Gohan is on earth. The Narrator says they’re both separated by time and space. That's a super blatant statement that heavily implies that the universe and afterlife are two different spacetime continuums.: Same question as before: "Is this statement being literal?". Unlike the previous one, this could be interpreted in a less literal manner (i.e.: it's using flowery language to say "they are extremely far apart"). Even so, the later premises do give some context to this that make me think a literal interpretation is reasonable. I find no particular issues here, but there's enough room for skepticism that this may require further backing.

4: Shin straight up calls the living universe "the temporal world": This seems fine. No issues here.

5: Pixel scaling these specific images gives heaven a volume of 264405000000m^3 which is the size of a mountain. This makes no sense because all mortals in the universe are supposed to fit on heaven. We also know in DB that not everything is drawn to scale all the time: From what I understand, the previous discussions concluded Heaven could not be the size of a universe due to it revolving around a sun and being depicted as a planet? This premise links statements (canon statements? Not sure where these are from) stating that Heaven is the size of a universe, as well as acknowledging size discrepancies and the fact that DB doesn't draw things to scale (can't verify that personally, but presumably that's true).

This is tenuous to me, for several reasons. First of all, a series "not drawing things to scale all the time" is very different from outright depicting an entity as a totally different entity. In this case, if Heaven is really as big as a universe, and the writers acknowledged this, why would they draw it as a planet orbiting a sun? Unintentional inaccuracies in depicting size for many plausible reasons (i.e.: not knowing how big something should be, errors in relative size depiction, dramatic effect, or just lack of concern) isn't comparable to knowingly depicting a supposed universe-sized entity as orbiting a sun. Secondly, it's well known at this point that the words "world" and "universe" are very frequently conflated with one another in texts translated from Japanese to English; isn't it possible the original text said the Japanese equivalent of "world" in reference to a planet and it was simply mistranslated as "universe"?

There is too much doubt here for me to agree to this premise, but I'm not going to throw it out entirely. Still, more evidence is needed before I can support this.

6: Pan states that the strange place Goku goes to in "Otherworld" is "a place between space-times": Is the "Otherworld" a place between the Afterlife/Heaven and Earth? I don't know the context of this, but assuming the translation is correct, this premise is reasonable. I would like verification for this translation beyond "a friend of a friend translated it", mind you, but this is otherwise fine.

7: Scaling: This is where my usefulness probably ends. I don't know who scales to what in DB, nor what feats they already possess, or their established limitations. So I can't say who scales to what, or what is/isn't an outlier.

So, to conclude: I'll restate that I take issue with the depiction of the size of Heaven. I can't brush that point off as a discrepancy in drawing style; there is a clear contradiction between what the linked statement claims and what is actually shown. I don't believe a good conclusion can be reached in this topic until that discrepancy is cleared up.

But I otherwise think everything else holds up to scrutiny. At least, within the limitations of what knowledge has been provided, of which I suspect there is missing information. I would like other knowledgeable DB members (whether regular or staff) to address the concerns I've listed, and also to handle matters regarding scaling/outliers.
 
DarkGrath said:
.3: It says "Separated by time and space, the harsh trials that the sleeping father and son must face continue on and on." Goku is in the afterlife and Gohan is on earth. The Narrator says they’re both separated by time and space. That's a super blatant statement that heavily implies that the universe and afterlife are two different spacetime continuums.: Same question as before: "Is this statement being literal?". Unlike the previous one, this could be interpreted in a less literal manner (i.e.: it's using flowery language to say "they are extremely far apart"). Even so, the later premises do give some context to this that make me think a literal interpretation is reasonable. I find no particular issues here, but there's enough room for skepticism that this may require further backing.
Click to expand...
The thing is, despite the subtitles wording it a little loosely, the raw wording heard there is 時空, which is the Japanese equivalent for the actual noun itself “space-time”, rather than just “time and space” vaguely. I’m pretty sure “space-time” itself specifically is pretty unanimous and literal and doesn’t even really work as flowery language.
 
Hello, I wasn't present for the previous thread that Zamasu-chan had made but I've read through it and would like to give my thoughts on the arguments made on both sides, and add on to them.

-Popo states that all of the past present and future are created in this room (The Room of Time): One extremely important thing that I have not seen mentioned in this thread thus far or the one that preceded it, is Mr Popo's status and how it reflects on this statement. Not many know this but Mr Popo was actually born in the Afterlife, stated in Daizenshuu 7.
This automatically gives his word on the temporal natures of the DBZ macrocosm the upmost of credibility, his words should not be taken lightly when figuring out the Z cosmology.

-It says "Separated by time and space, the harsh trials that the sleeping father and son must face continue on and on." Goku is in the afterlife and Gohan is on earth. The Narrator says they’re both separated by time and space. That's a super blatant statement that heavily implies that the universe and afterlife are two different spacetime continuums.: I've seen that the argument made against this statement is that it's 'just using flowery language'. I'd like to make it known that this argument is very, very weak and I wholeheartedly believe that no one would have even entertained it as an actual argument had it not come from a mod with high sway in the community. Nevertheless it did, and from what I've seen the overwhelming majority of the wiki shares the view that it is a non-argument and have made their points.
Even after seeing that, AKM you have continued to repeat it's use as an argument and even tried to point us out for being the ones to rehash 'debunked repeated arguments'. AKM, do you believe that your view holds more weight than the majority of the wiki even though the common consensus is that the evidence supports their side? Have you not considered that the majority's perspective isn't just coming from ignorance, but maybe that your view is the wrong one?

-Pixel scaling these specific images gives heaven a volume of 264405000000m^3 which is the size of a mountain. This makes no sense because all mortals in the universe are supposed to fit on heaven. We also know in DB that not everything is drawn to scale all the time: Official guidebooks have stated that the DB macrocosm holds Universe sized constructs within it far too much to be ignored.
Screenshot_29.png
knOxJ4s.jpeg
eZRB4EI.jpeg
c12dEkt.jpeg

If anything, the arguments made here go hand in hand with making a point for the Otherworld being a higher dimensional plane.

Pan states that the strange place Goku goes to in "Otherworld" is "a place between space-times":
And with this statement, we finish the gauntlet of the Toeiverse with all three series, DB DBZ and DBGT each alluding, stating or making reference to the fact that the Toeiverse is 2-C. Lightning doesn't strike twice, let alone thrice.

Agree FRA.
 
Last edited:
pineappleman said:
Hello, I wasn't present for the previous thread that Zamasu-chan had made but I've read through it and would like to give my thoughts on the arguments made on both sides, and add on to them.

-Popo states that all of the past present and future are created in this room (The Room of Time): One extremely important thing that I have not seen mentioned in this thread thus far or the one that preceded it, is Mr Popo's status and how it reflects on this statement. Not many know this but Mr Popo was actually born in the Afterlife, stated in Daizenshuu 7.
This automatically gives his word on the temporal natures of the DBZ macrocosms the upmost of credibility, his words should not be taken lightly when figuring out the Z cosmology.

-It says "Separated by time and space, the harsh trials that the sleeping father and son must face continue on and on." Goku is in the afterlife and Gohan is on earth. The Narrator says they’re both separated by time and space. That's a super blatant statement that heavily implies that the universe and afterlife are two different spacetime continuums.: I've seen that the argument made against this statement is that it's 'just using flowery language'. I'd like to make it known that this argument is very, very weak and I wholeheartedly believe that no one would have even entertained it as an actual argument had it not come from a mod with high sway in the community. Nevertheless it did, and from what I've seen the overwhelming majority of the wiki shares the view that it is a non-argument and have made their points.
Even after seeing that, AKM you have continued to repeat it's use as an argument and even tried to point us out for being the ones to rehash 'debunked repeated arguments'. AKM, do you believe that your view holds more weight than the majority of the wiki even though the common consensus is that the evidence supports their side? Have you not considered that the majority's perspective isn't just coming from ignorance, but maybe that your view is the wrong one?

-Pixel scaling these specific images gives heaven a volume of 264405000000m^3 which is the size of a mountain. This makes no sense because all mortals in the universe are supposed to fit on heaven. We also know in DB that not everything is drawn to scale all the time: Official guidebooks have stated that the DB macrocosm holds Universe sized constructs within it far too much to be ignored.
Screenshot_29.png
knOxJ4s.jpeg
eZRB4EI.jpeg
c12dEkt.jpeg

If anything, the arguments made here go hand in hand with making a point for the Otherworld being a higher dimensional plane.

Pan states that the strange place Goku goes to in "Otherworld" is "a place between space-times":
And with this statement, we finish the gauntlet of the Toeiverse with all three series, DB DBZ and DBGT each alluding, stating or making reference to the fact that the Toeiverse is 2-C. Lightning doesn't strike twice, let alone thrice.

Agree FRA.
Click to expand...
I just think DB's cosmology should go through an overhaul, the arguments against the verse are so silly it doesn't even make sense, I'm even shocked to see every argument against updating the verse.
 
pineappleman said:
Pan states that the strange place Goku goes to in "Otherworld" is "a place between space-times":
And with this statement, we finish the gauntlet of the Toeiverse with all three series, DB DBZ and DBGT each alluding, stating or making reference to the fact that the Toeiverse is 2-C. Lightning doesn't strike twice, let alone thrice.
Click to expand...
This reminds me, I remember seeing some contention in the original rejected thread about this part being not enough due to supposedly only being mentioned once in the preview, but that's also not even the case here and the same thing was actually mentioned in the episodes themselves a few times.
1602572527bd460ca8775890486ab1c4.png

d214773311b716f5c0d7cd9bc7bb87da.png
 
SSJGeminiJJ said:
This reminds me, I remember seeing some contention in the original rejected thread about this part being not enough due to supposedly only being mentioned once in the preview, but that's also not even the case here and the same thing was actually mentioned in the episodes themselves a few times.
1602572527bd460ca8775890486ab1c4.png

d214773311b716f5c0d7cd9bc7bb87da.png
Click to expand...
One impressive thing about the Sugoroku Space is how Kibito Kai couldn't even access it with Kai-Kai. The same instantaneous teleportation technique that could travel throughout the entire macrocosm and access all traditionally inaccessible by travel sectors like Heaven, Kaioshin Realm etc..
 
pineappleman said:
-Popo states that all of the past present and future are created in this room (The Room of Time): One extremely important thing that I have not seen mentioned in this thread thus far or the one that preceded it, is Mr Popo's status and how it reflects on this statement. Not many know this but Mr Popo was actually born in the Afterlife, stated in Daizenshuu 7.
Click to expand...
obviously doesn't make sense in context that they're creator gods dude, if they fall so low in the hierarchy
 
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