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Dragon Ball Super Discussion Thread 85

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Im liking the lore development in the manga.

Also, we should add in Whis' and co's intelligence or weaknesses that they wont ever fight at full power im character. Cuz that's what they consider "fighting" for angels.

And Goku is now Angel-trainee level. Huh.
 
Heroes which is currently Post ToP; DBHDBS Goku is no where near Whis' level still, even with MUI. Also I wonder what this "Angel Realm" Whis mentioned is
 
Isn't this arc about being able to beat your opponent using nonstandard moves? Goku was trying to get UI under control and Vegeta's learning hax/refining his ki usage. A arc more like the ToP (All about constantly getting physically stronger over and over again) is the type that I think would be one where Beerus gets surpassed by the end of it.
 
Zenkaibattery1 said:
Heroes which is currently Post ToP; DBHDBS Goku is no where near Whis' level still, even with MUI.
Also I wonder what this "Angel Realm" Whis mentioned is
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Whis is and will be infinitely stronger than any mortal character until Official material eventually say otherwise ovo.
 
If Goku manages to become as strong as Beerus with SSJB, would he be 2-C with Kaio-ken? I think I remember someone saying that multipliers wouldn't work that way in the tiering system
 
Gogeta managed to become 2-C via casually stomping someone who's Beerus tier (half 2-C).

so if SSJB Goku somehow managed to become as strong as Beerus with SSB, with Kaioken he'll definitely be 2-C.
 
DragonEmperor23 said:
Isn't this arc about being able to beat your opponent using nonstandard moves? Goku was trying to get UI under control and Vegeta's learning hax/refining his ki usage. A arc more like the ToP (All about constantly getting physically stronger over and over again) is the type that I think would be one where Beerus gets surpassed by the end of it.
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Okay the ToP sec was definitely not about getting physically stronger over and over again.
 
DragonEmperor23 said:
Surpassing your limits was definitely what a lot of the tournament was about thematically. Goku, Gohan, Cabba, Jiren, Caulifla, Kale, Toppo, Kefla, Hit, even Freiza and 17.
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the verbatim "breaking limits" was only directed at Gohan, Cabba, Kefla, and then with respect to forms for Vegeta and Goku.

17, Freeza, Hit, especially, had absolutely no thematic focus as far as surpassing limits.

If the tournament was about "getting physically stronger constantly" they would not have had an entire prelude sequence ehere they emphasize strength is not everything.
 
PFM18 said:
17, Freeza, Hit, especially, had absolutely no thematic focus as far as surpassing limits.
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To be fair, Goku did say 'we' have gone past our limits when talking to Frieza, so that implies Frieza and 17 may have surpassed their limits.
 
To be fair, Goku did say 'we' have gone past our limits when talking to Frieza, so that implies Frieza and 17 may have surpassed their limits.

Which is more of them going beyond what they could be able to do at the time not "well gotten stronger than previously "
 
PaChi2 said:
Also, we should add in Whis' and co's intelligence or weaknesses that they wont ever fight at full power im character. Cuz that's what they consider "fighting" for angels.
Click to expand...
Angels aren't even allowed to fight using their angel abilities and them using full power in training isn't allowed either because it somehow counts as a fight. Merus was only fighting with mortal weapons because he was sent to observe the mortals. Anyway, that's an in-verse limitation. In vs battles they are forced to fight at full power lol.

Explains why Whis only kept dodging Broly.
 
the verbatim "breaking limits" was only directed at Gohan, Cabba, Kefla, and then with respect to forms for Vegeta and Goku.

17, Freeza, Hit, especially, had absolutely no thematic focus as far as surpassing limits.

If the tournament was about "getting physically stronger constantly" they would not have had an entire prelude sequence ehere they emphasize strength is not everything.

I mean, they did do that with Krillin but after the tournament started they focused on surpassing your limits. Like Roshi vs Ganon (I think that was the bird dude's name), what Cryo said about Goku saying to 17 and Freiza (and even ignoring that, 17 kept using an attack that was thought to kill him and Freiza kept getting back up after being ragdolled by others), etc. And if you're saying that Vegeta's only hint for getting stronger was his SSBE form, then no, there was that scene where he was all like "I can see his punches!" after fighting Jiren for a while which was way before that transformation.
 
it doesnt matter what reasons they have to not go all out, it should be addressed that it is something they dont do in character. Doesnt matter if SBA gets rid of said limitation by default, we are an indexing site, arent we?
 
PaChi2 said:
it doesnt matter what reasons they have to not go all out, it should be addressed that it is something they dont do in character. Doesnt matter if SBA gets rid of said limitation by default, we are an indexing site, arent we?
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They don't do it in character because it would result in an instant erasure by a highter power, it's not part of their characters.

Also it was decide to not use the infos of the manga about the angels, otherwise they all would have type 5 immortality and it was refused.
 
"They don't do it in character because it would result in an instant erasure by a highter power, it's not part of their characters."

No. Angels must remain neutral. That's the rule and something they live their lives following. Its their character. You dont see Whis minding his erasure or U7's. Whis is neutral and he is not like "I wish I could fight someone with all my power". He doesnt care.

"Also it was decide to not use the infos of the manga about the angels, otherwise they all would have type 5 immortality and it was refused."

This, on yhe other hand, I can understand.
 
PaChi2 said:
"They don't do it in character because it would result in an instant erasure by a highter power, it's not part of their characters."
No. Angels must remain neutral. That's the rule and something they live their lives following. Its their character. You dont see Whis minding his erasure or U7's. Whis is neutral and he is not like "I wish I could fight someone with all my power". He doesnt care.

"Also it was decide to not use the infos of the manga about the angels, otherwise they all would have type 5 immortality and it was refused."

This, on yhe other hand, I can understand.
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That's the rule enforced by the Grand Priest and Zeno, not something the angels decided for themself so no, it's not part of their characters, you remove Zeno and the Grand Priest erasing them if they do it and they'll stop being neutral.

He maybe doesn't mind U7 being erased but he sure as hell mind him or his brother getting erased, even the grand priest doesn't like losing angels.
 
"That's the rule enforced by the Grand Priest and Zeno, not something the angels decided for themself so no, it's not part of their characters, you remove Zeno and the Grand Priest erasing them if they do it and they'll stop being neutral.

He maybe doesn't mind U7 being erased but he sure as hell mind him or his brother getting erased, even the grand priest doesn't like losing angels."

You are under the impression that Whis and co only behave like that because they are forced to. I dont think that's the case unless we can see more of an internal struggle from Whis or any other Angel. Heck, Merus knew he was crossing the line and accepted to follow Whis without arguing.

The death penalyt's removal doesnt make people who arent murderers start murdering, in other words, removing Zeno and GP wont make Angels change unless there is evidence to think otherwise. Im more inclined to believe that the Angles work thinking that "Angels must be neutral" rather than "if Im not neutral Im ded".

But this is all pointless, I thought Angels had manga pages.
 
It's not an impression, that's what we are told, they are following the rules because otherwise they get erased.

You can believe whatever you want, in the meantime, the official info tell us that they are neutral under the threat of erasure, nothing else.
 
Dragomer said:
It's not an impression, that's what we are told, they are following the rules because otherwise they get erased.

You can believe whatever you want, in the meantime, the official info tell us that they are neutral under the threat of erasure, nothing else.
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Nah. Beerus, Champa, other GoDs do give the impression of being obedient just because otherwise they are dead meat. They are scared of Zeno and GP. Whis and the Angels on the other hand are non chalant and carefree. The show makes a huge distinction about who "is working under the threat of erasure". Angels simply are neutral, doesnt matter if they are punished if they arent if that's not their motivation to be neutral.
 
Random question but what are your multipliers on Super Saiyan God, Blue and Ultra Instinct?

Imo...

For God I find it to be 2,000,000x

For Blue I think it might be 100,000,000x

For Ultra Instinct it's 20,000,000,000x
 
If we assume SSJ3 is 400x, then God which is in a totally different realm of power could be 10,000 to 20,000x Base. Blue is 50x that and UI/MUI are way over 20x that of Blue, I even believe UI probably is to Blue what Blue is to Base.

I believe these numbers are way too bloated though maybe someone could make a lower estimation.
 
MonzyMonz said:
Random question but what are your multipliers on Super Saiyan God, Blue and Ultra Instinct?

Imo...

For God I find it to be 2,000,000x

For Blue I think it might be 100,000,000x

For Ultra Instinct it's 20,000,000,000x
Click to expand...
Low ball for Blue is 10 times God based on the manga. Oterwise it's just 50x the god form.

No way to tell UI's number but it's way above 20x times.

@Omegas03 God being a totally different level was only a thing when Goku did the ritual. It doesn't feel like a huge jump in power considering that Caulifla was able to take some of hits and not get one shotted and frankly, she was more impressed with 3 than she was with god "not to say 3 is stronger than god" but barely anyone give any immersion to Goku going from regular SSJ forms to god
 
Super Saiyan God lowballed is a 160,000 times multiplier from base.

Goku stated that fusion would do nothing to Beerus. Which would include SSJ3 Vegito, with even base Vegito being stronger than SSJ3 Goku. Yet once Goku had SSG, he was confident he stood a chance against Beerus.

If you're going to do fan calcs and compare the universe busting feats to what he was capable of beforehand, it's astronimically larger than that.

Unfortunately SSG has been made out to be something not all that impressive anymore.
 
Zamasu Chan said:
I gave up on trying to find the UI multiplier, there's so much shit. I just use backwards scaling from Gogeta.
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If we use this method you can get crazy results.

As I established earlier, SSG should be a 160,000x multiplier. SSB is essentially stacking SSJ on top of that. So SSB is an 8 million times multiplier.

Base Gogeta is stronger than SSB Goku, and can stack SSB on top of that. So SSB Gogeta is a 64 trillion times multiplier from Base Goku. If you're assuming Ultra Instinct Goku > SSB (Which is debatable) then damn.

Multipliers were a mistake.
 
Ryukama said:
Super Saiyan God lowballed is a 160,000 times multiplier from base.

Goku stated that fusion would do nothing to Beerus. Which would include SSJ3 Vegito, with even base Vegito being stronger than SSJ3 Goku. Yet once Goku had SSG, he was confident he stood a chance against Beerus.

If you're going to do fan calcs and compare the universe busting feats to what he was capable of beforehand, it's astronimically larger than that.

Unfortunately SSG has been made out to be something not all that impressive anymore.
Click to expand...
Are we sure the SSG multiplier is the same for example the first time opposed to currently? Considering Goku absorbed SSG power.

I also still have my doubts on Blue being 50x God, it's the most logical thing for sure but it's never depicted as such lol.
 
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