Dragon Ball Super Discussion Thread 85

[AwkguyDB]

I just rewatched and I see why SSJB Goku rivals SSJBE Vegeta XD so then

huh?

Sorry couldn't finish my thought because the idea of Episode 131 with Base Goku taking on Jiren making sense with SSJ Goku > SSJG Vegeta in th movie

I meant to say "...so then I agree with your scaling."

 

[AwkguyDB]

I mean the move kinda implies Base Goku >= SSG Vegeta.

This makes sense but I feel it's safer to just go with Goku being far stronger than Vegeta for now. Otherwise we end up with FP SSJ Broly being billions of times baseline which I'm a bit uncomfortable with .

Thats just scary.

 

[AKM sama]

When did SSB Goku ever match SSBE Vegeta?

 

[Planck69]

Thats just scary.

Actually, let's see what would happen. Going with my previous lowball for Super Saiyan God, Goku would be 2000 times stronger than Vegeta. The latter was around 80 times baseline Low 2-C by the end of the ToP as a SSBE (I'll assume that he would be on par with an immediate Post-UIO2 SSB KKx20). He should have gotten his SSB to that level in those 3 months of training (not the craziest gains in such a short amount of time).

So Broly Saga SSB Goku would be 160,000 times baseline. Base Gogeta would be this strong at the very least. Going again with FP SSJ Broly being far superior to SSG Gogeta, that leaves us with:

160,000 x 50 x 2 x 4 x 5= 3,200,000,000 times baseline.

Huh, what do you know?

 

[Peter1129]

That's not even that bad. Like when DBS first ended I messed up the scaling a bit and accidentally got something like a couple billion to trillion times baseline Low 2-C. But after looking back at it at most the strongest DBS Low 2-Cs should be in the million to billion times baseline if we assume all the other transformations that don't have an accepted multiplier on the site (SS2, SS3 and SSG) is just 2x and Goku is vastly stronger than Vegeta in the Broly Saga.

 

[ZERO7772]

Post-UIO2 SSB Goku was doing just as well against both Anilaza and later on FP Base Jiren as SSBE Vegeta (albeit both were barely doing much to the latter) during the ToP. Consider that, the zenkai boosts from the third Omen and true UI and the three month training that would have make him even stronger. Now consider how Ikari Broly was keeping up with SSB Goku and the fact that Gogeta was capable of holding his own against SS Broly who's at least 40 times stronger than before.

Base Gogeta is definitely stronger than ToP SSBE Vegeta, going by scaling (which is insane to be honest).

Goku didn't get any boost from achieving 3rd Omen and UI we have no proof of that. Goku and Vegeta are comparable, meaning Blue vegeta should relative to Blue Goku and Base Gogeta scale to that level.

Blue Goku was goin in and out of his Kaio-ken and he didn't do any better than Vegeta, heck, Jiren was actually more impressed with Vegeta than he was with Goku despite the former fighting him with a x20 Kaioken.

I don't like to creat headcanon to justify my narrtive. Blue Goku in broly is stronger than first Omen Goku and that's all we know.

 

[AwkguyDB]

It appears that Base Jiren hit SSJBE Vegeta with an attack so powerful it knocked him out of SSJBE meanwhile Jiren charged up an even stronger attack against SSJBKK Goku and it only knocked him back down to Blue.

That might be relevant to the argument. Also can we at least give 17 an applaud for taking an attack that was meant for SSJBE Vegeta?

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

NO! 17 was having trouble with base Toppo.

 

[ZERO7772]

It appears that Base Jiren hit SSJBE Vegeta with an attack so powerful it knocked him out of SSJBE meanwhile Jiren charged up an even stronger attack against SSJBKK Goku and it only knocked him back down to Blue.

That might be relevant to the argument. Also can we at least give 17 an applaud for taking an attack that was meant for SSJBE Vegeta?

Jiren knocks out Goku out of Blue with a casual kick BEFORE he even powered up. Not really an argument.

No. #17 is weaker than Base Toppo.

 

[AKM sama]

That's not an argument. We also see 17 fighting equally with both of them in the same scene, it doesn't mean all of them are equal. It just means Jiren used more power against SSBE Vegeta than he did against SSB Goku. Or it means a minor inconsistency, like the one where all the fighters who were at unequal levels were fighting Anilaza. SSBKKx20 Goku = SSBE Vegeta.

 

[CryoTheMayo]

Didn't Vegeta heavily drain his power when using Final Explosion? It could just be argued that he had less energy to maintain SSBE at the time than Goku had to maintain SSB.

 

[AKM sama]

Not to mention the attack Jiren used against Goku didn't even hit his body head on.

 

[ZERO7772]

Jiren was also more impressed by Vegeta's attacks judging by his comments through the fights.

 

[AwkguyDB]

Didn't Vegeta heavily drain his power when using Final Explosion? It could just be argued that he had less energy to maintain SSBE at the time than Goku had to maintain SSB.

Literally Jiren goes FP at the start of Episode 127. Meaning Jiren Ep 127 > Anything in episodes prior. Why would he power up if U7 was weaker than when he fought them before?

 

[CryoTheMayo]

...and why would Goku, Vegeta and 17 suddenly be so much more powerful that it would warrant Jiren needing to power up? Goku and 17 have no impetus or indication of it. Only Vegeta would have grown any stronger (his power being stated to rise against Toppo) but this is contradicted by Vegeta nearly dying from Final Explosion and being knocked out of SSBE, when Goku wasn't knocked out of SSB.

In the video you link, Jiren even specifically notes Vegeta is wounded. 17, who spent the entire fight against Toppo focusing on evasion and unable to do a damned thing, felt the need to even block an attack for SSBE Vegeta. 17 even intercepted Jiren's blow, that Vegeta couldn't properly react to, from a further distance.

Jiren was even fighting SSB Goku and 17 at the same time that SSBE Vegeta was fighting him, he didn't even show any surprise or difficulty until Goku approached him from behind, and he easily knocked SSBE Vegeta away to deal with Goku, who went KK.

If you pay even the slightest hint of attention in the fight, it's blatant that SSBE Vegeta was constantly on the losing end of the fight, that 17 felt compelled to intercept and block blows for Vegeta and that KK Goku Blue was pushing and fighting Jiren much harder than Vegeta was.

The only hint of respect or surprise Jiren displays towards Vegeta's strength, was him stating he 'I can see why you were able to defeat Toppo' and that's it.

Ultimately, 17 and Goku were far more impressive than Vegeta against the powered up Jiren, have way better feats and didn't have their wounds or power drain be explicitly stated as a concern in-universe in the context of this fight.

Now, I'm not claiming for a second that KK Goku Blue is SUDDENLY stronger than SSBE Vegeta or that 17 should scale anywhere close to Post-UIS2 Goku and SSBE Vegeta. Fact of the matter is, Vegeta was heavily drained and injured and this fight was filled to the brim with absurd outliers.

 

[ZERO7772]

Cryo went text walls mod at last.

 

[AwkguyDB]

...and why would Goku, Vegeta and 17 suddenly be so much more powerful that it would warrant Jiren needing to power up? Goku and 17 have no impetus or indication of it. Only Vegeta would have grown any stronger (his power being stated to rise against Toppo) but this is contradicted by Vegeta nearly dying from Final Explosion and being knocked out of SSBE, when Goku wasn't knocked out of SSB.
In the video you link, Jiren even specifically notes Vegeta is wounded. 17, who spent the entire fight against Toppo focusing on evasion and unable to do a damned thing, felt the need to even block an attack for SSBE Vegeta. 17 even intercepted Jiren's blow, that Vegeta couldn't properly react to, from a further distance.

Jiren was even fighting SSB Goku and 17 at the same time that SSBE Vegeta was fighting him, he didn't even show any surprise or difficulty until Goku approached him from behind, and he easily knocked SSBE Vegeta away to deal with Goku, who went KK.

If you pay even the slightest hint of attention in the fight, it's blatant that SSBE Vegeta was constantly on the losing end of the fight, that 17 felt compelled to intercept and block blows for Vegeta and that KK Goku Blue was pushing and fighting Jiren much harder than Vegeta was.

The only hint of respect or surprise Jiren displays towards Vegeta's strength, was him stating he 'I can see why you were able to defeat Toppo' and that's it.

Ultimately, 17 and Goku were far more impressive than Vegeta against the powered up Jiren, have way better feats and didn't have their wounds or power drain be explicitly stated as a concern in-universe in the context of this fight.

Now, I'm not claiming for a second that KK Goku Blue is SUDDENLY stronger than SSBE Vegeta or that 17 should scale anywhere close to Post-UIS2 Goku and SSBE Vegeta. Fact of the matter is, Vegeta was heavily drained and injured and this fight was filled to the brim with absurd outliers.

I'm not disagreeing with you with the fact that Vegeta wasn't much of an issue for Jiren than say Goku. But what I want to point out is that Vegeta, while wounded, still manage to at least produce power that was comparable to when he fought Toppo.

Jiren even commented:

 

[AwkguyDB]

^This pretty much confirms Vegeta tried to hit Jiren with the same amount of force as he did against Toppo and Jiren telling Vegeta that this power is still not enough.

 

[Omegas03]

But SSJFP Broly is barely stronger than Beerus, why is he so high there?

Btw I don't know why you have DBS Broly SSB Goku stronger than Blue Evolution Vegeta, nothing supports he got 20x stronger from Post ToP to DBS Broly.

 

[CryoTheMayo]

That doesn't mean anything. If someone became much weaker due to energy drain and damage, but could still fight at that level (Around SSB-level), then Jiren could still judge that, hey, this guy's power at its peak could defeat Toppo.

Claiming that Vegeta's power was 'comparable to when he fought Toppo' also wouldn't function as justification for how Vegeta beat him. Vegeta had to use Final Explosion, draining much of his power and having the risk of death, to overpower and defeat Toppo. Time and again in the franchise, we've clearly seen that Ki techniques amplify the power of the user, like Final Flash, Super Kamehameha, etc and the power of Final Explosion was enough to blow Majin Buu into pieces.

Overall, claiming Vegeta is fighting at that level (when 126 and 127 both completely contradict it) based on such a vague statement is silly, in my opinion.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

?

 

[Dragomer]

?

Meh, i see the dragon ball inspiration but the whole paralels between characters don't work at all, the MC is far from being like Goku.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

It could probably be a verse added to the series.

 

[PFM18]

Literally Jiren goes FP at the start of Episode 127. Meaning Jiren Ep 127 > Anything in episodes prior. Why would he power up if U7 was weaker than when he fought them before?

Wtf? No he didn't? What is your basis for that? Jiren got gut punched super hard by 3rd UI Omen, before powering up and overpowering Goku, forcing him into actual UI. Jiren's full-power was not shown until AT LEAST 129, though you could argue it wasn't until the final sequence of 129.

 

[PFM18]

I had SSB Gogeta at 500,000x baseline at best. What sorcery is this?

I am dumb. What exactly do you guys mean by "baseline"?

 

[Planck69]

I am dumb. What exactly do you guys mean by "baseline"?

The minimum power requirement for a tier, which in this case would be Infinite Zamasu for DBS Low 2-Cs.

 

[Omegas03]

I am sure Jiren went FP (talking about Base) when Belmod told him to defeat Goku once for all or when he powered up soo much that his pressure was going to kill all his universe members in the spectator seats, that was Ep 128 IIRC but he definitely wasn't FP at 127 or when he fought the Trio.

 

[Dragomer]

I am sure Jiren went FP (talking about Base) when Belmod told him to defeat Goku once for all or when he powered up soo much that his pressure was going to kill all his universe members in the spectator seats, that was Ep 128 IIRC but he definitely wasn't FP at 127 or when he fought the Trio.

I doubt it, Jiren isn't the type to take order from Belmod to the extent he'd just go full power from a 'hurry up !'

 

[Planck69]

Wtf? No he didn't? What is your basis for that? Jiren got gut punched super hard by 3rd UI Omen, before powering up and overpowering Goku, forcing him into actual UI. Jiren's full-power was not shown until AT LEAST 129, though you could argue it wasn't until the final sequence of 129.

Dude, he went full power when fighting the remaining U7 fighters at Ep. 127. At least, that's what it looks like here. Make of that what you will.

 

[PFM18]

Dude, he went full power when fighting the remaining U7 fighters at Ep. 127. At least, that's what it looks like here. Make of that what you will.

No, he does A power-up, you can't just arbitrarily assume it is his full-power. The 127 level got bodied by 3rd Omen, then he goes on to have a slight edge over 3rd Omen.

 

[PFM18]

The minimum power requirement for a tier, which in this case would be Infinite Zamasu for DBS Low 2-Cs.

....so people are talking about peoppe being 6.4M times stronger than Infinite Zamasu??

 

[Planck69]

....so people are talking about peoppe being 6.4M times stronger than Infinite Zamasu??

Yes, they are. But if you're skeptical of these high numbers (A lot of people are), here's the most absolutely lowballed version:

The Omens have shown to give zenkai boosts. Goku after UIO1 is stronger than before to the point that he can very slightly keep up with surpressed Jiren. Post-UIO2 SSB again somewhat keeps up with Jiren while he's using a lot more of his power. No reason to assume that the third Omen and true UI wouldn't bring up his power as well.

Let's assume that surpressed Jiren is only 2 times stronger than IZ and that the boosts from the Omens are only 4 times over. He'd have gotten a boost from the third Omen and true UI as well (one could argue that the far greater stress placed on his body would have a bigger boost) and gotten even stronger in the 3 months of training and I'll go with 1.5 times as a lowball. So;

4 x 4 x 4 x 1.5= 96 times baseline.

Base Gogeta is keeping up with SS1 Broly who's 40 times stronger than in his Ikari form, which is comparable to SSB Goku. IF we go with Base Gogeta being only a quarter of SS1 Broly's power then we have;

96 x 2 x 40 / 4= 1920 times baseline.

So Gogeta Blue would be about:

1920 x 40 x 2 x 4 x 5 x 40= 122,800,000 times baseline.

 

[PFM18]

Yes, they are. But if you're skeptical of these high numbers (A lot of people are), here's the most absolutely lowballed version:

The Omens have shown to give zenkai boosts. Goku after UIO1 is stronger than before to the point that he can very slightly keep up with surpressed Jiren. Post-UIO2 SSB again somewhat keeps up with Jiren while he's using a lot more of his power. No reason to assume that the third Omen and true UI wouldn't bring up his power as well.

Let's assume that surpressed Jiren is only 2 times stronger than IZ and that the boosts from the Omens are only 4 times over. He'd have gotten a boost from the third Omen and true UI as well (one could argue that the far greater stress placed on his body would have a bigger boost) and gotten even stronger in the 3 months of training and I'll go with 1.5 times as a lowball. So;

4 x 4 x 4 x 1.5= 96 times baseline.

Base Gogeta is keeping up with SS1 Broly who's 40 times stronger than in his Ikari form, which is comparable to SSB Goku. IF we go with Base Gogeta being only a quarter of SS1 Broly's power then we have;

96 x 2 x 40 / 4= 1920 times baseline.

So Gogeta Blue would be about:

1920 x 40 x 2 x 4 x 5 x 40= 122,800,000 times baseline.

bro are you serious??

 

[Planck69]

bro are you serious??

Yes.

 

[JackJoyce]

My scaling chain goes like

SSJB Gogeta > LSSJ Broly >= MUI Goku >= BW Jiren > SSJ Broly > FP Jiren = UIO3 Goku >= Top Tier GoDs > SSJBs of the Broly Movie > SSJBE Vegeta = SSJBKKx 20 Post-UIO2 Goku

There is no evidence if SSJB in the Broly movie is stronger than SSBE Vegeta from TOP

 

[MonzyMonz]

Apparently they only did that to make it look cool and bring nostalgia back. The attack acts and is different that the one from Toeiverse, and until we get a direct confirmation, we can't confirm if it has the same effects because it simply explodes like an ordinary ki blast.

Gogeta smiled after Broly survived the soul punisher, which is basically showing "oh he is not a bad guy"

 

[MonzyMonz]

Goku Base > Vegeta Base

There is no way that Base Goku is stronger then SSJ Vegeta or God Vegeta, if that was true then there would be a statement about Goku being levels beyond Vegeta, and SSJBE is 20x SSJB.

Broly is weaker then Jiren, Broly is possibly stronger then Beerus and Jiren is stronger then all the GoDs in his base.

Imo my scaling would be:

Gogeta Blue > UI Goku > Jiren (Enraged) > UI Goku (when he first appeared) > Jiren (Base) > LSSJ Broly = UI Omen Goku (3rd sign) > Strongest GoD > SSJBE Vegeta (ToP) = SSJBKK x20 Goku (Post UIO2) >= SSJBs in the movie

 

[ZERO7772]

I am sure Jiren went FP (talking about Base) when Belmod told him to defeat Goku once for all or when he powered up soo much that his pressure was going to kill all his universe members in the spectator seats, that was Ep 128 IIRC but he definitely wasn't FP at 127 or when he fought the Trio.
I doubt it, Jiren isn't the type to take order from Belmod to the extent he'd just go full power from a 'hurry up !'

Jiren took order from Belomod like 3 times during the tournament.

1-Belmod was the one who told Jiren to go after Goku in the first place in episode 127.

2-He was the one who told Jiren to finish Goku once and for all in episode 129.

3-He told him to knock out Goku in episode 130 despite Jiren not approving of such method.

Yeah the the writers turned him into a jerk in last few episodes of the ToP but Jiren never stroke me as the disrespectful type before. Both Toppo and Belmod outrank actually.

 

[ZERO7772]

Goku Base > Vegeta Base

There is no way that Base Goku is stronger then SSJ Vegeta or God Vegeta, if that was true then there would be a statement about Goku being levels beyond Vegeta, and SSJBE is 20x SSJB.

Broly is weaker then Jiren, Broly is possibly stronger then Beerus and Jiren is stronger then all the GoDs in his base.

Imo my scaling would be:

Gogeta Blue > UI Goku > Jiren (Enraged) > UI Goku (when he first appeared) > Jiren (Base) > LSSJ Broly = UI Omen Goku (3rd sign) > Strongest GoD > SSJBE Vegeta (ToP) = SSJBKK x20 Goku (Post UIO2) >= SSJBs in the movie

JIREN .IS. ONLY. STRONGER. THAN. BELMOOD.

There is absolutely no way Goku would surpass Beerus without the story mentioning it after he was a goal point for such a long time.

 

[Planck69]

JIREN .IS. ONLY. STRONGER. THAN. BELMOOD.

There is absolutely no way Goku would surpass Beerus without the story mentioning it after he was a goal point for such a long time.

Is your only argument seriously that the plot demands it and therefore it shall be? There's no way that Beerus would still be stronger than Jiren and Goku at this point without being able to go to town on all of the GoDs with minimal effort. Not to mention how Belmod is already implied to be on par with if not stronger than Beerus. There's also the various sources that imply that Goku is above Beerus (whether this is UI or Third Omen they're talking about, I'm not sure).

The story being better is no argument for the tiering of a character.