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Dragon Ball (Toei) GT upgrade (Redone)

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The disagreement in the last thread based off reading through was trying to dismiss a major evidence in the narrator's statement about the difference between Goku being dead and Gohan being alive off of saying "separated by space and time" on it's own vague and could mean something else other than them being separated 4-D space-time. However, it doesn't seem that the solution to that in the fact that contrary to the subtitles' apparently open ended wording, the raw dialogue quite literally says "space-time" with no ambiguity was discussed at all in the first place. That alone should be more than enough to justify this upgrade.
vsbattles.fandom.com

Universe

The Universe is all of space and time and their contents, including planets, stars, galaxies, all forms of matter and energy. Due to the unknown spatial size of the universe, we use the size of the observable universe as a baseline for universal feats. The observable universe is currently...
vsbattles.fandom.com vsbattles.fandom.com
If they are outright stated to be completely separated by the barriers of time and space and either stated or shown to be reasonable in size
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The narrator practically quotes the standards page itself.
 
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God900 said:
Hello, this will be a second attempt to upgrade GT chars.....now, here it was the first (failed) attempt to actually upgrade the cosmolgy:


However, as Zamasu said there are clearly indicators as of why Toei cosmolgy is too different from Canon.

I will be using his arguments again, MINUS Buuhan's Universal feat, since it's been already argued a lot and it doesn't seem to get the pass.....

Anyways.......let's see how it goes:


1)



Here Popo states that all of the past present and future are created in this room. The other realms, such as the afterlife, weren’t established yet and the other universes don’t seem to exist, so this statement does seem to imply the past present and future of the living universe.


2)



It says "Separated by time and space, the harsh trials that the sleeping father and son must face continue on and on." Goku is in the afterlife and Gohan is on earth. The Narrator says they’re both separated by time and space. That's a super blatant statement that heavily implies that the universe and afterlife are two different spacetime continuums.



3)



Here Shin straight up calls the living universe "the temporal world", which is another straight forward statement.




4)


This was rejected because "Heaven revolves around a sun" or "a planet can't be universe sized", but mainly because of these two photos. Pixel scaling these specific images gives heaven a volume of 264405000000m^3 which is the size of a mountain. This makes no sense because all mortals in the universe are supposed to fit on heaven. We also know in DB that not everything is drawn to scale all the time.



Fifth, we have a GT statement:



Zamasu got a friend to translate it for him and it says:
Goku: あれ？ あの世にしては変なとこに来ちまったぞ｡
Huh? I've come to a strange place in Otherworld.
Pan: そこは 時空のはざまで 外からじゃ誰にも助けられないんですって！
That place is between space-times, no one can help you from the outside.
Another clear as day statement, as the space Goku is in is between the universe and otherworld.

Those are several spacetime statements so I think that’s more that enough evidence that U7 in DBZ, GT, Xenoverse and Heroes, is 2-C.


THE SCALING:




Due to the heaven statement, the 3-Cs would likely get upgraded with an updated calc.





Omega Shenron is 3-A for his universal statements. With the evidence provided, Omega and SSJ4 Gogeta would be 2-C.






If this gets accepted:

1.Toeiverse U7 would be 2-C

2. Omega, Gogeta, and SSJ4 Goku with Dragon Fist would be 2-C


NOTE:. IF YOU WANT TO SEE THE WHOLE THREAD THAT WAS REDONE, JUST CLICK ABOVE THE LINK TO ZAMASU CHAN'S CRT, YOU WILL SEE THIS CRT BUT WITH BUUHAN'S FEATS.

Edit: however I will leave his thread here, again:

Click to expand...

There are quotes that hell is bigger than heaven and also we have decorations that hell is infinite in size by Koyama


Just appearing to be a planet doesn't prove that the sky is the size of a planet, lol, in fact the sky itself is mentioned to be universal in size, anime and databook, I've seen many universes be smaller than a marble, lol,
 
God900 said:

"そして しまいにゃあ 地球自体が腐ってしまう｡➡ いや それだけではない｡➡やがて 地球から あふれ出したﾏｲﾅｽｴﾈﾙｷﾞｰは➡次々と 周囲の星々をも浸食し➡やがては 銀河全体が腐って なくなってしまうじゃろう｡➡じゃ… じゃあ この界王神界も｡➡うむ｡ 無事では 済まないじゃろうな｡➡た… 大変じゃないですか!➡早く逃げましょう｡"

"Elder Kaioshin: And, in the end, the world itself will rot. And it won’t stop there. Soon, negative energy overflowing from that world will erode the surrounding celestial bodies until, entire galaxies will rot and disappear."

"Kibitoshin: Then... then our world will be affected too?!"

"Elder Kaioshin: Yes. Our world isn’t safe from it either."
Click to expand...
Wait, isn't this an explicit matter destruction statement? The Elder Kai explains his scope of destruction as extending into celestial bodies and galaxies (through gradual erosion, no less), which would rule out the possibility of spatio-temporal destruction, no?
 
God900 said:

"そして しまいにゃあ 地球自体が腐ってしまう｡➡ いや それだけではない｡➡やがて 地球から あふれ出したﾏｲﾅｽｴﾈﾙｷﾞｰは➡次々と 周囲の星々をも浸食し➡やがては 銀河全体が腐って なくなってしまうじゃろう｡➡じゃ… じゃあ この界王神界も｡➡うむ｡ 無事では 済まないじゃろうな｡➡た… 大変じゃないですか!➡早く逃げましょう｡"

"Elder Kaioshin: And, in the end, the world itself will rot. And it won’t stop there. Soon, negative energy overflowing from that world will erode the surrounding celestial bodies until, entire galaxies will rot and disappear."

"Kibitoshin: Then... then our world will be affected too?!"

"Elder Kaioshin: Yes. Our world isn’t safe from it either."
Click to expand...

@God900 could you add this to the topic, where the other world merges with the living world?

 
These are literally the same arguments that have been rejected earlier. What?
 
AKM sama said:
These are literally the same arguments that have been rejected earlier. What?
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I don’t think that’s necessarily a reason to dismiss them. Just because something was rejected before doesn’t therefore mean it can’t be accepted later.

What specific issue do you have in this instance? Do you disagree with the notion of the afterlife being separate space-times or do you disagree with the notion that Omega Shenron would destroy everything?

Because to me personally I don’t see any issue here.
 
I disagree for the same reasons listed in the previous thread. Nothing has been changed. No new information has been presented.

Moreover, attempting to change this is already against our DB discussion rules iirc. The rule was made because the exact same arguments were being repeated.

For those who are new, they can read the older threads. But it is exhausting and taxing for those who are old and have done the same song and dance before.
 
AKM sama said:
I disagree for the same reasons listed in the previous thread. Nothing has been changed. No new information has been presented.
Click to expand...
Including elder kai's statement, the raw scans, various non-conflicting statements and data books?
AKM sama said:
Moreover, attempting to change this is already against our DB discussion rules iirc. The rule was made because the exact same arguments were being repeated.
Click to expand...
I thought there were only Marvel and DC scaling rules. Nothing about Dragon Ball. Not even referenced in the verse page.
AKM sama said:
For those who are new, they can read the older threads. But it is exhausting and taxing for those who are old and have done the same song and dance before.
Click to expand...
That just means you can link the many old threads other than the ones above.
 
Greatsage13th said:
I thought there were only Marvel and DC scaling rules. Nothing about Dragon Ball. Not even referenced in the verse page.
Click to expand...
He was talking about the rules against revising Dragon Ball's cosmology.

But anyway, Null brought up a good point that it was pollution followed by a big explosion that specifically destroys the celestial bodies. It contradicts destroying time and space; which even if the concealed places was legit, it would only apply to range at best and not AP.
 
AKM sama said:
I disagree for the same reasons listed in the previous thread. Nothing has been changed. No new information has been presented.

Moreover, attempting to change this is already against our DB discussion rules iirc. The rule was made because the exact same arguments were being repeated.

For those who are new, they can read the older threads. But it is exhausting and taxing for those who are old and have done the same song and dance before.
Click to expand...
Ok so after checking over the thread I’d like to go over you disagreements and give my two cents on them. If I’ve misrepresented your position you can let me know.

Your disagreements:

1) with added context to the statement, Popo’s words about the room creating past present and future isn’t applicable the actual whole widespread universe.

- Valid. No disagreements unless OP provides better explanation/more evidence. This statements can be disregarded.

2) The words by the narrator in regards to goku and gohan being separated by space and time may not be so literally especially given added context with the manga and may be more poetic in nature.

- disagree. I feel the interpretation here would be too loose while the actual words by the narrator seem straightforward. However I agree with your notion in the previous thread that this statement alone should not be definitive evidence of 2-C cosmology and would be best used as a supporting statement. Overall this statement I find tone supporting evidence however not definitive evidence. More proof would be required.

3) Shin’s statement of “temporal world” doesn’t necessarily have to equate to Shin saying “different space-times.”

- valid. No disagreements unless OP provides better explanation/more evidence. The statement can be disregarded.

4) Neutral on the matter of heaven being the size of the universe.

- Valid. No disagreements however I personally find the evidence sufficient enough to say heaven is universal in size. Although this has no bearing on if the other world and the main world are separate space-times.

5) The GT statement.

- I didn’t quite find your argument to accurately represent it for this statement but regardless after process of elimination this and the previous Saiyan saga statement are the only two statements I find that support the notion of a 2-C cosmological structure which may be more supportive rather than truly substantial evidence.

I’ll switch my vote over to neutral for now after reading the counter arguments however the presence of what I find to be a clear statement by the narrator of there being separate space-times and another statement and showing of a place that is in between space-times I find to be compelling and hard arguments to fully counter. Although the validity of narrator statements comes into question which is why my vote will stay as neutral for now.
 
There’s nothing even remotely poetic or vague about “separated by space and time” in that scene, as it literally uses the actual term for 4-D “space-time”, rather than simply space and time. I don’t see where this fact was discussed in the first thread either when it was initially rejected, and should fall under new information here.
 
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DarkDragonMedeus said:
He was talking about the rules against revising Dragon Ball's cosmology.

But anyway, Null brought up a good point that it was pollution followed by a big explosion that specifically destroys the celestial bodies. It contradicts destroying time and space; which even if the concealed places was legit, it would only apply to range at best and not AP.
Click to expand...
right here it shows the other world merging with the worlds of the living, would that be enough to affect space-time?
 
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