Dragon Ball Super Discussion Thread 85

[ArgosaxDespair]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zRvNaDHMNWQ

Watch this

Tbh, I find this kind of video funny. It doesn't matter for how long you train, if the plot demands your downfall or rise, you'll get that. At the beginning of the Universe 6 arc, Vegeta says that he and Goku are at their limits in response to Goku asking him to train. Some episodes later: training to beat the shit out of Black. An arc later: Jumping from 3-A to Low 2-C via breaking limits and literally saying that a Saiyan has no limits.

The same thing can be said about Future Trunks and Gohan. They only progress as the plot demands.

 

[PFM18]

Well, my thread was locked for no reason so I am going to continue my reply to @AKM Sama here.

Posting a massive wall of text isn't debunking. Argumentum ad nauseum and verbosium isn't debunking. I already addressed all of the same points in my earlier comment and if you're hellbent on being wilfully ignorant and stubborn then I can't repeat the same things again and again.
Yeah of course not. But debunking your arguments, is in fact debunking your arguments.Obviously just saying a lot of stuff is not debunking your argument, but I had to post the entire dialogue, which makes much longer, because you kept lying about it. I mean, your entire argument is based on things that are simply factually untrue:

-You claim that Beerus had, previously in the fight, had explicitly questioned Goku's limits, so him raging out only at the end would be nonsensical. This is false, because the dialogue I posted proves that the only time he questioned Goku's limits was in the final scene. So, this was just based on a lie.

-You claim that the final scene mirrored previous scenes, where Goku says "Not yet!" then immedaitely becomes stronger. This is false, Goku says "Not yet!" and then nothing happens, AND THEN Beerus questions his limits, and ONLY THEN does Goku overpower the SoD. It distinctly contrasts previous scenes, not mirrors them.

-That the scene has him smiling while he explains this to Beerus. This is false, when he delivers the line he is clearly stern and serious/mad/irritated, hence the crinkled eyebrows/eyes.

At this point, it isn't even a matter of interpretation, you're just not correct about the details of the scene.
Yes very convenient. Let's keep ignoring the fact that Goku was smiling before and after that line . Let's ignore that he had a calm tone throughout the dialogue and also ignore the blatantly obvious fact that he was struggling to speak properly because of the physical pai that made his eyebrows like that, even after he was smiling when he finished his dialogue
Did I ever dispute that he smiled? No, I did not. Did you even read my post that you're responding to? He smiled, after proving Beerus wrong, and then explains why he is angry in the scene. That's the literal presentation of the scene. It could not be more clear, with the zoom-in sequence, the ways his eyes and eyebrow crinkled, emphasizing that when he delivered the line he was clearly irritated/angry.

Yeah he was obviously in pain, which is exactly why he fell asleep after he finished talking. It truly shows how poor your argument is, that you claim the framing of the scene is to emphasize that he was hurt. It's obvious he was hurt, why the **** would that be given so much emphasis? Is that a compelling plot point?? The sequence was emphasizing that he was angry, explaining why he was so enraged just moments prior. He got enraged, and then the conversation was simply explaining WHY he was so angry, with the choreography being used to emphasize this. Not, in some convoluted way, emphasizing that....he was hurt when he was making casual conversation with Beerus for no particular reason, "politely."

And hence, Base Goku "absorbing SSG into Base" and being stronger than BoG SSG going forward from BoG is false.

 

[PFM18]

Are we sure the SSG multiplier is the same for example the first time opposed to currently? Considering Goku absorbed SSG power.
I agree with that, I think the multiplier is different.

 

[ZERO7772]

Yeah it can't be that huge anymore.

 

[BlackeJan]

I'm sure the multiplier is the same, it's just that majority of the characters that fought SSG is just that strong (realistically they shouldn't)

Don't also let's it distract u from the fact that if Goku every abosrbed SSG, then he would had gotten clapped by Base Cabba

 

[Shubham_Sonsurkar]

I pretty sure base Goku can beat him even before achieving SSG

 

[BlackeJan]

Vegeta stated that Base Cabba was pretty much on par with his base (Vegeta also absorbed SSG into base thanks to Whis training) and during that time

Base Vegeta = Base Goku

 

[Shubham_Sonsurkar]

Well... Toriyama does not care about power level. Plus they should have altered this in anime version as this is basically from the Manga and Manga Vegeta nor Goku absorbed SSG in base.

 

[BlackeJan]

Acutally....in the manga they did

This was from the Revival of F manga

 

[Shubham_Sonsurkar]

I mean they didn't absorbed SSG in base

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Then how did a base Vegito Casually blew up half of Fusion Zamasu?

 

[PFM18]

Vegeta stated that Base Cabba was pretty much on par with his base (Vegeta also absorbed SSG into base thanks to Whis training) and during that time
Base Vegeta = Base Goku

absorbed into Base? The absorption occurred with Goku when he was SSJ.

 

[BlackeJan]

I mean they didn't absorbed SSG in base

That image i posted above is that Goku indeed absorbed SSG into his base

 

[PFM18]

I mean they didn't absorbed SSG in base

That image i posted above is that Goku indeed absorbed SSG into his base

No, he didn't. That image is from the promotional manga for the RoF DBZ Movie, the actual DBS manga skipped that arc entirely. The "absorbed into Base" premise is movies-only.

 

[MonzyMonz]

Then how did a base Vegito Casually blew up half of Fusion Zamasu?

Vegito was never nerfed in the manga, he's just that strong.

 

[Ryukama]

https://twitter.com/raineyovalle/status/1035937018029793280?lang=e

 

[DragonEmperor23]

lmfao

 

[Peter1129]

Vegito was never nerfed in the manga, he's just that strong.

In the manga Future Zamasu was a fodder who wasn't even SSG lvl while in the anime he was actually somewhat comparable to early Future Trunks Saga SSB. Goku Black also wasn't ridiculously more powerful than Goku and Vegeta like the anime, in the manga he was only a bit stronger. Due to this Manga Fusion Zamasu is much weaker than Vegito. While in the anime they are roughly comparable.

 

[Ionliosite]

Lol toyo isn't toei who could give two ***** about consistency or powerscaling

Implying the powerscaling is all that consistent on the manga >->

 

[Omegas03]

Wasn't Base Black implied to be above SSJ3 Goku but then SSJ2 Vegeta stomped his SSJ? Then Black REs and his SSJ2 holds an upper advantage over Vegeta's Blue, I am sure that's worse than anything the Anime did in that Arc considering the only a**pull was SSJ Rage lolol

 

[Peter1129]

In the manga Vegeta trained with Trunks before fighting Black. That's probably why SS2 Vegeta > SS1 Goku Black. Although even than the difference wasn't too big as Black could still keep up with and block attacks from him. But yeah SS2 Goku Black beating up SSB Vegeta after just one zenkai was really bs.

 

[Omegas03]

Vegeta getting an ~200× increase by training with Trunks is also kinda BS tbh.

Considering SSJ2 Vegeta > SSJ Black > Base Black > SSJ2FP Trunks and SSJ3 Goku >(×400) Base Goku.

Base Vegeta could have been stronger than SSJ3 Goku from what we know haha.

 

[Peter1129]

I mean compared to something like Gohan becoming 3-A with a few days of training against Piccolo in both the anime and manga or SS2 Goku Black becoming SSB Lvl after one zenkai it's really not that bs.

 

[PFM18]

Wasn't Base Black implied to be above SSJ3 Goku but then SSJ2 Vegeta stomped his SSJ? Then Black REs and his SSJ2 holds an upper advantage over Vegeta's Blue, I am sure that's worse than anything the Anime did in that Arc considering the only a**pull was SSJ Rage lolol

The manga just kind of arbitrarily has:

SSJ2 Vegeta>SSJ Black>Base Black>SSJ3 Goku

And there isn't even much of an explanation given for it. It's just ******* stupid.

 

[BlackeJan]

Y'all remember that rage boost SSJ2 Vegeta got when Beerus slapped Bulma? apparently in the manga, he learned to use that power against Black hence why he was beating the shit out of him before the zenkai

 

[PFM18]

Y'all remember that rage boost SSJ2 Vegeta got when Beerus slapped Bulma? apparently in the manga, he learned to use that power against Black hence why he was beating the shit out of him before the zenkai

That's never stated or implied at all. That's just the head canon that manga apologists use to rationalize it.

 

[BlackeJan]

Just saying bro. Well that's what was said in the DBZ wiki

 

[ArgosaxDespair]

Unfortunately the DB wiki mixes non-canon material with canon, we don't know where the Vegeta claim comes from

 

[HST_Master]

I mean compared to something like Gohan becoming 3-A with a few days of training against Piccolo in both the anime and manga or SS2 Goku Black becoming SSB Lvl after one zenkai it's really not that bs.

Gohan was training throughout, it just wasn't really given any real attention until the USS. Like for example when they go to recruit Piccolo for the U6 vs U7 tournament, or when Trunks was leaving for the alternate timeline.

 

[PFM18]

Just saying bro. Well that's what was said in the DBZ wiki

The DBZ wiki says a lot of unsubstantiated things. It is simply an inconsistency and nothing more. Nothing suggests that the BoG scene had permanently changed the essence of Vegeta's SSJ2 form.

 

[AKM sama]

https://twitter.com/raineyovalle/status/1035937018029793280?lang=e

I wish I could give more Kudos

 

[PFM18]

Apparently people on this site are very stubborn about the whole Base Goku>BoG SSG thing, even if it doesn't hold much water, but the idea of Piccolo being universal at least needs to be addressed.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

Apparently people on this site are very stubborn about the whole Base Goku>BoG SSG thing, even if it doesn't hold much water, but the idea of Piccolo being universal at least needs to be addressed.

Fam. Is this all you ever talk about?

 

[Mulgara]

[File:1ygLBc0.jpg]Here's proof Jiren is stronger then all Gods.

And proof Goku might of possibly surpassed Beerus when he went UIO3 (And Goku gets stronger when he goes UI Omen throughout his fight with Jiren)

It was the MUI in the 129 - 130, even Hermes wasn't sure and made the wrong presupposition.

 

[PFM18]

Fam. Is this all you ever talk about?

Yes.

 

[PFM18]

It was the MUI in the 129 - 130, even Hermes wasn't sure and made the wrong presupposition.

That's no longer relevant. That was a simple episode guide in which it claims that is dialogue that is said in the episode. It says that Beerus(?) says that in the episode, but he didn't, so it holds no weight because it was obviously changed.

 

[Mulgara]

It was the MUI in the 129 - 130, even Hermes wasn't sure and made the wrong presupposition.

That's no longer relevant. That was a simple episode guide in which it claims that is dialogue that is said in the episode. It says that Beerus(?) says that in the episode, but he didn't, so it holds no weight because it was obviously changed.

That was because what Beerus said was replaced in the anime, not that it holds no weight at all. If it really wasn't relevant, he wouldn't have said anything at all relating to that matter.

 

[PFM18]

It was the MUI in the 129 - 130, even Hermes wasn't sure and made the wrong presupposition.

That's no longer relevant. That was a simple episode guide in which it claims that is dialogue that is said in the episode. It says that Beerus(?) says that in the episode, but he didn't, so it holds no weight because it was obviously changed.

That was because what Beerus said was replaced in the anime, not that it holds no weight at all. If it really wasn't relevant, he wouldn't have said anything at all relating to that matter.

....he didn't say anything at all related to the matter. The episode features no dialogue where Beerus makes any kind of comment like that. They obviously changed their mind if the line does not actually appear in the episode.

 

[ArgosaxDespair]

A magazine said that, it shouldn't be treated as anything other than opinion. The only thing we know for sure is: Enraged MUI > Burning Ultimate Warrior > MUI > Base FP Jiren > All GoDs

 

[Mulgara]

It was the MUI in the 129 - 130, even Hermes wasn't sure and made the wrong presupposition.

That's no longer relevant. That was a simple episode guide in which it claims that is dialogue that is said in the episode. It says that Beerus(?) says that in the episode, but he didn't, so it holds no weight because it was obviously changed.

That was because what Beerus said was replaced in the anime, not that it holds no weight at all. If it really wasn't relevant, he wouldn't have said anything at all relating to that matter.

....he didn't say anything at all related to the matter. The episode features no dialogue where Beerus makes any kind of comment like that. They obviously changed their mind if the line does not actually appear in the episode.

Which is why we came to the conclusion that it was replaced (it was also proven too). The replacement quote was at the 129 towards 130 in which he stated "What an amazing guy" instead of the line that he was supposed to say.