Dragon Ball Super Discussion Thread 85

[ZERO7772]

Yeah? Beerus is a major character in DBS and have been Goku and Vegeta's superior for years now. Jiren is likely just a one off antagonist which Goku already has already beaten.

>There's no way that Beerus would still be stronger than Jiren and Goku at this point without being able to go to town on all of the GoDs with minimal effort.

Not really.

> Not to mention how Belmod is already implied to be on par with if not stronger than Beerus

From Whiss teasing Beerus about it, which Beerus denined and said hand to hand combat are different and Whiss did not deny that.

> There's also the various sources that imply that Goku is above Beerus (whether this is UI or Third Omen they're talking about, I'm not sure).

There is only 2 source that comapred Goku and Beerus that I am ware of, DBH:World mission and that one magazine page.

1-The magazine promo said that UI Goku is possibly stronger than Beerus, which would imply that base Jiren is way weaker than Beerus because UI Goku was schooling him hard.

2-The other is DBH; World Mission. IIRC Whiss mentioned that UI Goku may have a good chance against Beerus in that form but that's it.

The show still shy away from even mentioning the idea of Goku surpassed Beerus. You are kidding yourself if you think Goku could pull out UI and one-shot Beerus with it if they ever have a rematch

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

It really depends on how strong Belmod is compared to Beerus.

 

[MonzyMonz]

Goku Base > Vegeta Base

There is no way that Base Goku is stronger then SSJ Vegeta or God Vegeta, if that was true then there would be a statement about Goku being levels beyond Vegeta, and SSJBE is 20x SSJB.

Broly is weaker then Jiren, Broly is possibly stronger then Beerus and Jiren is stronger then all the GoDs in his base.

Imo my scaling would be:

Gogeta Blue > UI Goku > Jiren (Enraged) > UI Goku (when he first appeared) > Jiren (Base) > LSSJ Broly = UI Omen Goku (3rd sign) > Strongest GoD > SSJBE Vegeta (ToP) = SSJBKK x20 Goku (Post UIO2) >= SSJBs in the movie

JIREN .IS. ONLY. STRONGER. THAN. BELMOOD.
There is absolutely no way Goku would surpass Beerus without the story mentioning it after he was a goal point for such a long time.

Here's proof Jiren is stronger then all Gods.
And proof Goku might of possibly surpassed Beerus when he went UIO3 (And Goku gets stronger when he goes UI Omen throughout his fight with Jiren)

https://twitter.com/Herms98/status/971664014601154560

 

[Planck69]

Again, you're basing this all of the fact that the narrative would flow better in your eyes. Base Jiren is stronger than a GoD. UI Goku was completely stomping Jiren and proceeded to beat him when the latter had gotten a massive power boost. There's no reason to assume that Beerus is somehow insanely stronger than the average GoD to the point that he would stomp some of his brethren beyond "It fits with the story".

 

[ZERO7772]

1-The text in that manga guidebook is vague, it uses the word "may" so it's not really any different than what we know from the anime. Not to mention the manga itself "again" never make such compassion or statement

2-Herms alrady confirmed that magazine was talking about complete UI Goku and not the omen version.

Magazine and promo pictures are pretty worthless as evidence. I can bring you right now 4-5 sources that described Broly's power as the strongest enemy and being above GoD as well which will invalid all Jiren hype cuz Broly is just "possibly" stronger than Beerus.

 

[ZERO7772]

Again, you're basing this all of the fact that the narrative would flow better in your eyes. Base Jiren is stronger than a GoD. UI Goku was completely stomping Jiren and proceeded to beat him when the latter had gotten a massive power boost. There's no reason to assume that Beerus is somehow insanely stronger than the average GoD to the point that he would stomp some of his brethren beyond "It fits with the story".

1-Not every GoD is the same. Toppo is a GoD and he's vastly inferior to Beerus.

2-Jiren did NOT get a majot boost. He went from barely keeping up with UI Goku to barely beating him.

This wiki does not approve of such scaling either, if the boost Jiren got from his rage form was even 2x, he would be on the same tier as Gogeta Blue right now.

3-You are missing the point, Beerus is not insanly stronger than other GoDs, neither is Jiren for that matter

 

[Planck69]

1-Not every GoD is the same. Toppo is a GoD and he's vastly inferior to Beerus.

2-Jiren did NOT get a majot boost. He went from barely keeping up with UI Goku to barely beating him.

This wiki does not approve of such scaling either, if the boost Jiren got from his rage form was even 2x, he would be on the same tier as Gogeta Blue right now.

3-You are missing the point, Beerus is not insanly stronger than other GoDs, neither is Jiren for that matter

1. OK. Not sure why you bring him up since he's clearly shown to be inferior to your average GoD (likely due to still being a candidate or just having Hakai energy and not the raw power).

2. OK. Again, that's still means UI Goku>>Base Jiren>Belmod.

3. Refer to number 2 and your own post. Beerus isn't above other GoDs to the point of making jokes of them in a fight and neither is Base Jiren. The latter is inferior to a more powerful form of himself that gets beaten by UI Goku. Therefore, he's far enough above a GoD that we can say with certainty that UI Goku is stronger than Beerus.

 

[ZERO7772]

1-No. Belmod said Toppo is not different than a GoD in that state, take that statment the way you like.

2-You might wanna take out that extra ">" because Goku did one shot base Jiren so the different between them was likely less than 50%.

3-No.This is just you missing the point again. PTSD Jiren being a little stronger than base Jiren who is only stronger than belmod doesn't mean his rage form will make a joke out of them.

 

[Planck69]

1-No. Belmod said Toppo is not different than a GoD in that state, take that statment the way you like.
2-You might wanna take out that extra ">" because Goku did one shot base Jiren so the different between them was likely less than 50%.

3-No.This is just you missing the point again. PTSD Jiren being a little stronger than base Jiren who is only stronger than belmod doesn't mean his rage form will make a joke out of them.

1. Having the nature of something doesn't necessarily mean being equivalent in all aspects to said thing. Unless only Beerus and Champa are capable of destroying their universes in a battle, which is what assuming Toppo is on the level of a GoD will lead to.

2. Goku was mopping the floor with Jiren, he may not one-shot the guy but it was clearly a significant difference.

3. Base Jiren gets handily beaten by UI Goku. UBW fares far better than before but still gets beaten. Therefore Goku is stronger than a form that is significantly stronger than a person that's stronger than a GoD. Unless Beerus has a similar power advantage over another GoD, then UI Gku is stonger than him.

 

[Omegas03]

MUI Goku did the same thing that made Gogeta 2-C unless I am mistaken, both stomped someone who is above a GoD, why is one 2-C and the other still Low 2-C?

 

[Planck69]

MUI Goku did the same thing that made Gogeta 2-C unless I am mistaken, both stomped someone who is above a GoD, why is one 2-C and the other still Low 2-C

 

[ZERO7772]

1-Only a god of destruction is capable of using hakai energy from what we saw in the anime. I mean, what makes a god of destruction? Their power? or their ability to use haki? If Toppo is no different than GoD due to the fact that he can use a hakai enegry then what makes you think GoDs are all relative to each other in the first place? Your first argument falls aprat based on this fact with Beerus being able to stomp any GoD no problem. This is also shown in the manga when Beerus mentioned to Vegeta that he would make a good GoD in another universe

2-So what? With Goku's superior reaction and speed due to Ultra Instinct, he managed to overwhelm Jiren but Jiren himself did not take any serious damage from all Goku's attacks even before he powered up.

Therefore Goku is stronger than a form that is significantly stronger than a person that's stronger than a GoD. Unless Beerus has a similar power advantage over another GoD, then UI Gku is stonger than him.

False analogy. UBW Jiren is not significantly stronger than his base and how Belmod ties into Beerus in term of power is unknow therebefore how Goku compares to Beerus is still unknow.

 

[MonzyMonz]

Base Jiren is clearly above all the GoDs, no GoD ever saw Jiren go all out 100% in his base (before ToP), Belmod states this about how he never seen Jiren push this much of his power against Goku and Vegeta, also, I am still right about that UIO3 Goku being possibly stronger then Beerus, Herms translated the article to Ultra Instinct Goku being possibly stronger then Beerus, not MUI Goku being possibly > Beerus, if you want evidence, the show itself calls MUI Ultra Instinct Mastered


Whis states that Jiren cannot be defeated by a GoD, which includes all of the GoDs. Enraged Jiren had a massive power boost, which was shown in the anime.

 

[ZERO7772]

MUI Goku did the same thing that made Gogeta 2-C unless I am mistaken, both stomped someone who is above a GoD, why is one 2-C and the other still Low 2-C?

Make a CRT about it lel.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

They all need to be downgraded.

 

[AwkguyDB]

or maybe the BoG feat being Low 2-C is not a stretch at all thus allowing 2-C DB to begin when Astral Zamasu was in the process of taking over both the future and past allowing top tier Tournament of Power characters who should be comparable with GoDs (who btw range in power from Sidra to Beerus). Thus Gogeta being infinitely stronger than a single GoD who are "Half 2-C?" wouldn't have to be his reasoning and the scaling chain would make astronomically more sense than it already does and we don't have to make a potential upgrade thread for Super literally every month with the same reasoning. 0_0

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

or maybe the BoG feat being Low 2-C is not a stretch at all thus allowing 2-C DB to begin when Astral Zamasu was in the process of taking over both the future and past allowing top tier Tournament of Power characters who should be comparable with GoDs (who btw range in power from Sidra to Beerus). Thus Gogeta being infinitely stronger than a single GoD who are "Half 2-C?" wouldn't have to be his reasoning and the scaling chain would make astronomically more sense than it already does and we don't have to make a potential upgrade thread for Super literally every month with the same reasoning. 0_0

( ō_ô)

 

[MonzyMonz]

They all need to be downgraded.

No they don't

 

[Dragomer]

They all need to be upgraded.

 

[PFM18]

....so people are talking about peoppe being 6.4M times stronger than Infinite Zamasu??

Yes, they are. But if you're skeptical of these high numbers (A lot of people are), here's the most absolutely lowballed version:
The Omens have shown to give zenkai boosts. Goku after UIO1 is stronger than before to the point that he can very slightly keep up with surpressed Jiren. Post-UIO2 SSB again somewhat keeps up with Jiren while he's using a lot more of his power. No reason to assume that the third Omen and true UI wouldn't bring up his power as well.

No, they haven't. You can't just arbitrarily assume every Omen gives a...zenkai boost? How the **** is UI even related to being a Saiyan and the related zenkais? How wouldl Vegeta's speech about Saiyans breaking their limits make sense if UI gives zenkai boosts? What the hell even suggests that his growth was even related to UI Omens? Or even the ones after the 2nd Omen, where we don't see much of anything from Goku at all, let alone enought to show evidence that he had received massive power boosts from them. The UI "he broke his limits" served as an explanation as to why a technique that gives autonomous movement would also give a massive power boost. It shatters his normal limits and that is a mechanism that makes UI so strong, rather than just giving him movement without thinking with no power increase over SSB.

Let's assume that surpressed Jiren is only 2 times stronger than IZ and that the boosts from the Omens are only 4 times over. He'd have gotten a boost from the third Omen and true UI as well (one could argue that the far greater stress placed on his body would have a bigger boost) and gotten even stronger in the 3 months of training and I'll go with 1.5 times as a lowball. So;
Ummmm....no? Why would we assume that suppressed Jiren is even stronger than IZ at all? Let's look at the conversation that I am assuming that you are referring to:

Other Kaioshin: The willpower to control that with just his glare, and I sense a far higher power within him.

Whis: It appears he's at the limit of his limit. Meanwhile, Jiren appears to be far from full power.

U7 Kaioshin: This power feels different from anyone we've ever faced before. He's strong plain and simple.

There are two lines specifically alluding to power other than the power he was currently using. AND THEN, Whis confirms that Jiren is the mortal stronger than their GoD. It should be obvious the power being referred to in both instances is not the suppressed power he was using. Otherwise, basically everyone and their mother would be stronger than the GoDs, or you would have to find some convoluted way for the conversation to be referring to his suppressed power with respect to previous enemies, and his full-power with respect to his GoD, rather than staying consistent. Therefore, all we know is that Jiren is stronger than Zamasu at his best, but that's about it.

Base Gogeta is keeping up with SS1 Broly who's 40 times stronger than in his Ikari form, which is comparable to SSB Goku. IF we go with Base Gogeta being only a quarter of SS1 Broly's power then we have;
Okay, first of all it is pure head canon to claim that his SSJ is a multiplier of his Ikari form rather than his Base form. It's ambiguous we don't know that. It could go either way. And no, he was weaker than SSB Goku, not comparable. Why the **** would Base Gogeta be a quarter of SSJ Broly's power? Am I to believe that SSJ Gogeta was more than 10x stronger than SSJ Broly? That's absolutely not what is shown in the fight. If Base Gogeta was a quarter of SSJ Broly, SSJ Gogeta would have ******* one shot/low-diffed SSJ Broly.


1920 x 40 x 2 x 4 x 5 x 40= 122,800,000 times baseline.

....and this is supposed to be a lowball....

 

[ZERO7772]

SSJ Broly being 40x-50x his ikari form makes more sense since his SS form was able to keep up with SS Gogeta who should have been Blue level at the minimum. Otherwise you will have to assume that SS Broly grew randomly 10 times stronger form beating Freiza for a whole hour.

Comparable =/= dead equals.

Broly had a lot of back and forth with Blue Goku before Goku began to gain an advantage over him and even then Goku never defeated Broly their fight was interrupted by Frieza.

 

[ZERO7772]

I agree with @PFM18 overall though. Those numbers and scalings are silly.

 

[Dragomer]

Broly SSJ form is called SSJ, it's not called SSJ Ikari, we have no reason to believe that Broly can stack up transformation, it was litteraly never done before.

 

[ZERO7772]

And his LSSJ form is called full power SSJ, does that mean his regular SS form was the one Goku used against Frieza and his final form is what Goku pulled against Cell? Cuz clearly Goku didn't grow 10 foot tall and give green aura after he finished his training.

Couldn't care less about the naming tbh.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

Base to base Goku would be stronger than Vegeta. Base fusions are stronger than all forms of both fusee's so base Gogeta being close to SSB Goku's level supports Goku > Vegeta.

 

[Dragomer]

And his LSSJ form is called full power SSJ, does that mean his regular SS form was the one Goku used against Frieza and his final form is what Goku pulled against Cell? Cuz clearly Goku didn't grow 10 foot tall and give green aura after he finished his training.
Couldn't care less about the naming tbh.

Yes, that's exactly what this mean, that's how the forms are called and how they work.

Broly wasn't supposed to either, it's a purely graphic add-on by the director of the movie who wanted Broly's iconic look, in the script and the novel, it's just a full power SSJ.

 

[ZERO7772]

Nah that's just your headcanon in trying to explain thing and force non-exist scenario to fit your narrative.

-SS doesn't give you green aura

-SS doesn't make you 10 foot tall

-SS doesn't make you go insane

 

[Dragomer]

Nah that's just your headcanon in trying to explain thing and force non-exist scenario to fit your narrative.
-SS doesn't give you green aura

-SS doesn't make you 10 foot tall

-SS doesn't make you go insane

No, that's what the director himself directly stated, he added the iconic look, he said so himself.

Yeah because Broly stacking two transformation is totaly canon and confirmed by....absolutly nothing and is directly contradicted by every mention of the form ever.

SSJ doesn't stack with Oozaru either and SSJ does make you insane, Goku litteraly told so to Gohan.

But no, that's totaly not a headcanon and Broly was actualy SSJ3 Ikari with Kaioken and green ultra instinct.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Just going to put this here

 

[ZERO7772]

Snp

And how does that support your argument in any shape or form? Yeah, the director wanted to include Broly's iconic look in the movie so what? Broly's iconic form was never a normal SS transformation to begin with and now you want to say it was normal super sayian full power.

Never said it's 100% true but it goes along with the narrtive, visuals and feats much better than your "graphic add-on" that ignore literally everything in favor of fitting with your narrrtive.

That's false. SS messed up with Goku's head at first yeah but it didn't drove him batshit insane as it does with Broly. Goku was actually taunting and making fun of Frieza for the majority of the fight.

Broly had green hair, big body, green aura, yellow eyes, kept up with SS Gogeta's whose base is equal to Blues. It makes MUCH more sense to assume he was stacking SS on top of Ikari.

But no, that's totaly not a headcanon and Broly was actualy SSJ3 Ikari with Kaioken and green ultra instinct.

He was in Oozaru legendary super Saiyan full power actually.

 

[Dragomer]

Snip
But no, that's totaly not a headcanon and Broly was actualy SSJ3 Ikari with Kaioken and green ultra instinct.


He was in Oozaru legendary super Saiyan full power actually

Not the iconic form, the iconic LOOK, there is no legendary super saiyan form in that movie, it was just the look of it because that's how everyone remember Broly looking like.

No, it doesn't go along with any narrative or anything established, everyone say he is in SSJ, Freezer's goal was to make go SSJ and all official stuff call it 'SSJ', so it's SSJ, it's simple.

No, that's true, Broly was just a more extreme case because he is already unstable to begin with and unlike Goku, he had no one to directly blame, it's even bad enough to stop Goku from being able to use the genkidama, SSJ was always shown to take a huge mental toll.

When did Ikari change his hair color ? never, the eye changed back when Broly was about to die / snapped back to reality and yet no mention of being 10 time weaker or getting smaller were made, he kept up with Gogeta the same way he kept up with everyone before : he just kept getting stronger at a stupid rate and finaly, we are told in what form he is and it's not ever in any product ever called 'SSJ ikari' or anything like that, it's always said to be just normal SSJ and Full Power SSJ.

There is no 'ashtualy !', he was in SSJ and then SSJ Full Power, nothing else, not 'muh oozaru' which never stacked with SSJ and not 'legendary' anything.

 

[MonzyMonz]

SSJ doesn't stack with Oozaru either

Didn't Yamoshi (the original super saiyan) literally stacked super saiyan on top of his Oozaru form?

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

what?

 

[MonzyMonz]

Legendary Super Saiyan is Legendary Super Saiyan, a different version of Super Saiyan. Some of you guys are overlooking the LSSJ transformation

 

[Dragomer]

SSJ doesn't stack with Oozaru either

Didn't Yamoshi (the original super saiyan) literally stacked super saiyan on top of his Oozaru form?
No, he didn't, i don't know where you're getting that idea from.

 

[Omegas03]

Idk if Broly's SSJ is a SSJ Ikari or merely SSJ, but multiplier wise it's well over 50x Ikari based on SSJ Broly = SSJ Gogeta >>> Base Gogeta > SSB Goku and Ikari Broly.

Btw, Broly's Super Saiyan forms are entirely different from the Ordinary SSJ transformations and this is probably obvious considering it makes Broly go crazy, lack of pupils and such. Broly's SSJ and FPSSJ likely belong to the Kale's LSSJ kind of transformations despite the naming.

 

[Dragomer]

Kale wasn't a character yet when Toriyama wrote DBS Broly so it's not possible, SSJ Berserk wasn't a thing yet.

 

[Omegas03]

Both transformations have similar concepts though.

 

[ZERO7772]

Snip
But no, that's totaly not a headcanon and Broly was actualy SSJ3 Ikari with Kaioken and green ultra instinct.


He was in Oozaru legendary super Saiyan full power actually

Not the iconic form, the iconic LOOK, there is no legendary super saiyan form in that movie, it was just the look of it because that's how everyone remember Broly looking like.

No, it doesn't go along with any narrative or anything established, everyone say he is in SSJ, Freezer's goal was to make go SSJ and all official stuff call it 'SSJ', so it's SSJ, it's simple.

No, that's true, Broly was just a more extreme case because he is already unstable to begin with and unlike Goku, he had no one to directly blame, it's even bad enough to stop Goku from being able to use the genkidama, SSJ was always shown to take a huge mental toll.

When did Ikari change his hair color ? never, the eye changed back when Broly was about to die / snapped back to reality and yet no mention of being 10 time weaker or getting smaller were made, he kept up with Gogeta the same way he kept up with everyone before : he just kept getting stronger at a stupid rate and finaly, we are told in what form he is and it's not ever in any product ever called 'SSJ ikari' or anything like that, it's always said to be just normal SSJ and Full Power SSJ.

There is no 'ashtualy !', he was in SSJ and then SSJ Full Power, nothing else, not 'muh oozaru' which never stacked with SSJ and not 'legendary' anything.

Again so what? He could bring the iconic LSSJ form look and could still apply whatever lore to it from the DBS. It really support you argument in any way.

Same way how LSSJ Kale is simply called SS2 right? Again couldn't care less about the naming of the form. Freiza was attempting to give Broly a super sayin boost not getting rid of his current one. Broly transformed to SS while IN Ikari.

Except it's not. Goku was angry but he wasn't batshit insane. Broly was out of control, yeah but the moment he tapped into his ikari form he was like a ******* animal at that point, it has nothing to do with super sayian. Gohan did not lose his mind when he turned into a super Saiyan, Califula did not, Cappa did not, heck not even freaking Trunks or Goten had such experience. Trying to apply losing your mind to going SS is false analogy at best

I was talking about Broly's green hair color that does not match the nomal super sayian.

Broly's adaptation can only take him so far though, every time Broly adapted or powered up there was a narrative and visual focus on him, you can't explain every event in the movie with "much adaptation" just because it fit with your narrative.

Broly was knocking back Gogeta after 2 hits! Yet you are trying to convince me that Broly randomly grew 10 times stronger the moment he had eyes on Gogeta. This is silly at best.

All your argument is deflecting fact and muh " purely graphic add-o" and muh "ashtualy"

Not once you adressed these points:

-Why does SS Broly have green aura

-Why does SS Broly have huge body

-Why does SSFP have Green hair

-Why did his eyes turned back yellow if his original eyes color is black.

Give me your headcanon for each of these points please.

 

[Dragomer]

No, he couldn't, because he didn't write the ******* story, the story said it was SSJ so he had no say in the matter but he could give Broly his iconic look.

Kale's form isn't LSSJ at all and yes, it's pretty obvious you don't care about official information and the canon fact, they're lying headcanon anyway and you know the real truth, right ? not headcanon at all.

It's such a false analogy we had Goku himself telling us directly it does make you mad to the point he had to tell his son he wouldn't be able to control himself.

I know what you were talking about.

No, the movie constantly told you 'shit, Broly is getting stupidly strong by the second'.

His 'adaptation' (he's just getting stronger, not really adaptation) took him far enough to push Gogeta to SSJB, that's pretty obvious.

No, all my argument is 'look at the official ******* info that directly state that he is using SSJ, not some buslhit headcanon cumulation of every form ever'.

I actualy did, how about you read my comments instead of screaming about everything actualy canon is a lie ?

the answer to all of those is : to look like LSSJ Broly from movie 8, which was directly stated to have been added purely for the look.

Keep complaining about headcanon while screeching about how everything actualy official is a lie and that only you know the truth about the LSSJ 1 2 3 4 Oozaru green ultra instinct combinaison form, the actual DB franchise will go with the form being Full Power Super Saiyan and Ikari being a seperate inferior transformation that doesn't stack, like every other transformation.